EP. 20: BREAKING DOWN AFRO HOUSE'S ALLEGED DECLINE & AI VS ARTISTS

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Episode 20.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

20?

SPEAKER_00 0:10

This is 20, man. Episode 20. Everyone is a DJ. Did we ever get to episode 20 on uh no guest list?

SPEAKER_02 0:18

No, no. I think I think that was like I think we did seven and then we called it a day. No.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Yeah. Seven?

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Maybe less, actually.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

That is appalling. That's that's actually embarrassing. Seven episodes, and then hung it up.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

I'm gonna I'm gonna verify that. It might be even less. No, we did ten. We did ten. I take that back.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

We did ten. Okay, okay, okay. It makes me feel better. All right. So we've doubled our amount for everyone is a DJ. Of course, the goal is to get to at least 200 and see where we are. Perhaps we'll uh we'll exit an IPO and uh get an investor in and do all of those nice things.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

But you'll never hear from me again, bro. My dream job is to be unemployed but have a suspicious amount of money, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

I think I think knowing you, you'll get tired. You get you'll get bored after like one day.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah, my attention span is is too short for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, you can get bored after like you can only play golf so much, bro. You can only play golf for so long, and then you're like, all right, you're gonna be calling my phone.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah, yeah. What are we doing? What are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

You know what I'm saying? Um, what's going on, man? How's your weekend? What's what's what's happening?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Uh it's been good, bro. Long weekend here in Toronto. I mean, I talk about the weather a lot, but that's just a lifestyle we live out here, and it's finally warm. I was in shorts and a t-shirt yesterday. I'm in shorts and a t-shirt today. The beers are flowing, the patios are open. Life is good, man. Life is good. What about you, bro? That's how you're feeling.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Okay. That's how you're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

I finally need to get some uh get a tan going. I'm the same color as my background, so hopefully, in the next couple episodes, we'll see a good change and also a change on the background guys. I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah, guys. Please, can you please comment some some suggestions, some recommendations for Wesley's background? You can see my background. I've got hats and plants and you know, everything.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I think if I don't if I don't fix it, Mano's gonna kick me off the podcast. So help me out, guys.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Listen, kick you off the podcast. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna buy your stake of club record back. I'm gonna I'm doing all of that. You know what I'm saying? Um, I got it. I'm working on it. What's going on? What else has been going on? I got back from Moldova yesterday, so I was playing in Kissing out Saturday night. Yeah, sometimes I don't know how how like very busy DJs do it. Um I had two gigs this week, one in London and then in Moldova, as I said, but sometimes you just feel like you're just it's almost like having this outer body experience. You're just traveling, you're in the air, you're playing, you're meeting people, then you're back at the airport, and you're back home and you're sleeping and you're back in the gym. It's just like things move so quickly, and it's it's surreal sometimes. Yeah. But at the same time, I I I realize and acknowledge that it is a quite privileged way of living, and and you know, you you're making decent amount of money in one day, which is great. But uh yeah, Moldova is interesting country. Anytime I go to Eastern Europe, it's almost like an eye-opener of uh of how the culture is and how they live and and how hard they party, bro. Those people they fucking party. They know how to party, they're drinking, and it's very hospitable. They know how to host you, they know how to take care of you. Have you been to Eastern Europe? Have you have you ever been to Germany?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, I've been to I've been to Germany, right? I've been to like some I've been to like Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, Czech Republic, Poland. Um, it's a great I've been yeah, I've been to quite a few places, but how would you kind of like describe their interpretation of Afrohouse? Like, are you playing a little bit more into the commercial melodic, or where where do you kind of find that the audience responds?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

I think so. I was having a conversation with some some artists that they're fans of Club Records, so they hit me up and they were like, Oh, they didn't know you were in town, let's go for for lunch. So I met them quickly as I was checking out for for an hour, literally before I went to the airport. Okay, and I was asking them about Eno and Apple, because Eno played in Kissinao about a month ago, and they were telling me the crowd was just not responding at all to Eno. And then I was asking about Kana music, and they said, Yeah, of course, they go crazy for kinda, right? So I think I think Kana music we underestimate how much they've contributed to the growth of the sound, and not just the commercial Afro house, but also open doors for for the more I guess underground Afrotechie Afro House. But they're still like way far ahead, you know, in comparison to everyone else. Like there's no comparison. Eastern Europe, you know, most European countries as well, like when it comes to kind of music, their impact is crazy. But yeah, I felt it a lot this weekend when I was there. Yeah. I say that, but then in my set, I couldn't really play the slower commercial Afro House because they were responding more to like harder, groovier, deeper, more bassy sounds. Yeah, and I'm not sure if that is because the sound is changing now and we're moving towards this more indie dance techno-ish vibe. But yeah, it's it's it's a weird one to um to adjust to when you're a DJ sometimes. Like you just gotta know how to how to read the crowd and have a USB ready, otherwise, you know, you're almost like a fish out of water.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah, no, look, I mean that that makes sense. You know, the other day on our Everyone is a DJ Um Instagram page, we posted a question is pop is the popularity of what did we say, indie melodic? Indie dance overtaking indie dance overtaking Afrohouse. And I had like a really old friend of mine reach out that I grew up with. We haven't spoken in years, and he was like, bro, I'm so tired of this, like he says like commercial Afrohouse. You all know kind of know what that means, kind of music-ish. And everybody's craving like now a different sound. So I think the beginning, the beginning of the Enunapa Afrotech, you know, on an international thing is poised for growth. Will it happen or not? I don't know. But I think it should because people want a deeper sound, you know, groovier, deeper, deeper bass, you know, kind of as you described for Moldova. And I'm curious to see if that's actually gonna happen or not for AfroTech.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Is there is there a recent Afro House release that is the more commercial style that is doing well that came out in 2026? Oh, that's a good question, man. I'm trying to, um, and the fact that we're struggling to come up with one is is answers the question, right? It's like I can't think of one like the final song, right? Yeah, like one super strong what people call commercial Afrohouse style track that came out in 2026. And listen, we are in almost in June, six months in the year. I'm sure there is, but I can't think of one.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I think the big the big the big songs for me is like it's not Afro House. Like I think Let Me Talk to You is probably the biggest track of the year so far. It's not Afro House at all. It's not, it's not, but that's the point, right? Is that that's what people are kind of gravitating towards generally. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Commercially has to be Jamaican, right? Yeah. Did that come out this year or late last year? Let me let me verify. But yeah, it has to be Jamaican. Has to be Jamaican. Uh positions is not not positions, sorry. B be the one that's on categorized as melodic. Yeah. Techno, house techno.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

So Jamaican is November 7, 2025. So it is technically not this year, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Okay, Jamaican is November, but I I feel like it's it's dominated 2026. Yeah, absolutely. If I just think about kind of music, not many releases. If I look at who else is is killing it, obviously who girl. Nightfree, yeah, released, but Francis, what about Francis? Shinzo has Firefire last year.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Firefire last year. I mean, Francis has quite a quite a few releases this year. I mean, Inshallah was his latest one, but still his his his catalogue is dominated by his older stuff, Saudi, Sate, Premier Gao, Camellia. Absolutely. You know.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

So listen, I mean, it sounds like that commercial Afrohouse isn't being made and it's not released at a high level at high quality. Like we're struggling to come up with one. Yeah. It's it's it's it's it's I don't want to say it's dead, but it's looking that way. Yeah. It's on the ground and it's not moving.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

We can talk about, at least in my world, what's been going on in Toronto for a sec. It's like, you know, a lot of when summer kicks off, like the events really turn up a notch, right? So there's one event, it's run by the owners of this club, Soluna. They do a day festival called Solanda, and they booked Habibi Beats. But a couple years ago, they would have had Punchapa, Cairo, um, those kind of guys. And then one of our biggest festivals of the year here is um it's called Electric Island, right? It's three weekends out of the summer, once a month from May to August. And um the lineup, there was like no Afro House at all. There was Martinez Brothers as a surprise guest, the other headliner was Adriatique. Um and it was packed, man. Absolutely packed. So even on this side of the world, I think we're just not seeing as much consumption of that summertime Afro House. You know, everybody was looking for a more, you know, techno, melodic, whatever you want to call it, um, which is unfortunate. It's sad.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think I'm just thinking about the producers that that shape our sound right now, and we're doing Afro House before it became commercial and popular, right? So guys like Shimza, the B3B guys, Kitty Amore. But I would say Kitty Amore this year, she's been consistent and releasing very, very good music. Um, so I would put her up there. Like, if you were to ask me who's releasing the best Afro House in 2026, Kitty has to be up there, man. She has to be.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah, no, I I totally agree. I've been a I've been a big fan of Kitty for the longest time. I mean, her last release from this past Friday was Shine the Lights on her label Mahaba. Tough, tough. Bro, she's on her own wavelength, like her own interpretation, her own production. It's just sweet spots, man.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah, kitty's up there, kitty's up there. But back to what you were saying about people getting tired of Afro House, there was a a clip on social about David Gedda complaining about this, and it's like when Afro House became popular, you know, everybody was playing it, then you're booking these DJs and they're all playing the same music, and then you go into restaurants, they're playing Afro House, you go into shopping stores, they're playing Afro House, but now everyone's tired, right? Everyone's just tired, everyone's moving on, and it's like it's lasted 18 months, not even when it was like at its peak, right? Crazy L fastings changed, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

You know what it reminds me of is do you remember a song called Oliver Twist? Oliva. Yeah, Oliva, Oliva Twist. So that that song was like the Tinder to the fire of Afro the Afrobeat boom like a few years back, right? So that like set the wave, then you know Afrobeat was everywhere. Like, you know, big celebrities were getting involved in the Afrobeat scene, and then it kind of like slowly um tapered off. But I think Afrohouse has had the same kind of life cycle where move was probably that song, I would think, for the most part, and then and then now we kind of we've passed the peak and we're on we're on we're on the decline, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Again, part of the reason why that is I think is just because people were jumping on a trend. Yeah. As they are now with Indie Dance, and that foundation isn't there. That yeah. Just that that that solid background isn't there for you to continue making that sound and and evolve it.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So this is why it's it's uh unfortunately it seems to be decreasing, but uh yeah, listen, I don't think all hope is lost. Not at all, not at all, no way. Well, let's see, man. Let's see what I think I was having this conversation in Moldova, right? And they were telling me, oh, so what do you think about everything, the sound, trends? And I was like, I want to see a year from now where things are, right? Yeah. End of 2027, middle to end of 2027, what's the sound? Is everyone trying to be like another? Is everyone trying to be like Adri Teach?

SPEAKER_03 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

What are what are people doing uh over the next year to 18 months?

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Yeah, I think as well. I mean, like, what this we've had this conversation before about like, oh, Afro House as this you know general category, and like unfortunately, for the most part, the interpretation of what is Afro House is is biased, just you know, based on the you know, kind of music-esque sound that you know overtook. But it's such a broad categorization now where you know, if somebody asks me how many subgenres of Afro House are there, I'd say there's quite a lot. You have you have gum, you have gum tech, you have you know, Afrotech, you have melodic, which also falls into Afro House a little bit at times. So it's like there's such a spectrum of different sounds and experiences depending on the kind of night that you're having, is that if you want a more like you know, techno-esque experience, like there are guys in our scene that can give that to you. And if you want something else, you need you like a more melodic sound, and you know. So I think there there's there's also gonna be this next phase of things where those subcategories start to get to the surface a little bit more as as time goes on.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

So who which artist do you think can contribute to to Afrohouse picking up again? Because I think rightfully so, every artist is entitled to doing as they please and and experiment and release different sounds. But for Afro House to return to its peak power, do you think it's it's just kind of music releasing another move? Do you think it's Black Coffee being more consistent in releasing? Is it Shimza giving us more tracks? Is it, you know, what what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 16:30

I think it's not necessarily about artists releasing certain songs. I mean, that'll contribute to it, but I think it's about those artists becoming selectors again and and like curators, tastemakers in the scene. Right? So it was like, okay, Kiny Music started playing that music, I think, before they started releasing it. So I think we're gonna see, you know, an influential name, you know, maybe a coffee, you know, maybe even an Adam Port individually, or an Anime, or someone else bringing their sets back to like a new subgenre of Afro House that might re-trigger like an adoption of a new type of sound. I'm I'm not sure. What do you think? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

I mean, I also think part of this sentiment, this overall conversation is people got annoyed with Afro House. Yeah. People got annoyed. Like it was just like you know, I mean, I was having a conversation with someone that we both know very close to us, and they were saying Afro House DJs in terms of like how to carry themselves and just relationship-wise, right? As humans, she was like, the worst. They're divas, they think they're superstars, they think they're bigger than music, all these things. And I think that's also part of the reason why people are moving away from it because it became such a um clickbaity social media thing, very driven by social media and and the hype of it. Yeah. That people were like, nah, this is this is this is BS.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

So I'll I'll tell you, I mean, a little bit about like what's going on in Toronto on like the ground level house music DJs and stuff like that. So I was having a conversation with uh somebody I know here, and he was like, Yeah, I'm looking for DJs. I was like, Yeah, I can I can play like if you're looking for it. And he's like, Oh, I'm not, I'm not looking for an Afro House DJ. And I said, like, how how can you say like I'm just an Afro House DJ? Like, you know, but it's it's the way you're marketing themselves. So somebody said to me, this is what I should start saying to promoters and club owners going forward is I'm a curator and DJ within melodic and global house space. Not that I'm an Afro House DJ anymore. Right. And I'm starting to see like a lot of the guys in Toronto that I know quite well, when we first connected, it was all through Afro House Music because that's what I was doing. I'd hit them up, you know, go for drinks, coffee, whatever. And now they're like, no, no, I'm not an Afro House DJ. I'm an indie house, I'm a melodic, I'm this, I'm a house music DJ. And the whole label of Afro House is kind of at least here, a little bit tainted, where it's like uh yeah, yeah, like he who must not be named, you know. Like you can play Afro House because it bangs and the crowd will love it, but you just can't say it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 19:26

It's it's like crazy, it's crazy how quickly people just just turn and I don't know. The thing is for that one year to 18 months where it was booming, people were fucking filling their pockets, yeah, with with with the success of it. And now it's like, all right, what's the next thing? It's crazy, mate. It's crazy. This industry is nuts. This is also yeah, gone.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I was gonna say it's like, yeah, we're we're having this. I mean, this is like I guess a very negative um interpretation of where things are going, and you know, but then if you take a look at like the Ibiza residencies that we've talked about, there's so much you know, Afro House presence and stuff like that. So who's right, who's wrong? Uh that's just personal experience, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Okay, so with the Ibiza lineups, for example, Coffee. I think we talked about this last week as well. He's a legend. Francis has created this experience around his shows. Of course, this is his first year at a big, big venue. Last year, he was at was he at Chinoa last year? Where was he last year?

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Chinois, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

He was at Chinoa last year, did well there. Obviously, he got rewarded for that. Shimza at a Test residency, which I've gotta say, and I'll be honest here. When I see Frankie Rizzardo's clips compared to Shimza, there is a difference, and I understand that Pasha the sound is different, the clientele is different, so there is an education element that has to happen there.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Um who else?

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Major League.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Major League. Major League starting soon, they haven't started yet. But it's interesting though, man, because again, as Afro House is on this decline and we've got all these residencies, I'm gonna go this week, right, to check it out. Check out Shinza, check out I think that's it, bro. I was like, maybe, maybe coffee. Who else am I saying?

SPEAKER_02 21:42

That's all you that's all you got planned. Wait, wait, wait. Before we move on, that's all you're you're doing in Ibiza?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

No, but for for Alfra House.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Oh mate, we've got a we've got a every day there's something going on. But so we're seeing Blondish, we're seeing Shimza. We're going to Ushway, I think, I forget who's playing there. We're doing Blue Marlin.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Okay, so all the all the majors.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, all the majors, all the majors, but also like Cobasanta and a few um open air spots as well.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

But no, because I think Major League isn't starting yet. Coffee, I don't like going to high, just GA is it's just not a great experience, honestly. I've said this before. Um But it's interesting. Obviously, I'm gonna play at high in September with Francis, so that's gonna be that's gonna be good. So I'll be back in Abifa in September. Um But yeah, bro, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know. I guess it's just for me again to to close this conversation and this topic, it's just crazy how things quickly change. I mean, you and I obviously um have benefited from Afrohouse with our pages and what we do and now starting a label.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

And now we're also like feeling like something's being pulled under us, right? It's like ah shit. Yeah, we need to do it and kind of think.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, exactly. It I mean, I think listen, we're we're like a biased uh, you know, when you're too close to something, that's how you kind of feel because you're affected every day by the the noise and the numbers on the screen and you know all that kind of stuff, but I was even thinking, mate.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

I was even thinking, right? I was like, is Bport Afro House now, is it as valuable? Does it carry the same weight as it did six months ago? I don't think so, bro. So like now, if I get a top top 50, top 20, I'm like, damn, I want to be top 20 in house, I want to be top 20 melodic house. Because that's because when you look at the top overall, top 100, those are the tracks that are in there. You know, if you're Afro House top 10, you're not in the top 100 overall, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah, I would love to actually take a look at those numbers is be like, okay, you know, relatively six months a year, a year and a half ago, you know, to make a top 10 Afro House track, how many sales did you need? I bet it's it's tapered off quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Bro, I promise you, that's that's without a doubt. Jamaican has been there since November. Yeah. What six months? Number one? Seven months?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

You never know. He Hugh might be doing some bot farming, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Hugo, give us give us the give us the secret, man. How do you stay number one for seven months on B port? But again, right? He's number one on Afrohouse, but overall, I think he's like 11 or 12, which is fine. I think that's that's that's that's fair. But if you're one you know, number one in house, if you're number one in Melodic, if you're number one in, I don't know, the one that's that's you know, then you're actually top five, top three. It's different, bro. It's different, it's a different game.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

I mean, that this is a good segue into the kind of the next thing I wanted to talk about. Um is uh not necessarily related to house music, but you know, what's been going on this week in music is Drake's release. And his, you know, a large portion of you know the Kendrick Lamar beef was like Kendrick Lamar's numbers are inflated on on Spotify, and he was suing Spotify, suing Universal for inflating the music. So I'm not saying Huguel is bot farming, but you know, hypothetically, how difficult would it be to, you know, if Afro House numbers have tapered off quite a bit, right? Like if you spend, let's say, 10 grand, 20 grand, 30 grand, which he has, just recycling accounts, buying the song, recycling accounts, buying the song, could you get your number to number, could you get your track to number one? I bet you could, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Tomato tomato, though. Tomato tomato. Like, what's the difference between buying a number one? But also you have to keep in mind bot farming and and and uh fake streaming, they're cracking down on that. Of course, the the bigger artist you are, and the more you're rubbing shoulders and elbows with with with the big uh streaming platforms, the more say you have, and I'm sure you know I don't want to get in that conversation, but you've got a lot more leverage in conversation, like in control.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

I mean what's the difference between doing that and and and I don't know, you're paying doing marketing.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

It's a good paying a bunch of influences.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, if you're paying a bunch of influences, if you're I don't know, setting up different accounts and and every day you're just like the money is gonna go somewhere anyway, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

So it's like it's just I don't know, man. It's it's like what is the ROI on on spending on stream farming or you know, beatport downloads versus you know organically marketing in a traditional way. I mean, I'm sure there's there's a logic to it. It's like, you know, with the the modern society we're living.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

It's a lot safer to to to stream farm. It's that's a lot safer because you it it's like buying fake following. Guaranteed. Yeah, yeah, guaranteed. When you do campaigns, yeah, when you're doing campaigns with big uh big influences.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yeah, you don't know, right? It's like numbers on a screen. That's the economy. So it's like, oh, you know, I I just found a new artist, okay. I got on a Spotify, how many monthly listers does he have? And I'm like, oh shit, okay. Like he or she's got like this many, okay. They're they're small, they're big, they're this. You judge immediately based on whatever you see there. But you know, there are we know I'm not gonna name those guys who had, you know, like a million followers on Instagram, and you know, we called BS from the day one because we knew that's all cap. Um where is he where is he now?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

That's all cap. That's all cap. But also, I mean, I was looking at the Drake um streams. I think I mean every single track is at least on like three million, every single track, like every single one on either album, not even just Iceman.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Um, Maid of Honor, Abibti, every single track is on at least two or three million, maybe even five. Like it's insane, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

They're saying like he got he got 200 million streams in the opening weekend.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah. How much money is that? Let's do the math. If if so that's five grand is a million.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

So 200, I'll do the math right now. 200 times 5k, right? That is how many zeros? That's a million dollars in streaming revenue. Yeah. One one one sec, how many zeros? One, two, three, four, five, six zeros, and a one. Yeah. A million bucks. Just I mean, that's just I mean, that's also just looking at Spotify numbers, right? All it's all about Spotify, but like, you know, there's Apple Music, Amazon, Deezer, you know, all those YouTube music is getting a lot bigger now, apparently, as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Um I mean, the people the people don't know, but Wesley's like the biggest Drake fan. I mean, being from Toronto, dude, you know, it's it's actually boring, bro. It's boring, it's boring, man. It's boring.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Dude, it's not because okay, you gotta understand, like, Toronto is a relatively small city, right? We got the Raptors, we got Drake, we got Blue Jays, Blue Jays. I'm not a baseball guy, but we got the Blue Jays, and I guess Maple Leaves if you're a hockey guy too. So those are like without when those guys are doing something cool, right? The city kind of comes alive. There's an energy, people are getting involved, it's exciting, you know, things kind of shift. So his album rollout was, you know, Toronto specific. He did the eye sculpture in downtown Toronto release date. Did you see that? Then the night of I didn't go for it, but um, I don't have time. But um on the Thursday night this past week, he was you know, he did like a 15-minute firework display. You know, he's been rolling around Toronto, like spot popping up all over the place, and it creates a buzz in the city. But I moved to Toronto for Drake. That's the fucking reason I'm here, guys. Running through the six with my woes. You know, that was the that was the banger at the time, you know. When I was finishing school, I was like, I'm gonna go run through the six with my woes.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Guys, guys, does that even make any sense? Does that even make any sense?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

It's almost like you were in a long distance relationship and you were like, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm joking, but it also was I mean, it was part of the reason. The only reason I found out about Toronto, I mean, I came here as an immigrant, get the passport, all that kind of stuff. I mean, that's the boring answer, but um, I chose Toronto because Drake put Toronto on the map, and that's just that's just facts, bro.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

That is Kendrick. That's insane. Team Drake, bro. Wow, wow Kendrick, Kendrick is ass. I think I think Wesley uh yeah, me too. We gotta talk, bro. We gotta talk. But I was gonna say Friday morning, I was up quite early.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

So I was on TikTok just Doom scrolling, and bro, the amount of live streams from Toronto just block parties and people just um going crazy for the release.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah. I mean, it's it's a bit of a cult here. I mean, I'm I'm I'm joking, but I'm also serious in the sense that like the people of Toronto are diehard, you know, for for Drake. And um because he's done a lot for the city, not just music-wise and and pop culture and stuff like that. Like, he contributes a lot to the city, gives back, you know, all these kinds of things. So he's uh he's a loved character just generally out here.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

All right, quickly, man. Let's move on from Toronto, bro. But yeah, what's the best thing about Toronto for people that are listening that have never been? What's the best thing about Toronto? I mean, I loved it when I was there. So good. But for you, what's the best thing?

SPEAKER_02 32:52

I think the best thing about Toronto is the summertime. It's because we live in this, you know, nine months of really shit cold, dark, and then summertime, you know, every the city erupts, everyone's out and about, the vibes are high, um, patio season, lots of parties, kind of stuff like that. So I think that's the best part of the city, is is just the summertime vibes here are are unmatched.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Summertime. All right. I'm booking, I'm booking.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

I'm coming. I'm coming.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

There you go. Right. Let's gears. Enough about Jersey, yeah. Let's switch gears. Uh lots of back and forth in the AI versus real artists conversation, right? This is never ending, this is gonna keep going, it's it's it's never gonna die, right? And it's only just begun, I feel like since Suno became popular, right? So there was a guy on social media, his name is Zach Talander, right? So he's been going back and forth with Diplo about real artists versus AI. Uh, Diplo did an interview not too long ago talking about how people don't care how music is made these days, all the all they care about is that it sounds good when it comes to the final product. If he can make it the cheapest, the quickest, that's what matters now, right? So, real artists, of course, right now, they're not in the best position to thrive, but he's just like tough shit, like it's just how it is. So you you better adapt. What's your what's your view on that? What's your view?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

There there's there's two sides to it. I mean, the first as I understand the the negativity and the hatred because it is an art form, right? And you're taking away from the creative process and opportunity for collaboration and learning. Um, but I also think there's a chip on people's shoulder, which I understand completely is you know, you've spent years and years and years, you know, mastering production and engineering, and you know, you've spent, you know, probably thousands of dollars on gear and sample packs and all these kinds of things. And, you know, some kid comes in and is like, okay, I can just, you know, prompt AI and I can do exactly what you're doing. And it took me 15 minutes and like a $20 a month subscription. So I I think I think it's a difficult conversation to have, but I think a lot of why people are upset is that there's an investment and there's an investment in learning. I mean, I'm learning production now, you know, I'm I've I've learned, but there's such a long way for me to go to get to a level and understanding of you know how to fully maximize the use of Ableton. There's still so much stuff I don't know. So much. So it's it's tough, man. It's tough.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Looking at Ableton, all of these plugins and all of these, not even sorry, not plugins, but DAWs, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

All of these doors, they're all gonna implement AI. Right? What's stopping Ableton from implementing a Suno-like tool?

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't you at this point? It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

That's a that's a really good question, actually, because they probably will, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Of course they will. Like I think there's so many I f I feel like the it's almost like you could argue that Suno and Ableton now are competitors, right? Because as a business, you never want people to not be on your platform. If they need to go somewhere else, spend money somewhere else, spend more time somewhere else, then you're losing. Over time, you're gonna lose that battle, right? Because your product doesn't provide everything that they need.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

So I've got a question for you, kind of maybe switching things a little bit. So you're you're working on a track, right? And you have a specific idea for how you want your vocal to sound. But you've you know you've tried a few artists, you spent a little bit on their studio time, and and but it didn't work out for you. And then you go to Suno, you prompt it, and it gives you exactly what you want. Like, what are what are you gonna do, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

No, listen, again, I I understand both sides, but people also have to understand be realistic about efficiency and how people use their time and convenience. Technology is convenience. That's that's that's why we love it, that's why it works, that's why it's made people rich because it's convenience, it saves time. Um but we're also turning into this subscription-based thing. Uh, when it comes to music production, you know, you're either a fell producer, you're either Ableton, you're either Logic, Pro Tools, whatever, but you're not you're not all four. Obviously, you can switch over time, but usually you use one, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

But now with these with these AI tools, you can be on Suno, you can be on on these other ones. There's one called uh, I mean, I keep getting emails from them. I think it's called Mureca. There's there's one called like there's like a vocal, you can sing whatever instrument you want. Like there's so many different ones.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

And it's like those are all competing with each other, but people are still gonna pay for all of those, right? But what's that's gonna cause is just push out the vocalists, push out the real instruments, the plugins, all of that, right? It's it's it's it's inevitable, I think. It's inevitable. Like it's it's it's happening.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

But do you okay, so do you think that the future of you know music creation is part of your skill set going forward is gonna be how to maximize the use of AI.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Part of it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

If you don't learn it, are you at a competitive disadvantage?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Part of it for sure. And I'll tell you right now, when I test these platforms, even go on their pages on social media. All of the big artists that we talk about on this podcast, they're following. They're liking the videos, they they are engaging with these pages, right? So it's it's just part of it. Again, it's it might not sit right with a lot of people, but I think it's it's it's also good to find a happy medium. Sometimes I get a track and I can instantly tell that the vocal is AI, it doesn't have the soul. It I've heard the same voice or the same tone somewhere else, right? And as a producer, as someone that should be taken seriously, you have to also have that ear to identify that and say, okay, this is too AI, this doesn't sound good, it doesn't have any soul, there's no story in this track. And even with Wavy, I get so many AI vocals, so many AI assisted tracks, and you can tell. And usually my feedback in there is like, yeah, it's fine, it's AI, but just make sure that you're telling a story, make sure that you still have unpredictability, it's a huge thing in music. Yeah, surprise, it's a huge thing in music, right? If if a if a track starts the same way as it feels in the middle, the same way as it feels in in the build-up, that's just computer, that's just you know, there's no soul in there, there's no thought behind the journey. And I don't think AI is good is good at making that yet, right? So you still need humans to provide that feeling. Um so yeah, even though you might find the vocal, the feeling you still have to create it.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

I think I think, yeah, I I totally agree with you. It's it's it seems that you know what you're getting on on Wavy and you know some of the demos we get to is like too much of the the actual track is is not created by humans. It's like the first version.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

It's almost like you put a prompt in, you get that first version back, and they use that first version. It's like, no, that's not the point. Get that first version, rework it, and make it yours.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

I think I think AI is is useful for like on a much more granular thing, right? So I I have an idea for like a shaker that, and I've heard it in this track, right? I don't have it in my sample pack, I don't really know how to create it, you know. Right. Then would would you be okay, like, okay, I give you Suno a reference or another tool and say, like, make me a shaker like that, and then you you have like a small sample that you then should be used, right? Because when you have a specific thing that you're looking for and you don't have it, but now you can prompt AI to make it for you without you know spending hours before AI came out.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Who was listening to music and saying, Oh, that kick, who made that kick? No one, oh, who made that shaker, who made that not conga, who made no, no one, no one, no one was like calling out kind of elements and things like that. It it it it happens with vocals and bigger elements of tracks. Yeah, so I think you know, when it comes to to to to more foundational elements, I think it's it's do what you want, right? Um but yeah, man, I also think that and this is even bigger than music, things are becoming so easy now. I feel like in a few years we might just what's the point in in just doing anything?

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Yeah. Right? So it's just like, what? That's like so that there's there's a whole theory that w humans are doomed and you know, AI is taking over the world, so enjoy it while it lasts, basically. There's a lot of people out there who have this like mentality. Some people I work with in in my day job are true believers that it doesn't matter anyway, because you know, we're we're we're screwed, basically.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I mean, I I honestly think this is turning into a conspiracy or just just dark and yeah, um yeah, but I honestly think we're probably What one two generations away from like what are we like?

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

How do you just do anything without any technology? I mean, I use Claude now for everything. When I'm eating, when I'm tracking my calories, if I've got like. And obviously, there's gonna be an advancement from that at some point. I don't know. Like, it's just crazy where we are now.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Yeah, like uh, you know, we could have we could start a whole new podcast just about Claude ChatGBT co-pilot. I mean, you know, I'm also deeply involved in in that world. But it's the same, it's the same with music, right? I think music, music is evolving. You know, what's the point in going to school anymore and learning music theory or you know, spending like years and years mastering an instrument if you can just, you know, probably if you give yourself a day, learn how to prompt a sudo or a similar tool, you know, that's one day versus like, you know, lots of money, lots of time spent in in mastering a craft. You don't need to.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

You also have to think the it was a story last week. The the number one Afrobeat song was AI made. Really? The number one Afrobeat song is AI made in the charts, and it's called Let Me Be. I'm sure you've heard it on social media.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Everybody's using that for reels, right? That's AI, bro.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

I didn't know that. I mean, I know the song. It's everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

It's everywhere, it's everywhere. That's an AI song. That's crazy. So think about. I mean, let's let's actually do the math, right? Again, this is just Spotify. Let me be. How many streams? Let me be. Let me be, let me be. Is it mad, bro? Wow. I'm sure. 35 million. 35 million streams.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Okay, so 35 times we said like approximately 5k for uh per million.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

And then we also uh you also have to think how many reels? There's like millions of reels out there, and you know, you're getting royalty for each of those reels too, right? So that's that's extra money. Reels and TikToks.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah, so on, I mean, just on the just on the uh Spotify side, so that's 35 times five grand is 175k. That song is grossed, which is a lot. That's a lot of money, man. Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Um listen, if you're if you made that song in 20 minutes, even less, just by prompting, came up with some lyrics with Chat GPT, said, Okay, I want a song that sounds like I mean, I would say the vocalist, who? Who does the vocalist on Let Me Be sound like? Just you just said, I don't know. Give me a seasoned Afro-B vocalist style, these are the lyrics, boom.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

You know what? You know what I wonder is that I don't know if they could do it, but if they could, like everything that Suno created, they were entitled to a royalty percentage. They would be in the future the most successful, one of the most successful businesses in the music industry, right? If they could do that, I wonder if they're looking at that.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Well, the thing is, I don't think they own, like, sorry, they let me rephrase that. I think as an artist, and you need to be very careful when you're signing signing up to Suno and making songs on Suno.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Because legally, I don't think you fully own the uh what's the what's the what's the word? You know this better than me. The creative side of the track, which we call what, in music terms, the publishing. Composition. The composition. Yeah. You don't fully own the composition side of it because you know, um that's interesting. Um we can fact check that, but that's definitely um a conversation. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Because that's that's really their bag. So if they start going after, like, okay, if if Let Me Be was made on Suno, you know, they could reach out to the label and say, hey, actually, when your artists sign up contractually, we own X, Y, and Z, you owe us royalties because you're exploring something that's ours.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Exactly, exactly. I think to to to highlight another side of this conversation. If you're making songs in Suno, what you need to work on is your performance and performing, right? Yeah, because real artists, most real artists, because they felt it, they've really worked out the music and they've created it themselves, naturally they're gonna know how to perform it and how to breathe and live it and how to sell it.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

If you're making it on Suna and you become big, how does that translate into a live performance? How does that translate into you performing in front of people? That's that's the gap as well, and that's that's something that we need to highlight because yeah, it's one thing to get rich of off of a Suna track, and that's purely luck, unless you know you know what you're doing and you know how to market, you know how to invest, etc. etc. But yeah, performing performing is is totally different, man. It's different, yeah. Even as a DJ, and you know, you can argue DJing is easy, but even as a DJ, that's tough.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah, I mean AI AI DJing, it's coming, it's here already. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Listen, today I was just open YouTube, right? And it's crazy how where we are right now with AI videos. Yeah. So it's this this AI female influence, so obviously she's good looking, whatever. And it's like she traveled back in time into like 1500 London. Okay, so she's walking around, but she's still um, I guess a modern influencer, right? So she's still wearing like modern clothes, but she's walking around in in 1500 London with her phone and things like that, and millions of views. People are watching it, people are like, Oh, I never knew I could like videos like this. This is crazy. And it's just like, what the fuck's going on, man?

SPEAKER_02 50:46

It's insane. Dude, speaking, I mean, uh when you're doom scrolling, there's all kinds of funny things that also come up, man. Like, you know, fruits that are cheating on their husbands, and yeah, I don't know if you've ever seen those videos. Like, it's wild, man. They're so entertaining, but it's it's like it's crazy, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:04

No, listen, it's all entertainment, I understand it, but I mean with AI again, and it it it it impacts every area of business or most area of businesses, it's just like industries, film. Yeah. What's next, man? What's next? I mean, what's what's do you feel a type of way when it's like if we got a demo that was sick and it's 100% AI?

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yeah, I mean there's you can spit that into two kind of like opinions. I mean, as a as a music fan, as a producer myself, as a DJ, you know, like I'm not a huge fan of things being 100% made by AI. But then, you know, as a label owner, you know that this song is, you know, more chances it's not going to be profitable for the business, for the artist, kind of things like that. But if I had to choose one or the other, I would say I would be against signing that record for sure. It'd be against. I'd be against. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Man. It's always about who's sending the track as well. Not okay, let me not say always, but that is significant.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

True. If it's like someone that's just shooting their shot trying to be lucky, they made a track, they got lucky, and it sounds good, and they're just sending the track with with nothing, no plan, then that's a hardest sell. But if some if it's someone that has got a plan, no, you know, in terms of marketing the track and they know how to hold the conversation in terms of a rollout, yeah, then I might be interested.

unknown 53:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

I might be interested. Yeah, I think I think most producers now use AI, bro. I think I think most producers use it.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

It's case by case. I mean, I get that, but it's it's like, do you you gotta like I think it that's one of these things now where you have to roll with the decision, roll with the the way the industry is changing, because I think if you try to fight it, you're just gonna lose.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

So I mean, remember when I did the interview with Cairo and people went crazy when I was like, oh, who's I was like, who's the vocalist here? And he's like, AI. Yeah. And then in the comments, everyone was going nuts. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

So I mean, that's the same thing that Diplo was saying. I mean, he got his his dream vocal, but I mean, Afrotech, Afrotech world is is such an interesting space, man. Like, I wonder, I wonder what you know, portion of the Afrotech heavyweights, like you know, your your Vancos, your your night freaks, your your Deserays, Tembas, like how much of them are using AI now and like to what percent, like what portion of the track are they AIing? Like the Shaker, the Conga, the vocal, or are they just kind of doing some sneaky stuff? Like I I doubt that, but you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 54:29

I mean, if I was producing music consistently, and you know, you know, like the music production process, it's a lot of okay, let me find inspiration, let me find the sound, let me go on the internet. Inevitably, bro, you're gonna follow follow on soon, or you're gonna go on on these AI tools and and experiment. That's inevitable, I think, especially um if you're kind of direct laptop producer. I don't think there's a way around it, honestly. I don't think there's a way around it, bro. Let's let's end the podcast. Go on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

I was gonna say we should we should have a whole podcast segment about like production process because I have so many things to say, but I know we're running out of time there.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Yeah, um, I was gonna say let's end the podcast dream lineup, right? Let's do it, let's do Afrotech edition dream lineup, right? The budget is 250k, right? So not 750k because people didn't like that last time we we we used that number. Okay, okay 250k, it's your budget. This is the price category, right? So you got coffee at 100k, yeah, Shimza Francis Desiree at 75k. Okay, Cabza, the B3B guys, Dalala, Temba at 50k, Vanco Zakes, Mo Black, Night Freak at 25k, and finally Kasango, Kitty, Bon Sharpa, A Drums, Jamie, Manu, and Son of Musician at 10k. Your budget is 250k. What's your dream lineup?

SPEAKER_03 56:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

Okay, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go top, top to bottom. Alright, so I'm gonna go headliner, then slots before before him. Um gonna put coffee at the top. I have to. He's like one of my all-time favorite DJs. Always have, always really be. So you got 150k left? I got 150k left. I'm gonna go with Desiree second, actually. I'm a big, I'm a big Desiree fan. Um, I've seen her play a couple times. She is she is nice with it. So you got 75k left, okay? I got 75k left. I'm gonna go with. I'm gonna go with B3B.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

B3B.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

50k, so I've got 25 left.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

You got 25 left now, mate.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

And then I'm gonna oh I'm gonna go kitty and bun. There you go. Kitty and bun. 10k. So I have five 5k left over.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

See, you keep putting that in your pocket. Putting that in the pocket. Right. 250. I think that's a good budget. I think that's a good budget for for a decent, decent sized festival. Man, alright, I'm doing Yeah, what do you got? What do you got? Damn. Right. Let's start. Let's start at the 10K, 10k number, right? Okay. You know I love Kitty. She gotta be in there. Kitty gotta be in there. So she's in there. So that's 10. I'm at 240, right? Right, cool. I'm gonna go with. I'll go with Vanko.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Okay. Well, it's 35k spent.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

I'm going with Vanko. Yeah, listen. The sound, the sound I'm going for, it's it's it's it's very bassy. Kitty brings the energy Vanko the same way, so we're keeping the energy going. Ooh. I love Timber, but I think I gotta go. I'll go B3B, man. I'll follow. Okay. I think it's like it's it's you got three and one, right? It's almost like cheating.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. That's the problem. Okay, so that's three and one, yeah. That's 85k spent. You got what we got left? 200. No, you got a hundred and one sec, bro. Two five. You got you got 165 left.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Oh man. So I can only pick one, eh?

SPEAKER_02 59:20

Yeah. So now you're you're your next two slots, you're you're like 10k short, you know.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Yeah, so I'll go I'll go coffee, and then I might come back.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

And do yeah, because if I get coffee, then I've got more money left, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:41

You got 65 left if you do coffee.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Right. So if I do coffee, coffee timber B2B.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Okay, yo, that's nice.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

That is nice, bro. That's nice. Coffee timber B2B, and you know, I'm keeping the rest, bro.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

That's that's just all right. 15k save. Well done, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Yeah, money, money to throw in the air. The rest exists.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

We need to see that coffee timber B2B, actually. Those guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

That's that's that's a that's a serious throwback there. Yeah, exactly. That was episode 20. Strong episode. Don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, and yeah, we're back next Tuesday. Where's the ending else?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

Nah, thanks for the love, guys. Again, let us know who you want as a guest. So we we're doing those reach outs now, lining it up. So if there's anyone you want to hear from, let us know.