Ernesto Hernandez-" The Ministry of Presence and Prayer"

In this episode I sit down with Ernesto Hernandez. Born and raised in Baldwin Park, Ca he quickly saw how having a present and active spiritual leader can impact a life. The Lord took Ernesto and his wife from their home to the Marines to eventually placing them in a small community church in San Clemente, Ca where discipleship became a pillar in their life. 

Fast forward 20 years, Ernesto is now the Pastor of El Buen Pastor. A humble church that meets on the same grounds as the church he started with. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Welcome back to Spider Ministry. This is Morgan, your host, and today I have the pleasure, the honor of sitting down with my buddy, longtime friend. We've been friends for since 2014. So we're coming up on 12 years. Um my buddy Pastor Ernesto Hernandez. Amen. We've served together um at a church in San Clemeni, Cornerstone Community Church. We've served in youth ministry together. Um and Ernie, what are you doing now? You're serving where?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Now I am serving as pastor of El Buen Pastor, a uh Hispanic, Spanish speaking ministry that's been around in the community for 50 years. I am the third pastor. Uh we meet at Cornerstone Community Church.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

That's awesome, man. Uh so let's dive into the life of Ernesto Fernandez. Now, wait a minute, hold on. Before we get into that, how long have you been serving in this capacity?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

In this capacity, I've been there. Uh been serving them for five years uh total. Uh three and a half years officially as the pastor.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Okay, gotcha. Okay. Uh so let's let's dive into the world of Ernie. Let's let's be invited into your world. You ready for that? We're gonna find out. We're gonna find out. Uh we may have to edit some stuff out. Um, Ernie, where all right, family life. Where'd you grow up? Uh did you grow up in a believer's home? Uh was faith you know there instilled in the childhood. Uh, how did how did all this start?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

So I'm born in LA, raised in San Gabriel Valley, Baldwin Park, more specifically. Um the hometown of In N Out.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I was gonna say that's a major town there.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

By God's grace. Uh store number one, got In N Out University there. Um so early on, I mean, being Hispanic, was born into the Catholic faith. Uh, we weren't necessarily always practicing, uh, but that was always at the forefront. We uh maybe about uh five years of age, we lived in apartments and we were gonna get new managers. Uh I'm not sure why I remember this story or why I was so excited for them to move in. I didn't know them, didn't know where they were coming from, but I was just maybe just excited about the newness. Uh, when they pulled in, they were gonna move into the apartment next door to us. So I was pretty excited about that. Uh, when they moved in, uh, older retired couple, uh, I started, I asked if they needed help moving in. Uh, I'm sure they thought it was funny. I was five years old. Um, and part of moving in, you know, moving in some of their clothes, I saw uh uh the gentleman had a pair of slip-on penny loafers, and they looked like my Sunday shoes. Uh, you know, they only got worn on Sundays, so I said, Hey, I've got a pair of Sunday shoes. Do you want to see them?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

And it was old were you about this?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

It was five years old.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Five years old.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah, so moving moving next door to us, I just became inseparable with the old man. He uh was uh from Charleston, Illinois, uh Midwest. I I didn't realize at the time, but he was a deacon of the Southern Baptist Church. And then from that point forward, uh we were inseparable, and so he took me everywhere: church, men's meetings, barbecues, uh you name it, um, to go visit people. And so that's really my my background that they he took a personal interest, and they ended up becoming basically not legally, but adopted grandparents, uh, grandparents in the faith, and they raised me and my sister up, they babysat us. Um, and it was just one of those uh Christians loving Christians making an impact on the community. Um every dollar that my mother paid for them to babysit us, my mother was uh a single single parent, they spent it on us. You know, if I if if uh she had to pay that that uh babysitting fee and whatnot, I might not have had a pair of shoes for school, but they turned around and used that same money to buy me a pair of shoes, uh buy me clothes. And so they were very instrumental in my life till about 13. Uh at 13 years of age, my grandmother passed away. And so that became a very uh formative period for me as I'm getting ready to go into high school. They had been bedrock in my life. My mother, being single, worked two jobs, didn't see her as often as I as one would like. Um, and I knew she was sick, my grandmother.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

And this is your biological grandmother.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

No, this is the adopted, okay. Adopted. Her name was Leona Laws. And uh she uh we were, I think they were fumigating the apartments that day, and so she couldn't be there. She was on oxygen and stuff, so they were gonna go to the park and just hang out for a little bit. Um, and I think, you know, looking back on it now, she never intended to come back home. And but I prayed uh to God to ensure that she did and that she was healthy, and and as she started to go into uh her medical emergency, as my grandfather brought her back home, uh, paramedics came and you know, it was live in front of everybody, you know, pulled her out of the car and you know, cut her gown and you know, it was just in full display of everybody. So it was pretty traumatic, traumatic. And, you know, again, saying going into high school as a young man, uh, not knowing the pressures that I would be dealing with, and now all of my support system was was shattered. And so I knew then that I couldn't prevent God from existing, so I wasn't either agnostic or atheist, but I just from that moment forward I refused to talk to God.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

You were mad.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

I was mad. I would not have my grandmother. You took my grandmother, I prayed to you in your name, and you did not deliver. And so I refused to talk to him. I stopped going to church, I stopped affiliating completely.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Where was where was your grandfather during all this?

SPEAKER_00 6:55

You know, obviously, you know, that's this was his high school girlfriend. Uh they had been married more than 50 years. Uh, you know, they he was up in age himself, and so it was traumatic for him. And so he just exited stage left, you know, pretty quickly, and then the family swooped in, and you know, trying to take care of him. And uh again, I'm not biological family, so you keep getting pushed to the outs, pushed to the outs, and then until at some point they just disappeared out of your life, and you're kind of just left to try to figure it all out, you know, at a very young age. And so I was really upset with the Lord. And and again, not that I ever believed he didn't exist, I'm just not speaking to you. Yeah, and you know, many attempts that the Lord had during that time till about my my young 20s, uh, that he attended for different people to to bring me back, but I refused. I just would not go. And uh and so that lasted, you know. I met my my wife at 17. We got together.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Uh how did that happen? Because uh, I mean, yeah, you guys are high school sweethearts.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

So how how just met through in the classroom or yeah, yeah, in the classroom, you know, we were both probably not the the most glamorous students, you know, not not destined to succeed in the world and just doing our thing, you know. Again, inner city, poverty, lack of opportunities, why try? Yeah, uh, and uh, but we met at 17 and uh had our uh not quite sure how, but she got pregnant.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Wonder how that happens.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

It's it's it's a weird it's a it's a miracle, yeah. And I graduate, I decide that because she's pregnant, I'm gonna marry this woman, I'm gonna do the right thing. Because again, I was raised right. And even though I wasn't following the Lord, I still had a moral compass. And and then I also knew what life was like not having a father, and I was not going to repeat that.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Where where was did you have any idea where your dad was?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I never knew him.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Never knew him.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Never knew him.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Um, so yeah, we we had our son, we got married. We just I decided to, I wanted to go to university, but uh, because I had fixed my grades, gotten into the straight and narrow, uh, figured out that I just can't be a young and dumb for the rest of my life, and wanted to set goals. And uh so I decided to go to the military because I couldn't, you know, have a job, be a father, a husband at a young and then spend time with them, you know, and go to school. So uh saw the military as an opportunity. Again, my adopted grandfather was in the army, one of his sons was a Marine, so that's kind of the affinity for me that I started to see the military and serving my country and doing those things, and you know, uh 20 years later, uh retired. But in that process, when Corina and I uh had our second child by the time I was 22.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Um I can't even I can't even fathom that. 20 uh because you were you said 20 years old. That's when your first came out. We were we were uh I had just turned 19. Just turned I can't even fathom because Jack was born when I was 30. I gotta think. All right, I turned 30. 32. Yeah, certainly. And that's my first, so I can't even imagine being 19 and then 20, not even not even that, but 22.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

I was nowhere near ready at that point. What I mean I imagined it was just kind of this moment of I have to grow up.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

When you do, and if you were again, you were raised with certain values that it that you get there.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Uh and obviously having a mom that showed you what working hard looks like.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Correct, yeah. Because I'd even I honestly I just tell you that I remember a conversation with my mom directly when she realized that I was gonna marry this young woman, you know, and uh I I don't think she had an issue necessarily with uh my wife directly, but just getting married at that age, obviously, right? And and the troubles that are before you uh that are potentials. And so I don't think she wanted me to get married, period. But uh then I told her, I said, but you realize that it's almost like you're the reason I'm getting married, because I saw how she struggled on her own raising kids, I wasn't going to pass that forward. I knew as a as a child what it was like to not have a father, I wasn't going to pass that forward to my child.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

What what so what what do you mean? What was it like not having a father?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Well, you know, I've I've asked friends that had fathers, and uh even friends that had uh fathers that were alcoholics, drug addicts, you know, uh you name the vice, they probably had it. Uh maybe weren't what we would consider the best, maybe even there was physical abuse or verbal abuse or those types of things. And as a young man, I was stuck trying to um uh wrestle and reconcile whether everybody has a good day. Everybody has a good day. Yeah, so even that person that we would universally consider a bad father has a good day, sure, and so my friend has a good memory. At least one, you know, along with a whole bunch of bad for sure. Sure. And so my question to myself was which is worse? Is I certainly wasn't abused because I didn't have somebody to abuse me in that sense. Right, but I also don't have a memory.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

So then what do you think looking back now, obviously decades later, what did what was his name? Whose name? Uh your your adopted grandfather. What was his name?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

His name was Viral Laws. What did Virle do for you? Looking back uh looking back on it now, obviously the the first and foremost thing, the best thing that he did for me was intro introduce me to a Lord to the Lord. I had a personal relationship that was the first time I I had uh witnessed a difference between religion and life relationship. Yeah, uh the difference between being a reader of the word and a doer of the word. He his faith was active, visible. Uh you know, I remember he was so revered and honored as a person, as a man of character within our community, that again, as a child, I remember visiting a friend that lived in the apartments, and uh his grandfather was visiting. His grandfather would be older than my grandfather. But I remember when he was leaving the house, uh his daughter asked him, Where are you going, Dad? And she says, I'm going downstairs to talk with grandpa because that became his name. Yeah, he was grandpa and she was grandma to the entire community. Most people didn't even know their first name because that's who they became. So even that became their title, that became the the honorific because they just loved on everybody.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Um there's not a lot of those out there.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

There's there's not, and they're gems, and and you know, so he showed me how to work because he would take me around. Like I said, uh he was already retired at this point in his career, uh, but he was the manager of the complex, so he was uh cleaning, getting prepped for the next tenant, constantly upkeep, and I would just tag along.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, uh Mr.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Miyagi and Danielson. That's it. I would just would follow along, and then we started a a we started a a to pick up cardboard and recycle. We'd pick we bought an old pickup truck and got a couple of liquor stores lined up and we'd go pick up cardboard and go sell it, and he'd give me a whole dollar, and I was happy, you know, just just pleased with myself of uh, you know, just working hard and then having something to contribute to the family, and um showed me how to be a man, how to love his wife, how to love people, respect people, uh, how to be a a patriot, be an American, uh, leave a la lasting legacy. That's what he taught me.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

A lot of people think that it's just so hard to do to do what this man did for you, and it's really not. There it's being present and being intentional. That's it. That's what it's present and intentional with the time that he had with us.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah, I think it's the mental step, is the hardest, right? Is to commit to it and just do it. Yeah, you know, a lot of us fantasize about what we could do if we, you know, fill in the blank, had the time, money, whatever. Uh he didn't have any of it.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

He just chose to live. And and I just happened to live next door. You know, we can call that a coincident or a divine appointment. And he raised me for the next eight years of my life and gave me a father figure, an example of what it is to be a man, uh, be responsible, uh, not put out excuses, don't be a victim, be a man of your word, let your yes be yes and your no be no. You know, um, and like I said, once he disappeared from my life, you know, that's really where my life just went downhill because I didn't care about anything. I didn't care about school, I didn't care about sports, I didn't care. You know, girls didn't even weren't weren't like an important aspect. They were always around and available. So, but I didn't, you know, I respected them too. Right. So I wasn't that guy either. Uh um, and but like I said, I got with my wife, got married, joined the military, traveled the world, did 20 years. Uh I I specifically remember when we decided I was in Japan.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Oh, I love this story. It's such a good story.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah, I was in I was in Japan and and and I was visiting because I was uh auditing readiness of just different commands, and and we were arguing about stuff that just young people argue about, probably financial, probably just whatever, jealousies and stuff that because we were young, we were kids. Um, and all of a sudden I find myself traveling the world. I'd never traveled probably farther than a hundred miles from my house. Now I'm on the other side of the world, you know, just a wild adventure. And I remember it was Monday morning, and I'm trying to find I always when I work, I always have to have some white noise, something. So I turn on the TV or the radio or something. I'm not really focused on it, but I just need, I can't have complete silence. And so I'm flipping the channels, but everything is tape delayed, and it's the only thing we're getting is a bunch of preachers talking at me, and I'm just flipping the channels because I'm not about that life, you know. And I remember arguing with my wife on the phone, and and now she's turning the corner and she's talking about, you know, we just need to get to church. And was she raised in church? She wasn't. She had visited many of the churches, you know, again, uh born Catholic, uh, had visited, she was on the uh on the Christian on the uh Protestant side of the faith in her family, but they didn't really practice either. Um but I think what was happening for her is since we were struggling in our marriage, uh, because we were barely adults, if you want to classify as that, and then you know, we're growing as as individuals and trying to learn how to manage a household of two when there's really four kids in the house, you know. And um so I think when she was starting to look towards church, she was looking towards church and men and an influence that they might have on me in my life, and maybe my demeanor would change or the way that I'd act and comported myself.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Because obviously she knew of your adopted grandfather and influence, and so she probably was looking for somebody similar to that.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Of course, you know, everybody wants stability first, right? Right, and security and and those types of things. And the problem I had with it is that I didn't what I didn't hear is I am hungry for a personal relationship with Jesus, I want to raise my children in the church to have faith. It what I was hearing was I need to get you in the church so the men can fix you. And so again, that on top of it-I don't need fixing, I don't need fixing. I, you know, I was never one of those guys that ever said I'm a good guy, but I did the inverse and said, I'm not a bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

I'm not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

I'm not that bad. And uh everything was manageable, everything was kind of in control as what we see ourselves being in. And but again, everything was falling apart. I was becoming depressed, I was becoming uh more aggressive in my behavior towards people. I mean, obviously the military appreciates that, uh, and so that gets applauded, uh and and you know, you get promotions and ribbons and applauded for it, you know, when you can be that guy sometimes in that culture. And so I it was I was having difficulty leaving that at work and not bringing it home. And but I didn't know it because I can't see it, and then uh, but through God's grace, you know, flipping those channels and all there was was tape delay from Sunday services, and so I left it on because I need noise. And the Lord was talking to me at that time while I was trying to get some work done in my hotel room. And shortly thereafter, I called my wife and I said, Go ahead and find a church, we'll give it a shot.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

And you guys came from Baldwin Park, you you enlist, and the Lord brought you to where? To beautiful San Clemente, Camp Pendleton, Camp Pendleton. That's right, that's it, and so she's she's here, San Clemente, Camp Pendleton. At that point in time, what? This is around 90. This is around 98. 98, so still sleepy town at that point. Very good. Telega hadn't been built, it was starting to get built.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Uh yeah, I thought I thought San Clemente was El Camino Real.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, yeah. I mean, at one point it it really was. Growing up here, I mean, shoot, I remember when the Vistermosa bridge was just that, and it was dirt on top, and like that's right. I showed Allie a picture from my parents' uh deck in Marblehead. I'm like, hey, you know what, you know what that is? She's like, is that where the outlets are? I'm like, yeah. It's just land. Just absolute land. Um, and so you go from Baldwin Park, City, Urban to Sleepy Beachtown, beautiful. Paradise. You're in Japan. How long had you been in Japan when this really happened?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

When this is happening, I was only there for 30 days. I was doing the West Coast tour, so I went to uh Japan and back to Hawaii and then back to California.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Okay. And so you're you guys are wrestling around with this. She's wanting to go to church. Uh, you're fine, the spirit is nudging you. Ernie, come on. Pushing and pulling, whatever it's pulling. And then you finally tell her, All right, find a church. Find a home church in San Clemente.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

That's right. She tells me about this little church that she found, and she's telling me geographically like where it is, and I know kind of what she's talking about because we used to go to the CVS there and used to be Ride Aid prior to that. Uh so we turn off on that corner street there, uh, you know, to go get prescriptions or whatnot. And but I couldn't picture a church being there, like in my mind's eye at the time.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

And uh it was a sleeper.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It was a little sleeper, it was just a little building and a little cottage. Yeah, and uh, but I remember at that point when I got back, I called the church and I spoke to the church secretary for a little bit, and then I spoke to uh Pastor Ron, had a great conversation. You know, I told them, I said, uh, you know, I come from a Southern Baptist background uh tradition, and you know, I'm used to wearing three-piece suits and ties, and you know, and he says, Well, he says, You can wear that if you want to. And he goes, We won't, we won't look down upon it. I said, Well, what uh I said, What are the ushers? What is their their uh dressed up outfit, and he starts telling me about these Hawaiian shirts, and I think he's joking with me. I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

So, for reference, Pastor Ron, who you're talking about, this is a guy that will show up and preach barefooted.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Barefooted, barefooted, yeah. Yeah, you know, I I think it's funny sometimes, you know, because I've I I wear flip-flops, you know, I think everybody does here, and I struggled because it took me probably about four years before I ever wore flip-flops to church.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Well, here, can you share because this is one of my favorite stories. Yeah. Your first Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

My first Sunday, right? So you get back. Yeah, so I get back, had this conversation with Ron. We talk, you know, a little bit of theology and uh get get to feeling, and I told him, I said, well, we're committed to come and visit. And uh, you know, young Marine come in my uh, you know, uh Chinos and a polo shirt, and you know, and uh ready to go to church. And as soon as we pull in, I see somebody running out of the church, uh, or actually the cottage to the sanctuary in a grass skirt and coconut bra. And I just turned around and looked at my wife and asked her where she brought us. Because this is, I've never seen anything like this. This is not okay. Uh, I do see a lot of Hawaiian prints, so I'm starting to believe that he wasn't joking with me. Um and then I see a second and a third guy running around again in the hula grass skirts and coconut bras, and I'm sitting there like, what is happening right now? But I'm a man of my word. I committed to to come, I committed to see this thing through. It was already too late, probably, to find anywhere else to go, so we're we're stuck. And I go in, and you know, uh although we can look at those first impressions and say, wow, and could have pulled out and left, I'm I'm really glad that we stayed. And what was actually happening at the time is uh the assistant pastor at the time, uh, an elder just recently retired, uh Steve Crowley and his wife Sharon were going to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary. And so the church was sending them to Hawaii, which brings in all the grass skirts and and stuff like that. But that was just a beautiful uh uh image for me to capture that I was probably outright scared in the in the in the inception and then uh and then just probably overjoyed on how much they loved on each other, and and and I just I we kept coming back and you know, I don't know, what is it, 27 years later, we're still there?

SPEAKER_01 26:45

27, so when did because you knew of God you you were had you were mad at him for a long time, didn't want to talk to him. When did you take hold of your faith? When did when when was that come to Jesus moment for you? Was it uh before this? Was it after this? What did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, so after that, as I started to explore my faith, because there was still some deep-rooted sin that I was honestly not ready to give up. Um, and it was a conscious decision. I knew that that I would have to give that up because it was not okay. And so I was wrestling with it on am I ready to give certain things up that that even though I maybe subconsciously knew that they weren't okay, yeah, but but I'd compromised and and I enjoyed it, and so that's where I was at. But what I could not do is is in my my estimation is go to church and be a hypocrite. I I just that did not that did not drive with me. And so I'm sitting there struggling with it, and I specifically remember one day driving, thinking this through, and I revisited my statement of saying I'm not a bad guy. Again, I'm not uh self-centered enough to say that I'm a good guy, but that's basically what I'm saying when you say you're not a bad guy. And so I took from that and I started to move advance forward, and I said, you know, what kind of this whole religion thing, it seems like a a bit of a crock to me in the sense that the life could be boring, my perception at the time. Um it could be lonely, my perception. Um and you can live your entire life seeking the faith and then really not finding it, one worst case scenario, two is not believing it once you find it, not agreeing with it. Um but then moreover, if you decide to not believe and you live your life in a split second before you die, if you repent and ask for forgiveness, my scriptures tell me that he will forgive me. And I thought that was not compatible with my thinking. Like, how can I live as evil as I want to, as foul as I want to, as self-centered as I want to, and then the last second pull a get-out-a-card, uh get out of jail free card, but yet somebody else that was faithful their entire life has a misstep at the end, he doesn't make it. And so I was wrestling with this this this uh uh position, yeah, and then I realized that one, my view or perception that the individual that lived their entire life for the Lord was a boring life. How would I know? I've never tried it yet as an adult, but I had witnessed it in my grandparents, right? How I and then in the other person that if I live as foul as I want to, and in the last second I repent, he will receive me. I know that. But now what am I putting faith in? Am I putting faith in that the Lord would forgive me? Or that I know the second before I'm going to go to have enough time to repent. And then if that's true and I am able to do that, I still have to mean it.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

And another question is when is that lesson?

SPEAKER_00 30:47

And when is it, right? And so I was putting far more faith in this get out of jail free card than I was in Jesus and his redeeming work. And once I stumbled across that in my own thinking uh and discernment, then it became easy.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Were these conversations you were going back and forth with with Ron?

SPEAKER_00 31:09

A lot of conversations with Ron, lots of conversations with my wife, our elders. We had uh a great set of men that were uh certainly broken men, you know, flawed, and and uh but they took a personal interest in a young man that was trying to live right and had a young family and was marine, and uh so they were you know there to support me and and and usher me along, you know, and that's really what the faith is. We're all progressing on the path, right? And some of us are just a little a step or two ahead or a step or two behind. Yeah, but it's the same path, right? Headed in the same direction, right? And let's just walk together for a little while, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

So so seems like you planted roots because it in one capacity or another, you remained 27 years later, you're still you're still around.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

I did in those 27 years, I did have one year that I lived in Japan, a year that I was deployed in Afghanistan, multiple deployments around, and then four years in 29 Palms. But this remained home, but most of the other than the 20 29 palms four years, we lived in San Clemente.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Yeah, and it and this church, no matter where you were in the world, it sounds like uh this was an anchor for you. It was definitely an anchor. This is home, it was home because this is where it seems like there were two parts of your life that were spiritually impactful. One, your adopted grandfather, and two this church. Absolutely. This this is where your faith may have been introduced by your um adopted grandfather, but then it was grown by this church.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

It was nourished and edified, and I was equipped, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

So let's talk about that part, that that word equipped. So you have your come to Jesus moment, you are getting to know and getting counsel and learning from uh these elders, Ron, um who not perfect men but faithful men. Absolutely. Um what is that leading you to do now in your life at that point? Where how are you growing? How are you serving? What what what is that transformation in your mind happening there?

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Right. Well, for me, I think that uh I think all of us that are called know we're called or should know we're called.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

And you discern that call. And and for many of us, we know it all our lives. Yeah, um, we just ignore it and try to put it away and get busy elsewhere. Uh, but if you're called, you're called and it doesn't change and God doesn't change his mind. Uh and then the other the the second step there is that somebody has to acknowledge, uh, recognize what the Lord is doing in your life, um, and then give you opportunity. And you know, usually uh I didn't I've never sought out any type of church, whether you know, mega, small, whatever. It's just I was at a small church before and I landed on a smart church now, and um just appreciated and and watched how uh focused on the men on how they lived. And again, like we said, we we've yet to find the perfect man, but they were faithful men and they were they were uh making significant visible strides to follow Jesus. Yeah, and that was commendable. Um, and so um early on, you know, I just had a gift with numbers, and so um Ed Lahat and uh took took me under his wing. He was one of our elders, and he would take care of the finances and taught me church finances and church administration and those types of things, just as I would volunteer and just always wanted to be connected. And, you know, even as young kids, you still you know wash our cars in our front yard or whatever. But you know, Karina and I would go to Cornerstone to wash our car so that we could wash Ron's truck.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Uh, because you know, it's it's a wonderful thing to be in a clean vehicle. Yes, you know, and and we didn't have the finances at the time, but we had time. And if we're washing one vehicle, it didn't take too much time to wash two, right? And we could bless our pastor that way, and so just constantly trying to be engaged, uh, being open and transparent with all of my flaws, the the issues that the family was was uh dealing with constantly, the stresses of living. Uh, because if you're going to live with a group of people in a flock, in a tribe, in a church, um, if you really want to get to know them, you've got to let them get to know you. Yeah, you've got to be open and transparent. A lot of people don't do that because uh you become vulnerable. And in that vulnerability, you're you're susceptible to be hurt. And so most people won't do it. But we decided to be, we were all in.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

And we didn't know what that meant and where it would lead. Um, I thought as I was progressing in the Marine Corps that that I would get to 20 years, retire, and honestly, I thought I'd be a missionary, is what I believed the Lord was preparing me for. Um, because the beautiful thing of getting a pension is one that it's there. Yeah, I don't have to go raise those finances, they're there. Uh, you know, my biggest concern would be to find an ATM in a third row country or wherever the Lord sent me. Um, and you know, the pension isn't enough to live off of here in America, and especially in California and South Orange County, but it certainly prevents you from having to do a lot of things you don't want to do. Right. Um, and so that was the path, and that's where we were heading. That was the trajectory. You know, the Lord started to open the doors to send me to other countries within the Marine Corps to experience that. So I really thought that was confirmation. Um then I decided to retire and stayed at at Cornerstone and and uh was helping, you know, with some structure, some programming, things like that. And it just uh the Lord always intervened at the right time for different reasons that some that I understood clearly, others that I didn't then, I know now. Um, and then uh I remember the last time that I returned uh from Africa with with Ron, uh the Lord really opened my eyes to the Hispanic community that they were woefully underserved in South Orange County. And then mind you, I am Hispanic and I was raised speaking Spanish, but over the 20 years of the Marine Corps I had lost it. Yeah, I could carry on a conversation, but you knew I didn't speak it fluently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Now let's really put this in context because um uh Marine for 20 years, but within that 20 years, you went and got your bachelor's. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Got your master's, started my master's, but didn't finish it because I got deployed.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

You didn't finish your master's?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

I didn't not at that time, not while I was in the Marine Corps.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Okay. Now you got your bachelor's in what?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Uh bachelor's in business management.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Okay, and then masters MBA. MBA. Um and this was to just prepare and get more educated, and and was there a direct reason for all this? Was it was you were looking for a career outside of the Marines, uh, once you retired? What was this for?

SPEAKER_00 38:55

So obviously it was for advancement, it was always part of my plan, was to get educated at some point. Um, you know, first to graduate out of my family with a degree that was always a goal. Uh my mentors in the military had asked me early on when they seemed that I just would work hard and and you know, work all night if necessary. They asked me what I wanted, and I said, school, that's all I wanted. Um, I I didn't realize that I'd do a career in the Marine Corps. I never uh discounted it, but I didn't plan for it. And so I knew I needed a degree if I wanted to uh have a better job or those types of things as a young man, you know, to raise my family. And you know, just business called to me. And uh I didn't know what type of sector or business venture I would get into. I just knew that, you know, uh maybe early on I thought, you know, uh business equals money, money equals power. I have none of either. I'd like to get some. Yeah. And uh so I at least study it, right? And uh, but the management side it really helped me in the Marine Corps because I started to what I was learning, I was able to apply right away. And people started to notice. And so I started to get advanced uh um ahead of schedule. Um after 10 years, I became an officer after I got my degree, uh, a warrant.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

And uh so what specifically does warrant mean?

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Uh a warn officer is somebody that's a specialist in the military. So you have uh lieutenant to general are really generalists, they have a job, they're trained to do something, but when they arrive, it's they're they're subject to whatever the commander at the time needs.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Um and but for war officers, you serve a specific function, okay, and you have a specialty. If you you're still susceptible to the commander's intent, but if he deviates you, you're not getting another one of me.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

You're getting one.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

And so um that protects us a little bit on what the job that we're supposed to do. And my job was was uh manpower personnel officer. So I was uh responsible to ensure that you know uh all of our Marines were were joined and transferred, received, processed, getting entitlements from uh entitlement systems, and then also manpower projections for you know what are we going to need in the outyears? You know, just like any regular business, you if you need a manager, you have to either go hire them or make them. In the military, we make them.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And so we have to forecast, you know, if the guy, if the gentleman or young lady joins the military on this day, what schools can we get them to so that they can answer the requirement five years down the road?

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Now, after at your 20-year, what what did you retire as?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I I uh was able to achieve the rank of Chief Warren Officer 4, but I didn't hold I didn't wear it for two years, uh, which is mandatory to retire with it, so I was reduced to Chief Warrant Officer Three.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Okay. And what why was that?

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Uh when you pick up rank and the and the officer ranks or and those senior billets, uh, you have to wear it for two years to be able to retire with it. Um so I earned it, I was promoted, but you need to wear it for two years before you retire. My the circumstances of my retirement didn't lend itself to wear it for two years, so you get retired at the next lower rank.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Got it. How long did you wear it for?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Uh I think I wore it for a year.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Uh you want to do one more year?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

No, I was it was it was just it was time to go, you know. When when there's clarity, there's clarity.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

You're like, I'm done, I'm out of here. That's it. I want my shorts and my sandals, and I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Yeah, so they they had offered me a job in Quantica, which which uh which would have required, you don't do cold. I don't do cold. I'm a topical person for sure. Uh it interestingly enough, it's to be on the same team that I was on when I was in Japan. Oh but now instead of being you know one an A-team member, I would be running the team. Okay. Uh however, uh it at one point it was split, the team was split between half of it was at Camp Pendleton, half in Camp Lejeune, and then then we would split the hemisphere or the world by hemispheres. Because technology was taking off, then and and our headquarters is in Quantico, they consolidated the teams, uh, which was a natural progression. I just didn't want to go to Quantico.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

You didn't want to deal with snow. I didn't want to deal with snow. You don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

My daughter was a senior that year that I would have to transfer. Uh my wife works at the Naval Hospital. Uh, she's never left California. Um, she's never dealt with snow. Uh, you know, all of our family's here, our friends are here. Certainly have friends there, but um, if if I took that job, I'd also be on the road for 200 days a year.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

So then there was no reason for her to to to. Transfer with me. So I would be basically a geographical bachelor for the next three years. And so although I was committed to my job for 20 years and I did everything that they asked me, I stayed operational the whole time. Uh at this point I had to choose my family. Yeah. Above above the career. And so I was at my 20 and I thanked them. I I told them that I was honored and humbled uh to be selected for that job, but I just couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

And uh so I retired in July or January 1st of 2015.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

So I had known you less than a year. You had known me less than a year. Wow. Okay. So then after you retire, you finish your master's, and then you pursue your doctorate.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

I began to pursue my doctorate. Yeah, so I landed into the construction trades that uh because of our pastor has family connections to the construction trades, and his son called me, asked me where I was. I told him I was planning to retire. He said, Hey, I'm planning to uh launch my company. Do you want to come and help? And so I said yes. So that kind of solidified my career in construction, heavy civil. Um, and so the first thing that I went back to, and this is just how faithful God is, is my entire dream, my entire life was to go study at USC. That's where I wanted to be. Fight on. Yeah, wanted to fight on, you know, uh, and and but obviously it's a bridge too far for a young, poor Hispanic. But now, by God's grace, being in this company, construction, you know, they were starting to cease uh other ways of thinking, like lean, six sigma, theories of constraint, continuous process improvement. So they sent me to USC to get a certificate, a black belt in Six Sigma.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Um, and so that was my fulfillment. I got literally to study at USC campus at Baterby School of Engineering, um, and then uh continue to help build the company. Um then I decided to leave and for the first time in my life to be a full-time student, uh, got accepted to the MBA program at Pepperdine, uh, went there and did that for uh till I completed it and then rejoined the company at that point in a new position. Uh, and it just kept growing the company until I was called elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

And so then um during that time, after graduation, you went for your doctorate. What was your doctorate in? Something very different.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Very, very different. It's uh it's a doctorate in worship studies.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

And where was that in?

SPEAKER_00 46:51

That is in Jacksonville, uh, Florida. It's uh the Robert Weber School or uh Institute of Worship Studies.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

So what does that mean, worship studies? Are you are you learning how to play the guitar and sing? Like what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 47:03

You can. But no, it's just uh, you know, it's it's a a uh it's an interesting community, it's a first of its kind. Dr. Robert Weber uh did a lot of work, a lot of study in just you know, worship, worship arts. What does it mean to worship? What is our right response? How do we glorify God? Uh he started to look at, you know, um he called it the the ancient future way of the church as we progress. And so he started really to study how did the ancient church worship, what was their gatherings like? And doing a lot of that work, uh he wrote a a uh a great book for anybody that's looking that that hasn't looked at how the the church global operates, uh, but it's called the how uh it's uh uh Christians on the Canterbury Trail. And it basically takes you from uh being low church to what high church is, uh, you know, a little more liturgical, the vestments, the sacraments, those types of things that, you know, sometimes in our Protestant side of the faith we minimize. We make it common, uh and and we don't um and I think that's I think that's just natural in the way that we view things because we um elevate the word right um above all else, and which I agree with.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Uh and then, but how did they apply the word?

SPEAKER_01 48:43

I remember I remember one time you and I were walking around San Juan, uh just down the street, and we stopped into uh Basilica, the Basilica.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

The Basilica.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Um there in San Juan, and we walk in, and of course, just like any other Catholic uh church or basilica, the first thing that you bump into is the holy water, right? And not that I agree that this is actually holy, right? I think we're in agreement on that, that this water is not holy in itself, but what is it meant to do? It's meant at least hopefully, what the what what you're supposed to take away is that you are now entering a place of worship. Pause for a moment. Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

It's it really revolves around sacred space.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Right. That there there is some sacredy, and don't, and in one part of history within the church, we went too far and saying everything is holy and untouchable and everything. We've kind of the pendulum swung the other way of now we have churches meeting in office buildings and whatnot, and everything's common, we break down and everything, which there's nothing wrong with that, but there needs to be a medium of wait a minute, what happens in this room is holy. What happens in this room is God glorifying and needs to be respected, right? This pulpit that is used to carry the Bible of the preacher, that's a holy thing. Amen. Right? Like not the object is, but what it's doing. Sure. The instrument that it's being, right? Um, and I think that's something that we have, I don't know, it we've lost, but I think it's slowly coming back.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Yeah, so I think that that the for most of us that weren't raised in the high church, you know, whether it be you know Catholic, Lutheran, um Anglican, you know, uh high church that wears vestments, have priests, uh, have an altar, uh, have all the sacraments. Um, again, we discount some of them as not necessary. Sure. Um, and just like you said, a a the church is the people, not the building.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Um, and so we can gather anywhere. Right. But what do we do when we gather, right? And so as of late, I've been really focusing on edifying one another.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

And so sometimes you start to think about, you know, how did we get here? How did we get to the way we do things? Um, and some people would always say that there's the sacred and then there's the secular, but we're one. So there's not really a separation. I might just not say certain words in certain places, but I'm still that same person.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Uh I didn't express myself a certain way because out of respect, what have you, for somebody. But because they're together, then you have to see is it good or is it bad? Is it necessary? Is it excessive? I'll give you an example. I ran into somebody and we just I was just thinking about vestments itself, whether it's the high church vestments or something like a uh Dutch reform robe that is more like a more uh the pastoral robe, more of the uh pulpit robe, uh uh Geneva robe of a judge, right? Um, and or academia. And that comes out of the Protestant Reformation, yeah, academic movement, uh, you know, people used to not just wear a suit and tie to preach, but they wore a suit and tie to to a baseball game. Yeah, you know, just everything was a little bit more heightened and sophisticated than what we do now. That doesn't mean it's bad.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Uh, but if we've lost something, did we lose it because it was unnecessary? And you really got to dive into figure that out. And so, as I've been, I really appreciate visiting uh, you know, our brothers and sisters across the spectrum of our faith. And it really started where I was invited to become the C COO of uh Worship Leader Magazine, Worship Leader Media. And through uh Dr. Fromm, he introduced me to so many different pastors, so many different denominations uh that we were serving. And so now it was like it was no longer, I may not be part of that denomination, right, but I'm serving that denomination. Yeah, I'm introducing them to each other and seeing how we are far more alike than we are apart. And then you ask yourself the question of what's important, right? And for people like myself that were born Catholic, sometimes we reject anything that looks, smells, feels Catholic. Right. Because of our aversion to Catholicism.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Well, an Anglican is not Catholic, but they look Catholic.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

If you sound like exactly if you don't know any better, right, you just don't know, right? And so, but you're rejecting it all right without investigation, right? Uh, and so what uh what I found at at the Robert Weber Institute of Worship Studies is we studied together, we broke bread together, we prayed together, we worshiped together, we got to know each other, and how did you choose that branch, that denomination, that some people were born in it, some people chose it, and all of it was beautiful when you get to know each other.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Why did you choose this over a doctorate in theology, biblical studies? Um why did you choose this?

SPEAKER_00 54:46

I think it I think it was because I was looking for that authentic application, right? And so I too, for many years of my life, rejected the vestments and the high church because I didn't know. Yeah, but then I started to reconcile my life, and guess what? In the Marine Corps, we have a lot of traditions, we have a lot of customs and courtesies that aren't written law, but it's things that we do because it's who we are. Yeah, and I don't know too many people that don't enjoy a military parade.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

The pageantry, sure, the precision, the practice that it takes to pull that off. And so when you look at it from that lens, you start to have a little bit more appreciation to our brothers and sisters in high church, yeah. And and the procession, like you were talking about with the cross or the crucifix, the Bible, and the candles. Like we don't do that on the Protestant side of the faith. But is it wrong? Yeah, I don't think so. You know what I'm saying? Is it necessary? Nah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so so that's the divide. And but how do you apply your faith? And so I always wrestle with the word. And like I said, right now I'm I I've been in that that vein of is the church, and I'm talking about mine and what my my flock that I've been uh charged with is are we too man-centered? Because if you look at the a conventional service, it's we sing a couple songs, and then usually a man talks to us for a couple of minutes and then we close.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Well, where's the edification of one another there? If by statistics it says that everybody will forget my sermon by Tuesday. So my my my my study may have um it edified me. It might edify my family, it'll edify my friends because they're seeing my life live through those messages because I preach it to myself first. But how do you carry it forward? Right. You know, 2 Timothy 2 2 tells us to find men trusted, faithful, that you can teach. So they can in turn take it and teach. And I look at the trajectory of both Cornerstone Community Church that's been around for I think just over 30 years, as that entity, uh, and then you've got El Bum Pastor that's been around for 50 years. Yeah, that's not possible for one generation. You know, we see I uh you know, my heart struggles with the church global is losing the buildings that they meet in that are in the center of town because they're too expensive to upkeep, or the property value is so high that you can sell it and then go get a warehouse up in the hills or what have you, a little bit farther out of skirt. So then how do we make an impact on our community when you became a destination?

SPEAKER_01 58:23

Absolutely because the church at one point had a much greater influence within society than it does now, it was involved in marriage a lot more than it is now, it was involved in conflict, it was involved in so much more. I mean, there's a reason why how many cemeteries are on church properties, right? I mean, the church was at the center of society. That's the reason why they were placed there.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

In in at least Western philosophy, Western world, as we settled Western America, you would see and you would find that as communities were still spraying up, the church building was at least the second building that went up. Yep, only second to the jailhouse.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

Yeah. Yeah, the church was absolutely, and we've lost that.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

And we that was the center of town, and it wasn't just the gathering place for church. Yeah, most schools began uh in that building. In a church, in the church, even even adult school, adult school, uh uh uh equipping the saints in music, everything was there, the poets, the artists, everything was happening there, the celebrations, the weddings, all of life's uh milestones were happening at church.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

That that goes into a whole uh we took a class. Um, I have a book here somewhere. Um I don't know the name of the book. But we took a our our church um used to do uh classes and we were the subject was um dang it. I wish I had the book. Is the book here? Strange New World by Carl Truman. Did you uh read this? I've not read that one. It is a fantastic, it's it's um it is a fantastic book, and what Truman argues is about the subject we're talking about is how the church had so much influence, and as society has become more secularized, how the church has lost influence and what that's done. And he's a um PhD University of Aberdeen, uh professor of biblical and religious studies at Grove City College. Um he has tons of accolades and whatnot, but fantastic study. Fantastic. I highly recommend it because this is the subject he dives into, and we had a class at our church about this, about what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

Yeah, just think about it this way, from a social context.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

And that's where he approaches it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

Right. Yeah, the social context tells us that you met your wife statistically at church before. Today it's online.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Where did you get married back then?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

In the church. You know, it was blessed by the church, it was blessed. It was just it was a different life for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah. So at this time, as you're going through your doctorate, um, being exposed to these ideas, learning, being nourishing this. Um were you still where things had shifted? Was the missionary idea put aside, or or was that still in play, or were you now focused on pastoring locally in the community that you've been in now for 20-something years?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Well, it's an interesting thing with the Lord when he puts something in your heart and we plan on how we're gonna get there, he laughs, right? You know, uh I didn't know how the two would converge. And so I thought, you know, we've been uh involved with New Dawn communities together. Um, and so as we traveled to Kenya and Tanzania to visit our brothers and sisters there, um, I thought that that was confirmation, not fulfillment of my mission, but confirmation that that's where I would go.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

And but that's the thing, right? We're always thinking that from a missionary standpoint or a mission standpoint is that we must go. But like I told you, when I came back, is where my eyes were opened afresh, yeah, and I saw the need here. And so there was a community on the outskirts of my current community that was underserved.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

And here's that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

And that's the Hispanic community.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

So talk about that. What so how are how were they or are they continually being underserved? What what at that moment, how were you planning on serving them? Were you gonna plant a church? Were you what what what were you what'd you do with it?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Yeah, so one thing that I knew from an early start, I didn't know what it meant, but most of us get what are known as prophetic words that we don't have full comprehension of of what the Lord put implants in you. But I had been told that I would not build uh I would not I would not start something new. My mission was to rebuild an altar. I didn't know what that meant. I don't know. You just I just didn't know. I just knew that that was the mission is rebuild an altar. And um, so that just was writing for probably about five years leading up to this point. And this is where the points converged is that I realized that I didn't have to go anywhere to be a missionary. I didn't have to go anywhere to love on my community, I didn't have to go anywhere to love on my neighbor that I didn't know. Yeah, that didn't speak the same language as I did. Um, and so my my first attempt with Pastor Ron is that our building uh was underutilized.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

And it's in the heart of the community, and the Hispanics, the Hispanic uh uh sector of our town is in that area. And so it was really a slap in the face every day that I felt, I started to feel like I was invading somebody else's community every Sunday morning. And so that was the burden on my heart. And so Ron and I prayed about it. We called on a couple of uh Spanish-speaking pastors that we knew, invited them to lunches and breakfasts, and basically offered up the building, the geographic location, uh to do ministry, not to move, not to transition. Uh, we spoke to uh if they were affiliated with a with another church, um uh we spoke to those pastors to let them know that we're not trying to steal the flock, we're trying to enhance the flock, give another location. Where sometimes I think that that if we're doing kingdom work, Morgan. And we don't care who gets the credit. My Lord is well supplied.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

My Lord lead needs for nothing. But it's when we become selfish, and this thing is mine. We built this.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

That that we start to see a life of lack instead of the life of abundance. And again, we had a resource, the building, and nothing else. And so we were reaching out to other ministries to minister to the flock that we could not reach. And uh we started a Bible study for a while, and then it kind of fizzled out, and then we tried to just get them together. And for some reason, they just would not do ministry together. And I was baffled by it. I didn't understand it. I understand it a little bit more now on why that is. Um, but I only saw the Catholic Church serving that community, and there was a problem for me. And they needed to be served, they needed to be loved, they needed to be introduced to the gospel, they needed to be introduced to Jesus, and they needed to see that lived out. Um, what when I started to walk down this path, and I would talk to pastors, uh, ministry leads, and I would make the comment like, um I'm serving at a Hispanic church, and that automatically uh became what they heard was that I serve a Spanish-speaking church. That's not what I said, that's what they heard.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

Because you can be Hispanic and not speak Spanish, right? Uh and but they happened to be Spanish-speaking congregation, and so it was one of the groups that we had invited, and they were having complications at their current uh current location. Um, and so we invited them to move, and they did, and this is just right before COVID, and all I did was go down to say hello. Literally, I crossed, I I always say I crossed the Black River because I literally crossed the parking lot to go visit my brothers and sisters and say hola.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

Ministry of presence, ministry of presence your adopted grandfather had a ministry of presence with you, and you are repeating that with going down, literally, he was going down how the property's laid out, and saying hello, which is a ministry of presence, and just sit there and make them feel comfortable and loved and appreciated and welcomed.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

Um, because I didn't know this at the time, but they were actually founded. I've now found this out that Iglesia El Buen Pastor was founded on our church property 50 years ago. But I didn't know that then, I know that now. And uh so initially was went down there to serve. I can't even really speak Spanish. I certainly couldn't preach a message. Um, and then the pastor at the time got sick during COVID, um, a really rare form of uh leukemia. So he'd been serving there for quite a long time. Yeah, so the founding pastor, and this is a really interesting dynamic because again, there's the ministry, the missionary connection again. So the ministry was founded by Philip Kavanaugh, right? That is a Scotsman from England by by way of uh uh Bolivia for 14 years that he served there as a missionary, and hit the church that he founded there was called El Buen Pastor. Then, when he, of all things, just the way the Lord works, uh Capital Valley Christian School here in Capistrano contracted this English Scotsman to come to America to teach the kids Spanish.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

I didn't know that part.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:05

Yeah, sir. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

And so he came wild. He came here to teach Spanish.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

A Scotsman teaches because you know this. I served under a Scottish pastor at one point. Of course, I cannot imagine the sound, the sound with the Scottish accent, with the Spanish language. I wish there was a recording of that. Absolutely, because that's mind-blowing, but with with Christ, all things are possible.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:42

Things are possible, and so he pastored the church for 24 years. 24 years, uh, and then in those 25 years, they in 50 years, my friend, we've never owned a building, we've never invested in a building, and we have historically given uh anywhere between 40 and 60 percent of our uh offerings to missions. We we are a missions planting supporting church. Wow. In in our lack, because we are mostly immigrant-based.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:15

Um and now now I want to make sure there's clarity here. Because especially um here in Southern California, we hear Hispanic, we automatically think Mexican. We do now um there's no I understand because Mexico's an hour and a half away. I get that. Um, however, El Buen Pastor is made up of Mexican, made up of South American. I mean, yeah, we got you got a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

Yeah, that was the thing that I really I mean, people in general just endeared me, but when I saw what was happening already organically before I ever arrived, was what I was praying for. Is that there's that homogeneous principle in the church that everybody wants to birds of a feather flock together.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

If you look like me, I want to worship with you, I want to hang with you, I want to roll with you. When you look different, not saying that we can't overcome that, but we have to overcome that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:24

Wait, so so so for those listening, who you who what are the different uh nationalities that are represented there?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

Yeah, so at at when I first got there, you know, unfortunately, because of COVID and and and the situation of their their transition and stuff, they had that whittled down to about seven members when I took over. Really? Really, and seven. And out of those, and out of those seven, I could tell you that we had Mexican, Salvadoranian, which usually don't mix. No, we have an Argentinian, we had a Belize, Belizean, and we had a Colombian, and Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:13

Now, for those that are not familiar with the Hispanic world, South Americans don't play well with each other on a lot of times.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

We don't play nice with each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

Central Americans don't play well with South Americans, correct. And Mexicans don't play well with either.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

I don't think we play nice with anybody. We love everybody from a distance.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

And and I, you know, you're confirming this. My wife, who's Peruvian, has confirmed this. Um, I honestly think that man, if if South America and Central America could play well, they'd rule the world. Um but so the fact that all these different nationalities are in one church is a miracle in itself.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Definitely so. You know, one of the things that I've said a long time is that you know, we we hear a lot of conversations happening about you know, culture and assimilating and becoming something. And there are certain things that we should celebrate, the uniqueness in every culture, there's beauty to it, the tapestry, the fabric. However, once I become a Christian, the Christian culture usurps all other cultures. Now, I will always be a Marine. Right, I'm not an active Marine. Right, I don't wear the uniform every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

There's no such thing as an ex-marine.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

There's no ex-marine, no former Marine, none of that stuff, but I will always be associated. Yeah, I will always be affiliated. Yeah, just like I, you know, I was born to a Mexican mother. Yeah, I can't change that. I didn't choose that, it just is. But once the Lord reveals himself to me and I get an opportunity to uh to accept or reject, once you accept everything becomes part of who you were, right? Not who you are, right? Right. And you can take the good and carry it forward, but what most of us do is we carry the baggage of the bad with us. And then I don't like you because you're different than me.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

And you you have an accent, and there's just enough differences, right? Uh, and I love San Clemente because we really have what I found is four streams of people to serve. And I find so in San Clemente, you have the residents that are here. Yeah, they're already here. Yeah, the moment I showed up, there was already somebody say to greet me. Then you've got people that are relocating here. Yeah, right now you're relocating from somewhere in the United States to here or from somewhere out of the world to here. Yeah, the third stream is you've got tourists that will come here for a season and go home, wherever home is.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

And then the fourth stream is the military, yeah, down south with Camp Pendleton. Yeah, Camp Pendleton has 44,000 Marines, Marines that will rotate every three years. Think about that lost impact. If we taught if if they found a church anywhere in the world and they recognized them through the love that Jesus talked about, they would take that to their next duty station, and to the next duty station, and to the next duty station, until we all infected each other with love. Yeah, and that would be a beautiful thing. And that's what I found at at El Bempa store, is a rooted group of seasoned saints that love the Lord and thought uh that their best days were behind them.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

So you start serving there, just making them feel comfortable, you learning the culture, you stepping in as as um Pastor Mike was ill.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:31

Yeah, so Mike took over for Pastor Phil, and he and and he faithfully served the church for the next 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

Right. Um how then did it come to pass that you then became the pastor? How did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:48

Yeah, again, so God was working all things out for his purposes, and and as I went down to say hello and COVID started, and we didn't know what we didn't know. And are we gonna meet? Are we not gonna meet? What's going on? What's happening? Um, at that same time, Mike gets sick. And so he literally, his immune system was shot for the next 10 months.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:11

And so he comes and asks me if I will lovingly serve his church, his flock. And I said, I said, have you heard me speak Spanish? And he laughs and he says, You'll learn, you'll learn, you'll understand, you'll get it, you'll learn. And and Moses, you'll learn. You will learn. And so I took that and I just figured I've acted a fool for a huge portion of my life for me. Was I willing to look foolish or be the fool for Jesus? Because I was certainly not comfortable delivering a sermon in Spanish at all. And it took me twice, at least twice as long, because now I'm writing sermons full hand so that I can try completely translate it word for word, and then read it over and over and over and over to make sure that what I'm trying to say is what I'm saying. And this is before Chat GPT. Oh, yeah, this is way before I discovered any of those tools, and then just then I slowly discovered how to, you know, record a message and the computer will read to you. And so I now I get you know syntax and pronunciations and so on and so forth, and I'm reading, and I buy a dual language Bible so that I can read in Spanish. And if I don't understand what it's saying, I've got the English right next to it. Um, and just that, brother, like I tell you that that I thought that I was there to serve them, and I was, and I was loving it, but I was growing because I didn't gloss over sections of scripture that I already knew or memorized or thought I knew, because now I was reading it brand new in a different language and and trying to have it make sense in my mind. Um, and for the longest time, probably for the first three years, I still thought in English. And so now I've got the the problem of thinking in English, but having it attempting to have it come out of my mouth in Spanish. And it was very difficult. But what I said to everybody was the loving thing to do is if you hear me say it wrong, lovingly correct me.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:43

Which they Jack and I stopped by just what two weeks ago, and they continue to do that. And they continue to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:51

Because it's the loving thing to do. They know that let me say it incorrectly, say the wrong thing, and then go home and laugh at me in private. That's not loving, you know. So there's their interaction, and so my approach, my my preaching style has changed. It's more, it's a little bit of question and answer, a little bit of involvement because I want them to interact with the word. I want them to feast on what the Lord is providing daily. And, you know, I thought that that that would be overly taxing because I'm a bivocational pastor, but I've never felt the pressure of it. It fits. And so I don't I don't disagree that there's burnout, but when you're either not equally yoked or you're not in the right seat, you're you're building in vain. But when you're following the Lord's lead and not overrunning your coverage, there's grace. And it's sufficient for all things in all seasons. Uh, I try to get the sermon written, you know, early on so that I can be processing and again thinking through it, because again, it's a different language for me. Um, but now honestly, I can now I noticed that I can even write my sermon if I'm writing it in English, I'm still thinking about it in Spanish already. It's happening in my brain on its own. Or I can actually write stuff now completely in Spanish. I don't have to translate it anymore. Um, but there's so many good tools that I can still write my full sermon, put it into like ChatGPT, translates the whole thing for me. Um and I can use, you know, more uh Mexican Spanish versus Castilian uh in Spain. Uh I can use newer words that I some words I've never even heard of, but they're basic, but I've never heard of them before.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

And so that just that discovery process has been amazing. And then eventually, you know, Mike asked me if I was the next pastor, and I said, I don't know, bro. I said, I don't think I am. I said, but this is what I will tell you. I said, even even if I begin to discern this, we need to go and align ourselves to what I believe biblical leadership is.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

And so because he was not the founding pastor, he was the first steward. And just the way that I interpret scripture, the way that I understand scripture, the way that I wrestled with scripture is that when that pastor decides to retire, he hands the mantle back to the elders. And then the elders will go look for the next pastor. And I told them that we would go through that process if they expected me at all. Uh, because I wasn't applying, I wasn't looking, that's that was never an intent of mine at all. And so, but we established an eldership again, I would became an elder, uh, Mike stayed as an elder, we ministered together for a while, and Mike departed. I became the pastor, I accepted about a year and a half later, uh, officially.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:06

Was that we we find it within the church um transitions are not always easy? They're not. Um was this an easy transition? Was this smooth? Was this this great, you know, praying him out, praying you in? How is that process?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:34

Yeah, so uh most most unfortunately most churches don't transition well, yeah, historically. And so I really made a concerted effort, one, because I didn't necessarily aspire to be the pastor there. Uh, and then in reality, I didn't really aspire to be a pastor. I I was open to God's calling. Um, and I really wanted to walk out my faith. And so that happened with talking about developing the eldership again, transitioning it that way, working together. Uh, my my heart's desire was that he would go from being the you know uh father, disciplinary figure, sure, growing you as as the the lead shepherd and graduating into more of a doting grandfather.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:31

Now just you know, motivating, encouraging, you know, uh, we will fall, we will make mistakes. It's it's can you still walk together in those mistakes? The sin has been committed. Can we walk together? Can we be restored? We're called to that. And uh so it was working out well, but there was already some history within the church that I was unaware of that that was starting to create some strain. Um, and then at an eldership meeting, he just decided at one point to just step away. Uh he did. And uh I wasn't sure of what was happening. Um, but he and I dialogued afterwards because I wasn't sure whether he meant uh necessarily I'm stepping away today, like in today's meeting, or I'm stepping away totally. And so I needed clarity, and and that's again not my heart's desire. So we went and met with with a fellow brother that we could both just discuss our hearts openly without you know accusations or criticisms, or you know, and I you know doubled down on my commitment that that he was the the head steward until he chose otherwise, you know, and nobody was going to force him out uh in any which way. Um and when he was ready, again, to give it back to the elders, and the elders would decide. If that ended up being me, then praise God. If it didn't end up being me, praise God, you know, it was just open to it that way. And then once we got there, it really took about a year and a half that that we started to again, I was honoring the traditions, getting to know everybody, not creating my own mandate or plan or program. It was just uh getting to know each other. Um, I got really good advice early on that uh, you know, don't feel a certain kind of way, don't demand that people call you pastor, don't demand the authority, don't demand uh a certain privilege. Um, you know, and then you know Ron. We both served with Ron, that kind of ruins us, you know, for the world in that sense because he is uh one of the most unselfish men that we know in that way, and doesn't want the attention on himself and always putting us forward. Um, and so that I've really taken that to heart. And uh what what the congregation needed at that moment was just. A lot of love, you know, a lot of love, sympathy, um, empathy of, you know, where they have been, where they're going, what does this mean? Again, this is the third iteration of a pastor that they were going to get in their their long history. And so uh that was gonna cause change. Um, it was going to be a little bit different because, you know, again, you had Pastor Philip that was Scottish Englishman uh that knows Spanish, and then you had Mike, the second pastor that was an American married to um uh Hilda from El Salvador, um, so connected to the community, but now I'm the first Hispanic pastor of the Hispanic Church, and I didn't really understand the significance of that at the time, uh, but I do now, you know, and um I think that when we were talking about that homogeneous principle of people flocking together, um, because of my military background, I've never felt strange or out of place anywhere I've ever been.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:06

But I appreciate that. That when you walk into a building, most people, that's the first thing they notice is does anybody look like me? Do I stand out? Do I not? And there's a level of of or lack of comfort in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:19

Um have you since I mean this was a few years ago now, two or three years ago since the transition?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:30

Uh it's closer to four. Closer to four.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:33

Four.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:33

Yes, closer to four, like I said, it was a year and a half before I accepted officially the pastorate.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:38

So have you had much interaction with Mike since?

unknown 1:29:43

I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:44

I do. I reach out to him all the time. I pray for him, I reach out to him, tell him we're thinking about him, loving on him. Uh, you know, the church prays for him for our eldership, Cornerstone Eldership as our host church. Um, you know, there's there's many people that love and respect what Mike has done, how he stewarded the flock for for so many years faithfully.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:09

So now that you've been in this seat now for close to four years, um you know, there's uh been a lot of wants from the congregation. Um there's been a couple other transitions, you know. Now that um, you know, I know Cornerstone's going through uh building project stuff and refurbishments, and so now you're meeting in the afternoons versus how you were in the mornings. Um you know, uh something that you guys do that I absolutely love is and you've continued it, um is you always share a meal afterwards, which creates we all gotta eat, so let's just eat together. Let's all pitch in. Which I love that fellowship aspect. Um what what if what are things that you have now that you've been in this seat, what are things that you have learned? What have been the joys of ministry that you just you get out of bed and are excited about? And then what are the things that dang this is hard. This is hard. This is this is I I wish maybe somebody would have told me about this before.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:24

Well, the benefit that I have than than that than most do is you know, I'm at the back end of my life, back end of my career. I've had a career. Right. Um, I'm older than most people when they start the their pastorate career. Sure. Um, so I've got more life experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:44

Not necessarily pastoral experience, but just life experience. Yeah. I've led in many organizations. Um, I've been around the church long enough to see, you know, uh the things that that you know add energy and excitement to the work. And then I've seen things that deflate the flock, you know, and and so I've skirted those areas. Uh, but one of the most is is that I just don't take on programs. Um, what do you mean by that? I'm very disciplined because I've seen, I've witnessed that you know, somebody may have a very valid uh uh ministry opportunity or something that's being neglected, and they're they seem very passionate about it, and they express it, they articulate it, they they try to develop it, but then a lot of times because it gets hard because it's commitment. There's commitments involved, and they back out. And then who's left holding that program? The pastor. Um, I probably would be susceptible to that, but I'm also bivocational, so I've got to pretend no, and I have to be very judicious about what I say yes to. When when people bring things up to me and say, you know, what do you think about, then I turn it back and say, What do you think about it? Because if the if if if you notice it, whether it's the wall needs some spackle, like if you said, Can I go get some spackle? Why would I say no? Right? If there's a need within the community and it's valid and it could be articulated, why would I say no?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:26

You know, and so it's those things of being in community and we're gonna stick together, and uh hopefully better than family that that we're born into, we're choosing to stick together and grow together. And we're going to absorb each other's flaws either through grace, you know, that we've received uh from the Lord, or uh until they become aware that they've got this flaw within themselves that we've been hopefully trying to encourage and enable you to grow out of. You know, like I said, I used to be encouraged to yell at people as a young sergeant.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:07

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:08

That doesn't translate well into the church, does not, but it didn't also translate to what I wanted to produce in my vocation where I want to produce excellence in everything I do. And I noticed that if I yelled at you, I got immediate results, but only while I stood there.

unknown 1:34:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:31

As soon as I walked away to go handle something else, you went back to what you were doing or not doing. And so then that just told me that the only influence I have is me standing there. Well, that's not leadership. No, and so I had to figure out a I didn't have many tools in my tool belt at the time, but I knew I couldn't keep using that one that I had. And so I went back to the drawing board, figured it out, and then realized that that there are many leadership principles, many uh things that that that that you can uh encourage people with, motivate, and everybody's different. And we're one person like myself growing up, I was one that probably needed a good kick in the pants every now and then. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:20

Most most guys do.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:21

Most guys do. But some don't. Yeah, some don't, some really but some really don't, and then some would be crushed under the pressure.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:31

And we're not here to crush people. No, we're here to to to raise them up. If they need a hand, help them up. If they if they're falling, stand them up, you know, get them back on the road, uh, or get them on the road. And and so I stopped yelling and figured other things out. What motivates you? How can I get the best out of you? Because if you perform, then we perform.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:54

If I elevate your productivity, your standards, your your your version of excellence, then all of ours rise. That's what I've loved about the church. You talked about the meals, you know. We instituted that because, again, being bi vocational, I don't have the luxury of excess time, not that any other pastor does. But I needed to focus on getting to know my flock and letting them get to know me. And then what has happened through that meal is we get to know each other beyond the surface level, and that's where really community comes in, and we can just stand in what we say all the time is stand in the gap for my brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:38

Well, what does that mean? Well, if you're down today, that doesn't mean you're not a believer. That means you're just down today. And the spirit tells us that the word in my brother is stronger in him than it is in me right now. You know, and that's that proverbs, iron sharpening iron, is that that reality may not be true tomorrow. Tomorrow I'm the one that may be down. I'm the one that's hurting, and you're there to lift me up now. And we're doing that for each other because the things that may tempt me, although they're not unique to me, that might not be something that you struggle with.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:10

And then what you struggle with may not be something I struggle with. And then we can gird each other up, we can cover each other's sicks, and that's what being in community is all about. And that's what happens at the meal. I mean, I see it, it's called the agape meal. You see it in Acts, uh, in the book of Acts, that they broke bread, literally. It wasn't just the Lord's Suppers, they were breaking bread while that was happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:32

Because this is unfortunately in westernized, as time has gone on, we've made church just a programmatic, come for a couple hours at most, on a Sunday or maybe a Wednesday night or something, instead of no, no, no, no, no, no. This is this isn't just one more thing in the schedule. This is this is our life. This is a lifestyle. This is what we do, this is what we're about. Uh, we bring our kids into this. We bring this is this is simply who we are, and food. There's two universal languages in the world math and food. Right? We all have to eat.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:18

We might as well and there's a level of intimacy in sharing food.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:24

When you invite somebody to the same table, the the guard is down, and we're all enjoying. And when we've just heard the word of God, we even see this. I I I see you know, you you read about how Jesus fed the five thousand, which really was probably more fifteen because of women and children, but he fed them spiritually and then physically.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:57

Because we need both. We need both, and he usually started with the physical first, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:02

Exactly, because that that it's an immediate gratification for us to listen. We if our tummy is rumbling and all that, it's hard for us to pay attention. But also, there's traditions like our good friend Aaron, uh, Southern Baptist Church, that's what they would do. They would have Sunday school, then they would have worship service, and then they would always eat. Because there's a need for study, worship, and eating. Correct. And I love that you guys, I don't know of another church that does that regularly in our area. I don't, I don't, maybe that's just me, but I love that you guys have continued this because that was there prior to you, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:43

Uh, they would do it periodically, but to do it every Sunday that was introduced through me. Again, it was just a season, it was it was an intent on my part just to get introduced myself to the flock.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:56

The flock to introduce themselves to me. We get a visitor. Again, if you're having and again, I'm not against coffee and donuts after service, sure, but you're not going to get any depth of conversation or relationship with somebody over a coffee and a donut after versus an hour. Correct. Yeah. And so we got to know each other at that route, and I know what they need. I know what they're looking for. And, you know, the reality is that we've got to be true to ourselves and say, you know, we aren't the answer for everybody. We can't do everything. We're part of the body, we're not the full body. Um, and so there's been times that I've met with people that that, you know, again, when I started, we had seven people. Out of those seven people, we probably don't have a robust youth group, a you robust family ministry, right? And so if the immediate need that they had was more of a familial situation, then I really am limited on what I can support you with. And so I'm because we have a network of people and network of pastors that we love and trust and and and can cooperate, then I have no issue with saying, Morgan, love you, you can stay, right? We'll minister together. I said, but I've got my buddy, you know, Aaron down the street that has exactly and is focused on exactly what you need right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:29

You know, and if we're and if we're doing kingdom business, I'm not looking to grow my church. I'm looking to grow his church.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:38

It's his bride, not mine. I'm I'm the steward.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:43

You know, the things that have been challenging for me uh has to do with, you know, just that eldership, uh uh, eldership rule, eldership uh um led congregations, because that's even though I'm a very independent worker, I never saw myself as being the senior pastor, the lead pastor, the only pastor. Um, I wanted to be a pastor amongst elders that I'm equal to. I'm not the last authority. I'm not, it doesn't have to go my way or the highway. I want to discern with people because I have a high degree of respect for the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, that he's active. And uh, you know, I had to decide that I'm going to trust the Holy Spirit to do his job and I'm going to do mine. And so, you know, I don't very rarely do I say what songs to what song set is going to be for the worship set. Because I've got a worship leader for that.

unknown 1:42:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:54

And we pray together. And because I'm uh I preach uh uh systematically uh exegesis, they know what the next sermon's gonna be about.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:06

So she can read through and she knows.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:10

Yeah, it's probably three more verses from last week's, right? And then the week after that's probably three more verses, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:17

Probably you'll get to four verses.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:19

Maybe maybe we'll climb as many as five and as low as one, you know, because there's a lot of meat there, and and we just have to uh uh work the soil, right? We got to turn the soil so that these people can grow. I don't cause the growth, I don't cause salvation, I play a very small role, but the congregation plays a bigger role, and certainly the Holy Spirit plays the ultimate role.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:46

So we're uh we're getting towards the end here for those that are being called as you said. If if you're called, it's hard to run away from it. If young Ernie was here, um what would you tell him? What would you tell these aspiring pastors? What advice would you give them on what to focus on, what not to focus on, um that next generation of aspiring pastors?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:31

Pray. Pray, pray. Um I think that a lot of times we fall under the fallacy that because we're doing the Lord's work, we're communicating with God. Um I really love the Exodus story uh because they had a a pillar by night and a cloud by day to follow, you know, and pretty hard to around your coverage there.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:02

Because you knew when you gotta pack your stuff up and go, and you knew when you were supposed to stop and set up camp. And sometimes today, because we are all gifted uniquely, we rely on our gifting more than we rely on the Holy Spirit and think we can compensate for where we lack. Um, and we get so busy about the Father's work that sometimes we forget about the Father. And all he really ever cares about is relationship with us individually, then corporately. He reveals and calls us individually.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:41

And so we, the more time that I spend with Jesus and get to know him in his ways, then I'm learning and I'm being edified, I'm being equipped with the tools on how to handle that next issue or that next situation. Um, you know, our congregation um just happens to be more migrant, Spanish speaking, uh, lower level of education. Um, so I'm really simplifying things, but we have a prayer that we pray before every sermon, that it's ingrained with scripture and my overarching philosophy, and then we have a definition of love.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:30

And it's not self-focused, it's others focused. And we repeat it periodically, you know, at least once a month together, that this is who we are.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:41

Because we got to be rooted in who we are. Because if you don't, then you're just going to pick each other apart. Because I'm sorry, you are different than me until you're not.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:52

You know, and we're not going to be different until the Lord returns. We'll all be perfected then. Um, and that's just really been the joys. You know, I really haven't seen many disappointments. You know, one of the biggest uh arguments, if you will, within the church that we've had is do we continue the meal or don't we? You know what I mean? And it's like when if we're at that level and that's the level of tension, you know what I mean? Uh then we're doing something right.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:20

You know, and and like I said, I don't focus on numbers of people that are coming. I look at depth of roots. Yeah. And because the numbers, the the community itself, just numerically large, can protect you from an invading force, if you will, but it will not necessarily protect you from an internal conflict that you have. That only happens through relationship. And I have to be able to trust you one to tell you what I'm struggling with.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:52

And then trust you enough that you're going to give me a prescription, right? And then I have to be diligent to take it. You know, I've seen many a times that that we will counsel people and we'll tell them, read through this, review that, visit with so-and-so, and they'll come back because the problems have gotten worse. And you ask, Did you do what I asked you to do? And the answer is no. And like, what's happening? You know, like, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:25

You know, I want to help you. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:28

I want it too.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:29

Yeah. And one of the one of the phrases is like, I can't want it more than you do. Exactly. I just can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:35

What I've heard from you, I think the most out of all this, this whole discussion. Um the key things is two things. One is the ministry of presence is undervalued, uh, is probably more important than we know. That's been huge in your life between your adopted grandfather and Ron Elders, and then you now spiritually mature, doing that for others now. And then, as you said, the one thing that you would advise is prayer. And it that comes down to the vertical relationship we have with God, and then the horizontal relationship we have with each other, is is those are the most important things that we have because everything else is out of our control. But can we control how our uh how much time we spend with the Lord? Yes, we do. We do, we can control that to an extent. Yes, we can. We're all busy, but you can take 10 minutes out of your day and spend time with God, do business with God, have intimacy with God through prayer, and then um you can be present. In somebody's life. One, two, three, does not matter. All it needs to be is one person. One person, and you have no idea what that's gonna do for that person. No clue. We've seen that in your life, we've seen that in our friend Darren's life with his mom, constant praying, and she never got to see, but look at him now the ministry of presence and prayer. And so and I think that's a huge thing because us as pastors can get so worked up over the smallest things and getting busy and doing this, this, and this. And it's like, guys, simply being present with your flock and making sure you have intimacy with God because it's going to flow that intimacy with God is going to flow right into your care with the flock, and it's just this amazing, beautiful thing that we see in the scriptures. And so I think that is amazing, and I I know that is well-lived advice. Um, and I think those that if you're in college and you're studying, that's an amazing thing, but do not neglect these things. Your studies are good, but it'll come out as authentic. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:20

When you're spending the time with the Lord, it'll come out as authentic.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:24

And not contrived.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:25

And if you're not doing business with the Lord, it's hard to really give decent advice because is it your advice or is it his advice? That's it. And he knows them, you don't.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:35

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:36

Um, you know, it's it's an old adage that says if you knew their story, their life would make sense to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:43

But we don't know their story, so we fall back on the very human element of judging.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:49

And it's hard to love somebody when you're judging them, right? And so it's being authentic, spending time with the Lord, praying, making sure that you're doing business with him and you're his child first. And we don't have to have all the answers. That's the other side of it that a lot of young pastors I see feel like they have to have all the answers because they got to show themselves approved. If you're if you're standing in that wake, you're already approved because somebody approved you. You you don't, I hope you don't ordain yourself. You know what I mean? It's a group of men that have said you're qualified uh in some way, shape, or form, and you don't have to have all the answers.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:29

You you're not equipped for all ministries, you know, uh, and don't try to be the smartest guy in the every room.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:37

That's I think we may have to have you back to discuss to discuss that topic because I think that's that's a that's a fool's errand. Um but we're running out of time here. We've gone oh we've gone quite a while. Um Ernie, thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing. Um I love the journey that the Lord has taken you on because it is unique to yourself. And I think these those that are listening need to hear how the Lord brings about his his ministers because it's different every single time uh how they are brought into the ministry of the gospel. Um and so if you're listening, understand that there is not one way, there is one way to salvation, but there's uh many ways that God has called you into himself, and I hope you've heard that through all of these guests uh that have come on here, that there are many ways that God has called you out and to himself and into his body and into pastoral leadership. Um, but the overarching theme here is remain intimate with the Lord and know and love your sheep. And so, uh, Ernie, again, thank you for being here. Uh, for those listening, thank you for tuning in for another episode, and we will catch you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:01

Thanks for having me. Goodbye.