Aspire Ministries Podcast

Tim Thetford “The Chemistry of Ministry”

• Morgan Meader • Episode 16

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In this episode I sit down with Tim Thetford. 

Born and raised in Southern California, Tim has been serving in Orange County churches for over 25 years. Studying science and music, Tim earned his Bachelors of Science in Biochemistry from Chapman University in 1997. As a worship and ministry leader for youth and adults, he developed a passion for God’s word, theology, apologetics and evangelism, especially sharing the gospel with Mormons and defending the unborn. He began teaching and ministering in 2007, and was called to serve at CCC in 2012. Tim desires that the body of believers at Christ Community Church would continue to grow in Christ-likeness, loving and serving each other and the surrounding community for God’s glory. He enjoys comic books, surfing, and playing soccer. Tim and his wife Michelle live in Laguna Hills and have three grown children.

SPEAKER_03

All right. Well, thank you for coming back to Aspire Ministries Podcast. Today I have one of our pastors at Christ Community, uh, Tim Thetford. Uh, Tim, thank you for coming. Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for having me. So, um, what is your role at Christ Community and how long have you been serving there in a full-time capacity?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I'm I've been full-time for three years. I was bivocational part-time for 15 years, I think I've been there. Wow. Um, but my official role is uh associate pastor of counseling. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. We're gonna dive into that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So, Tim, uh family life. How did you grow up? Was faith a big part of the household of the Thetford household, or were you kind of the pioneer of faith out of the family? How did that work within the Thetford household?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, uh, grew up Catholic and pretty consistent. Most Sundays we'd go to Mass. Wasn't just like Easter and Christmas.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

My mom was Irish Catholic, my dad was atheist agnostic, um, but committed to um coming to church with my mom. So you saw the value, like the values there? Yeah. Was that it? I mean, I grew up, I grew up, I I would say I grew up no no knowing that there was a God, knowing that he was real, that he cared for me, um, but was always concerned with my salvation, losing my salvation, or or not losing my salvation, but just overwhelmed with kind of sin and a big part of like the younger, my younger life was like, God forgive me for everything that I've ever done, and then feeling clean for like five minutes and then repeat, rinse and repeat kind of thing. So um, yeah, I didn't go to Catholic school per se, but I did go to um the classes for my first communion and confirmation, and so I did that all the way through high school. What is the is the Catholic church? Where did you grow up? Yeah, I grew up in Walnut, California. Okay, which um yeah, was uh pretty rural, pretty rural. Um built up suburbs, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely built up now. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we went to Cal the Catholic church we went to is probably like 20, 25 minutes away. There wasn't a lot of stuff around there. Um yeah, had this interesting experience where when I was about 12, 13, my dad um became interested in in his faith. And so actually got um, yeah, I saw my dad get baptized into and go through confirmation and communion and and become a Catholic. Um Wow, that's pretty extreme.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

What what do you think? Do you think it was just him going and listening consistently? Like you talked about how he would go to church and eventually the word right? We the word does not return void.

SPEAKER_00

So I'll I'll jump ahead a little bit. Like my dad, when he before he passed, he was he was an incredibly strong believer, and he was uh and so so I've got to see my dad's faith journey um from pretty much agnostic to to being um yeah, uh a Christian who's was you know always in Bible study, always yeah, I see I've got to see him change a lot. Um but growing up, Catholicism was very uh sterile, dark. Um, you know, I remember Jesus hanging on the cross and the smells of incense and a lot of up-down, the religiosity of it. Through through through that, there was God's grace, and that that I was I definitely believed in God. I I think I knew um that God was real, um, but but had no understanding of grace, had no understanding of um a relationship with Jesus or the Trinity or anything, even within the Catholic Church. It was very, very shallow kind of understanding of God. And and there was a lot of, like I said, a lot of fear of um I definitely knew I was a sinner, uh, but but just only understood like the wrath or the judgment of God, I would say.

SPEAKER_03

I feel that's pretty common with within Catholicism. Other friends that I know have said the same thing that are no longer practicing Catholics, and that is one of the reasons is that there's constant fear, wrath, judgment, all that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_00

So so our household, you asked, it wasn't it was pretty disconnected. It was, you know, we went to mass on Sundays. Um occasionally the the father, the priest would come over for for dinner. Um, but other than that, there was no Bible study, there was no um, you know, kind of discipline that included like examining my heart or or kind of pointing me to truths of scripture or contemplation of what it meant to be a Christian. Nothing like that. It was it was completely devoid of that. That being said, I I mean I had a pretty good uh home. Um, you know, but but it but it would there not nothing was integrated, so to speak. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And so um were you strong in your Catholic walk through high school, through junior high, that type of stuff? Or was it again more just like, okay, this is what the family does on Sundays, and then I go through the motions of the confirmation and communion and that type of thing. Was it kind of like that? Or um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So when I went through my I think it was confirmation, um, we had to recite, um we had to recite, I think it was uh the Nicene Creed, but but in it it talks about there's like one true church. They they they tweak it a little bit. So there's one true Catholic, you know, we would say Catholic with a lower C. They would say the Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, right? Right. And I remember at that time having a discussion with my mom um saying, I I don't believe the Catholic Church is the only true church. I don't know where that came from. Yeah, and surprisingly, my mom said, Okay, well, then don't don't say that part or whatever. And so yeah, yeah. So um it was also super weird too, because you go through uh for those who've gone through maybe like a confirmation class, I mean, you know, you're going through with a bunch of high schoolers that are just carnal and you know, they're yeah, the the the conversations outside the classroom were not great. So I and and again, I I I wanted to be a moral kid. I I wanted to be good, I wanted to be again, I was fearful of my uh of going to hell uh based on my sins. So so the change happened, or or maybe the contemplation of the start of my journey was um in high school, my freshman year, I had hanging out with not great guys. I was skate, surf punk kid, and um the guys that kind of I I gravitated towards were parties, we're doing drugs, we're um sleeping with girls. And there was a couple of guys, there were three guys that were on my swim and water polo team. So I I uh I swam as a kid and came in and wanted to do that right away, and they were Christians. And so they they kind of took me under their wing, um, pulled me away from from that that group that was not heading in a good direction, and started inviting me to church and to Bible studies. And you know, we're we're talking, we're event evangelistic in the sense they were they're talking about God and you know, they're they were you know, we were all silly at that age, but but they they integrate their faith was integrated. They were they were Christians and and it it it showed and it came out in their in their talk and that kind of stuff. So um got invited to a Bible study and really liked it, and so came home and had a a conversation with my parents, especially my mom, who grew up believing, you know, so that conversation that we had where she said, just don't say that. She she grew up definitely being taught or believing or holding to that the Catholic Church was the only true church, and so now her son, which was, you know, most parents would would think this is a good thing, but it was it was disturbing for my mom. Like, hey, I want to go to a Christian church that's not the Catholic Church. Yeah, and so we struck a deal, and the deal was that I could go to Bible study midweek if I went to Mass on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And so I I said that's great. And so I got to go to Bible study and would go faithfully at my little Catholic uh King James Bible, which I realized, yeah, but I realized real quick, okay, nobody else is reading the these and thou's and all this. Everybody else had like an NIV. Um, but but I would do that. I would go to um Bible study midweek and I would go to Mass on Sunday, and and then if my parents slept in, which happens, you know, I would sneak off and go to go to church with my buddies uh on Sunday morning. And so eventually it just became um, you know, I was trying to honor my parents, um, but eventually, you know, I I graduated high school and I just started going to a Christian church. Okay. Well, I mean, well, okay, let me back up a little bit. So I did I did also go to summer camp. So so they invited me to summer camp and I heard the gospel. Where do you know which camp? Yeah, it was Angel's Crest Christian camp. Still there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I actually know somebody that works there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. We were we were real close you know back in the day with with a lot of people that worked there. Okay. And that was yeah, that was kind of like a bunch of my buddies went and worked there and stuff too. So very cool. So I got baptized in the pool, in the swimming pool there. Wow. And so that was an interesting conversation coming home and telling my Catholic parents that I got baptized at Christian camp. And um, you know, to their credit, you know, they said, well, that doesn't make sense. You've already been baptized as a baby. You were baptized as a baby. So yeah, so I got to explain to my parents a lot, uh, you know, the gospel and different principles of believers' baptism and and those kind of things. And to their credit, uh, they they they they were suspicious, they were, you know, they had kind of grown up like, I don't get this, I don't necessarily like this, but but to their credit, um, they're very gracious and and and they were seeing a change in me. And so that was good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah. So my brother started coming uh with me. I ended up meeting uh a beautiful young lady there that is now my wife of almost 33 years, and so um, yeah. So so so then after high school, not under my parents' roof. So I just I started going to Christian churches and and we married, uh, went to college up in Santa Barbara, um, went to some churches up there. Which where did you go to college? Uh UCSB, Santa Barbara. Okay, yeah, and wasn't the greatest at kind of um being you know faithfully in in in church on Sunday mornings for sure. Um, but a lot of times I was driving back down to Orange County and stuff too to to visit my girlfriend, which became my fiance and my wife. And so um yeah, it wasn't yeah, I I wouldn't say I lost my way in college, but I definitely wasn't didn't see the priority of of meeting on Sundays and being involved in a church and connected and all that kind of stuff. So I would say that the the church that I got saved into was was a great church, um, incredibly loving, but not but had no real ecclesiology, no real um yeah, it was lacking in a lot of ways. Sure. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Um now when you went to college, I mean you were going from where you are right now, you're going a completely different route. What was your major in college?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, my major was bio. Yeah, yeah, it was marine bio, then bio, then pre-med, then bio, then yeah. Pre-med? Yeah. Were you gonna be Dr. Thetford? Uh yeah, I think for for maybe like a month or something, and I realized, man, these people are really smart. Like I cannot compete with this. So wow. But yeah, I didn't have my degree, got married, long story short, got my degree uh from Chapman University in biochemistry.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Where maybe I'm confused. Where is Walnut? So Walnut's about 45 minutes north of Orange County. It's by Diamond Bar, West Covino. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. Um But but when you live in Orange County, you don't know anything past the five. So that's very true.

SPEAKER_03

That's why I'm like, wait a minute. Yeah, I mean, here in St. Clemen, when I probably pass Crown Valley, I start to sweat. Like I'm I'm leaving the promised land here. Yeah. Um, okay. So that that gives me now was Michelle uh from Walnut as well? Where's where was she? Okay, she was.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, she has her own unique testimony. Uh the Calvary Chapel Chapel bus used to come by in her neighborhood, and she would just get on the bus at like seven years old by herself. No way. Yeah. So she got saved at an early age, and her her family was uh a little wild. Uh I mean I've heard some stories. Yeah. Yeah. So so yeah, when I met her, uh, she was faithfully going to this church and was a believer. She was she was a lot more uh mature spiritually than I was. I was this Catholic kid that just was happy to be there. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Yeah. So college, bio, it right after graduation, you guys get married, or while you're still in college?

SPEAKER_00

Uh she graduated. Um, I still I I took time off after we got married and worked, and I had the nine-year college program.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, there we go.

SPEAKER_00

And that was not a PhD program, that was just my bachelor's. So yeah. But you got it done. Yeah. Yeah. But I would say maybe the first um, or maybe, maybe, maybe going to Bible study with my buddies and getting baptized. Maybe that was the first kind of like um twist in the road. Sure. I would say another major one was when I was going to Chapman. Sure. Um, had to take a world religions class and had a professor that was part of um, I can't remember the name of it now. It's the Jesus. Uh it was it was a bunch of atheists and agnostics who took the Bible and voted on which parts of the Bible that they thought were um true or not true. Oh, anyways, really antagonistic to Christianity. And I tried to go toe-to-toe with him in my college class and just got obliterated and really, really shook my faith. Um, so I would say Was that your first introduction to apologetics? Well, the first introduction to my lack of having experience in apologetics for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Years later when I was exposed to apologetics, it was like it was like cool water in a parched desert that had been for for for a few years of maybe five years since that class, still going to church, still, you know, starting to have kids and and doing that kind of stuff. Um, but feeling like, man, I j I'm just like kind of white knuckling it. I'm just kind of holding on uh you know by faith and not really having any evidence or any kind of, you know, it was it was like blind, it was blind faith, and it was it was not comfortable at all. Right. And that started in that class, I would say.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And you so you're having kids, you're in this class, you get demolished. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so the worst part was there was a debate, and there were Christians that came to the debate and were just like, you know, just yelling things, like, like, you know, what not the example of um maturity nor um you know, experience like, yeah, just kind of like hurling insults at this guy, basically not having any depth or you know, not not not rational, reasonable responses either. And I'm like, yeah. So I'm like, oh, the Calvary's here, and then I was like, oh, this is not good either. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I mean yeah. It our our faith, are there moments in time when we are supposed to just um go because Jesus said 100%, however, just as the scriptures say, have an answer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And but I might yeah. But it but it was just seeing the evidence in scripture, right? Starting to get into apologetics, starting to um trust scripture that way, and look at you know, um you know, reliability of scripture, and that was huge for me.

SPEAKER_03

So where did you start? I mean, you had the class, but then from there, where did you start?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So we were going to a s uh a small uh church in a box, um, you know, set it up every weekend. It was a it was a daughter church of another major church, and uh it was great. There was great people there. Um is it still there? No. Okay. Um, but uh the pastor was was a youth pastor that the that Michelle and I, when we were first married, before we had kids and stuff, we we were volunteering with him, and then he uh was commissioned out to start a church, and so we start going to this church, and we get involved with the high school ministry there, and um Jay Jay Warner Wallace is the oh yeah, is the high school pastor there. No way. So he um yeah, so I I I go in as a leader and he's teaching apologetics, and I'm just like just soaking it up.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, he's giving me books to read, and I'm just yeah, just diving into books and um and then starting to teach Bible study and and really actually studying the Bible for the first time after being, you know, a Christian for umpteen years, right? So those things together I finally had the um the evidence or the the the assurance or the you know and I think it was a combination, and you know, it's not all apologetics. Um a lot, I think a lot of it was actually just just studying God's word and and having a confidence in in God's word. But for sure, um trusting the reliability of scripture, trusting um that what we what was written down is is what we still have today, what was written down was was you know was what was actually happening, those those kind of things was was huge for me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And I mean I mean, what a guy to l directly learn from.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I mean, he speaks internationally.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I mean, that's that's a pretty cool teacher to have at your disposal like that to start off with.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it wasn't just uh head knowledge, it wasn't just apologetics. I mean, he was a guy that was encouraging me to to teach Bible studies and to I mean, he's the first guy that told me, Hey, I think you have a shepherd's heart, and you know, have you ever thought about you know, m ministering and and moving in this direction? And and it was not even on my radar.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think you're speaking about something that because you talk about how you The heart, right? The heart to seek, and even that passage we're referring to in First Peter chapter three, it talks about the heart's position before you go and you know have an answer. You know, you saw from that class what not to do, yeah. You know, but having conversations about the reliability of scripture, um, any type of apologetic uh subject is your heart in the right place. Is it to dominate the conversation? Is it to be right, or is it to not just speak truth but show truth and love?

SPEAKER_00

Right? Yeah, yeah, I would say as well, um you know, he was powerful in my sanctification in that. Um yeah, I was I was angry, I was a jerk to my wife a lot. Um, and then I'd show up and you know, out of duty, um expect uh to teach a Bible study. And he'd say, Go home, you knucklehead. Go, go, go reconcile with your wife. And I'm like, but I've studied and I'm I'm ready and there's people here. And yeah, he'd say, No, you're an idiot. That's good, you're an idiot. Get out of here, go, go fix your marriage, right? Go fix, go, go apologize to your wife. And I needed to hear that. I needed that, um, maybe more than anything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, I mean, he he's been, yeah, and and there have been other godly men that have come around me and admonished me and encouraged me. And yeah, I'm so grateful for it that they were brave enough to to speak hard things to me that I needed to hear. And praise God that that uh by his grace I was I was willing to hear those things and and willing to to start to make some changes.

SPEAKER_03

Man, I mean I mean that just opens up a whole other line of topic of discipleship.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, of of making sure I I I didn't really have that when we first got married, having someone like that. I didn't have a pastor or an elder really that um did that for me. It was really kind of piece it together. And um at that point, when Allie and I got married, I was 27. And so um I kind of was in a lot of ways set in my ways and I had my habits and it wasn't good. I I kind of thought when we got married, oh, she's just gonna come into my routine and quickly learn that that was not gonna happen. And you know Allie very well that she um she uh will make sure she her um opinion is known. Yeah, yeah. So um she's spicy, right? She yes, that is an yes, she very much is. Um she likes to say that we have our spicy talks. Um and when we first married, uh, we had a lot of them, and it was a lot of it was there was one couple that that helped that was a little off a little ahead of us, but um yeah, I mean, and I think our church does such a good job of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um having men our I love our men's breakfast and whatnot, and just constantly I think at every single men's event it is said from the stage or wherever we're at, if you're looking for a man to disciple you, if you're looking for this, yeah, because it's so needed, because um more knuckleheads.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because guys yeah, because guys are ha dubbing happy, you know, being by themselves, yeah, you know, in their cave, right?

SPEAKER_03

My my good buddy gave me a book um years ago, and it's called If Only He Knew. And I'm like, and it's a small book, and it's a great marriage book. And I mean, I'm like, why what is this? And he said, Because you don't know. Yeah. Um so so this is kind of the beginning of of a passion that you're continuing even to this day. Yeah. Um, shepherding people, apologics, and you're doing this alongside being married, having kids, but also um at this point, I mean you're diving into biochem or what what field are you in?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so yeah, I started working in biochemistry, worked in pharmaceuticals for years, did RT, did um, yeah, did a lot of things. Um which there are lab experiments, and a lot of those lab experiments you can't rush, right? There's there are there are liquids that are dripping and you know, um yeah. They're they're yeah. So so anyways, there's downtime. And so in my downtime, yeah, I'm reading apologetics, I'm reading theology, I'm systematics, I'm reading, yeah, um, the Bible, I'm studying, I'm preparing, I'm doing all those kind of things. So the church that we were at, they were part of the high school group, eventually, um the the church was going to combine with another church, and it did, um, but but a lot of the high schoolers that we had there were not necessarily connected to their parents, and so they weren't they weren't going to join this new church, um, you know, because there wasn't really any connection there. And so we started a house church in in the garage, and it started with high schoolers, and over the years it grew in college students and people got married, and then families, you know, c kind of came in and it morphed. And so we did that for about seven years. And so that was the time for me to grow in ministry. So were you like the lead pastor of that? Or what no? Jim Jim was definitely the lead, but but he was pushing me to to preach and to teach and to uh do Bible studies, and yeah, that's where where I you know cut my teeth, so to speak. Uh it was a little different in that oftentimes I had I had a baby on my hip as I was doing it, and you know, there was question and answer as as we were going through it, so a little bit different, but yeah, that was that was the the time when I when I was starting to say, huh, maybe, maybe, maybe he's right. Maybe there is something to this ministry thing. Um and during that time as well, uh, I was going out to Utah, and so that was another, I would say, uh impactful uh event in my in my Christian life, in that uh we went out to Utah to evangelize to Mormons. And so I'm a high school leader, still pretty incredibly shy. Um I I love people, but but yeah, I just just just shy overall and and had never shared my shared my faith, you know. And so we go out and I'm the leader, I'm supposed to know what I'm doing, right?

SPEAKER_03

Um how'd you get connected to the ministry on Utah?

SPEAKER_00

Uh through uh through Brett Kunkel. Okay. Yeah, he had done it. Uh we have a friend out there, uh Rob Savolka, who had done it, who trained him. Um, but you know, like like all this, I started like uh I was I was the guy with the guitar that sang songs, yeah. I was the worship guy. I had no intention of yeah, yeah, it had no intention of pastoral ministry, anything. Evangelism, are you kidding me? No way, like that was the most terrifying thing in the world. So we go out there and yeah, I'm supposed to be a leader. I'm supposed to be showing these kids how to do this. And I was just terrified. I was just scared out of my mind. Um, but as I trusted God and I opened my mouth and I put myself in positions where there were opportunities to do it, I was like, wow, this is amazing. Not only am I seeing God work in the lives of the people I'm talking to, but God is radically changing me through this.

SPEAKER_03

So let's I I want to dive, I want to ask about this. So uh when was your first what year was your first time going to Utah to speak to Mormons out there? And where were you going to Salt Lake? Where were you going?

SPEAKER_00

We had no idea what we were doing. I mean, I've been doing it for 20 years, and so it was approximately 20 years ago, maybe a little bit longer, that we did our first trip, and we had no idea what to what we were doing. So we just go out there and we go to uh the Salt Lake City Temple. Okay, and so we're trying to talk to people on the temple, and we're getting kicked off the temple, and and so we're standing outside, you know, with signs and people are like cursing at us and throwing stuff like we had no idea what we were doing, and we had to look learn really quick like what not to do, right?

SPEAKER_03

So talk what what what is the dynamic there at the temple? What you know, what because I've never I a good portion of my family is Mormon. Yeah, and I I've studied Mormonism, but I've never done one of those trips. I've never been to the temple there. I've been to Salt Lake, but I've never been to the temple. So what what is there? What are the rules?

SPEAKER_00

What well they're really smart. I mean, you know, so so they take these touristy things or these these interesting things, right? So you've got this temple in the middle of a city, right? And they build it out and they build a visitor center, and you know, it's beautiful, it's well maintained, it's all these things, you know, these statues and you know, art and all this stuff. Um, but it's all evangelistic. And so it's opportunities to say, hey, this is what we believe, and and and they can craft that however they want it. And and over the twelve last 20 years, I've seen it change and change and change and change again. What have been the biggest changes in their messaging? Well, I would say most recently is that we are Christians, right? They would say we're non-credal Christians. Okay. Um, where Joseph Smith would be rolling over in his grave, I think. I, you know, the Joseph Smith was not um not John Smith, Joseph Smith. They don't like that. No, Joseph Smith, uh, yeah, did not want to be associated with Christianity. That that that he that Christianity had had screwed up, right?

SPEAKER_03

Wasn't it the angel Moroni said they're all apostate, they've all left the true faith.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so so yeah, according to Mormonism, Jesus comes and says, Don't don't go to any church, they're all screwed up. And and you, Joseph, need to fix it. And and so, so Mormons for for forever have have been, you know, no, we have the truth, we have the restored gospel, we have, you know, and and we're not gonna water it down with evangelical Christianity. Right. Well, that's that's changed. They absolutely are told that they are Christians, um, and that um, you know, and and and it's you know, they've got they they're trying to hide the the weirder stuff, the the more, you know, um it's it's it's still there. Sure, you can't undo it, but but they're not highlighting those things. And so it's what's the weird the what's the weird stuff? Oh, that God was once a man and that we can become gods, right? That that was that was you know uh Mormonism 101. Yeah. And now you talk to young Mormons, they've never heard that. Really? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So so those the the ones on their mission that come knocking on my door, if I bring that up, they won't know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00

It depends. It depends. If they've grown up with parents that are, you know, grandparents parents or grandparents who are honest, then then they've heard it.

SPEAKER_03

But don't they school like training preforce?

SPEAKER_00

It's less and less, it's less and less. It's you know, when I when I started doing this 15, 20 years ago, they were so knowledgeable and so studied and so and now you can go on your mission and know very little. How is that possible? Because they have a script and they just stick to the script. And it's and it's not about, you know, they'll say, they'll say it's not about, you know, persuading people because because they believe that there's gonna be a second chance. There's no urgency, right? So if um you know, according to Mormonism, if we all die, we're gonna we're gonna get a second chance. We're gonna we're gonna wake up to Mormon missionaries, and and then and then we'll have that chance to to decide then, and hopefully people will do the the um sacraments and stuff, the the the ordinances that need to be done so that so that we can continue on. But basically there's that they believe that they're super Christians. So they've got you know it's it's just Gnosticism, yeah, right, secret knowledge, yeah, right. But but they're hiding the secret knowledge now. They're not they're not promoting the secret knowledge because they're taking a tactic that we're just like you.

SPEAKER_03

So I guess uh it's so weird because wasn't at one time Mormonism was one of the fastest growing religions, right? During that time?

SPEAKER_00

That's what they say, yeah. It's definitely not it's definitely not now. So why if if it's if that's what killed it? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh okay, the exposure of the weird stuff. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh so so if you're a Mormon, right, you're not gonna you're not gonna visibly go talk to you're not gonna ask questions and visibly go talk to people who who you know are are gonna be critical to the Mormon faith or or or be honest about their Mormon faith. But as soon as the internet happened, you you can go on your computer in you know, in your home and under anonymity research anything you want.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, interesting. So right, so I mean, obviously you said you've been doing this 20 years ago, so right around that time is when the internet really boomed right before that. Yeah. And so since then there's a slow bit slow deterioration.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I would have never have thought of that. And I I had no clue because I've always thought of Mormons as being highly educated in their faith and them able to answer and all this type of stuff, yeah. With their apologetics.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, but it's interesting from hearing you that that's declining.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, there's there's always going to be apologists for there's always gonna be defense attorneys for for guilty people, right? There's always gonna be of course. Um and and in fact, you know, I I think that you know the TikTok kind of um you know low attention span might work in their favor because you know, you can click on something and and get uh it's it's easily to it's easy to defend yourself if there's no you know dialogue, right? If there's no back and forth, if there's no debate. And so you can do that with with you know little sh reels and shorts and whatever Instagram thingies, whatever they're called.

SPEAKER_03

Was there um was there a reason you were pulled into um that work with evangelizing to Mormons in particular, or was this just hey, these are people that are lost that need to hear the word of God, and this is an opportunity?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the the reason that we go talk to to Mormons, and and I I would say new agers, there's a there's a similarity too, is is they're open to spiritual conversations, right? Mormons are evangelistic, they're they're comfortable talking about their faith, and so they're you know, they go to door to door, they go on missions, they they see that as honorable. And so if you start a conversation uh about spiritual things, most most often they're they're open to that. They're more open to that for sure than than maybe the rest of the world. Uh new agers as well, right? Um what is new age? What is the definition of a new ager?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's a it's a mixed bag. Because that term gets thrown around. Yeah, but is there an actual definition to it?

SPEAKER_00

Uh probably. Uh yeah, I would just say it it's people that that would consider this themselves spiritual, uh, but it has nothing to do with Christianity. And so it can include everything from aliens to uh enlightenment to um you know like um psychics to um astral projection to and all of it is ultimately demonic. Sure. But but right, I'm spiritual, I'm open, you know, and and it's and it's absolutely um, you know, it's absolutely uh what is it called? Um, you know, the the the God is everywhere, God is in everything, we're God, you know, all those things. So um but they're open to having conversations. And so we take kids out to Sedona and we take kids out to Salt Lake City. And yeah, why did I why why did I do it every year since then? Because yeah, my heart broke for the Mormon people, and I got to see Christians sharing challenged to sharing their faith, and just how radically it changed them. It changed me. It was it was huge for me that that that I had the confidence to do that and the assurance to do that, that I'd studied that you know that that that the Bible has great answers, that Christianity has great answers, um, that there are these red flags and these huge problems. Um, you know, when you when you start diverting from the truth of God's word, and that can be exposed, right? And so I saw kids that you know were were scrambling, that you know, so they would go, so we would prepare them and train them, and they would go out and have conversations, and we'd come back and they'd be like, Oh, what's that verse that says, you know, God is spirit? What is that verse that you know, this and that, and they're in their Bibles and they're underlining, they're highlighting. Like, that's the best. Yeah, that's awesome. Seeing them be almost supercharged to want to go and stuff. Yeah. So, and that they're confident that they understand, you know, so so we're you know, what is the gospel? How do you share the gospel? Like, yeah, what what are what are the you know the simple truths of of Christianity that that the new age or or Mormonism or atheism or anything else, you know, what are those things that are that are going to be in conflict with that? And and how, you know, what are some creative ways to to express that? And so, you know, you're looking at classical apologetics of cosmological argument, teleological argument, but also just you know, what what does scripture say? And so you're you're you're hungry for, you're you're a student of, you're you're desperate for the truth of God's word. And so you're in God's word, you're studying it, um, you're you're trusting it. And yeah, so so so evangelism and apologetics start to get real blurry for me, right? It's just different audiences. Sure. And then um years later, when I when I start looking at counseling, it's it's the same thing. You're listening to people, you're looking for opportunities to speak truth into their life, you're you're opening up these evangelistic conversations, you're pointing them to Christ. It's just a different audience, right? Um, so so so it they're very similar things when I'm talking to a Mormon, or I'm talking to someone who's grown up in the church and been in the church for their whole life, knows scripture maybe even better than I do, but it but isn't thinking about it in in the way that they're applying it to their own life, right?

SPEAKER_03

One of our uh Marcus came on a while back. Yeah. And he said that that first trip that he went on with you, because he went on one of those trips, yeah, and he said he got absolutely destroyed.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And but he said that it was one of the most impactful moments and humbling moments.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know. So you want to be wise when you're taking kids, you want to train them well, and yeah, yeah, you I mean, you can get destroyed by by someone who's a good speaker or you know, has a couple, you know, points to a couple verses that you've never heard of, right? We try to give them, you know, simple kind of things, always look at things in context because people can pull things out of context. But yeah, you can still get you can still get worked over um by it. But that's the thing that but these trips are maybe not the epitome, but definitely a picture of discipleship where we're eating meals together and we're saying, okay, you know, what were your conversations like? And and what were the hard things and what were the the the places you got stumped? Were the where were the good things? Where you know, and so we're we're trying to help them, um, and we're there for them. And so you have mature Christians with with you know, less mature Christians who are who are training them and teaching them and walking alongside them and celebrating with them as they're sharing the gospel. And we're you know, and we're and you know, we don't we don't include, you know, we don't plan for, but but absolutely there's laughter and goofiness and inside jokes and all that kind of stuff. And you're doing life together and you're in the trenches. And and you come back and you eat and you you you know you get bandaged up and you you get more ammunition and then you go back out and you do it again. We do that for like a week, you know? And uh it's awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I I the closest thing I can relate to that is I would bring um um I was uh involved in a ministry that would take people down to an orphanage down in Tijuana. It was just day trips because it's close by, it's two hours away. And I would bring my students who know nothing of outside of South Orange County, San Clemente, Dana Point, San Juan, and this little bubble that we have. And um, you know, I would bring them down and you saw their eyes opened of people living in how they live in certain parts of that town. And um, but it's only two hours away, yeah, Morgan. Yeah, you're right. And watching their heart turn for people in a way that you know months of studying the Bible didn't do because they're seeing something different, yeah, that's close to home, yeah, and then wanting to do something about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, ministry trips, outreach trips, evangelism trips, apologetic trips. Yeah, this is where discipleship is is is happening, be it in small doses, but I think that's probably the closest that we get to kind of the New Testament doing life together, right? And yeah, we can have you know discipleship where like, hey, let's meet, you know, once a week and go through the Bible and stuff like that. But that's different than living under the same roof, eating the same food, sleeping and snoring, and yeah, just just all the stuff that comes with that. Yeah. And they and and you know, there's there's opportunities as well beyond apologetics, beyond evangelism of just, you know, you are sharing the gospel all day long, the Holy Spirit is doing um work on your own heart. And so you see kids that are repentant, you see kids that are um just opening up and being vulnerable about the struggles that they're having as well. And so the the typical apologist, right, is is this guy who reads a bunch of books and has all this head knowledge and debates and and that kind of stuff, and then the the thing that I've really found joy in is is is being pastoral in these trips where you're shepherding people. Yes, they're doing apologetics, yes, they're doing evangelism, they're doing all these things. But also I've got college kids that are that are you know that have done this a couple of times and they're pouring into high school kids, yeah, you know, and and they love it. And I'm challenging, you know, these these young leaders to lead well and to to sacrifice and to it's really good.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, and I mean I can only imagine the fruit that you've seen and one that sticks out in particular is you have Marcus now as the high school pastor, yeah, you know, leading and leading those trips, lived out in Utah full time for how long? What like three years or something? You know, I mean years at on end. Yeah. Uh he shared with us his experience, and I mean that's direct from the ministry that you led. And um, and now he's impacting kids, you know, leading kids there, and who knows where the next Marcus is gonna come from. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

And that's I mean, that's that's the goal. Yeah, that's Christianity. That's that's what it's all about. It's yeah, making disciples who make disciples who make disciples. That's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I mean, and so you started this all the way back then, but then at some point you said that you've been at Christ's community for 15 years. Yeah. How did you come to Christ's community?

SPEAKER_00

So we're part of a home church and we meet on Saturday nights, and we love it. It's small, it's funky. I'm learning to teach. Still not on my radar that I would ever do anything in ministry, would I consider like like two minutes?

SPEAKER_03

Why why was it on your radar?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. I was a biochemist. Um I mean, I like teaching Bible studies and stuff, but like, okay, first of all, this is just not how you do it, right? This is anyone who's listening is like, oh, how do I how do I go into pastoral ministry? This is not the way that you do it. And so uh the reality is we had some friends at Christ Community Church, and um, and so just through friendships, we started, you know, we we started getting to know people there. And it turns out they um through a through a community group that they had, um, they just invited us into that, even though we didn't go to the church. And so uh also we had we had a family rule that that if for for whatever reason, you know, when you have like six or seven families as your church or your home church, uh there are just times when you know it things collide and it's like, hey, we're not meeting because you know there's gonna be two people there or whatever. Yeah, or so if if if it was the case that we didn't meet on a Saturday night, we would go to the local church. And so uh Christ community was often the church that we just end up going to on a Sunday morning. So between that, making friends there, uh being invited in this community group, we just started to connect with several couples there. And one of them was the pastor of the church, who was Charles Moore at the time. And so he and I hit it off right away. He loved apologetics. We talked about theology, we talked about, you know, uh evangelism, all kinds of stuff. And so he invites me uh to lunch, and I told Michelle, I go, she goes, Well, why are you why are you going to lunch with Charles? And I go, I don't know. I think like he's gonna ask me to be like like a member at his church or something, I don't know. And so we go to lunch, and he goes, Um, hey, I want you to come on as as an associate pastor. And I was like, I said, Are you are you kidding me? Um and so he said, No, he said, I I need someone to to do the college ministry, I want someone to do apologetics and evangelism, and um, you know, there's just some opportunity for some men's discipleship stuff. I was like, I like all that stuff, but I'm already involved, you know, I'm involved in this other church. Let me think about it. So I go home, talk to Michelle, I talk to the people of the church, and at that time, Jim was, you know, starting to, you know, he his first book had just come out. He was getting tons of requests to go speak. And um uh uh some of the other families were like, well, actually, we're we're involved in this other ministry over here, we're doing church over here, and so it was just in God's perfect timing. We all said, Yeah, we're good. Like we can all kind of go over separate ways. We're already, already doing all these other things, and this has been a blessing to us, but I think I think we're supposed to go do all these other different things that we're we're involved with. So I came back to Charles and I said, Okay, I said, I said, look, I I have a full-time job. Yeah, right. You know, I have a full-time job and a family. I said, but let's let's give it a try. I said, you know, let's try for a year. If I still like doing this, you know, we'll we'll talk about it. If you still like me after a year. And uh so that's how the first year was. And uh about what year was this? Uh this was uh 2011, I think. Okay. Yeah. Okay. 2000, yeah, something like that. Okay, yeah. Um, and so yeah, I was brought on as associate pastor of uh uh discipleship and did community groups, did college ministry, did also adult Sunday school, wore a lot of hats. Wow, yeah, that's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but I loved it. Um how did you balance? I mean, being bi vocational is not an easy life, yeah. Especially when you're married, you have three kids, yeah. Um, at that point, still all pretty young. Um, how did you balance all that?

SPEAKER_00

I have no idea. Uh part of part of it was that my job afforded me, like I said, there were there was a lot of downtime. So uh I was in manufacturing by that time. And so um we had we had maybe like three big manufacturing runs a year where for like a couple of weeks to a month I was I was committed. But because there was, you know, I'd go in at all hours of the night to make sure stuff was you know still running smoothly, so I had a lot of flexibility in my job. Okay, and and I was just honest from the beginning, um that hey, you know, can I can I have some flexibility? You're asking me to do all these things. Um and and yeah, it just by God's grace, I was able to do that. And so yeah, I was it was definitely juggling, but um yeah, I would I would while st while stuff was uh filtering and while stuff was um you know I I I would I would study and prepare and and and do that kind of stuff, and then yeah, because I because I was had had to you know be in there at all hours at some times of the year, then then I could kind of take some time off when I when I needed to. And it just it just worked. I don't know how it worked, but it worked.

SPEAKER_03

And so um was Michelle right there with you at the college ministry and doing all that or it was another thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So a big plus was or a big um rule, I guess, for me was yeah, I I didn't want my s family to suffer because of that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so because my kids were were then older. Um I mean, were they older at that point?

SPEAKER_03

How old are they?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I mean, definitely when I was doing the college ministry there, it wasn't long before my oldest was in the college ministry. Really? Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And so, yeah, so so part of it was, you know, they were part of that. Um, you know, Michelle's done uh college ministry with me. She's you know, obviously been part of our community group. And yeah, so she she's great at hospitality, she's great at like, you know, so if we have a a big dinner thing, she's there helping me doing doing that kind of stuff. So as much as possible, as much as possible. And this this was the case with the trips too. I mean, there were there were years where my kids were little and she just couldn't do it, and and we we were learned real quick, like this is not fun. And so when like you would bring the kids with you? No, well when yeah, there were times where I'd go by myself, and and that was and we were learned real quick, okay, we don't like this. Yeah, and so how can we do this as a family? How can we bring kids? How can we and so my kids were you know uh on the streets on the streets talking to the kids? They were there. Oh yeah, they were there. Yeah, like like my my youngest son, uh like he can't remember a time of when he's not done that, right? Wow. Yeah, so my kids just grew up thinking that was normal. I love it. Just little apprentices right there. Yeah, yeah. So they'd have their little tract and they'd be out there talking to people. You do you have pictures of that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh man, I gotta see pictures of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, so that's so that was key.

SPEAKER_00

And that's something I I definitely encourage people. Is like if you can, if you can or wherever you can to incorporate your family, right? Um and so yeah, when Michelle counsels with me, it's awesome. When we do premarital counseling or marriage counseling, it's great. And and then we go home, and then we walk, we, we, and then we walk away and we go, oh yeah, we need to, we need to be better at that. We need to work on that. We need to, you know. And so, yeah, as part as much as my kids and my wife can be part of the ministry that I'm doing, man, what a relief it is. And what I like, um yeah, what a burden that's that's taken off of me for them to be yeah integrated in that, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. I think with my work at Forest Home, one of my greatest joys was when I would give a tour, but Allie and Jack could be right there. Jack loves, I have this little off-road uh five passenger Kawasaki vehicle. Oh, cool, and he digs it. He loves it, and it's just a joy because he's right there with me through the whole thing, you know. Um you know, Pastor Rick was on a while back and he said something very similar, and that was having family always involved, always there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um because it you know, it's just pastoral life is already can be a lot, but being by by vocation is a whole other element.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And being a family man, especially three kids, how the question is, how do you do it all? Because we see so many pastors that haven't done it well, yeah, and either burn out or they give everything to the church and nothing to their family, so their family gets destroyed and all that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Even when my kids were too young, right? Or you know, the fact that they were around college students, right? That they were around other ministry leaders, that that we had people over, that we were doing counseling at our house, that they saw that and they were, you know, where where it was appropriate, they were they were listening in, right? So it's been great to have my kids grow up in this environment where this is normal and this is and that that our faith is integrated, right? It doesn't just happen at the church, it doesn't just happen on Sunday mornings. Um, but there are people over and you know, we're crying with, or we're counseling, or we're you know, uh being hospitable and and and laughing and whatever, and having theological talks around the kitchen table. That for my kids is normal. They they don't know anything else. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_03

I mean, pastor, you're coming home, you you know, you're bivocational, but you're a pastor at the church. Yeah, what does the dinner table theological talk look like?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's it's just having having having the body of Christ in your home, you know, as is appropriate. We have kids around. I mean, obviously, there's counseling stuff that we're like, you know, we need some privacy, we need some whatever. But for for years, um, either in the house church or just in our home, yeah, just having meals with people, inviting people over, having other families in our home, and and um when I do a membership interview with someone, right? Sure. I mean, I could do it at the church and whatever, but I'd I'd rather I'm so much I'd rather have a meal with someone, bring your kids, let my kids play with your kids. We've got, you know, we we we've kept some of the the kids' toys, you know, we have we have it, and and we have it exactly for that. When people come over and we just, you know, have and and we just talk. And so the conversation, you know, it doesn't need to be private, but it's like, what is the church? What does membership look like? What does it look like? How how can we serve you in the church? How can how do you want to serve in the church? What are what are your questions? What are your concerns? What are your fears? You know, those those kind of things. And that's that's just normal.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, and now your kids are all grown, one's married, one's engaged, right? Yeah. Um, and then you have another one, Logan, that is pursuing uh ministry. Yeah. So there is good fruit from how you raise them.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we've been blessed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So what everything you're talking about seems to have really worked. And so that's awesome. Yeah. Whereas I'm thankful. Uh yeah, and those are things, especially as somebody that has a almost two-year-old, which is crazy to think about that, he's almost two. Um, those are all things that I'm watching for, looking for of best practices and you know, how to. You know, there's no instruction manual that's given to you at the hospital when they're born. Um and so uh, but that's what Christ created the body for, is that's for this exactly. Yeah. Um, how did Michelle respond to you coming home after that meeting with Charles Moore? What was her reaction to that?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, I mean, she's I think she just kind of knew that I was kind of crazy like that, that I would give it a try. And here's the reality is is we loved the home church and it and we grew in so many different ways. But there was there were things that were hard about it, right? So when you only have a couple families, you know, your minute your your women's ministry is is just a couple ladies. Yeah. And your children's ministry is just a couple kids, right? And we had grown, especially her, she had grown up in the church where, you know, especially high school, you know, and junior high and stuff, it was just like kids and fun and you know, obviously the gospel and but but just that bigger connection and community. And so leaving the house church and coming to Christ community was an answer to prayer for a lot of those things. So yeah, she she loved getting involved with women's ministry. She loved that our kids were surrounded by other kids of godly families and and that there was a you know, there were people that were serving in in in children's ministry and and that kind of stuff. So there was camps and there was all that stuff, right? So so for Michelle, it was it was exciting and and there was good things that that she saw in that. Um and you know, I get she she she has always been helpful in um saying, hey, we need to be a part of this. You need to figure out how to have our family involved in this, or you know, or or she would not let me Michelle can be spicy and hey, I guess. Yeah, so so yeah, I mean she she has always been a partner in helping me to to stay um true to the convictions that we have of of of not um that our first our first ministry is our is our is our home, our first ministry is our family. Um yeah. And so yeah, uh Charles left um we had an interim pastor for a while, Rick came on, uh, and through all that, yeah, it's been great and grown. And then three years ago, that was probably the hardest thing for her, was for me to say, hey, I'm leaving uh my my career of biochemistry for 25 years and going into full-time ministry.

SPEAKER_03

So how did that conversation come about? Was that something that was an ongoing conversation, or is that a conversation that you and Rick or you and the elders eventually just had? How did that happen?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um going from bivocational to now full-time. Yeah, I mean, by God's grace, the the church was growing. Um, the gross the church was was doing well financially. Um there were some uh employment changes with worship leaders and different things coming on. There was an uh wanting to have an emphasis emphasis uh of counseling, and so um when I initially proposed coming on, um counseling wasn't necessarily in in in the forefront of my mind. And Rick, again, another godly man who's who's you know pointed me or seen things that I haven't necessarily seen, uh uh said, Well, why don't you go back to school, get your master's in counseling, and and be have a focus on counseling. Did you ever think of counseling that you'd be invited? Well, I did. Again, I thought I thought it was, you know. It was an extension of apologetics and evangelism. I I I enjoyed the the the little counseling that I was uh was doing. I enjoyed the counseling classes, but I thought, oh man, like you know, I don't know that I'm a counselor. Um, but I think yeah, Rick saw something in me that I I didn't yet see. Um, went went to Westminster, went through the CCF, uh, masters for counseling, loved it, learned a ton, finally it took some theology, some real theology classes, uh, official theology classes, so to speak. Um, yeah, and got my master's and and love counseling. Just yeah, as I as you go through the program, um, not only you're learning, but you're you're having to counsel. You're having, you know, you need so many hours, you have to video yourself, you have to be critiqued by others. And so just the more that I do that, the more that I'm just like, oh man, you know, God has known what's best for me all along. And I just, you know, I've just tumbled backwards into it. But was that hard going back into the classroom? Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, not not the learning part of it. I I love learning. Yeah, you know, I'd be a lifelong learner um and not get anything else done. But um, no, I mean the hard part was was definitely just having to say no to some things. And um, you know, especially in Southern California in the summertime when everyone's at the beach and surfing, this and that. Um, yeah, it was it was hard, but it wasn't, you know, uh I still felt like I I could I could juggle things with with ministry and you know, there there was there was an understanding there was that in school um and and with my family, and so yeah, it went by really in in some ways it was hard and took a long time, in other ways it went flew by.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I mean I think ever since we've known each other, because we showed up to Christ Communion February 22. Yeah. So you were in school at that point, right? Yeah. So you've always been in school up until you just graduated this past year. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um and you're done. I'm done. Unless you're gonna go for your doctorate. Nope. Dr. Thatford, nope. Hey, hey, I think if if I've I've if I've heard anything from you in this conversation, never say never.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's true. If God wants me to do that, he'll figure a way to draw me into it for sure.

SPEAKER_03

But I can see it had a nice ring to it. Dr.

SPEAKER_00

Thatford. Yeah. You know, I'm okay. Yeah, I I I love what I'm doing. Um I love having gone through uh the experience and the training, and yeah, it's it's great. And it's and again, it's just it's nothing that I would have that I planned that I could have planned or would have imagined, or again, if you're if you're thinking about becoming a pastor, this is not the way that you do it. There's a disclaimer on this, but um, but God has been just so good to me. Yeah. I mean and part of it too is like like my prayer has been, yeah, God, use use me however you can. Yeah you know, whatever that looks like. Um I haven't done that perfectly, but he in God's uh divine humor, he's like, all right, here we go.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, you mentioned this is not the way, but is there really that's my is there really a way to become a pastor? I mean, because we've had so many different people on from different backgrounds, it doesn't seem like there's any one way. Like, of course, there's something in our heads of okay, you're saved in the nursery at church, and then you go through, you know, like this, but is there one way? Like, there I don't think there is one way.

SPEAKER_00

I think Yeah, I I maybe that maybe there are easier ways. Sure, yeah, of course. Yeah, uh, I mean, yeah, God couldn't do what he wants, and he's done that with me. Yeah, um, I I don't know that I would say this is the preferred way or the or the the you know, but um yeah, I I I I yeah, I would say just be open to what however God would use you and to be obedient and to to trust and and you never know where that whether that's gonna be. One thing, so so this this this is the this is the thing that's most powerful for me is I try to be that person for other people, right? I try to be the person that says, Hey, have you ever thought about being a community group leader? Hey, have you ever thought about being an elder? Hey, hey, have you ever thought about and and trying to see in other people what they might not see in themselves, right? And so, you know, maybe that's maybe that's pastoral ministry, maybe that's um something else, but but trying to encourage people, um, especially guys who who sometimes need that, sometimes need that um, someone else to say, man, I see something in you that that if you're willing to humble yourself and take good counsel, to to to have a hopeful vision for people.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and I think guys we need that in the church. We need pastors like yourself that someone saw that in you. And for us for the next generation, we we need guys like that that that point us in that direction. We need that. When we're trying to figure out and figure out our place in the church, and you know, us as men, we we are inclined, we are given this I don't know what you call it, but God-given necessity to serve. Um and we need more mature, more seasoned, those that have walked with the Lord longer than we have to point us in, hey, have you ever thought about this? We need that. And and guys need challenge, too. They need challenge. Oh my gosh. I my cousin, I love her to death. Uh she, single mom for most of the time, had this 17-year-old boy who didn't really have dad around. And she was calling me about different things, and I said, sh and he had just enlisted in the Marines, and I said, Good. Because young men, you know, he didn't really have direction or anything, and but I said, This is gonna give him the challenge that he needs, you know. Uh us as men, we need that. Um and serving in the church is something that we need to do, it's not something that um that should be an option. Yeah, it is there's freedom in Christ, we know that, but we need to be here. Yeah, um, and that that looks differently in seasons, just like you. It's been different. I mean, you went from, you know, uh my house church to part-time now to full-time. I mean, it's looked differently. And especially, I mean, um, and that's looked different from as you talked about preaching with a baby on your hip, which I hope there's a picture of that. Is there a picture of that? Oh man, I gotta ask Michelle because if anybody would take a picture, it must have been Michelle. Yeah, um to now that was before iPhones. I know, I know. Um to now, I mean, you know, you're you're not gonna be a or are you gonna be a grandpa? I can't remember. You are gonna be a grandpa, that's right. That's right. So I mean, life changes and seasons change, and your level of service changes as that grows.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and so now, I mean, you've been full-time now for a few years. What does day-to-day look like for you now? What is your focus now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, I do a lot of counseling.

SPEAKER_03

Men, couples, everything. Yeah. Everything.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah. Um, and trying to also develop our counseling ministry where I'm encouraging, again, trying to challenge and and see in other people um their potential, yeah, and and and make that road easy for them. Um so yeah, we we need more counselors. It's it's interesting, it's kind of this chicken and egg thing, but the more yeah, yeah, you need more counselors to be able to counsel more people to be able to, you know, uh that kind of thing. But yeah, trying to encourage, encourage people and help them and watch them, so to speak. So there is definitely a training aspect of it that people need to go through through the training, uh, but then they also need to get the experience. And so getting them in the counseling room to watch me and other counselors eventually to to start um offering offering counsel as well, and then to for them to be over um have oversight, and then them to be on their, you know, to be able to counsel, and so developing that, um working with other ministries, so working with men's, women's, children's, youth. How can I how can we integrate counseling into those areas as well? So, what does it look like to make counseling available or to to have aspects of counseling? Uh, like in men's women's ministries, so we have a men's conference coming up or retreat and and offering counseling there. Oh, when's our retreat? Um, that's a great question. Ah, it's in the planning stages. Okay. So I'm the worst with calendars. Okay. I could find out for you. Um, but but yeah, so men's ministry, I just uh men's breakfast, I just I just spoke at.

SPEAKER_02

Um did a great job.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, when I preach, right? I'm I'm gonna preach with more of a a count a lean on into counseling. It's still that's exegetical, but but definitely thinking in that way. Um, so how how do we, you know, this is one of our uh five-year initiatives, is one of one of the things we value in the church. And so how how do how do I help other ministries to to incorporate that and and integrate that? That's part of what I do.

SPEAKER_03

How many so how many counselors now have you been able to develop? And how many counselors are coming?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we we have uh we have a handful that are at different stages. Um some who have come from other kind of backgrounds, some who are more homegrown, um, some who are just starting out. Um, yeah. So I I I definitely have uh a female and a male counselor that I I lean heavily on. Uh I need a lot more than that. So people are interested in counseling, and but yeah, but I have people all the time who come up and say, Hey, I I'm really interested in this. The hard part about it is it's not just like, oh, you know, uh get your fingerprinting and and you can go teach Sunday school in two weeks, right? Yeah, right. There is an investment in it. Yeah. And um, and so I I I I get that. Yeah. That it's that there is some training that needs to go into that. Um, and so trying to encourage people to to do that and come alongside them.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, it's been such a valuable ministry. I mean, we've benefited from that. Um, I know many people who do the coffee and conversations, and it's it's so valuable. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's open to more than just the church, it's open for anybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, our hope our hope is that you know we would have plenty of counselors that we would be able to serve not only our church, um, but actually advertise and try and draw people in. So if someone looks up, you know, someone's marriage is falling apart apart and they look up divorce or or marriage counseling or something like that, the the Christ community counseling ministry would be something that they would be at the top of the list of of things that they could do and and we we could offer to someone. Oh that's so good. Yeah, whether whether whether they're believers or not, and just say, hey, that we're offering counsel here. It's biblical counsel, but um, we're offering it.

SPEAKER_03

So if you're in the area and need counseling, come to Christ Community Church, look up Tim. Uh please. It is so good.

SPEAKER_00

I can I can definitely or if you're interested in in in being a counselor, yeah. I mean, so that's the chicken and egg thing. It's like the more that we do this, the more that word of mouth spe you know um happens, the more that requests come in. And yeah, if we don't have more counselors, the the reality is that there's gonna be a waiting list and it's gonna get longer and longer. And that's just the reality that we see in a lot of churches that that do this. So really, yeah. A waiting list. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. We're already like almost maxed out. So really, yeah. Yeah, wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's incredible. But I mean, that just shows the need.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, there's so much. I mean, we could probably just do a whole podcast, and we may have to do this just on the need of counseling, what's causing that. We're gonna have to do that. It's just a whole podcast on that, because there's so much that's that's yeah, that's a whole episode in itself, so we'll have to do that. Um, so we're getting towards the end here. What so for that that individual, that that guy that is aspiring to the role, as it talks about in First Timothy 3, what are two or three pieces of wisdom advice do, don't do, uh, that you could offer uh as they're looking into this and wondering and praying through that of hey, I think I'm a s I I I think I think pastoral ministry is in my future.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would say definitely don't do it in isolation. I mean, talk to godly men who don't necessarily have to be pastors. Um, I mean, definitely talk to your pastors, talk to your elders. Yeah. Um, but but also talk just talk to other people who can speak to your character because ultimately scripture it's it's about it's about your character, right? And so even if you can, you know, preach your socks off, um if you're not a shepherd, if you're not caring for people, I mean this is what we look for as elders, right? Who are the guys that are already doing this? Who are the guys that that are loving on, that are caring for, that are concerned about and are moving towards people, right? And so yes, absolutely, preaching is part of that and teaching is part of that. Um but but st you know, I mean you may you you may need to grow in in some areas and and so talk to people who will be honest with you and encourage you and be real with you. Um and then be uh willing to hear hard things and be willing to change and be willing to um you know be under the authority of of of your church and uh being accountable to to other godly men who who are gonna ask you hard questions and yeah, I would say that. I would say and uh and I would say, you know, uh consider your family. You know, is this something that that is going to be can can you incorporate your family in this? Can you can you you know and obviously you can't do that perfectly, but are there ways in which you can um come you know, your family can come alongside you and and do that? Even even to you know, college ministry or like to have you to have little kids around, right, is not the coolest thing, but yet college kids love family, and and you don't know where and and some of them are coming from families that are messed up and to to have and to be around you know, a normal family, a good family, a family that loves Jesus is is huge. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I mean we I remember you asked, I think it was you who asked me to come and speak one time and it was at the house. We were doing a pool party or something, and Jack was there. And at that point, I think he was about six months old or something, seven months or however old, somewhere around there. Yeah, and it was awesome. Yeah, it was it was great. Kids loved him. You and uh you and Kat were playing with him in the pool, and yeah, you know, other other other college kids were hanging out with him. It's it's cool, and he did older older kids, heck yeah, I'm gonna be with him. Yeah, you know, yeah, and so yeah, I think what better place for you to raise your kids than in that type of environment, watching them see you teach the word and counsel and all that. That's the best environment for them to be involved in. And um well, thank you for coming and sharing about your journey and sharing about you know just how God has used you and uh challenged you and uh brought you on a journey that you never thought it has landed you in a place of immense blessing, yeah. Um, but completely different from what you thought life was gonna look like. For sure. Um and and so for those listening, know that um you may have a plan, but so does God, and rarely is that the same thing. And so um, as Tim Tim said, get with godly men that know you and will have the tough conversations with you um about life, marriage, ministry, all that above and above. Um and uh thank you for tuning in today, and we'll see you next time.