Marcus Bratton-“Discipled to Shepherd”

In this episode, I sit down with Pastor Marcus Bratton. He serves as the Youth Pastor at Christ Community Church. However, his spiritual walk started from thinking he would ever step into the role of a shepherd.

 From asking challenging biblical questions as a teen, to learning apologetics, then being a missionary in Utah, the Lord has brought Marcus on an amazing discipleship journey. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:31

All right. Well, thank you again for tuning in to Aspire Ministries. Today we have the pleasure of having Marcus, Pastor Marcus, the youth pastor at our church, Christ Community Church. Marcus, say hello.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Hello, hello. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah, thank you for coming on down. We actually just had not too long ago our pastor, Dr. Rick Roadheaver. He got embarrassed when I said the doctor part. He didn't like that. He's like, oh, I guess that gets mentioned sometimes. But uh, you know, we've gotten to know each other a little bit um since you came back, um, which we'll get into where you came back from and what you were doing, but uh and um assume the role of the of youth pastor at our church, um, which you've been doing just an amazing job. Everybody says you're doing a great job.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

That's good to hear. Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Uh, but you've been you've been in this role for how long now?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

It's uh about a year and two months. So I'm pretty fresh. Pretty fresh.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Oh, so cool. So just we have somebody that's been in the ministry, Rick, 38 years, and then you just over a year in an official pastoral role at a church. So this is gonna be cool hearing two very different kind of bookends almost. Yeah. So that's gonna be cool. Um, Marcus, how old are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

I'm 31.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

31 man. Prime. You're married?

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Four years, four years married to uh jewels.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Yep, my beautiful wife, Julia. And she goes by jewels as well. Jules. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

I've always heard you say jewels.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, that's how I just that's what I've always heard you say. Um, and no kids.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Not yet.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So it's just you guys and ministry running hard together.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

And she's a school teacher.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

She's school teacher. Uh public, private, charter. What's she doing?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Uh she does public. She teaches in uh Saddleback Unified. So she's doing a combo class right now, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

What what ages?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Uh second and third grade. So that's fun. Two lesson plans a day. Really? Classroom management is insane because it's you know different age groups and different maturity levels. But she's a trooper, she's doing well.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Wow, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Very cool. Good on her, though. She's a legend. Wow. That's a lot of work. Okay. Um, well, let's dive into some stuff. All right.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

All right. So uh let's start at the beginning. Home life. Was this a um Jesus loving home? Were you raised this way? Where did you grow up? Yeah, what was home life like growing up?

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Um, I was I was born into a a family of um, well, I guess it'll depend on if they listen to this. I don't know. Uh so my both my parents were raised in Christian households. Okay. And they um, I'll just say they were like the rebellious kids. Okay. They were like a little bit more uh free flowing, doing their own thing, you know, didn't really have the most positive church experiences as well. Um I don't think it was any fault to my grandparents. Both my both my grandparents, uh each set were just really great, amazing servants uh for the church and for the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Uh the Sith Lord. Little inside joke there.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Yeah, that's legendary. Wait, which one? Like um Darth Vader or Sidious or uh Darth Bain? Like we can be.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Your grandfather dresses up as uh Emperor. Yeah, he's he's I've seen the pictures.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yeah, it's legendary.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, and you were Lando, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Lando Calaresian, yes, sir. Dude.

unknown 4:25

Dude.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Had a mascara mascara mustache until I could grow my own. Dude.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

You're you're when your grandfather showed me those pictures, yeah, automatic legend sticker was put on him.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Indeed. So good. And while he was dressing up like that, he was serving as an elder at our church a long time ago as a lay guy. Um love it, dude. Yeah, but long story short, I was uh uh yeah, I was born into a tumultuous circumstance, I guess you could say. Um but I think all things considered, my parents did a really good job with what they had and with their experiences and just like the season of life that uh they had me and like where we lived. So it was in the inland empire, I lived in Ontario. Um and yeah, church was one of those things that was like Christmas and Easter for us.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

And it was here and there. But with that, my grandfather, Darth Sidious, as we just mentioned, um, he would do one-on-ones with all of his grandkids. He'd like to take us to Starbucks and like do Bible studies with us.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

And at what age did that start for you to grandkids?

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Gosh, I think it was so early. Because I remember so my parents split up when I was in third grade and we moved in with my grandparents. Which is that was fourth grade for me.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Which is where do they live in Mission View, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah. So we lived there for a couple of years before my parents got back together and moved to Arizona. Got it. So for those three to four years, my grandpa living with him, we would go to like Starbucks every once in a while, and he'd do like uh an accountability thing with me. And there's like a checklist of like listening to mom and dad and like doing homework and whether or not you were watching porn and all these different things. And at the last question always got to me, which answer did you lie about? And I was like, oh man, this is crazy. Like starting at fourth grade. Well, I don't know if it started there. I just have memories of starting those kinds of meetings where I was being held accountable for whatever I should be held accountable from the age of fourth grade on, you know? Wow. Yeah, it was really interesting. And I remember in middle school, maybe the more mature conversation started then. But and it wasn't like he would ever quote like chapter and verse. He was just lovingly sharing the truth of God's word without telling me it was the truth of God's word. So he was modeling for me just a Christ-like um mentality, moral, and so on. And family gatherings were very, you know, I would just say God focused, like Christmas and Thanksgiving. My grandfather would give a message and pray, and everyone else in my family, so like my aunts and their husbands and their kids, pretty consistently just faithful, church-going Christian folk, you know? Yeah. So my family, my siblings and I were kind of like the the odd kids with like the jacked-up home life and didn't go to church very much. So whenever like religion got talked about, we were like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Well, anyway, you know. So is that how it was when your grandfather would do this? Was it kind of just let's get this over with, or what did you have a respect for those conversations of an admiration, or was it more like, all right, grandpa, let's get this over with?

SPEAKER_03 7:46

It's kind of a a weird thing. Um I loved that there was uh a man speaking into my life, but I didn't really appreciate and or enjoy the topics, if that makes sense. So I loved spending time with my grandpa one-on-one. Yeah. Because my dad was again, he did his best with what he had and with everything going on with his whole life and you know, his father's situation, it kind of tends to repeat itself. But all that to say, I loved spending time with my grandpa, and um I don't really remember anything that he taught me about you know the scriptures, if you will. Yeah. In the sense that it was something that went in one ear and out the other. And in God's providence, it wasn't something that really started to pluck on my heartstrings until later, and it was all in his timing. But I just remember really appreciating the one-on-one time that my grandpa would do with me, and knowing that he cared so much about all his grandkids because he would do that with all of us.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

How many grandkids does he have?

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Uh now it's nine, but at the time there was when I was older, let's see, there's six of them.

SPEAKER_07 8:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Yeah. And to this day, there's still meetings. Like I still get lunch with my grandpa every Thursday.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Do you really?

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Yeah, and we talk about whatever it is he's going through and what Bible study he's teaching at Costa del Sol and with the old folks, and just how Grammy's doing and all that stuff. So I really I cherish, I cherish my um relationship with my grandfather so much. And uh what do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Because how your grandfather, how old is he? 87. What?

unknown 9:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

There's so many people uh at that age that just kind of coast and say, kind of been there, done that, and they just kind of are there. What keeps him what keeps the fire? What keeps him going, you think? Why doesn't he just kind of coast?

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Um the way I've heard him discuss like his convictions are uh his passion is for discipleship. So I I know that he doesn't coast because he knows he could. I know he doesn't coast because um he doesn't feel as if you know this is his responsibility. I think he's just passionate for equipping young men to be men of God. You know, because he's not just meeting with his grandkids, too. There's multiple men at the church that he's still meeting with at 87, going through books, and like there's one guy. When I was a junior high leader years ago, he was one of my junior high students, and he's gone through like 15 books with this kid because as soon as he graduated high school, walked to him at a men's breakfast and said, Hey, let's get together, and it's been like six years. It's crazy. So he's just one of those guys. Like, you know, like we just had uh the unfortunate passing of a guy named Gary Wood at our church. He's like Gary, and Gary was like him, and these these you know, Gary was on his deathbed thinking about people he was discipling, you know. And I think my grandpa is he's of the same elk. He's uh he's just passionate about young men having positive spiritual role models in their life, and uh all for the glory of God and the good of his people. It's just yeah. So a lot of a lot of who I am today, maybe even the majority of who I am today, I can credit my grandfather for. So you told him that? Yeah, every every week. Do you really literally every week? I tell him, man, I'm getting emotional. Cause he is old and I've been thinking about him dying, full disclosure. Sure, you know. So I'm like really capitalizing on the time that we have, and I'm like so bummed out. Like if he if he can't meet one week, I'm like, come on, we gotta make this count. Yeah. But that's having a very temporal mindset, not an eternal one, because I know we're gonna spend eternity together. Sure. Worshiping the Lord. But but yeah, um I try to make sure that I'm very uh encouraging to him because he is he's not like an emotional guy, but words of affirmation is definitely one of his loves love languages, if you will, if I could use that Cory thing. Um and he can be uh uncertain sometimes, and I think he is one that has spoken so much into people's lives by way of encouragement um I know he's not always getting that. So as a grandson who knows him and I lived with him for seven years too, so that's a big deal. Um, and that was after I moved out of my parents' house. Um so I just know sometimes he's not insecure, but he's uncertain. How am I doing? What's going on? Am I making an impact? And I just want to be able to speak into that and encourage him. And I think part of that may keep him keep him going, you know, he has so much to live for objectively, but then subconsciously or experientially, we always have certain things that we latch on to, and because it's so important to him, I think it would be foolish for me to not uh uh uh encourage and praise and uh uh you know fan that flame for him, even at 87. You know, so that's just an important thing in our family.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

What a what a person to be raised by, influenced by and look up to continuously now in your thirties to still have him, yeah. You know, my grandfather was very similar, um, but I lost him when I was going into high school. Um so to have him still there in your 30s, yeah, I can't emphasize enough to cherish that. Um those type of men don't come around very often.

SPEAKER_05 13:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

That's cool.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I mean, I I always from the time I met your grandfather, I knew he was very intentional um with the conversations and the questions that he asks. Because I've sat at the same table during men's breakfast and stuff and men's conferences, and I could tell right away this is just a guy that values pouring into people. Um and just it's just so cool to hear a guy that age still going, still still running the race. Um when most are saying, uh, I'm on the sideline now, I'm just waiting my turn. And he's like, Nah, there's more race to be run, brother. 100%. That's so cool. Yeah. What a man to be attached to.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Yeah. Um He's a blessing. A blessing indeed.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

And so, I mean, this is the guy you lived with for a short period of time when you moved out. And so those those check-ins that you're talking about at Starbucks, those were weekly?

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Uh they weren't when I was younger, they weren't they weren't that often. Okay, gotcha. Um, I think they were like once a month.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Um, and also living with them as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Less frequent less frequent.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Um, but they were consistent, yeah, nonetheless. So like it's like one of the core memories of my childhood.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Like I forgot friends. I forgot like my mom reminded me where I went to elementary school. Like, none of that stuck, but like I can still visually relive the Starbucks on San Juan that doesn't exist anymore. And the brick. Right on the corner there next to the mission, right? Yep, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

That was the Starbucks back in the day.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

It was.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

It was. I was so frustrated when it went away because so much of my memories with my grandfather were there. Yeah. But it's okay. They live on in memory. But yeah, it's uh yeah, I'm so stoked. And my grandma too. My grandma's insane. She is so fantastic, and she is she's always telling me what she's studying, and she has like this really interesting color code system that she uses, and they're part of a bunch of different Bible studies. And and I'll say this too. Both of them are not by any means people who have who've uh come to the point where they think, uh, I've studied. Like I know both of them in their 80s are like there's so much to learn still, and they're still viewing the scriptures as like just uh the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God that is inscrutable and depths beyond compare, like you know, and I really appreciate how that's also being modeled because you can say that and then like never uh try to dig deeper, but they are still learning new things and sharing their new, you know, uh what's the word I'm looking for? Insights. Yeah, that's a good word. They're they're new insights, they're they're new finds in the scripture, they're they're they're golden nuggets that they're still pulling out of the scriptures. It's just again another testament to just the model that they are, not only for me, but for our family and the way that they serve the church.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

And she's a prayer warrior, she's part of the little prayer group that meets every other Monday, and they pray for all of our missionaries. And it was so cool to be a missionary from our church, knowing my grandma was praying with a bunch of other people every Monday. Yeah. Like Monday at 12 would hit, and I'd be like, It's 11 o'clock in California and they're praying for me. This is lit. You know, so both my grandparents are just they're amazing. They're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

So very cool.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Oh man, so it's just I I I very much I learned this from a fellow young pastor many, many years ago, of just attaching yourself to those type of people. Um really, as much as you can.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Because the wisdom they have, yeah, both in the negative parts in life and the positive things of life cannot be emphasized enough.

SPEAKER_04 18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Um so you went from Ontario to living with them. Uh how y how long were you with them?

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Um until sixth grade. Okay, a couple years. And then my mom and dad got back together and they had a place they were renting in Mission Viejo. Okay. And uh still close by. Yeah. And then seventh grade is actually when I went my met my wife at uh at a winter camp that my grandparents paid for me to go to. It was like the first winter camp, and I ran into Julia.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

And this was through Christ Community, right? Yep. Wow. Yep. Okay, so uh you just friendly? How I mean, just set junior high, just kind of junior high camp, or was there an attraction right away?

SPEAKER_03 18:59

Um Julia gives me a hard time for this. She remembers me, but I don't necessarily remember her from that time. Oh, okay. And that's not I'm not trying to say anything by that, yeah, but she remembers that I was holding the door open as people were leaving. And I had a humongous afro at that time. Oh, is there pictures? I think there are somewhere. Oh man, I guess. I don't have any. And I had an afro pick, and she was she was walking out and she said hello, and I pulled my afro pick out, and I said, Would you like to put my afro pick in my hair? And then she put it in her hair, and then she like bluffed, blushed and and ran home and told her mom, apparently. Mom still remembers that conversation. And then um we eventually rekindled, or not rekindled rather, uh, what would it be? Reunited, reintroduced ourselves later on in college.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Yeah. So we just met that one time and then years went by.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Okay. All right. So she remembers this. Was she was she kind of like, oh, who's this guy? Or was it more just caught her off guard with the pick?

SPEAKER_03 20:05

I think she right like she knew who I was because I was friends with um DJ and Betty McAllister. The McAllisters are still members at our church. And uh yeah, so they invited us. They were good friends. My mom and Heather are good friends, so I knew them, so those were my buddies. And so they knew, or she knew rather that I knew them, and we had apparently interacted to some degree during the winter camp. Um, and she remembered a she remember she remembers so much of that, and I don't remember any of it.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Was uh I know you're very close to one of our pastors, Tim.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Was Tim on this trip?

SPEAKER_03 20:45

No, I didn't meet Tim until college when I was 17.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Um, okay, so you met Julia. Um, how long did you stay in Mission Viejo for? Did you move back to Ontario at any point? You stayed in Mission Vejo?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

No, we moved to Arizona. I moved a lot. Okay. Yeah. Um, but yeah, moved to Arizona at the the second half of eighth grade year.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

And that was um, so we moved to this place called Buckeye. Buckeye, Arizona. Buckeye. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Very western.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Very, and it was it was an interesting location too, because like you think with the name Buckeye just be like pure country. And there was a lot of you know, country vibes about it. Like the what was it, like bull riding and horse wrangling or whatever it is that they do in the country. Um, they were part of the high school sports. Really? Yeah, so that was really cool. Okay. But I played football, um, and I stayed there until junior year of high school. And then right after junior here, junior year, we moved back to California and I lived in Rachcucamonga.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Was that was that hard coming back, especially at that age?

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah, at that point I had moved around so much, I was like, business as usual. Oh, okay. So, and like I'm thankful in one regard that. That I got forced to learn how to meet new people, be comfortable in different environments. I every time we moved, I had a new set of friends. Usually it was like two or three that were the homies, and then I'd be like, oh bummer. I gotta move. I'll see you later.

SPEAKER_07 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Um yeah. Um, yeah. So senior year, rancho, and then graduated and moved to Orange County, had a roommate set up, but one of them got arrested and we couldn't afford rent. So then my grandparents were like, You should live with us. So that's when I moved in with my grandparents. And as I'm unpacking one Saturday, they're like, Hey, you don't we don't want to force you, but you should come to church with us tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

And where so right there, where was your faith at that point? I was not a believer. Not a believer. No, I was a wild child. Wild child. So what do you mean by wild child? I had you sought out trouble.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

No. I would say that I wanted to be a good person.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

But what I understood to be a good person was fluid to my environment. So if it was good to, you know, partake of certain things, then I would be good in that sense. Right. And if it was good not to partake in certain festivities, then I would not partake. You're a chameleon. Yes, dude. I was a hypocrite. I was I was swapping masks like crazy. And so much so, like I remember one time my dad like found out that I had like been at a party where alcohol was present and I'm 16, and I was like, don't worry, I won't, I won't do anything. And because my dad had then found out, up to that point, I had been drinking at these football parties. But when my dad found out, I remember there was like the senior graduation. Remember, I'm a junior about to take off. And anyway, long story short, everyone's pressuring me to drink, and I'm like, oh, I don't want to let everybody down to like chug this beer. And I shoved my tongue in the opening and I had it up, looking like I was drinking, but I hadn't actually consumed anything because I was worried that I was gonna get whooped by my father. Because once he knows, he knows. And um, yeah, he had like one belt that he would use, and it was just like so old school.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Thick leather.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Yeah. Oh, did it make a snapping sound? It did, it did, and I think he had his name on it. And then it's like wow. I was like, dang. And I'm not saying by any means that I was abused or anything like that. I appreciate what not sparing the rod does. And actions have consequences, but that's a it depended on who was gonna find out that that was the main thing that determined what I would and would not do.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Were you so are you say that who are you more afraid of, your dad or your mom? Oh, my father.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Okay. For sure. All right. And I'm not not even like just not even afraid, really. Like I respect him. Right. That's what I mean as a father. Um like a good fear. Yeah, but when my mom would be frustrated, you know, she'd chase me around with a wooden spoon and hit my shins or something. Like I wasn't like, like I'd be like blocking it. I'm in high school, you know, it wouldn't even be like a concern. Um, but my father was like, dang, I'm in trouble. This is this this is crazy. Just wait till your dad gets home. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Famous last words.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Yeah. Oof. And yeah. And my dad, like, was a gnarly coach in all of my all my sports, and you know, he got me into football at the age of seven and like followed every game as much as he could be there. He was there. That's cool. Yeah. And my dad's still a huge support. He always asked me about ministry, what's going on. He came and saw me preach for the first time a couple months ago, which was wild. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Dude, praise the Lord. I'm glad, dude. Because obviously most people listening to this don't know how big that room is. It can be intimidating. Terrifying. But you looked calm, cool, and collected, confident in what you were saying, which is the word of God, and there is confidence in that. And you looked like you had done it a hundred times. Wow. So that's props to you, because that's not easy to do. Well thank you. Um and not just your presence there, but the subject matter, you knocked it out of the park. So thank you, Morgan. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Um so sounds like dad gave you good biblical discipline in life. Um, and didn't want you to go down the wrong route. And so he had an instrument to help him with that. Indeed.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Yeah, and he cared so much about us as the kids. He was very uh protective. He taught us a lot of things, he taught us how to be wise and like uh like frugal and fix things yourself. So, like everything I know how to do with a car is because my dad, and you know, I really appreciate how old school my dad was. Oh, and he still is, yeah. So I just had dinner with him for my birthday. It was cool to catch up.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

When was your birthday?

SPEAKER_03 27:22

The 21st of September. Oh, dude, happy birthday. Thank you, thank you. All right. That's when I turned 31. 31. One of the kids in the ministry said, uh, how old are you? Oh, wait, never mind. You're not supposed to ask old people how old they are. And that's when it's the first time in my life. I'm like, all right, I'm old. It is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Oh, I remember one time. This I felt it one time um for a high school winter trip. I rented an Airbnb for a snowboard trip. And so, you know, Airbnb, it's a house, so they had TV and stuff, and uh they have VHS tapes. And these kids are looking through and they're like, what is this? I could feel the gray. Yeah, yeah, it's coming in, dude. It's coming in symbolically today. That hurt. That one, that one really hurt.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

I can identify with you now.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Um and so uh you had this party drinking, not drinking, fake drinking, fake drinking, and the designated driver.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

And we get pulled over on the way home. Oh no. And I have so many drunk people in my car. So I mean, did he did the cop test you?

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Did you get I said don't don't like don't don't even worry about it. Give me the brestalizer. I'm I'm good. And I'm I'm like a block away from my house too. Right. My mom's calling, where are you at? It's before it's it's after curfew. And then she runs down the street in a robe and she gives the cop like a mouthful, like, my boy didn't drink, he's making sure all these people get home safe, blah, blah, blah. You know, and like oh no, yeah. It's just oh boy. I put my parents through it in a lot of ways. And I'm I'm so thankful for them in the ways that they did teach me, and I'm so thankful for the way that they were patient with me. And like at the same time, they knew kind of what was going through my mind and my experience because they also had, you know, their season of doing their thing. And like I said, they did the best with what they got. Um my mom was such a caring and is such a such a caring, protective um mom. And I always think back to that situation where she like ran down the street in her robe to give the cop a mouthful and got me home safe and sound. So and I didn't necessarily do anything wrong, but I did succumb to peer pressure. Yeah, you did, you know? So I cared so much about what people thought. So that actually spoke or that speaks to kind of like my my problem with God. Like, I'm never gonna be good enough for that guy. You know, that was my that was my issue. You know, I've heard all these things about God, and Christians are these kinds of ways. Like, I'm never gonna be like my grandpa. If that's what a Christian is, then I'm like God will never accept me because I'm nothing like my grandpa. This is me at like 16, 17.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

So I'm just where do you think that where the root of that came from?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Oh, I don't know. I don't think I don't look back on my life and think that I was like told to measure up. You know, when I would fail or succeed, my parents were supportive, my family was supportive. Um my dad, he wasn't necessarily like everything had a consequence. Sure, you know, but like grades were important. Yeah. And I didn't do very well in school, so there was always a form of like disappointment there. So measuring up in that sense, perhaps. Um, or like, you know, there would always be consequences for mistakes on the field. So if I dropped the ball, there would always be, you know, some kind of correction necessary or like physical consequence of like doing extra laps or like doing push-ups or something like that. And that was that's how my dad learned discipline. So he was teaching me discipline that way. Um, so I had maybe one way to put it is I had kind of like a works righteousness mindset ingrained just from the way that I worked. Sure. You know? And if I looked good enough, then maybe I was. But if I was honest with myself, I never was, whether that was sports or academics, and especially if it was to this God who's really cool and awesome and perfect and holy and a consuming fire. Yeah, all in one. Cannot dwell at all in the presence of sin.

SPEAKER_05 31:56

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Yeah, I was scared of God, and he was like, uh like he loves my grandpa, but I'm pretty sure he hates me. If that makes sense. That was kind of if I'm trying to reflect, that's pretty much what I could what I could uh summarize my my state.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

So did you so then with that was your mindset of there's nothing I can do about this, so I'm just gonna live how I am gonna live? Was it more of a give God the bird? I don't care. I mean, what was kind of your mindset towards God if that was I could never live up to him? Like he exists.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Right. And he probably doesn't like me, so I'll just be a good person. And that word, again, is flexible based on the circumstances. So with these friends, I act this way, with my family, I'd act this way, and yeah. Um God was just kind of an afterthought. Okay, and at the same time, this overwhelming presence of anxiety inducing fear. If that makes sense. It was like, I was so afraid of you, but if I could pretend like you weren't there, then I I could deal with it, and then I'd be like, oh wait, can't there's a God out there. And mind you, I'm not intellectually convinced. I know nothing about archaeology, textual criticism, I know nothing that would actually make it so intellectually I could ascend to God existing. I don't know anything about the universe, beginning, or any of these things, right? I just my whole life around people that said God was real. My parents said God was real. My dad would randomly quote the Bible, you know, but it was always an interesting out-of-context references, you know. And I didn't know they were out of context. I just thought, oh, okay, the Bible says something about this or that. Yeah. So yeah. And I think that's why I was so confused when I interacted with the scriptures after a long time of living in Arizona away from my grandpa, and I had kind of just like done my own thing for a really long time. So they invite me to church, and that's where I met James Purrington and Blake Parker. James Purrington now lives in Utah. He's a fireman with three kiddos and his lovely wife Danny, and um Alathea, the college Bible study, was at his house.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

And uh Blake, they were really good friends. He's still a member at our church, and his lovely wife Micah. And uh it was a Roman study. I show up, we read Romans 11, and Tim never met him. Reads verse six again, and I'm like, Oh, here we go, Bible stuff. Like I just sat through a whole chapter because Tim would read a whole chapter and then kind of like teach a little bit, and then it was open discussion. And Romans 11, 6 says, if we are saved by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise, grace would not be grace. And I remember being angry. And I remember thinking, What am I being saved from? What the heck is grace? And what are the works one thinks they could do to merit salvation? Like, do I have to be like my grandpa? Do I have to like and what the heck is grace? Yeah, what is this? You know, and I didn't think a lot. I just thrown into this environment. All these biblical terms are being thrown around, and I have no idea what's going on, but I remember being angry. But then Tim Thetford knew that I wasn't a believer, and he kind of invited me to go to lunch, and I was going to Alathea and going to lunch with him, and he was explaining the gospel to me. And we were in Romans. What a good book to be in. Oh, you know, and uh yeah, and Tim Tim led me to the Lord. So June 2012. Yeah. And it was uh it wasn't like a one moment kind of thing. I love the way um I forgot who said it, but it's like starting a walk when you can still see the stars and then realizing the sun's up. Like I haven't heard that one. I didn't it wasn't like a light switch flicked, it was like there was a gradual change, and I I didn't know when it was day, I just knew it was. Yeah, if that makes sense. And that was kind of the experience. And from that point, Tim discipled me like I was his son. I love him so much too. And I'll say this probably a thousand times, but I am the product of men who disciple.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Um there's nothing inherently unique or special about me. Everything that I am today is because of faithful men of God who took discipleship seriously and poured into me. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

I think that's I mean, that's such a strong point that you're making. Let me ask you this. There is there is somebody that I had on recently. Let me ask you this because of what you just said. What is discipleship?

SPEAKER_03 37:09

What is discipleship?

SPEAKER_00 37:11

Because we know let let's just lay it out there. We know what it isn't. It's not a book. Um, and it's not just a class you can attend. Um, so what is it? Because unfortunately, a lot of in church culture that's what it gets dumbed down to.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

But if it's not that, then what is it?

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Um I would describe it as authentic life together interpreted through the scriptures while simultaneously the reality that the scriptures present is the goal you're both attain like striving for. Um in the sense that the discipler is an imperfect entity. Yeah. And for me, uh it was so uh like free not only to experience the good news of the gospel, but then to with the pressure of like, oh, I'm a Christian now, I have to perform certain ways, with all the men sharing their failures, their shortcomings, their need for Christ, just as much, if not more, than my perceived need for Christ. Um so um, and I would also say a facet of discipleship is duplication. Um because it's one thing to disciple someone and it not result in anything, and it's a completely different thing. And I think ideally it is you're duplicating yourself in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

So I would say I'm a product of my father, Bill Temple, Tim Thetford, David Gatskins, Shane Jones, Chip Thompson, Rick Roadheaver, Jesus Kentuck. Those are all individuals that in some way, in some degree, I'm missing Gary Wood, and you know, like there are so many men that I can think of that have for long extended periods of time spoken a difficult truth into my life, called me to holiness, held me accountable, and not just like what'd you do wrong this week, but accountable to just personal study, reading the word. How are you a husband? How are you a single man? How are you using your finance, like every aspect of life? So yeah, discipleship is all-encompassing, and that's why it takes a church.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Because one guy can't cover all the bases. Preach it. So every every church I've been a part of, oh, Rodney Zedeker, oh, the pastor of Ethan Church of the Bible. How could how could I miss him? We have lunch every Thursday too. Thursday is such a special day for me. Praise the Lord. Um, yeah, but anyway, everybody's unique and everybody that pours into someone, I think that person becomes a product of all those people. Totally. You know, and I think that the the negative side of that can happen too, where if you have a bunch of negative influences, you become the product of all that negativity. So um, I am so thankful that the Lord has consistently placed me in circumstances, one, to draw me to himself, to lay the foundation for, you know, not only my need for the gospel, but my my comprehension capacity of looking back and going, Oh, my grandpa was talking about this the whole time. Yeah. But I didn't realize that until I started to study the scriptures and the way that people would develop me and help me and sh uh point out gifts or strengths and weaknesses, just all of it. Every, every single person did some unique thing to um to do what God called them to do, and that was to duplicate themselves in some way. In the same way that Jesus duplicated himself in the twelve, and they have, you know, John to Polycart and so on, you know, there's this sense of keeping the faith. Yeah in in a really cool, beautiful way. All of us can I'm not saying like, you know, like papal primacy or like the authority of the bishops or anything like that, but I am saying that the church exists as disciples of disciple makers that can trace their lineage back to Christ. Right. So that's a really cool thing. And Christ is duplicating uh his little image bears all over the place through the people.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

So I just sent this out to a couple friends today. Edward Kimball. Never heard of him?

SPEAKER_04 41:41

No.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

So this this was cool.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Edward Kimball led D. L. Moody to the Lord. Under Moody's ministry, Wilbur Chapman was saved. Uh Billy Sunday was converted by Chapman's preaching. Through Sunday's preaching, Mordecai Ham was saved. Billy Graham came to Christ at a ham crusade.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Dang.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

You may be unknown, but only eternity will reveal the impact of your ministry.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

That's crazy. How cool is that? That's super cool. Speaking about discipleship.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

And talking about lineage of discipleship. Right? So I have this image of just and we all ha we all do this, right? Of oh, we're not getting to heaven. But I truly have this image of those that discipled us and those my god, Providence Grace that we've discipled welcoming us if they've gone before us, right? And we have no idea who we'll be there. Um it's it's it's it's scary in one sense because the responsibility is large. 100%. But also there's rest and there's very little power that we have. It's through the Holy Spirit through Christ that that power is in. It's not really us, it's just our obedience to that power, right? And the responsibility. Um and so thank you for sharing that because discipleship is so needed and it's but yet it's so lacking in the Western church.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Conversion we see a lot of, if we want to call it that, but discipleship um that's something that uh forced home or work for. We emphasize it. We we tell these church leaders that come for our camps, you know, we're not going down the hill with you, go disciple these people and we pray for them. But, you know, I really hope they take that seriously because having a moment where you're coming to the Lord, amen. Praise God. Let's bust out the tub right now or the lake or the river to be baptized. Amazing. But discipleship is where you really see the the the growth and and who that person can become in Christ. Um and it needs to be so intentional. I think that's part of it is that in today's world we're just not as intentional. That's why guys like your grandfather are so rare.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Um we need to get back to that. We're so busy. Yeah. We're so busy with our own things. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Look up and look at what look at what God's doing through his church. How can you be a part of it?

SPEAKER_04 45:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

What young man, what young lady needs you? Right?

SPEAKER_04 45:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Um, and they're all over if you just look.

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 45:20

It's usually the mundane it's like my favorite thing ever. I don't know who said it, but so much of the the stuff that causes the greatest impact is the slow, steady, what seems to be mundane. Like cause you can do a thousand sermons.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:40

And that's cool. Um, but the mundane aspects of marriage or uh fatherhood or human existence and people seeing that in the mundane, in the little you're faithful. That's because you can be faithful in the big things when everybody's watching, right? Yeah. And the little things, as soon as the faithfulness doesn't exist there, everything's undercut and all of the work is gone. So I think like like lunch or phone calls or you know, living a life that you're calling your disciplee to, like it's the the regular everyday life stuff that I think is a testament to the actual transformation that by God's grace through the church members experience rather than one come to Jesus moment. Yeah. It's it's down the hill. It's off the mountain high. It's um regular old everyday in the Lordship of Christ impacting how you drive, how you speak, how you it's the mundane. It really is the mundane that's uh you know where we all live and it's where our our faith is tested, you know, the most is in the mundane, not in these I mean you might have like a really crazy moment or two, but it's the everyday mundane.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

I mean you think about Jesus does didn't just present himself to the apostles and say, all right, peace out. He lived with them and walked with them and journeyed with them and ate with them for three solid years, discipling them. Oh yeah. He didn't just show up in Boam, no, no, no, he showed up, he presented himself and then continued that journey for three years with them. And that's his that's everything was together. Um I imagine you were leading up to that point of um graduating and everything and moving into your grandparents' house.

SPEAKER_04 47:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

So that was that that the Saturday I moved in was the Saturday I got invited to church. The Sunday I met James and Blake. Right, right, right. And then that Tuesday was Alathia.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

So I imagine on this journey with Tim, your grandfather's very much involved in that.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

He was so excited.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

He's like, tell me more. So I'm like, yo, like, what's grace? Like Tim was telling me about grace, and oh, this is so like saved, save from what? You know, and he's telling me the gospel again and again. And the thing that's so ironic, and I think so much, it gives me peace in my gospel conversations, and especially in Utah, and and even here, just when it seems like someone's blind, it's like they are. Like the Lord needs to open their eyes. Yeah. Or as Martin Luther said, their will is bound and it needs to be freed to then see, right? It's the scales need to be removed from our eyes. We are we are obstinate and our heart is hard, yet the God of this world is blinded the eyes of unbelievers. And it takes a supernatural work of God for it to click, for it to all make sense.

SPEAKER_05 49:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

So I knew or I heard or I remembered aspects of my grandfather's conversations, but it clicked when the gospel became a reality. Yeah. You've been telling me this whole time. And he said, Yeah, I know. You know, and it's like he's rejoicing over the fact that his faithful, mundane labor of getting coffee and going through, you know, a book here and there, like came to fruition. You know?

SPEAKER_00 49:30

You know what's it's you talk about the mundane and just it's a it's kind of like a slow burn process. Oh, yeah. You know what um I've been fascinated by recently?

SPEAKER_04 49:40

What?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Is that in a particular person? Um Joe Rogan. Oh, yes. Very true. Joe Rogan, if you look back, I think he started his podcast in like 09.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

He was ferociously against Christianity, the Bible. He would get upset, mad, yelling. Have you seen that? Wow, no. You should you should go and find it. Like he would get ready to fight if you brought that up and say, this is myths and legends and people writing on animal skins and like just mad. And as the years have progressed, it's the it's been from all the way from that to then just, yeah, it's just whatever. More just definitely dismissive, not so much angry, but just more of annoyed, like, let's move on type thing. Yeah. Every time somebody would bring it up, every time there was a believer on his podcast. To then now, here we are in 2025. Um, so 09 to 25. I'm I'm better at math. I don't know what how long that is, but 16 years. 16 years? See, you're good at math. I'm not. Um 16 years, here we are. He had a back-to-back um I guess Mel Gibson, Catholic, who is um an imperfect believer for sure, but a believer and will speak on it. Yep. And he did. He he preached the gospel in his own way on his podcast. And then he had Wesley Huff. Yeah, who I'm sure you're very familiar with. Yeah, he's he's a legend. The legend.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

And the reports are after Wesley Huff, he started to go to church.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Yep, that's what I heard. That's what I heard. That's crazy. From being obstinate and aggressive.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Crazy, but just speaks into exactly what you're talking about is this slow burn process and and and the gospel continuously being preached and unrelenting. And as the word says, it did not return void.

SPEAKER_04 51:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Um it's amazing. It's shocking. Shocking is the right word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

And then his audience going on that journey with him. Exactly. And I'm sure there's many, many a folk that has kind of followed suit with going to church, being intellectually convinced, and then for themselves, in a way, having the scales removed. Because the reach is insane. It would be foolish for me to say no one other than Joe Rogan has been positively impacted or brought to the Lord. Like that's it's the biggest podcast in the world for the world. So the Godfather. Yeah. So praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Look at him, look at him go.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Dude, look at this.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Yeah, he's so good.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

You know, and what's awesome is just as with all of us, we all have a long way to go. He has a long way to go. Yep. Right? Sanctification is an a whole life journey.

SPEAKER_04 52:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Um, and so you're now living with grand your grandparents, you're being discipled at church, you're getting around all these men that you've mentioned. Um, I mean, it must feel like an oasis of just discipleship and learning and being in the Bible and all of this. Um You're going correct me if I'm wrong, but you're going to saddle back. Yep. Playing football. Playing football. And so what kind of comes next after this?

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Um I honestly can't remember if I got approached to be a junior high leader or if I was like, oh, you need help? I can help. Okay. But I started um so two years later, I got baptized. I my whole baptism thing was also like a huge, I'm not good enough for it yet. So there was immaturity there. I didn't understand exactly like oh, I gotta clean myself up first before God rinses me off, kind of thing. Um, and my view on baptism has developed quite a bit since then, obviously. But sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

Were you baptized at Christ Community Church?

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Yeah, Tim baptized me.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:01

I was very have a I have a picture of us ho hugging in that baptismal that's still there today.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:07

Um and I'll just pause. And if you're listening, obviously you've heard a lot about Christ Community Church. Holy moly! Like so much, like winter camp and then volunteering and then getting baptized there and then full circle serving here. It's wow, what a what a wild, you know, like journey, dude. Goodness gracious, it's crazy. The Lord is good, yeah, he is. Um, but yeah, so I became a junior high leader and I was helping out. So me and Blake Parker actually, maybe it was Blake that told me because he was the leader serving in junior high with Jared Burke. Um, and yeah, I think he may have invited me in, and then I was a leader for a while. I was still going to Alathea, and every once in a while Tim would ask me if I wanted to teach. And you know, it's like three years in now, four years in now. So I think he had waited an appropriate time to see if it was something that, you know, but he liked my questions. He said I was a good thinker. I'm like, okay. And then he's like, you should teach. And then that's when I was like really, for the first time ever genuinely like studying the scripture, you know, and started asking questions of it that I had never asked before. You know, how does this work with that? Is is is James contradicting Paul? And or what is what does this book say about the Lord's Supper? What does this book say about baptism? What does this book say about works righteousness? And wait, is it all saying that Jesus is God? Or are there only a couple proof texts about Jesus' divinity? And and how does that and a lot of that came too from the the Mormon evangelism training that Tim would do every year?

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

And um, yeah, so I got to teach. I'm learning about Mormonism while being a young believer. My my brain's getting thrown all over the place, and all of a sudden I like started reading like philosophy books and and like uh various theologians that were more apologetically focused rather than you know, like exegetical and hermeneutic stuff. And um, I started getting a really big head. Like I am so smart. Yep. I know how to teach the Bible, I'm ready to go talk to some Mormons. Like, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna go on this missions trip. I'm a new, I I'm I I got the gospel, and the first conversation was with a LDS bishop.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

So that's like their version of the pastor, right? Yeah, and this guy obviously, if you're unfamiliar with the LDS faith, they typically go on missions, and very few bishops in that level of authority haven't gone on a mission. Right. Because that's like a like a stamp of approval, like you did it. Yeah. Um, so he probably had conversations with Christians and anybody else for two years straight on his mission, wherever he was on his mission, and he made me question my salvation. I doubted my faith, I didn't trust the Bible, and I thought like maybe Christianity is a cult too. Whoa. And that all happened in like an hour, and like Tim, you know, he trained us for like seven weeks, and I have one conversation, and I go like sit on the grass while everyone else is doing evangelism at this thing called the pageant, and I'm just like in my head, and I got like so frustrated. So then I remember like taking my Book of Mormon and my Bible, and I like marked it all up, and I was like, Oh, now I'm gonna be serious. But that was like the most humbling experience ever, because I trained for seven weeks. I'm like this immature but fired up kid who thinks he knows better than everybody else, and I got put in my place really quickly by the Lord's grace, indeed, by his grace, yeah. Because that was a that was a turning point for me. Um I was like angry and fired up, but like my heart was broken. Yeah. Because if I could feel the way that I felt with the truth, how could someone else feel without it? Yeah, you know. So I was very I was frustrated with myself and I needed to change the way that I did things. So um, I'm sure you could ask Tim and he would say that trip was uh a big deal. And it wasn't because I was like particularly moved because we did any service project or I like it was a high spiritual moment. It was because I was shown to be an idiot. Like I like I I was shown to be foolish and and a big-headed one at that. Sure. So um, yeah. So those those trips were really awesome because I got to train, I got to go talk to people, I got to articulate the gospel. And the more and more we did more apologetically driven things where I had to learn how to articulate what I believed, I would question what I actually believe. Like, do I believe this? Or am I just parodying what quote unquote Christians say?

SPEAKER_05 59:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

And um, that's again one more step in me owning what I believe and now needing to back it up with textual criticism, historicity, trustworthiness of not only the scriptures, but even archaeology, and you know, because with Mormonism, the Bible's not necessarily the Word of God. It has to be translated correctly and everywhere that it doesn't necessarily line up, but that's where it's been mistranslated conveniently, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:45

To uh reformed Egyptian.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, that's the actually that's the golden plates. The golden plates were written in gold in in uh reformed Egyptian hieroglyphs. That's right. But um but Joseph Smith did his own translation. He didn't finish it. He had died, unfortunately, of the new King James or the King James, the JST. But anyway, all that to say, those trips were really impactful. Sure. Because it made me not be like just like a Christian on the sidelines who parroted what other people said. I had to be convinced of what I was articulating. Because when I had that conversation with that bishop, I wasn't convinced of what I was saying. I don't even know why I was saying what I was saying. I just got trained to say it. Um, but it hadn't uh connected with my faith and the the like historical Christianity and orthodox, I mean, as as far as you know, Western evangelicals can be orthodox, you know, like the idea there of the faith once for all delivered to the saints, um, maybe in the broad sense, was something that I at that point started to actually study and read. And instead of there being like a proof text here and there for various theological things, like I would just read Romans and be like, it's everywhere. Or like read Titus, it's everywhere. And then you read John, it's everywhere. And that was one of my biggest frustrations, is I was so ignorant because I spent so much time on proof text. I thought that was the only place where the Bible made certain points, but the whole thing is about Jesus, the whole thing is of grace, the whole thing is God's amazing story of redeeming humanity that rebelled and all of the gospel and yeah, yeah, it's good. I'm sorry, I'm just not like ranting at this point. Not at all, but yeah, that was those those trips were huge, and that led to eventually going to a little town called Ephraim for my internship as a uh a cafe barista.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

So how did how specifically so you're going on these trips? How did that you're the next step there of getting into this internship? How specifically did that happen? How did that transpire?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

I was on a trip because we had gone, I'd like to save on my PTO and go. Like that was like my only vacation. So I loved this trip. It was so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

And I had gotten to know the staff of Tri-Grace Ministries pretty well. So Chip and Jamie, they were really sweet and kind, and they always they always said, Hey, come on, like, be an intern. I was like, no, I don't want to move to Utah. Like, yeah, I remember my wife and I were dating at the time we went on the first trip, and she was like, You could do this. And mind you, she said that after I got demolished and questioned my faith by that bishop dude. So I didn't tell her. I was like so in my head. But um she was like, I could see you moving here. I was like, You're crazy. That would never happen. And she always gives me a hard time because she like called it like four years in advance. But anyway, Shane and Kim, Jordan, and Chelsea Rittmeier, all of them are just staff that were there at the time, and they they saw that I was excited. Um, and I was consistently going on these trips, and they're always hungry for interns because they have a ministry that runs year-round. They have a cafe, they have a Bible museum, they have campus ministry that they do. They do evangelism at Temple Square, the Mormon Missionary Training Center, they help support other local churches in the um the state of Utah. So they're a really busy ministry, and it's tiny. So they do a lot, and there's like eight of them. So they're always hurting for interns. And one year specifically, the last year, um, there were two major things that kind of made me feel maybe I'll just say convicted to go. The first one was due to family si situations, I was trying to support my family to the best of my ability. Um, being there for my younger siblings. I have a brother that I'm 10 years older than and a sister that I'm 14 years older than. And I just took responsibility that wasn't mine in a lot of ways. Um which uh again, I'm thankful for in the long run. Um but that was something that for me, Jamie said that's not a good reason not to come be an intern. And she said sometimes to help people look up, you have to let them hit rock bottom. You can't be the crutch for them that only Jesus can be. So like I'm staying back because I want my family to be believers. I want them to meet Jesus like I have, and have flashbacks of pop-up one-on-ones and and go, oh, it all makes sense, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

So that's not everybody's journey.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:35

It's not, it's not, and I wanted to force it, man. I wanted to force it so bad. Can't force it, can't force it at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

And I think that's a hard part about shepherding. You can lead, you can guide, but you can't force. Yep. Yeah. True. It's rare when that really works. Very, very rare.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:57

So I had to let go of it. And you went. Yeah. And the main reason that I was like hurt, because I realized my hypocrisy. I was talking to this fundamentalist kid. He was a nephew of the prophet of the UAB, which is like an offshoot fundamentalist group of the mainstream Mormon church. And my favorite thing, I'm African American, so my favorite thing with the No. Everybody, everybody on the podcast won't know. Because if I start saying what I'm about to say, then it would be like, what? But for context, like black people couldn't go to like the highest heaven for until 1976 or 1979. I can't remember. Um, but the the fundamentalists still hold to that doctrine. So black people can't have the priesthood. So I'm a black guy going to Utah. So my first thing is the polygamists would always wear colored shirts, while the mainstream Mormon gentlemen would wear white shirts. So you always knew who they were because they were actually there evangelizing the mainstream and saying, You're not Mormon enough. You're not, you're not holding to the first six prophets. So I would always walk up and be like, Hello, how's it going? What's your name? My name's this. Cool. Can I go to the celestial kingdom? I would just go straight to it. And they, and thankfully, they were consistent. Well, not really thankfully, but they would say, no. And then we and the conversation would just take off from there. And we talk about grace, the gospel, and all that stuff. And this one guy, Josiah, I started to make a particular connection with. And we met every week and or every night that week, because we're in Utah for a week at this one event that happens over and over and over again for five days. And he had a new King James Bible. And he said, Hey, it tells me where the Bible's mis mistranslated because it says some manuscripts say. And I'm like, oh, okay, that's light work. Let's read every passage where it talks about Jesus being God, doing something that only God can do, or claiming to be God Himself. And if it says that no manuscripts say anything different, you have to bow the knee to Jesus because he is Lord. And he's like, Bet, let's do it. So we're sitting at this place. Uh it's like a little burger shack right off the main street in Mantai, and we're going through all the verses. By the end, he's like, Oh my gosh, Jesus is God. And I shared with him the passage about leaving brothers, fathers, sister, mothers' lands for the sake of the gospel and receiving it tenfold in this life. Because he was like, I can't leave. I got four moms, 36 siblings. Like I'm deep in it. Oh my gosh. My my uh my uncle's the prophet. I could be one of the next prophets. I can't do that. So I shared that verse with him, and then he's like, I can't. So I'm crushed. I thought, like, oh my gosh, the Lord was moving mightily. He realized that Jesus was God. He realized that God died for him. And um there was a person who was already signed up to be an intern, and she was with me while we were doing this evangelism. Her name's Kenan, and she's really scary looking. She has like all these tattoos, and she has like a lamb on one leg and a lion on the other, and like lion the witch in wardrobe stuff. So she's like theologically tatted out, and I was always afraid, and she just joined the conversation one time, and so she's there, and she heard me tell Josiah that he should leave for the sake of the gospel and receive it tenfold in this life, not later now. And she was like, It's funny that you would share that verse with him, but you wouldn't do that yourself and live on mission. And I was like, Oh wow! And that night I filled out an application, and then I was an intern for a year, and then they asked me to be the student ministry director because one of the gentlemen, David Gadskins, who poured into me so much, um, he moved there to plant a church. So his time had ended, and he went to plant a church in Provo. It's Mosaic Bible church. If you're listening in Utah, Provo, check it out, it's amazing. Um and that's where ministry became an official job for me. Yeah. The first time. And this is an Ephraim, right? Ephraim, Utah. Yeah. So what's Ephraim like? Ephraim is population 3,000. Um it's uh the highest percentage of Latter-day Saints uh per capita, I guess you can say, when it comes to the state of Utah. Because SLC is devolved quite a bit, provo, it's very popular and trendy, so there's a lot of non-LDS people that go there. So um I think it was at the highest percentage of like 67% or something like that. Um we did a survey actually and asked people why. One gentleman said because they let blacks in. That was hilarious. Oh yeah. So my time there was wild. It was like culture shock, and it was very it was weird being black there, you know, but it was also awesome being a Christian there because they're like, hey, you're a Christian, what do you believe, and why? Yeah, or why aren't you Mormon? Or, you know, that's part of the reason I like I pierced my ears and I got tattoos because I was so frustrated that people thought I was Mormon. Sure. Um Did you drink Coke and coffee too? I d well the ministry is actually a coffee shop because it's a fishing net for people who are on their way out. Sure. You know, so that was the idea. They'd come in, they're like super rebellious, so like the maybe the cultural equivalent of going to the club and getting, you know, plastered would be going to a cafe and having a coffee. Wow. That might be the cultural equivalent because how like crazy it was. Um and they'd come in and you have conversations and and then we also had a Bible study on Wednesdays for the college. We partnered with Intervarsity and then later Roscio Christie, and um, and then also the goal was to be a parachurch ministry, not the church. So the goal was to get everybody plugged in and participating at E from Church of the Bible, which Rodney Zedeker, the gentleman that I referenced before, was the pastor there.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:28

Yeah, yeah. And so originally it was working at this coffee shop, doing this Bible study, just being a witness to those that are in rebellion to Mormonisms by serving them coffee. 100%, which is awesome. That just it's so cool. Um, and so what they provided housing for you. Okay, so providing housing, um, training, any type of training while you were doing this.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:57

Yeah, so Jordan Rittmeier, he was the apologetics director there, and he took us through a curriculum that he had created. Um, it was, I think, more than half the year was about Mormonism. And then there was also uh a Hale Krishna festival that took place at the second largest Hindu temple. It happens to be in Utah. And it would be interesting because a lot of Latter-day Saints and Christians would go because it's like a it's like a party. There's like house music and there's like colors that you throw around. So we would go and pass out fires and I would not have ever have thought. Wow. It's weird, man. And there's like even meat sacrificed to idols there, so that became like a practical discussion amongst Christians. Like, do we partake? Do we know? Is it for the sake of the unbeliever that we don't? Like fascinating. It was a it was such a weird world, man. And it's in the middle of the United States, and there were still hundreds of people that I interacted with that had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was wild. That sounds like the wild west out there, dude. It was wild. It was absolutely insane, and all the while, the Christian community was the sweetest, most unified group. You know, because it like Ethan Church of the Bible, next church is, you know, what, like 20 or 30 miles away. And beyond that, maybe if you wanted to get a big church, like beyond 15 or 20, you'd have to go all the way to like Springville, to like uh, what is it? I can't remember what the name of the church is, but that was a big church. So you either didn't go to church, you streamed one online, or everybody from all these different denominational backgrounds came to eat from Church of the Bibles. You had like hyper charismatics, you had people speaking in tongues, you had fundamentalist Baptists, you had, you know, like premillennial dispes and all millennials, you had everybody and their mama together in one church, having fellowship meals and just keeping the main thing, the main thing. And it was so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:57

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:58

It was so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

That sounds a picture of heaven right there, dude. A little bit, a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:02

Wow, young and old, too. And so many people moved there on mission. Yeah. You know, because they had been there at the pageant, which is that thing that I was talking about. And um they're like, we're gonna move here. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

How many people how large was this church?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:18

Um, when I first came, they had recently done a church plant in a city south of them. It was uh Gunnison Valley Church. So Ephraim Church of the Bible at that point was like 150, and then they split, and a lot of people lived south of Ephraim, so then it like dwindled down to like 40. Okay. So it was about that for a while. And and praise the Lord, they just moved to three service or they just moved to two services. Wonderful. Because they ran out of space. And that was like that was this September. It was like last month. What a blessing. So yeah, it was a sweet place, man. It was so cool. And then also when school was in, college kids would come. So if they were visiting for or say they were going to school and they were Christians wherever they were from, cool. And then also our club was like 40% international students. So we had people from Guatemala, Honduras, Germany, Brazil, Africa. I don't know the country, I'm sorry. But yeah, it was a really cool opportunity, ministry-wise, just experientially. It was and it was weird. You go to E from Utah and then you interact with people from all over the world more so than in southern Orange County, in my little bubble that I was in. It was wild.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

You know, Orange County is such a bubble, dude. Sure is, and the echo chamber. Oh my gosh. And the fact that you got out and learned practical ministry outside of it, and then eventually which we'll get into, but brought it back with you. That's such a gift. Such a gift. Very good. Um, and you went from this coffee shop to then the student ministries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:00

So I would still work in the coffee shop. Yeah, but I would but I had this this uh responsibility thrust upon me because the house that David was renting got sold. Okay. And he had like a month to leave. And we're in the middle of him teaching me how to teach Bible studies, you know? So we're in the middle of a Galatian study, and he's like, I have to move. We'll do everything over the phone now. And it was like, What? Okay. And he would drive down, bless his heart. He would drive two hours once a week to meet with me and go through the manuscript, go through the lesson, and all the while also go in through books with me, like John Piper's We're not Brothers, We Are Not Professionals, a book that his pastor in Colorado wrote, um, Relentless Encourager, one of the best reads I've ever done. Uh, Thickle's um Little Exercise for Young Theologians, like all these little things that have been so instrumental, and now what I use to to like help people realize that everyone's a theologian, or like, here, let's talk about gossip. This book, Relentless Encourager, this is a great one for us. Let's meet and let's talk, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:04

Um, yeah, because again, he duplicated himself to a degree in me. And um, so because he had to leave so abruptly, the ministry was like, Can you do it? And I said, Heck yeah. I'm single, I'm chilling, you're taking care of my room and board, I will serve wherever you want. But you and Julia are still together at this point. Yeah, we're dating long distance, and um I knew that that was a reality, so that summer I actually proposed to her over the phone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:36

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:38

Yeah. It worked out great.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

You're married, you got her.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:41

It was uh it was a a taboo attempt for sure. Yeah. But yeah. So she was cool with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

So then, okay, so you you proposed her over the phone. How long was your engagement? Three months. Three. Woo! Not wasting any time.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:03

No, she already had a so she had a binder from when she was six years old with everything already planned. She didn't. I swear to you. Does she still have it? I I hope so. I don't know if she does or not, but and then her thing was like she wanted it to be traditional, so like everything was like, you know, suits and you know, it was like black and white and the white dress, and they did like the 90s version where it wasn't a a meal, so you had like a really long ceremony. We sang worship together with the whole congregation. We invited the whole church, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:34

At Christ's community. So we're you're married at Christ Community. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:37

What the heck, right? Wow, everything's here. Um, and and then I think it was like something in the 90s where you just did like dessert. So she like we did something like that where everybody came out, and so it was really it was a simple wedding, but it was elegant, it was stunning, it was cost effective, and you know, she's frugal like me, so it worked out. And I'm guessing Tim did the wedding? Tim did officiate. And Tim was instrumental in my wife, I think, maturing and being challenged, and because my wife, she she got saved when she was like four years old. Yeah, you know, she believed and she was raised in a solid Christian household. My father-in-law, I get breakfast with him every Friday. Again, another man that's just speaking truth into my life in so many ways. Um and yeah, Alan Tracy or Fouad, which is his his first name, he's from Alexandria. My wife suggested. Oh, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:34

I remember you mentioned that before.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

Yeah. So he and Tracy are amazing again. And I don't know, it sounds like I'm so biased to my people, but I've just been so thankful for them as well. We live with them right now, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:52

So um I've really gotten to know them.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

And it's been so cool to see that everything I thought about them when Julia and I were dating in in passing is exactly the same. They're just so sweet, so caring, so thoughtful. And I love the my my mother-in-law, she loves like formalities, you know? And she's really and she was a she's um relational therapist. So she picks up on cues and she has so she has like this formality thing where like, oh, you s you say things certain ways, you always do cards this way. And it's like a really sweet, intentional kind of personality while also being able to like psychoanalyze and like see patterns in different behaviors. So it's just really cool to see her do her thing. And my father-in-law is a lawyer, so we love we love to argue.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:40

Here you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:41

You know, so Friday, if you ever see us at a coffee shop somewhere, we're going at it talking about something about theology and something. So it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

I think men need as sparring partner like that. 100%. That at the end of it, it's all love. Yeah, it's all love.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:00

But when you're in the midst of it, it's it's all right, I've got my point and let's let's go.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:05

Let's go, yeah. And I've learned a lot from him. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:08

And that's the goal, right? Is to ultimately, it's not to so much prove the point, it's to learn. Yeah. Yeah. To learn. Wow. So I imagine then she moves out there with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:22

Yeah, which was crazy, bro, because 27, 27 years, 27 years, same house. Orange County, Orange County, Mission Vejo. Yeah, so like bougie. At least from where I'm coming from, like where I'm coming from, like Santa Ana's bougie. You know, so like South OC, like going to Christ Community Church felt like I was going to the most beautiful, amazing place with the most weather, and everyone was nice, and everyone was chilling. Nobody was really, and I know now, especially as a pastor at our church, everyone's not chilling, and they're just like everybody else. Nothing, nothing sp special or particular necessarily. Everybody has their own struggles and all that stuff. But she moved to E from Utah, and she was the only Christian in her entire district as a teacher, which was wild. And she got hired over the phone because the principal heard that she was marrying someone who lives in St. Pete, so he thought that she was Mormon because he thought I was a St. Pete boy. So then she shows up, she's got three piercings in her ears. Mormon girls are only allowed to have one. She has a cross gold necklace on because you know the Egyptians gotta rock the gold. And he's like, Are you Mormon? That's the first question. The principal asked my wife after hiring her over the phone. HR. Right?

SPEAKER_07 1:21:47

HR, what's going on?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:49

Yeah. And so that was wild for her. And then also, like, she's public school her whole life, public school teacher, and a lot of the people at Tri Grace are more like homeschool because they moved to Utah out of nowhere. They're not gonna just like throw their kids in Mormonville. That's wild. So some of the like just all the differences there, plus having to get used to me and all my quirks. Because like we like we dated, of course, but we didn't live together. Right. Like she didn't know anything about me in like the practical day-to-day like she knew I liked Star Wars and that I loved her, and that I liked playing video games. Sometimes I played football and I geeked out on theology, but she didn't know like you can go and find out today. Yeah. And she found out, and it was wild too, because we got married, we had everything shipped to our house, and everything was in boxes when we got back from our honeymoon. And we got back Sunday at 12 o'clock and she started work that Monday. So her experience first our first night at our home, she was on a mattress topper, like a like a one of those little memory film mattress toppers, and I was on the floor next to her, next to the couch, and I was like, Welcome to Ephraim, like this is great, and it was sweet. And we look back and laugh humble beginnings, humble beginnings indeed, you know, and uh and it's still quite humble living with them, like living with my in-laws, but we're chilling. Yeah, and yeah, it was so it was it was culture shock for her, and I had been acclimating for three years. Yeah, so I'm like, You're fine, you can do this, we can do this, and it's like, oh wow, and then the snow as well. Snows a bit snows there. A ton. Oh my wife had to get up. Well, I would get up early sometimes, sometimes I would not, but we had to get up early, start the car, get it warm, scrape the ice off the windshield, because she would go to sch go to school at seven and she'd drive through this highway where there's always an elk on the road, or you know, like five people died on that road while we lived there because of a cow or an elk or black ice, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:51

So she this little orange county girl.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:53

Yeah, she got thrown into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:56

Yeah, man. And then also having to share me so much, because you know, firsthand ministry, you can't be as present as you can clock out, you can leave work at home in any other job. With this, you're available 24-7, people are asking questions, and I did not do a good job of setting boundaries or like setting just wife time, if that makes sense. So there was so much where there it was hard for her. She was by herself, and she had to share me with you know 40 other kids. That's hard. And my ministry staff. So um Tim said that we went through like 10 years of sanctification in the two years that we lived there, like the meat grinder of just working through things and figuring things out and you know, and like learning how to fight well and and work together well, and and her learning what it means to be married to someone in ministry, and me learning to be in ministry and being married and realizing, oh, wait, my first ministry is my wife. Because if you're not getting it done at home, you're not getting it done anywhere. Nope. You know, so I learned that very quickly. And having my wife on my team, I think now because she's so involved, it's because we learned very quickly how not to do marriage in ministry together in Utah for the first couple of years, or like the first year at a at a at the max, you know. And I'm so thankful for the staff there. Like Jamie took Julia under her wing and became her bestie and supported her in so much. Chip and Damie would like invite us over for dinner and we'd be talking, and they're like, All right, so what's up? You know, you're like, Oh, okay, let's talk. And they just would they didn't beat around the bush. They were so helpful and kind and they discipled us together as a couple in marriage. Same thing with Shane and Kim and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:43

So I think that's so needed and so missed by young couples in ministry because as you hit it's it's a vocation unlike any other. Very few operate the way that ministry does. Where the spouse is having to share like that. Where like I remember a very clear conversation. My wife is an introvert. Uh, so when church is over, not so much anymore, but when we first got married, she's like, okay, church is over, let's go. And luckily, like that didn't that that uh issue wasn't a big issue for long. I eventually we had to eventually sit down and say, and I had to tell her, hey Allie, like I can't just leave. I'm I'm a shepherd here, I'm a pastor, I I be with the people.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:51

Um you have the freedom to go. If we need to drive two cars, we drive two cars. That's fine. I'm not gonna force you to stay. Yeah, but I need you to understand this is the this is the time that I'm with the people. Yeah, and um it's so needed for an older, wiser, seasoned couple to come around a young couple that's learning those dynamics. Yeah. Uh unfortunately, we didn't have that. And um it it took us a lot longer to figure that stuff out. Um and I'm so glad that you had that because I'm I can only imagine the wisdom that you guys received in those moments of conversation discipleship. Um it's so needed. Gosh, it's so needed. Um there's a guy that um I'm kind of helping through right now where he's exploring the idea if he wants to dive into ministry or not. And the first couple conversations we've had, I I've I've really pressed into him. You need to sit down and talk to your wife. They just had a baby girl. And I said, You need you guys need to talk. Um, and I gave him some practical examples of, hey, I know she only likes attending one service with you. Um, they go to a church where um there's a nine and 1045. Um, very similar to our church. Cool. And they she really likes going only as 1045. And I said, dude, if you step into a role like this, that's not what life looks like anymore. Like you, I need you need to press into that. And you guys can't go into this, that this is just your thing. It it's maybe you're in that role, but you guys are in this together. Yeah. It has to, and if it can't, then don't do it. 100%. Because it will ruin you, it'll ruin her, it'll ruin any type of ministry you have. Um, you guys have to go into this together. Um again, it's a a vocation unlike any other. 100%. Yeah. Um and so how much longer you you you're married, you guys are in the life, you're grooving, you're going, she's adjusting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To to uh non-Orange County life. Yeah, 100%. Um so cool. Uh so how long were you guys in that together?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:32

Two years. Two years. Two years, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

And how often would you come back here and visit?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:38

Um mainly holidays. The first couple of times we visited was um because it's it's about an hour and forty minute flight. Okay, or a 10-hour drive. Okay. And we drove it a couple of times and then we found like this little airport that was dope. That was Allegiant Airline or Breeze. Yeah. And we could fly for like 40 bucks. So it was cheaper than driving. Oh, yeah. So then we started to come back, you know. And there were a couple of reasons that we had to come back. So my grandfather on my father's side, he passed away. So we'd come back for a funeral. Okay. Or we'd come back for, you know, my brother's graduation or her brother's graduation and Thanksgiving and stuff like that. Her parents were super kind though. One year they they met us halfway in St. George and had Thanksgiving together there, which was really sweet.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:22

That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:23

Yeah. So mainly holidays. And then as a teacher, she didn't have summer work. And then as a college ministry, the summers weren't as heavy. So we would have one or two weeks of summer that we would come home.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:35

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:36

Get poured into, relax a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:39

Give the church an update as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:42

Yep. And then you were there for two years. What ultimately brought you back here?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:50

My first ministry and my need for education. Explain that. My wife is my first ministry. And I and I saw um how well she acclimated, how well she was doing, but I was I was like frustrated because like I wanted her to be like happy there. And she wasn't and like thrive there. Yeah. And I think she was doing very well, but she was not thriving. And like we were trying to find friends, and all of our friends were just ministry people, and it was this, and again, it's ministry, so this idea of like constantly pouring out, and also for her, I'm always with my ministry team doing evangelism in the cafe. She's in the like ground zero all day, every day, you know, and part of it was kind of fun because somebody would walk in and be like, I don't really believe this stuff, and then leave, or like, hey, don't tell anybody, but I drink coffee. Like LDS people coming into her room, and she became a confidant and she really got connected with some pretty high-up people. She got like a private tour of the Manti temple, and she made a lot of really cool connections and stuff, but it was hard. And she um, she knew that I had a re-up on my agreement coming up. On I agreed for five years, three of those years was myself, two of those years was with Julia, and she's like, either we're gonna re-up and commit to another five or ten, or this year we're gonna give them a heads up and allow them a year to find replacements. And I thought, wow, very wise. So that last year we were scouting replacements, and then we eventually found a couple and we trained them for that whole year to get her in a in a place where it would be more ideal. Like for a while, I was beating myself up, like, oh, I left the mission field, I'm a loser. Like, we we put our personal needs before the gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, and things like that. Um, but David Gatskins, the guy who discipled me out in Utah, before we even got married, he said, Would you move back to California for her?

SPEAKER_07 1:33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:15

Because when you get married, she's your first ministry. Is this ministry so much an idol, basically, in your life that you think one, God can't do it without you, and two, your wife needs to stay wherever she doesn't want to be. Because you guys need to be united. You could force her to stay, but your life's gonna suck, and your ministry is gonna suffer as well. Um, so I thought back to those times and we had good conversations. We never argued or fought over it. I was just crushed, but I didn't want to express my crushed state because then she would feel she's such an empathetic, sweet person. She'd be like, no, no, no, I'll stay. But then she would suffer. So I was like, here's what we'll do. We'll we'll move if I can get my education going. So originally I wanted to go to Westminster Seminary Escondido, so we'd move back, I'd live on campus, and I'd go to school for four years with the hypothetical potential of going back to Utah and serving in ministry at a church. Because I had gotten a lot of people, not a lot of, but I've had a couple of people, particularly Rodney, express the need for help, and our partnership there was awesome. He's like, you could come be an associate pastor and work together, like you've been here for five years, that'd be great. Once you got your education, come back. Or there was another guy at Alpine Bible Church, Nathaniel. So cool. We did uh summer camps together. It was Gracehaven Bible camp. It was so sweet. So many memories are coming back into my brain right now. Um, but like, hey, we need help. Like, come come help out. And even David at Mosaic Church, he was like, dude, come on. I'm like, that's so sick. You know, it's like, but I'm moving.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:59

And because I want my wife to be not happy, I want her to be healthy. Yep. I want our marriage to be healthy, and I want to be in, and my wife said something that was so profound and so simple. You can be a missionary anywhere. Why do you think you have to be a missionary in Utah? And I'm like, Preach it. That's correct. That that is correct. She's like, honey, there's atheists, there's Mormons, there's more people that don't believe there. I'm like, okay. Interesting. You know, so those are, you know, that's a it's a godly woman.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:31

There's a Mormon church right across the freeway from Christ community.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:34

Dude, in Salt Lake, or not Salt Lake, in San Clemente, it's like the second highest per capita of Mormons in the country. Don't remind me. My bad, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:42

I know, I know it is, man. I know. That Marines. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, dude. I mean, she's she's 100% right.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:51

Yeah. She's a very wise woman, and I'm very thankful for her. And I've learned a lot from my amazing wife. She's uh she's a good thinker. I love discussing with her. And when I say arguing, I I like I like arguing in the sense that like I'll make a point, she'll make a point, I'll push back, she'll push back. Um, which also makes like fighting interesting because it's like actual argumentation. Um, but when emotions get involved, then everything goes crazy. But the idea there is I'm so thankful that my wife is not she's not one of those girls that's like, whatever my husband says, I will do.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:31

She's like, I'm going to speak truth into my husband's life. I'm not going to be like just quiet because I society tells me I need to be quiet. She like she knows that she can tell me anything, and she's safe to say anything to me, and I will take into account what she says and think through it. So then together as a couple, we decided to move back. It wasn't just because of her or just because of me. It was it was an agreed thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:57

And what drove you to want to further your education?

SPEAKER_03 1:37:01

Um, I've always wanted to finish my degree. I started a business degree. Okay. And then um once I got into ministry, I was like, wow, this is cool. And Rick Roadheaver, or excuse me, Dr. Roadheaver. Dr. Roadheaver. He's gonna hate that. Maybe. I don't know. He has pretty dope plaque though. It looks pretty sick. Um He had a meeting once when I was visiting, and he's like, So what do you want to do? What do you want to do with life and ministry? And he's like, Okay, if you want to do any of that, having an education is gonna make it so that you aren't just some guy who can talk about theology. You're gonna have credibility. And he was like, I think you can do your PhD. And he's like, he was like hyping me up, man. I was like, wow, okay. So that one conversation, like in my mind, made me actually believe that I could do something in relation to education. I thought I was just gonna be like boots on the ground, missionary guy. Because everybody in Utah, like Chip, he he had a Bible degree, but he never talked about it, you know, or or Shane was like, you don't need a degree to do these things, you know? Or like even Rodney, he talked about his degree and how he's so different now than he was in like theologically and where he got his degree, he's like, Yeah, I don't like I don't need that for anything. So I was in that headspace as well. But if I was gonna move to California and and want to do ministry here, a degree's essential. Why do you say it's essential? Well I would say if a church is hiring someone and they're not either pursuing or will pursue or have already achieved uh an MDIV or some kind of theological training, they're they're taking a major risk. Why is that? Because there's you don't know what that person knows. You don't know what they've been trained in, and it would take a long time for you to vet and verify after hiring this person, generally speaking. Now, there's plenty of people who have degrees who go off the rails. I'm not saying I'm not saying that's the the turnkey lock, but I think to get in the door, um, maybe let's say like more pro even a professional sense, um, that was the advice and the wisdom that was given to me by Dr. Rothheaver. And you know, he values education, got a PhD. So I said, yes, sir. And I finished my undergrad in biblical studies. I changed my major and got that done at GCU, super fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:41

And then came back and started Greek One when we moved. There you go. And before we moved, the previous pastor, Jordan Sidano, um, was looking at uh places and they were like, hey, don't tell anybody, but there's gonna be an opening. Yeah, think about it, pray about it. And I was like, No way. And he'd been there for a long time. Six years, yeah. Yeah, six years. Yeah, yeah. And he did great, and he kept a lot of traditions alive, and he he made new traditions, and he taught the Bible well. He was going to masters, so he really valued um solid exegesis, and the students really, I think, gained a lot from his his education while he was going. He taught the Bible and he exegeted and he explained everything, and it was so encouraging to come in as a new guy and be like, Oh, yeah, oh you you guys know this stuff. That's good. Okay, so we're not we're not starting from ground zero because where I was coming from was you were part of a pagan cult. Yeah. And I had to teach you everything, and it was like culture shock coming back for me, like, oh, wait, no, there's this faithful minister of the gospel speaking into the life of these kids, faithful families at our church, discipling their children. And I was like, okay, I gotta, I gotta change my whole because I was clarifying everything. I was like talking about grace, where grace didn't even need to be talked about. And I was just clarifying, by the way, Jesus is God, in case you were what you know, because all of that cult, counter-cult ministry was still in my brain for like it still is today, you know? Sure. It's only been a year and not even a year and a half, and I I find myself going back to like default battle mode um sometimes. But again, very thankful because it's doctrine of God, doctrine of salvation, doctrine of man that were the biggest differences. So all that to say, Jordan Sidano had expressed his desire to become a senior pastor. Right. They gave me a heads up. I was like, wow, no way. That's crazy. And then Jordan got hired. Texas. Texas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:01

Churchill Baptist. See, I didn't know the name of the church. Now I'm gonna have to look it up. Yeah. In do you know where in Texas?

SPEAKER_03 1:42:08

I don't, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:08

Okay, Churchill, Churchill?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:10

Church Hill, yeah. Churchill, uh Church Churchill Church. Church. I think it's Churchill Baptist. Churchill Baptist. Churchill Baptist Church. Okay, I'm gonna have to look that up.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:21

Yeah. Um and he started with Ephesians. Which is great. Because we st I started with Ephesians too. Did you? And it was so sweet. Like we're at different locations, he's off somewhere new. I'm off somewhere new, but it's old for him, and we're both studying the beautiful book of Ephesians together.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:40

So I mean, this speaks so much about knowing your people, right? You knew the people in Utah what they needed. Yep. What did these kids need?

SPEAKER_03 1:42:55

I didn't know the kids that much, honestly. Like when I when I left, these these kids were, you know, unknown. Like I, in passing with like Adventure Week, you know, maybe rub shoulders with them here and there. The thing that shocked me the most was that the kids that I discipled in junior high were now high school and junior high leaders. I was like, what the wow. You feel the gray coming in. Yeah, I felt the grade for sure. You know, like going to their weddings and stuff, like all day. I can't wait till you know who knows from from now.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:26

Oh, dude, wait until they start having kids. That really gets you. Oh, jeez. I've had a few. Yeah. Oh, dude, it gets you. Oh no. This is not. Dude, I remember when you were like t 12. Right. That's crazy. Um, so then why'd you choose Ephesians?

SPEAKER_03 1:43:45

Um, because it's it's the gospel for six chapters applied to everyday life. Um, I love the structure of it. Much like um many of uh uh Paul's other letters, you have all of these just objective realities in light of the gospel that are um indicatives. They are the just the state of a saint in light of uh what God has done. So blessed beyond compare. Um the idea of the security in being in loved, uh predestined for adoption and sealed with the spirit, and then the reality of being surrounded by pagan religions and Christ being far above every ruler in authority, um, with every other enemy under his feet, and that that reality is shown in our lives. That's the same power that God used to raise Christ from the dead and exalt him to the position above every other name, is the same power that he works in us, and it's mind-blowing because the church exists to make that reality known. And then the beautiful pivot to therefore live in a manner worthy of this, the gospel that you've been blessed beyond compared, and so on and so forth. And the practical and and the reason I would say, like, I love Ephesians so much, but I like it for a new thing, because one Christ is exalted in a way that is so special, um, and he's exalted for us in a way that is so special. The doctrine of unity with Christ is very clear there, and that's a very important doctrine to have as a backbone in the ministry because you can say all the things, but if you're not united to him, big whoop, you know? Yep. Or you have to achieve unity. No, no, no. You're united to him by grace. You were dead, now you're alive, because God, you know. Um, and then the generalness of it, it's not a specific letter in the sense that like Philippians is very specific. Sure. There's specific people being mentioned and specific issues being mentioned, and various um therefore that are very specific to the church in Philippi or the church in Colossae or Philemon or whatever. Um, or even the Pauline and Johnine, excuse me, the Petrine or whatever, Peter and John, like they're very specific to and Ephesians is like a circulating letter in a region. So the the generic kind of uh practical stuff, the generic indicatives were incredibly helpful in having that flexibility with a a ministry that I didn't know the sheep I was feeding yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:46

So is it a way for you to kind of lay the foundation, see where they're kinda at? Yep. Um, obviously you knew because of Jordan that he had laid a great foundation, but just for your own personal understanding, you want to see how they were. Yep. And are you still in Ephesians? Or so where are you at now?

SPEAKER_03 1:47:08

Now we're in um basically a series uh called The Bible in Real Life.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:15

So what does that look like? That is um how one, the why the Bible matters. Okay. Why is it so trustworthy, or why should we trust it? Is it historically accurate?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:28

That was the first type.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:31

Um actually no. The only the first only the first one, because who cares what it says if you can't trust it. So why does it matter? Because it's historically grounded, it's um supernaturally unified, and it's um supernaturally preserved. Like this idea of just being able to trust it. Therefore, what does it say about my identity?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:51

And if Ephesians was huge about that, and then Which is a huge thing in this uh culture that these kids are growing up in identity.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:00

Yes, is so huge. So this was this is probably the most practical. So we did Ephesians, then we did Colossians, and then we did um uh gosh, why am I freaking out? This thing called the story that hits different, where it's basically biblical theology uh tracing Christ from Genesis 3.15 to Revelation 21. Um, it was eight weeks, so it was I wanted them to see like wow, this is the whole thing's about Jesus. It's just one unified story.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:29

And because that one was so like bird's eye view, um, I wanted to get really practical. Yep. So the Bible is the Bible is awesome. Yes, it's historically grounded, all that stuff. So what does it say about identity? Okay. Now with our identity established, what does it say? How does our identity get lived out in relationships? Yep. Okay, now if relationships are impacted by my identity, what does it say about decisions? How does wisdom impact my relationships in light of my identity? And then we have after that influence, and that'll be, you know, how do we use our influence, whether that's social media, whether that's, you know, our personal platforms in our life, how do I witness without witnessing to my classmates? How do I play sports? That like what do I do? And I love that uh I don't even know if it's C. S. Lewis or what, but how does a Christian make really good shoes that like glorify God? Is it by putting crosses on them? No. By making the best shoe.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:35

You know? So like that kind of idea. And then um after after we go through influence, then it will go into uh hope.

unknown 1:49:46

Hope.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:47

Um so yeah, it's been really fun to get to know the kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:53

It's that's changed my teaching. Yeah, I know incredibly.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:59

You know. And I also had to adjust.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:01

You know, like I said, like being like this like Tim said, you're gonna be like a a war veteran. You're gonna come back with all this PTSD and you're gonna just gonna be your radar is gonna be on all the time and you're gonna be correcting people and saying actually and and he was right, you know. Um but learning who uh the kids are. There's this uh what is his name? Timothy I forgot his name. Dang it. It's a great book. It's called The Shepherd Leader, and the the basic premise of the book is very simple. A shepherd leader knows, feeds, leads, and protects the sheep.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:42

That's it. And that was my that was my fallback when I showed up here. I was like, okay, I can feed because I know what Christians need to eat. Yep. I don't know them yet. And if I don't know them, I can't really lead them well, and I don't know what they're going through, so what the heck am I protecting them from? So the so part of the ministry at first was like learning those things, and then as we got to know each other, and as I started to see, okay, this is you guys are super solid on biblical doctrine. You guys are really good on, you know, um, I'll just say maybe the like the essentials of the faith. Um and do you guys know what the whole Bible's about? Because like you guys really know like this book or that book or like Ecclesiastes, that's super cool. Praise the Lord. But do you know the whole things about Jesus? Oh, you okay, cool. Let's do a story. Let's do it. The story that hits different, you know, tracing Jesus the whole way and having that impact our our life, you know, because if you've defeated sin and death, that changes right now. That's it. And our slogan now is the gospel changes everything. So every everything that we do is under the transformative reality of the gospel and tying everything to the gospel, whether that's how we see the world being transformed by the gospel, how we talk to mom and dad, how we live at school. And some of these series are are for that.

SPEAKER_07 1:52:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:09

You know, because if we're ignorant of the gospel, how can we know it changes everything? And um if we're practically removed from it, if we intellectually ascend to the gospel, but we don't live in light of it, then it's not changing everything. So those those are very important things. So anyway, I kind of bounced a bit. No. But getting to know them helped me see what I um was led to conclude was what they needed.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:35

Well, and that's I mean, that's the only way is is to really lead a people. You have to know them. Yeah, you have to know them well to know their struggles, to know their joys, to know their uh fears, all of this, and then let the word speak into that.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:53

And it's our job as shepherds to do that, is to let the word speak. And so, um, and the word will. Yep. Um, I mean, I when I came to the church that I shepherded at, pastored at for seven and a half years, it was a very it was the opposite for me. It was these kids didn't know the Bible very well at all. And so my first thing was, okay, I'm gonna give you a bird's eye view of old of Genesis to Revelation.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:23

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:23

You know, just let's lay the groundwork of this, right? So just the major events of everything that took place, right? And then we dove into it. You know, I taught through um, that was Wednesdays. Sundays, um, they had already been in, somebody was in the interim between me, yeah and the last person. And uh they had been taking them through Revelation. That's hardcore, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:55

Can you imagine a 13-year-old being like, What'd you what'd you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:53:58

Oh, dude. The seven bird screens? They were in like chapter two, so right at the beginning, you know, in the letters and but they were so just in it where I'm like, Oh, you know what? You guys are interested, you're asking good questions. I'm not gonna put I'm not gonna put water on this parade here. Let's let's go. All right, let's do this. Let's start at the end. Yeah. That's cool. And we did, and we went a year into it. Wow, that's cool. And I think from there, like I taught through James, John, Galatians, yeah, yeah. But you gotta know your people. I remember I stopped John because my youth group completely changed. Wow. My youth group went from that to they grew, they grew their hunger for the word, the knowledge of the word went up. Um, you could see the change in them, the growth was awesome. But then the majority of the all graduated. Yeah. And then I had these new crop of kids come in, same story again. And John is such a theologically heavy book. It is. Where a few months into it, with this new crop of kids, I'm like, this is going right over their head. I need to stop this. Um and it's just about knowing them. Yeah. Um for sure. We're getting towards the end here. Okay. Um, so I mean, it Christ's community has played a role spiritually in your life from beginning to now.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:37

Yeah, I'm the product of the church.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:39

You are 100%. Um, this is your home. Yep. Um, you were raised up in it. You were discipled by this church, by this body, and now you are part of shepherding this body. Yep. Full circle. Which is crazy and awesome at the same time because that's the church being the church. The church should raise up its own shepherds. And you are the product of that. And that is so cool to see in real time because that's so rare to see. I mean, so many people, so many times people are hired from the outside to shepherd, but you literally came in from the inside, and so cool to see. Yeah. Um, and it it just it just I I I credit our leadership for that. We have amazing elders, great pastors, um, including yourself, so good. Um for you've been in it now for a little over a year. Yep. For that person, 18 years old, let's say, aspiring to the role of pastor, just like it says in First Timothy 3, what would be some advice, wisdom that you give them as they go and pursue this? Pursue this c calling.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:59

I would say as it pertains to ministry and as it pertains to your walk with the Lord, which highly obviously impacts your ministry. Um I think there's two qualities that have been a repeated affirmation by others in my life that I now intentionally want to pursue. And it's being teachable and being humble. Now, it sounds weird to say people have told me that I'm humble. I'm not trying to say, look at me. I was humbled because I thought I knew. I was humbled because I thought I was going to be great. I even remember thinking, no offense, Jordan, if you're listening, like I could do that. Why didn't they ask me? Right? You know, and I was immature. I was not the guy for the job, obviously. Um did you want the job prior to Jordan? Yeah, I was like, oh, if Jordan's Jared's leaving, like I could I think I could do this. Oh, okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. I had no idea what I was doing. Yeah. You know, so I was humbled again and again and again, and I'm so thankful for that because I had my wants, my hopes, my dreams, my expectations. And the Lord taught me really quickly and over a long period of time to be humble, but also because I think there was a hunger to know and understand, and I I I'm not necessarily inquisitive, I'm not like, oh, I need to solve puzzles or whatever. Um but I saw a problem and I needed to solve it. Sure. And learning can only happen if somebody is teachable. Uh if that makes sense. Yes, yes. So and I've and I've seen uh situations where people uh uh have authority or are given responsibility and they're not teachable and it crumbles. So I mean looking at looking at uh positive uh uh role models and ones not to replicate, I think teachability was crazy because you could be flexible, you could be content, and you could be learning and like not ever thinking you're too good for something. Yeah, you know, so like plowing snow in Ephraim or you know, picking up dog poop or you know, like scrubbing toilets, and and even Dr. Rodheaver talks about his time scrubbing toilets, like that idea of like not thinking you're too good for something, because what you need to be as a shepherd is a servant. And and when Christ said what he said to the disciples who wanted positions of authority, who want hey, let me sit at your left and right. Yeah, he says the greatest must be the servant of all. That's it. And it's this upside down kingdom, and you have to learn that to be teachable and to be humble and and will and willing to serve in ways and in capacities that the world thinks is beneath you. Yeah. And if the world thinks it's beneath you, you're gonna think it's beneath you and you won't do it. So have the mind of Christ, be humble and teachable. That would be because that would impact everything. And it goes all the way back to that one passage, right? Be humble hum humble and teachable. Um I can't remember exactly the phrase. But that's it, yeah. Because if you're hung uh I okay, also full circle. If if I thought I knew better, then every single person who poured into me would be less effective in transforming me. Because I would meet with Tim and be like, I don't really need that advice, thanks. I'm good. I would meet with David and be like, I'm okay, thanks. Like, I know that already. Like, I don't need there's no more nuance, there's no more I'm good. Thanks, Chip. No, I'm good. Rick, I'm cool. Jesus, no thanks. Um, Rodney, that's cool, but I I I know this already. Like, I'm we're on the same level. Why are you trying to teach me? Like, that would have been a waste of all of their efforts and all of their sacrifice and all of their suffering for me and giving of their time away from other people and their families for me, you know? So don't waste what other people are pouring into you. Be teachable. Because we are the product of others.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:41

We are so a hundred percent. We are, and there's a responsibility with that. If someone's taking the time to pour into you, take that seriously. 100%. Um God has given that person that wisdom and those words to say to you, and they've put the Lord has put that person in your life to do that. Yep. Take it seriously, take it to heart. And that's what I always tell everybody listening is this podcast is meant to be a resource because everyone that comes on here, you know, everybody from someone like yourself who has been in ministry, I wouldn't just count it as just this year, little over a year. I mean, you've been doing this, it's shifted, you've had different modes, but I mean, dude, you've been in it for what, six years? Counting your five years in Utah plus this year. That's six years, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:02:41

Yeah. So I guess if you look at that way, it's not necessarily it's a year and a half as a high school pastor.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:48

Right. And you've done it, and then I've had somebody just this past weekend, Jim Glenn, a local legend, a Titan dude, um, been in pastoral ministry for uh close to 40 years.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:07

Planted a church, a very well-known church around here. Uh, was an executive pastor at a church very well known around here.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:15

Has a well-established recovery ministry around here, just one of the godfathers of pastoring around here. Um, and I always tell them, everybody listening, take these words of wisdom because they're bathed in prayer, they're bathed in experience and bathed in wisdom. Uh, because it's true. Um, so Marcus, thank you for sharing. Thank you for taking us on the journey that you've been on. And I think one's so important that you I don't think you you may have intentionally, but I think the Lord weaved it in there, as he did through your life, of just emphasizing being a part of a body that will disciple you.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:58

Because what happened to you will be the result. Yeah. And so look for that, people. Please look for that. It is so needed. Um, Marcus, thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing all this. Um, excited for you and your ministry. And I know great things lay ahead. Um, and I know you're doing a great job in it. Um, I hear it all the time. I see the fruit because those kids are awesome. Um and um, yeah, thank you for tuning in, everybody.