Share a Cup with Me
Share a Cup with Me is a cozy, story-driven podcast where, once a month, guests share their favorite drink and the stories that matter to them. Through meaningful, reflective, and light-hearted conversations, each episode creates a warm, inclusive space for connection, creativity, and cultural insight. Hosted by Annie Sands.
Transcripts:Word-for-word transcripts are archived here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19Viv52vqm_S9zcoyc6Xgi1NgpTzKUCGow1dxJMjYHaY/edit?usp=sharing.
This document is updated as episodes are released and transcripts are completed.
Share a Cup with Me
Counterbalancing Hate – A Convo w. Devin
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This episode, Devin and I get real. We talk about hate, discrimination, and everything that comes along with it — implicit bias, accountability, advocacy, and the discomfort that comes with challenging harmful beliefs and systems both internally and externally.
We both discuss mistakes we’ve made and how we’ve learned to deal with them. We also talk about the other side of accountability: accepting whatever response someone gives you after you take responsibility for your actions.
This conversation comes from a very personal place. Neither of us are experts, but we do encourage listeners to continue learning, take accountability, and also take care of themselves.
Content warning: This episode discusses discrimination, hate, bias, harassment, trauma, and mental health. If you have experienced discrimination in any form, please listen with care and take breaks if needed.
Resources, articles, and materials discussed in this episode are available in the transcript section for anyone wanting to continue learning.
That's it for this cup. Until next time— keep connecting! You can follow the podcast @shareacupwithme and Share a Cup with Me on Facebook!
Hello everyone, welcome back to Share a Cup with Me. I am back. Today we have Devin. Um, before we get started, uh this is gonna be a heavy heavy hitter. So this is gonna be your trigger warning. We're going to be talking about hate and discrimination. So please use discretion, take breaks. Um if you have dealt with any discrimination, this might be triggering for you. So please take care of yourself before anything else.
SPEAKER_03Sounds good, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was Devin.
SPEAKER_03I mean, yeah, we always want to take care of ourselves, be really mindful, um, especially with like content that we are potentially gonna broach today.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I agreed. So to start off, we're gonna start off with a light note. Um as always, Devin, even though you cannot drink it in the Sequorian studio, what would you be drinking if you could actually share a cup with me?
SPEAKER_03So, are you familiar with like honey teas? Like, specifically, I'm thinking of like Korean honey teas. I've heard about them, but I've been meaning to try them, but I have not. Oh my gosh, they're so delicious. So, my my go-to. So, normally my drink is like water and coffee. I think I'm like most people where that is like our lifeblood, is water and some kind of coffee. Uh Mogwa honey tea is like quince, which is like a cross between like apple and pear, and there's no caffeine in it. Sounds good already. It's delicious, and it is also like my go-to drink when I'm not feeling good, whether that's like physical illness or like mentally just not having the day I want. So it's a big pick-me-up, and I highly recommend it.
SPEAKER_00That sounds good. That sounds right up my alley because when I'm normally sick, I normally drink ginger and honey.
SPEAKER_03They do have ginger honey teas as well. I'm just specifically talking about the mogul one, but there's a lot of different ones.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'll have to get you a jar. I think you'd like it. Ooh, that'd be great. Um, so normally the guests choose our topic. Devin was very courteous and allowed me to approach this subject with her because I know how she feels about it. This is also Mental Health Awareness Day, which I want to bring uh a microphone on. Microphones, micro, something I wanna I wanna look more closely at. And Devin, I'm I hope this is okay saying also study counseling like I did. So we this is both very close to our heart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we've had many heated discussions, not at each other with each other, just like he did general, very impassioned conversations.
SPEAKER_00But specifically because of what's going on, I want to address it dealing with hate and discrimination because there's so much hate in the world right now, unfortunately, specifically in the US, yeah, and there's so much demiscrition, and we work with many different students of many different standings. I don't know what a better way to say that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, no, it doesn't like different identities, like yeah, we work with a diverse uh student population. Um, and also I think it's important to mention that anything that Annie and I talk about from our own, because I know like this is all about like our own perspectives and things like that. Yes, yes, this is a audio-based um media. Just know we are both very white, so we are gonna be talking at it from like our perspectives, right? And like maybe a call-in for some of our other white folks out there.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we are not talking for any groups, they can they are very great at taking care of their own people. The problem is our race, the white race, is not great at listening. No, and so we are not speaking for them. This is one person to a two white people, two other the other white people is let's do better. Yeah. So to get into that, yeah. Um any initial thoughts when I brought up this topic with you?
SPEAKER_03Oh man. Uh yeah, I think some of my initial thoughts were, yeah, this is like a really important conversation to have, and also I think like an like a conversation that a lot of white people, and I'm gonna call myself out too, like myself included, definitely feel uncomfortable around, particularly when it comes to calling out or calling in like our people, right? Like our family members, our friends. Um, and then also, you know, it takes a good amount of self-reflection to also go, like, okay, well, what has my experience been like, and so on and so forth, right? A lot of like internal work, yeah, that a lot of people are have a lot of like trepidation or sometimes anger around doing. So I was like, oh, this will be interesting. I don't know what kind of conversation we'll have, but I hope it's a productive one, and that you know, if anyone who listens to this feels inclined to maybe do some of that self-work, then I think this would have been like a well-worth endeavor, you know.
SPEAKER_00I'm also gonna challenge anyone, like, because we're talking about hate and discrimination broadly, so we are probably gonna touch on areas that we've both kind of dealt with, like sexism, cat calling, sure. Uh I like I talked about with my earlier session with Michael, I have an invisible disability, so like I've dealt with ableism specifically, ironically, and academia where I now work and make my living out of. So it's wow, what I was going with. If you feel uncomfortable with anything that we said, one, I'm gonna challenge you to sit with your discomfort because that's the only way you can get through it. And two, just know that like either we're talking about it with our own discomfort or we're talking about it after we dealt with our discomfort.
SPEAKER_03Would you say that would be valid on your and I think um you know Annie and I have had these conversations previously. Like, I was actually even just saying earlier today how a lot of individuals don't have distress tolerance. It's like this clinical term we have, right? About like your your window of just like tolerance, like what can you tolerate, what can you not? And a lot of individuals may feel like, oh, I feel distressed, even if it's minor, and they feel the need to like avoid or shut it down. And so I think it's important to kind of build that distress tolerance and also to like better learn about yourself and better engage, you do have to learn to sit with that discomfort. So, no, I completely agree with that. So, like discomfort doesn't always mean unsafe, discomfort doesn't always mean like intolerable. So if something arises, like absolutely name it, call it out, sit with it, note where it is in your body, and you'll be okay. But if anyone feels really impassioned and they're like, Well, we just need to like let Annie know, then I guess you can send out information.
SPEAKER_00I will, so I'll be quoting certain articles. One that I did send to Devon before this um is the impacts of hate, crime, discrimination on mental health. This is not a US article, this is a UK article from the stophateuk.org. I will post anything if we mention any specific articles, any specific videos, I'll do my best to try to find it, or pest your debit until I say give it to send things, to send things to me.
SPEAKER_03Um you know, when your professors in college are like cite your work, it's like alright, are we still doing that?
SPEAKER_00So mainly so you can see our sources and also because we're not going in depth in these articles, that would be like five hours. Oh yeah. Um and Devin probably doesn't want to stay here with me for five hours. So I don't know, you give me some tea. Sorry, no drink. Maybe one day. So discrimination versus belonging is the first kind of topic that this article touches on. And it says discrimination and belonging are two concepts that are often talked about in regards to mental health. Discrimination is referred to as neglect treatment of an individual group due to their identity, and it's normally always based in discomfort or hate. It's my experience of when someone is projecting discrimination onto someone. Again, we're talking in generalized terms, so please don't come at me with like that's not true, one exception. Um can be linked to trauma, depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, a significant impact of quality of life in general. Um what we've heard from friends that are not white, um, of different, all sorts of different identities, we can say that like so far what from what we've heard this is true. Um we're not going to give out names.
SPEAKER_03So very private. But I mean, also not even just like personal conversations that we have. I mean, I think there's a lot of really well-documented research and also individuals who have felt brave enough to share their own experiences out there that like we can see those themes across the board, right? Yeah for people for people who have experienced discrimination.
SPEAKER_00And I'm just gonna quote one more thing and then I'm gonna turn off the quote machine. Um and something that we need to address, and this is from the Southern Poverty Law Center, and I will also link this um article or book, and it's about hate in schools, and uh it addresses that discrimination and hate crimes are starting very, very early. It says that what is it? 21% of the people that reported hate crimes started in elementary school. 21%. That's a huge percent, I would feel like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, that's close to a quarter, so you know, that's like one in every four kids experiencing that. That's pretty that's quite a lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I don't know. I didn't have a great time in elementary school because of my learning disability, so like I would hate to not I can even imagine, but I would definitely hate for anyone to go through it because of like we can't control how we look, how we believe, how we like what we can't control how we believe. But like we fall in love with who we identify as, like what ethnicity or race in quotation marks. Um, because race is also a discriminatory tool. Um but to be judged and mocked and hated for something that you have absolutely no control over, it's no wonder children are struggling to form connections because for them I'm guessing connections right now seems and pred presents as danger.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I could see that, especially like in elementary school, right? Like your main social connections are gonna be at school, right? Like that's where we start kind of learning and making some of our like first friends, and so if you're experiencing like discrimination and hate at that young age, like I imagine that would be very difficult to want to reach out to someone and connect it, like would it feel very safe, right? Yeah, and also like I just have to be honest with like what came up for me when you were talking about like the statistic and things. Like, I was thinking back to my like elementary school days, and I I mean I'm age myself, I am a millennial, but you know, I think about a lot of the like jokes that were kind of casually thrown around in those spaces, and even though like you know, there might not have been any like ill intent because kids didn't know what they were saying, they were yeah, probably repeating the things that were normalized for them, things they were hearing at home, but not like nobody really corrected like course corrected these kids when things would come up. Um, I'm thinking a lot about like Michael Jackson jokes were very like oh yeah timely when I was in elementary school.
SPEAKER_00Um that article was from 2019, so I'm sure it's so like possibly worse.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, bulka, I mean like things just get so normalized, yeah, right. And kids I have this this this is purely anecdotal, so I don't want this to be like cited anywhere, but this is kind of like a curiosity that I have because there's been a lot of conversations around how you know, with our current political climate, that it has emboldened a lot of people to say the quiet part out loud, right? I'm sure it does, yeah. And because you know, this is becoming normalized, almost even accepted. Whereas like kids don't have discernment between like what is the quiet part and what's not the quiet part. You know what I'm saying? So like I think back to like whenever I was in elementary school and I was like, no, those were the kids saying the quiet part out loud. Things they saw at home, things that they learned that you know, if the adults were out in public, they probably wouldn't have let that be known. But like at home where it's you know behind closed doors and kind of things. And now we're into a place where there's more emboldening of people to say the quiet part out loud. So I'm wondering, like, do kids like our kids these days even learning, like, oh no, that's just like an at-home conversation. Not to try to be like secretive about, but that's true. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate.
SPEAKER_00I feel like every family of us have like the stays within our family. Like we obviously know that we don't believe this, but like we're making jokes. But I wanna kind of like when you said like because of our political climate, more things that wouldn't be said are being said. It brought me to a video of Meryl Streep talking at an award ceremony where she won the award, and this was like back in I think his first term that she was addressing, and I will also put the link in that. Um, but she was addressing how when the the highest person of a country is doing discriminatory acts, yeah, it will filter down because we follow a child will follow a parent's example, a parent will follow their friend's example or society's example. Society follows either the famous people's example or the people said power example. And so we can't see right now, so it's not a huge jump to like say yes, I'm pretty sure we are in worse state as a country of how we treat differences because of how our leader treats differences. And it goes with like not our Pacific leader generally right now, but like every every leader of every country, but like every leader of like every country and every time. Like we follow the most popular or the most powerful people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I'm thinking of like you know, people in authority. Um you know, I I like this is a completely different topic, so we don't have to get too deep into it, but like people talking about like we have like a literacy crisis kind of thing out there where like people don't know how to check facts or do due diligence and things like that. But it is because if someone sits in like a power of authority, right? Like to your point, like a kid will follow the parent because the parent is that authority figure at that point. And I think we are seeing that in our current political climate where you know our current president in power can make like a completely off-the-wall statement with like zero basis, in fact, and it is treated like written in stone correct, and then it's also then used as this like justification for continuing these like problematic statements and beliefs, right? Which then lead to the discriminatory behavior, and yeah, so I see what you're saying, right? Because there's also like assumptions that are made around people in power, like like think about like when you were a kid, you know. Did you like when did you really come to maybe start questioning authority, questioning parents, teachers?
SPEAKER_00I would say late middle school, early high school, about the time when you're starting to create friends of like differences, you have more leeway on like how late you stay out, so there's less adults around. Um so I would say about then, which is also normally when we choose our own tastes, our own styles. Yeah, it's about that same age developmentally wise.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I mean, that's when your logic part of your brain is really starting to form, and that doesn't really solidify to like later years, like late 20s, early 30s, but that's when you're starting to kind of come back with like I don't just emotionally reason I feel this way, therefore it is, but now we also have these like logic pieces to it. It's like okay, well, I was taught to believe that, but why, right? Like, I have to start seeking out some of those answers. But we learn from such a young age that authority people have power, and also authority are usually right, that I think sometimes in like a lower level we carry that belief with us into adulthood. If you haven't had that opportunity to kind of challenge, like, okay, well, why do I believe some of these things? And that's why I think like people in authority, people in power, not just because they say something and can change laws, but also because even without laws changing, people have this like intrinsic belief of like well they said it, therefore it must be true. Yeah, like I'm thinking back to like the most ridiculous, like when Trump was saying like you know, they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, like such a ridiculous statement. But then I remember the fallout afterwards, and people were like, Yes, this is true, this must be happening, and then they use that as justification to go like cause harm within like the Haitian community.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And to use like a lurler example, is like I've been watching videos about the hunger game, and it's kind of how up until the last moment the capitals people believed like no matter like anything that President Snow said about like well district 13 is dangerous and we had to bomb them, and they're like, of course, because like that seems valid, of like just bombing an entire society, and it that kind of gets into the part that like we're comfortable talking about because like we've done it to each other a couple of times, where like well that's not necessarily true, like no one's wanting to be the odd man that's like, um, excuse me, can we like can I fact check you where'd you get that information? And because, like you said, it's uncomfortable to be the one person that's gonna be the credit the devil's advocate. But like that's exactly how societies get to like where the capital was, is no one everyone was wanting to live the comfortable life no matter who it hurt in the rest of the world or in the rest of the country. But there's a quote that's in my bathroom, and it's it's the they came for first they came for the Jews, and I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't spoke for them. And it was by a German pastor um back in the 1930s when Hitler was taking over Germany, and he said, by the time they came to me, there was no one left out to speak for me. Yeah. Just because you align with the lines of power doesn't mean they're actually gonna treat you fairly and equally.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. We like to think that would be the case, and I'm using like the we as like this general, right? Yeah, like humans have this sort of like natural uh draw to protection, however that may look or feel, but then like you know, we can sometimes have that dissonance of well, what is temporarily feeling like protection for me may also ultimately end up being harmful down the line, and that's where we have to like bring in like the top of the show, like you have to sit with this discomfort, you have to kind of question things, you have to be willing to not look away from things that are distressing, or nothing changes.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes it's you have to question the comfort because sometimes protection is technically a cage in disguise. Interesting. But there's a That came from a night like the movie God is Dead, the first one. Oh no, no, that one. Um, they're talking about faith, but it can be applied, I feel like, to everything. And it was a son talking to his mother who has dementia, and he goes, You believed all your life, and like and now look at you, and I've never done a nice thing for anyone. Why is uh hardships falling on you and not me? And she looks at him and she goes, Because sometimes Satan puts us in in a comfortable cage because it's so comfortable that we don't want to see that it's a cage until the door is shut, and then it's too late.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. That really resonates.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's always resonated with me too. Because I'm like, yeah, as people with white privilege, we do have a lot of comfort, but at what cost? Not only like if you don't get anything out of this, which I hope you get more out of this, um everything comes with a price. Everything comes with when I talk to my students about well, the pays more. My first thing could question is well why the pay why is the paymore? What is being taken away or given to you that benefit to pay raise? Because nothing normally ever comes for free.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think like I hear what you're saying, like I think it's that like value, like what kind of value do you put like into like benefits, time working, like what does this pay raise entail potentially? Like, you need to kind of have the full picture. Um, but some people get so distracted by like the dollar signs, yeah, the dollar amounts, which on a broader scale, not just talking about like you know, students looking for future careers and paychecks and things like that, but I do think that's something that we saw with this last election was um we had a lot of disenfranchised, like poorer, lower class individuals who are just like, you know, I'm seeing this economy, I'm seeing everything, you know, cost more, and so I will be willing to back this human being who is like dangling this very like hello. I have no idea what that was. But dangling kind of this like pretty like, look, if you vote for me, like I will bring groceries down day one, gas prices down, day one. Don't look at like the hateful rhetoric and the hateful policies that I have over here, just focus on like what kind of money can I put back in your pocket, right? And what we have seen is actually the polar opposite, right? Things are more expensive than ever. And I don't know if I've ever told you this, right? But like I actually my undergrad is in business, so I do have like some knowledge around like economies and things like that. And what a lot of people don't understand is typically the economy that you experience during a president's term. I mean, it's different if it's like two-term presidents, but usually the economy you're experiencing during the president's term is the economy that was left from the previous administration.
SPEAKER_00Because the work had already been done, so you're benefiting from the after effect of the work.
SPEAKER_03And very like not, I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but it's not as common that you're going to see like quick economic like downturn or upturn like overnight, right? It's things that take a long time, there are things that play out. I mean, we saw it with COVID, where like we're gonna feel the economic impacts of you know shutdowns for years to come because there's just so many like domino effects that happen, right? And so I was trying to express that to individuals back during this last election season.
SPEAKER_00He was making the paints when she said that that's what I'm thinking.
SPEAKER_03But then I was trying to express to people where I was like, you know, because they were like, Well, you know, I had more money in my pocket under Trump's first like administration. I was like, Well, yeah, because he inherited Obama's economy, and then Biden and Kamala started to like bring it back up, and yes, like because they inherited Trump's economy, and so we were we had a pretty strong economy at the start of Trump's second term, and what I try to express to a lot of people was you will see quicker impact from tariffs. That that was something that like most economists, like uh professionals, experts, that's what I was looking for, were agreeing upon. It's like those are things that you're gonna feel really, really quickly, right? And now, obviously, we're seeing it with um at the time of this recording, we're still in a war, not a war with Iran, depending on the media outlets that you listen to, and we're seeing like an upcrease with all of these things. But I'm gonna bring it back to the topic of like kind of getting tunnel visioned of not seeing the full picture, and so people, even if they may not be outwardly racist or homophobic or transphobic or sexist or xenophobic, I mean you you add all of the isms, right? And they're like, oh well, you know, that's not who I am at my core, but I'm gonna be willing to ignore some of those harmful policies because I want more money in my pocket, right? Yeah, and so I think like that is another interesting conversation between like active oppression and what I would call passive oppression. Yes, and I think I have a lot of people in my orbit because they are not actively like using slurs or actively, you know, um behaving in ways that are pretty clockable as discrimination, that they're like, ah nah, I'm good. But no one's paying attention to the microaggressions that they're doing, or the things that they're permitting, and I think that's a hard conversation to have with a lot of white people because that means that we do have to sit in the discomfort and be like, oh my gosh, what did I allow, even just like passively, right?
SPEAKER_00And sometimes, like, like because we are talking about this, so we work in the same building. We don't, yes. So we were talking about this before we started this recording. And I agree, we are as a group of white people in general, we are terrible at calling out the smaller things, and sometimes like it's like most of my family is conservative, and sometimes the best way I can protest is by walking away, and that is a valid way to protest, no matter what they say, because sometimes I don't like fighting as a white person, and like all my friends know this. Um if someone says something and like the aspect of like surrounding like a certain person or a certain group or a certain identity, I will watch the person that the fight will immediately affect because there will immediately probably be backlash, and it won't be aimed at me generally, it will be aimed at that person. So if they react, then I'll stand behind them or I'll do my best to. I'm not perfect, so I will fail sometimes.
SPEAKER_03Progress over perfection is all I'm saying. Like we can't expect to be perfect.
SPEAKER_00If they stay quiet, then I'll stay quiet because I'm not gonna pick a battle that's not my battle to pick.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, I'll even go one further though, too, right? Because, like, to your point, like if something was said that was harmful, not necessarily directly to you, but maybe it was harmful to someone else, I understand wanting to kind of like see their reaction and maybe take their lead, right? And also I would still argue that it's still not something that should be ignored, right? That's bad. That's I I would say, you know, and I because like you never know, like I've had situations where um I won't get into specifics, but like something similar with something was said that was harmful that wasn't directly impactful or harmful to me, but it was to someone that I care about, whether they were at the table or they were not at the table. If they were at the table, I may ask them, like, hey, if this ever happens in the future, what do you want me to say? What do you want me to do? Because there have definitely been times where I've done nothing, and I'm glad I had a close enough relationship with that person where they were like, actually, that felt permissive. I wish you would have said or done something. You know, and also then I have said or done something, and then it just feels like it puts that person like in the hot seat, or there's even more, right? So I think like there's not a direct formula on when or how, but I think being very mindful of it is important. Checking in with the person who may have been harmed afterwards, especially is important. But then the other thing that I would say is I always here's the deal: I never want my loved ones to think that I'm not on their side even when they're not in the room. Bell the point. So I it has also been like it's not been uncommon for me where maybe the time, the place, it just wasn't ideal, but I'll still bring it up with that person later on. Like, hey, you said this, and I'm gonna tell you why I didn't like it. Or let me tell you what I heard when you said that, or let me maybe give you like a different perspective of what that could potentially come off as.
SPEAKER_00I'm still working towards that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, it it look, let me not act like perfect. I'm absolutely not perfect, right? Like, genuinely. Like, I think I had to learn this a lot more because like I know you said your family is pretty conservative. I feel like I had a pretty like counterintuitive experience to a lot of people growing up in Oklahoma, to be honest. Um my like core nuclear family, we've always been relatively progressive. Like, I have some extended family that probably leads a little more conservative, but like my siblings, my parents, me, we've always been pretty in alignment on what we do and don't agree with, and so it's like that was never hard conversations. I was talking about extended, but heard, yep. So, but like even extended families, if someone was out of line, it wasn't just me, right? Like, I had other people in my corner. So entering into spaces where it was like, oh my gosh, I'm kind of alone in this took a long time. Like, there are absolutely conversations that I regret not speaking up in. There are absolutely moments I regret not speaking up in. Um, there are absolutely things I regret saying, yeah. That I've had to have people call me in on, and I appreciate that they were able to do that. Like, but again, you have to like I think the normal response when people get called in is like this like immediate defense, like, no, no, no, I didn't mean it, I didn't mean it. It's like, okay, well, let's have a conversation about intent versus impact, right? Because you may not have intended this outcome, but this is the impact, and it's still your responsibility, yeah, right. I I feel like that could be like my blanket statement on like a lot of things. Like, I'll even I'll even go back to like you know, people who voted because they really believed that this person was going to give them like the economic like upswing that they were looking for, may not have intended these other like harmful policies, but the impact of it is is you still put this person into office, and you need to be acknowledging that because next time an election comes around, are you going to allow yourself to not fully be aware of the other issues or policies at play? Yeah, is there any level of regret for the potential harm that other people are experiencing, even if you're not experiencing it yourself? And then there are people who are experiencing that harm, right? And so, anyways, like I'm just gonna go back to this as like intent versus impact, I think is a really important distinction and discernment, particularly because I work with a lot of clients where explanations are treated as excuses. If I can explain why I did something, if I can explain what happened, or if I can explain why someone else did something, then it can be excused. And the reality of it is everything has like, well not everything has an explanation, sometimes things happen randomly. Like I don't want to perpetuate that, but you can explain away all kinds of bad behavior or harmful behavior, and it still doesn't necessarily excuse it.
SPEAKER_00Well, it doesn't erase the impact, which lasts longer and sometimes much longer than the intent or lack of intent sometimes.
SPEAKER_03No, absolutely, and so like that's why it's important that we uh like that's why I think it's important that we as white people who exist in a world that was literally made for us get a larger window of tolerance. Yes, because a lot of times this like slight um defensive discomfort that comes up is one of the biggest barriers to understanding what happened and why it happened and the growth that can happen afterwards. So I feel like I had something else like really poetic and poignant to say about that, and I just completely went off the tracks, but I hope that made sense.
SPEAKER_00No, it did, and I agree, and like kind of that kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier is progress over perfection. If you're gonna wait for you to be perfect in being an advocate for someone or an ally, which is there is a huge difference between ally and advocate, and it is you're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna have to learn how to sit with the mistakes, and something like I've mentioned to you, and like the listeners know, like I didn't make a crucial mistake with an X-rain. But the reason at least that probably is part of the reasons why we've had it falling out, but it's not like the main reason. But I supported her but not actively when she had to do something like that, and it never came up until the end, and it's still valid for her to bring up, but if you feel anything, any changes after doing or not doing something between someone, like you need to be brave enough to ask that person what happened because they have probably gotten backlash from speaking out for themselves in certain areas. I know as someone that that works in academia and like studied like for many years, as someone that had a learning disability, I would have to go to the professors and tell them that I had permission to get slides or permission to use this pen. And it always puts the person asking at a disadvantage, and so speaking up for yourself as the minority has a disadvantage because as well, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Who has the power?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, who has the power? Like anytime the majority is brought up on being a lack of concern, a lack of care, the person bringing it up is always gonna be aware of there's gonna be some kind of kind of some kind of backlash. And so and sometimes you're gonna have to be like, you kind of prompt them, which is what I did not do, because I asked her how'd it go, and she gave me an answer, and I looking back, I should have seen it might have been more if this is true, which I'm sure I mean it's Oklahoma, so I'm sure it is true, but I should have prompted her like you can tell me like what else is bothering you because they're not gonna bring it up because or they might, and then it's your job to accept it and to be like, you're right, it's valid. I I thought I was making the right choice, or you're right, I wasn't making the right choice at all, and obviously I didn't make the right choice. And I apologize for that.
SPEAKER_03I want to be sure I'm like understanding your statement, right? No, no, you're good, I hear you. I just want to be sure. So am I understanding that it is the expectation for the person in power, the majority, to be the one to approach the person who they may have wronged.
SPEAKER_00Or okay. At least it really just depends on technically, it depends on the relationship, is my Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, well, because I was gonna say Philly, because this was like a friend, right? There might have been some level of trust, but I do think that that's something to consider is as white people when we mess up and we may approach someone who we harmed intentionally or unintentionally, we also have to let go of that expectation that they're going to talk to us. Oh yeah, or that they're gonna be willing to hear us out, or that they're even gonna forgive us. And if those things don't happen, that doesn't mean that you're like, oh, I guess there's nothing to do with that. It's like no, you still take that experience and you sit with it and you learn with it, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that brings up a great point that can that kind of remind me is back sorry, back to the Hunger Games. Yeah. There was so you remember in Hunger Games where Gail made a trap that killed Katniss's sister?
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna say something really controversial.
SPEAKER_00You haven't read the Hunger Games?
SPEAKER_03I haven't finished reading The Hunger Games. And I didn't watch the movie.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's fine.
SPEAKER_03So But I but I believe you that that happened.
SPEAKER_00But what so they had a falling out because of that, and he goes, even if I apologized, you wouldn't forgive me, would you? And she says, No, probably not. And he goes, Then what's the point? The point is you're not going to recover every bridge, but you still need to take the responsibility, like so you still need to approach them, but you need to take whatever they give you. If they say thanks, but it's still over.
SPEAKER_03Um well, forgiveness is not for the person who messed up. No, I'm just gonna go on record and say that right now. Forgiveness is for the person who was harmed. The act of forgiveness is being able to let go of the anger of the person who harmed you, right? Yeah. And I can do that. I can forgive someone and still not give them access to me. Oftentimes, when people who have made a mistake or have become aware that they've made a mistake and they reach out and they're seeking forgiveness, it's oftentimes out of like placating. It's like, okay, if you forgive me, then I can feel better about this. And it's like, well, I'm gonna challenge you to feel better about it by doing your work. Yeah. You know, uh full cards on the table. I'm not a fan of the phrase forgive and forget.
SPEAKER_00No. It's forgive and learn.
SPEAKER_03And learn. And learn, move forward. Like it's if you can get forgiveness from somebody, that hopefully means that you have done enough work that might have allowed them to help you let go, they're then let go of the anger they have towards you, right? Not a guarantee. But if that is the goal, then I would still say that that motivation is relatively selfish because we're doing it so we can feel better. Versus they get the choice to forgive and they don't have to agree to still be around.
SPEAKER_00Or they get the choice not to forgive.
SPEAKER_03Or not to forgive. That's their choice. They don't have to let go of that anger if they don't want to. Sometimes that anger is protective. But we still have to be the person. Who if we're the person who messed up, we still have to be the person to learn from that mistake and move forward. Now, if you have a relationship with the person who you've harmed and they're willing to give you more information or prompting, like you said, then I think that's so helpful, right? Like help me understand. Like, like help me understand where I messed up. Because if I'm still missing pieces, that might be helpful, but also I don't think we should expect that kind of labor.
SPEAKER_00And if they give it to you, take it. Oh, yeah, because that's a gift. Yeah, they don't have to explain themselves. No.
SPEAKER_03And uh also don't tell them they're wrong. Oh my gosh. I've seen that before in like where people are trying to seek forgiveness and they want information, and the person gives it to them, they're like, oh well, that's not what happened. It's like, no, you can't tell them that. You don't get to tell them what their experience was.
SPEAKER_00I've been on the other side of that. It does not help the relationship. But it's to me, yes, forgiveness is for the person that was harmed, and they have the right to not give forgiveness. They have the right to forgive you internally and not tell you.
unknownOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you as the person that did the harm should still ask for forgiveness, not for them or not and not for you, because that's just a human thing to do. You made a mistake. Saying I made a mistake is you taking accountability for it, whether you actually apologize for it. And also a lot of people that have been intentionally wronged many, many times can tell it's a sincere apology from a insincere. Insincere apology.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I immediately know when someone's like, I'm so sorry. It's kind of the Soly sorry version of bless your heart.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Yeah, we're in the south, that happens. But yeah, no, a hundred percent. No, I think a lot of things like since we want to talk about like discrimination, and I know you mentioned like mental health outcomes and things like that. Like, I think that I have had an incredible privilege of getting to be able to sit in like sacred spaces with people who tell me I've experienced discrimination that they've had that I don't have, right? Yeah. But those are not the only places that I've heard about that. I think that's the thing. Like, regardless of what like I've seen the mental health outcomes. I'm working with people through it. There's a lot of trauma that comes with it, right? And also, there are so many people out there who have told their story. And there are people out there who don't feel comfortable enough to tell their story, and that's totally okay as well. I think again, we need to like the curative piece to me is not the work of the people who are being harmed, it's the work of the people who are doing the harm. Yes. And that's why it is important that we get comfortable with the discomfort. We learn about forgiveness, we learn about intent versus impact, we learn about the differences between explanations and excuses. And also we learn our biases. And I am actually gonna give a resource here. You know, and I know you've been through counseling like programs, you know what implicit bias is, right? But for individuals who don't know, implicit bias are these biases that we hold unintentionally, and everybody has them, everyone has implicit bias. Those there is no way that you can be a completely biased-free individual. There's not. There's not a way you can do that. You have to know your implicit biases so you can keep them in check. So you can go, wait a second, is this a bias that I'm having? Am I truly understanding? Am I jumping to assumptions because of how my bias is informing this like assumption? And a lot of people don't know what they have. So I'm gonna give you a resource if anyone is curious. Have you ever done Project Implicit?
SPEAKER_00I don't think so, which but now I'm curious.
SPEAKER_03So it I believe it's through Harvard, if I'm being so honest with you, but it allows you to the it there's I don't want to tell you exactly what it is because I don't want to prime anybody for it.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03But go through the exercises and see where maybe you have some biases that lie, and it it sets us for bias so along like sex and gender, ethnicity, race, age, those kinds of things, right? And it will kind of pinpoint you to hey, you just need to keep an eye out because you have a bias towards this or a bias against that, and that is something else that we have to be really, really, really mindful of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and something like and you mentioned about doing the work, and the thing is when you're the majority to keep yourself in check, you need to do the work continually, regularly. Because I've caught myself saying stuff and it's like I know that's not true. Why in the world did I think it? Because you know the frame, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I'm gonna step it up two steps. Okay. And if you don't want it said to you, don't think it.
SPEAKER_03So you're trying to stop the thought, not even just like the response, like the com like this.
SPEAKER_00Well, because that's the implicit part, is if you're thinking it, you still have the implicit bias. And like, yes, we're gonna have those thoughts. But the point is like to catch the pattern of the behavior of the thoughts, so when we start it, we don't get to the point where we get to finish it. Because we stop it before we say, like because like our thoughts is actually what controls our action, not our words. That's why and these concerns are very valid from like just from things I've heard and read, like when you see a male that is not white, women have this very ridiculous conception to clutch their purses tighter. And statistically, it's white people that steal more. Yeah, that's true. And so, like, like you have to stop thinking of someone as dangerous before you actually see them as not dangerous.
SPEAKER_03Because so for somebody who's experienced that implicit bias, that like fact doesn't it's not checking that bias, right? They're still creating the behavior around it, like clutching the purse.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Because like you can acknowledge the fact, yeah, but until you actually catch the behavior, the pattern of your behavior.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I think I'm understanding you, I just want to clarify. So no, no, no, I love this, this is great. Um also because I know that you and I have like a background around counseling and things, I believe you're talking about the cognitive behavioral triangle, the CBT triangles. I'm not gonna go into the weeds, you all can look that up if you want, but no, I hear what you're saying. So it's like if you're not gonna say, I also don't have the thought.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So just full disclosure where my brain went was like, well, I can't stop my thoughts. We do have it, we have automatic thoughts, we have intrusive thoughts, like we have like we we cannot completely stop a thought.
SPEAKER_00Well, the point is not to put this thought though, it's the point to acknowledge I'm having this regular behavior of having this thought.
SPEAKER_03So I think what I'm understanding from you is not just behavior recognition, but thought recognition. Like, okay, what thoughts are continuously coming up for me, and can I, you know, combat that so I don't behave in this certain way? Like, I don't want to reinforce that loop, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's hard. Yeah, it's not and I I'm just now starting to work on that part of like my bliss's bias, but it's something that like you actually have to be inside your mind to actually catch the thought because we all go, we all go do those things of like you drive from home like the regular route, and you're like, I'm home. Like, when did I drive?
SPEAKER_03When I autopilot, right? Because like we go on a lot, like our thoughts are automatic, yeah. Behaviors sometimes are automatic, like driving home our usual route. So it's like taking it from like this unintentional passive to more of like an intentional active act. Like, okay, I'm gonna it's metacognition, it's thinking about thoughts, right? Like thinking about the thought, I'm noticing the thought. Yes, um, in order to recognize it and be able to kind of address it. I had a professor when I was going through my master's degree program, and he said, Your first thought is society, your second thought is you. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00I think is accurate because well, as females in this world, we are taught be seen and not heard. We're taught at least the millennials like end, like we start getting out of that. But we're also taught like be demor, don't have opinions, and so our first thought isn't probably gonna be our thought, and it's probably the same for like the more kind of I used an analogy earlier where like the more biases you have, the more canopies of trees are over you. The more canopies of trees over you, the more thoughts you're gonna have that are not your thoughts. There's why there's a reason why people uh of other cultures and other beliefs and other identities struggle with internalized whatever isms they're struggling with. Um like even as white females were taught like if you follow the white man's standards, they're gonna protect you. And obviously that's not the case because sexual assault and sexual harassment has been when we were back in college, it was like one out of four, and now it's one out of two.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so, like, if you can't protect yourself by protecting other people, then like we need to work on protecting everyone in the most equitable manner ever. Which looks different for every person, and because every situation, kind of like what we talked about earlier, is like there's not one person even in the same group that has the same experience.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, oh yeah. I'm an identical twin and I can attest to that. Same parents, same household, same socioeconomic status growing up, and like we definitely have differences. We've had different experiences, right? And like I think that's also important to note is like the individuality of people. But I want to go back to what you were saying about some of these like internalized things that come up for people. So, like women with internalized like sexism, or you know, um, I mean, there's a lot of people who have maybe this like internalized misogyny or this internalized racism or this internalized homophobia or transnegativity, like those kinds of things, right? And where that comes from, it's interesting. I would have to say, in my experience of like my own personal experience, people I've gotten to talk to, oftentimes those spaces, those like internalized negative messages, A is like right, the first thought is society, the second thought is you, but sometimes that like second thought, which may agree with it, is like this assimilation out of protection.
SPEAKER_00That's kind of what I was kind of leaning towards the other.
SPEAKER_03That's what I was that's what I was wondering.
SPEAKER_00Is because as someone, so I obviously, as I told you earlier, listeners, I am all the white cultures, not all of them, but enough where I'm comfortable saying that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I did I've dealt with sexism before, I've dealt with um ableism before, I am biased, so like I haven't had to deal directly with like homophobia before, but like I've had experiences, and it always comes from well, if they're saying this and they have the power, then even if I know it's not true, I need to pretend strongly enough where I don't get attacked. If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03These spaces. I'm trying to really like think about the word I'm trying to use, right? But I do think, kind of going back to your thing of like, okay, we need to recognize it as a thought and then like change our behaviors so we don't keep reinforcing that thought, and it just becomes this like habit, right? Is sometimes individuals have those thoughts and they try so hard to corroborate them or believe that they're true, that then I think that manifests as this like internalized, like uh self-hate. You know what I'm saying? Like, some of the most anti-feminist people I've ever met in my life are women. Yes. I I would agree with that. Um to a point where I think some of them truly believe, like, no, there's this message that is implicitly harmful to me, I believe is true because I have to, because if I cannot, if I can distinguish myself apart from these other individuals, that's a protective factor for me.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And you brought up some I thought this is where you're going, but from what I said of like if you identify the thought and then like stop the behavior that brings the thought, you do need to balance that out. Because like something that I struggle with is I take it too extreme sometimes, and like people have called me out, and like my best friend called me out. She goes, you know, this is probably why you don't have a lot of five friends. I was like, I'm okay with that. Um but it's just like like everything, everything extreme is going to be toxic in one way or the other. Because like I was talking to Liz in our earlier in my first podcast, I was like, if you drink too much water, you like if you don't drink water, you'll die from dehydration. She goes, and if you don't, if you drink too much water, you'll die again anyway. I was like, you will?
SPEAKER_03She goes, Yes, you actually can, yeah.
SPEAKER_00The point is balance in understanding other people and understanding yourself, and also understanding that, like you can do your best, and they might not see you as safe, and that is completely valid on their end. I'm gonna bring up the cookie analogy.
SPEAKER_03Go for it. I wondered if this was going to come up.
SPEAKER_00It has to because it makes the most sense when you're dealing with in discrimination. So this is dealing with sexism in men and women, but I believe it needs to be applied everywhere in discrimination of any type of isms, and that is so let's say it's me and Devin, and I made her cookies, but I didn't tell her that I poisoned like two or three of them. But I didn't tell her that until she was about to reach for the cookies. Do you still want a cookie, Devin?
SPEAKER_03No, not necessarily. Why?
SPEAKER_00Well, only six of the twelve are poisoned.
SPEAKER_03I don't like those odds. You tell me one of the twelve is poisoned and I still wouldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00And that's the point, is when you are when you first meet someone, because we met through two mutual friends. One you've heard of, one you've sorry, well one you've heard talk, the other one has agreed to talk.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, did you trust me immediately? And it's okay to be honest.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I didn't know you, so I believe trust is built over time. See. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00But if someone told you that, like, well, she she's not sexist, but like her best friend is. I feel like there's like an association of like you are who you hang out with the most. And even if you don't believe what they believe, you will absorb some of their rhetoric, some of their behavior, and it will come out.
SPEAKER_03Mmm. Cause it's like modeled for you kind of thing in those spaces.
SPEAKER_00It's like emosis, but of like not the good stuff.
SPEAKER_03But not the good stuff. I'm gonna take all of the crappy things. Well, I think like, okay, kind of to your point, I find it very fascinating too that there's this like belief out there that higher education indoctrinates people into like these very very liberal ideas, right? When oftentimes what the research shows is universities are oftentimes the first time where you meet somebody who may not have necessarily had your belief system or your background or was raised similarly to you. Yeah. I mean, you know, we have international students, but even I think the difference between like, did you grow up in a rural or did you grow up in a metropolitan area?
SPEAKER_00Like, are you first generation student or is were your parents from students? Like there's so many, like because it's not even like outside of that, like it's even like are you studying this, or are you studying that? Are you like a creative person? Are you like uh give me the dirt in the ground type of person?
SPEAKER_03Sure, but this is also where I'm gonna come back to like cautioning against like an explanation being an excuse, right? Because I think I hear this a lot where it's like, oh, they're just a product of their environment, or like, oh, that's they just believe differently over there, or da da da da da da. I think I see this a lot too when it comes to like older individuals, like, oh, it was a different time, right? Like so sensitive. It's like, okay, well, you can explain maybe why this person behaved a certain way or said a certain thing, but it's still ultimately is not an excuse, right? Especially if I have just posed a different alternative for you, or we're having this dialogue, or you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so we absolutely can model because we've absorbed a lot of the people that we hang around, and it still doesn't excuse us, right? So I think that's what I'm hearing from you. It's like, hey, if you met me and you were like, Yeah, but Devin hangs out with like a bunch of sexist people, you'd probably be like, okay, even if Devin herself is cool, I don't want to hang out with her because how cool is she?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's because there's a saying 10% is what happens, 90% is how you deal with what happens. And I feel like it's also the same with who you choose.
SPEAKER_03It's like the saying you are the company that you keep. Yeah. I think that's fair. And also I would like, you know, because I like to I like to push back a little bit, right? It's like, but what if you don't have a lot of choice in who your company is at the time?
SPEAKER_00You can still limit. Um, I think it was Tyler Perry. And he was talking talking about toxic family members. And he goes, You can love your toxic family member from a distance. There are certain people in my family, he says that like I'll I love you, but you stay over there. And so, like, it's really just depends on what's most important to you. Do you if you're wanting friends with differences with different cultures, like you and I both love hearing stories from our friends that are of different cultures, you have to show them that if I see I have like multiple different friend areas, but I know now that I've started weeding out toxic people of different types, that like if me and Michael were gonna go watch a Thunder game, I could be like, Hey Devin, you wanna come? And you could be like, Yeah, and like I would know that both of you would feel comfortable with each other.
SPEAKER_03See, and I think that's something interesting too. Like, I think white people, like, I I definitely have heard stories of thankfully, this is not actually one of my lived experiences because my friend group is very like modular, like pretty much everyone in my friend group can hang out with other people in my friend group. Like, that's not never really been an issue. But I have heard of people who are like, I don't want to hang out with this person and this person in the room because I'm afraid of what this person will say to this person. So then it's like, well, then why are you hanging out with them? If you if you're finding yourself asking yourself these questions, that might be indicative of you need to have some conversations with some individuals. Like, yeah, you have a pattern of behavior that is making it very uncomfortable for me to want to introduce you to other people, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've been on that side of it as a person that was uncomfortable because the friend that's not my friend anymore, one of the reasons why she's not my friend anymore, is I went to see her, and as someone that doesn't drink beer, but I do drink casually, I agreed to go Oktopper Fest, which is for me, I was I would say that was a very curious and open-minded thing for me to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I also don't really like big crowds as a sexual assault survivor, it's not something I'm comfortable with. Sure. And most of my friends, and by this time she had known me for like eight, nine years, are all aware of if. And I was I agreed to meet a friend of her boyfriend, and this is a part of like where what you said of like what how you stand up for other people makes a difference whether they're in or in not in the room or in the room, is because her boyfriend's friend was making me uncomfortable. He was standing really close to me, he was sitting really close to me, and as someone that has dealt with harassment is something that like I can't stand.
SPEAKER_03Like, I'm being like you were getting activated in that moment.
SPEAKER_00Uh I'm getting activated like right now. Talking about it. And when I brought that up to her at our last fallout, she was like, Oh, I just thought you were uncomfortable because or you were you were she didn't say uncomfortable. She goes, I just thought you were upset because we couldn't do that thing that you wanted to do. And then I was like, You didn't see how uncomfortable like that was her response to me asking, like, you didn't see how uncomfortable I was.
SPEAKER_03Well, she clearly saw how uncomfortable you were, but she was attributing it to something different. It's like, oh, we're just not doing a thing Annie wants to do.
SPEAKER_00Which was on a different day, by the way. Like it wasn't even something.
SPEAKER_03That was like a completely different, like.
SPEAKER_00So I think like. But like that is like if you're gonna have friends that are gonna have conflicting beliefs, conflicting experiences, if you're the one introducing them, like if you, if you, me and Robbie, another friend of ours, friend of mine, hung out, and not that he would, but if he was making you uncomfortable, it's my responsibility either to ask if you want to leave and give you a way out that's not awkward, or if you're like, no, I want to stay, but I'm really don't want to be around him, then I have to take the accountability and responsibility of like, hey Robbie, I am so sorry. Um, or I could be like just Bob. Um, I don't know why I gave an actual name.
SPEAKER_03Hi, hi, hi Joe Smith.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, hey Joe Smith. Um, it's your like that's part of being aware discrimination and race, not race, but discrimination and hate, race included in that, is like if you're the introductory point, you need to take responsibility and either give them a way out, even if that means you leave with them, or you ask the person that's making probably other people also uncomfortable. Because if he's making one person uncomfortable, he's making everyone else uncomfortable because they're like, I don't know what to do. Um, because like there is a worry from a lot of people of like, do I stand up and then make it hostile even more?
SPEAKER_03I think that's what we were talking about at the top of the episode, right? Like, you wanted to follow the other person's like example and see, like, okay, what kind of energy do I need to come at this with? Because I want to be mindful of how the other person might be experiencing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but if you're gonna do that, then you need to actually follow through. Because like just taking the if I was like, hey, Devin, are you uncomfortable? And you said yes, and I was like, Oh, okay, what good is that gonna do? You're still gonna be uncomfortable, and now you also don't trust me.
SPEAKER_03And so, like it's like oh Annie just left me out to dry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so like if you are gonna be brave enough to ask the person what's to like hang out, like help them to come to this event. Or like, what do you want me to do? And like your standpoint of like if you ask them, I was like, if this happens, whether you're here or not next time, like what do you want me to do? If you're gonna be brave enough to ask it, then you need to you have to be brave enough to follow through with it. Because otherwise, don't ask it.
SPEAKER_03I agree. I also think, like, to your point, it like if you saw someone, like in this example where it's me, if you saw me being uncomfortable, that also means that you were aware of how I'm feeling, like you're you're checking in with me, whether that's like looking at my non-verbal cues. But I also think we have we live in the world of technology, you know, like chances are you could probably send a text. Yeah, like there are ways to kind of get around it or be like, hey, let's go to the restroom, or hey, can you like come to the like let's say we're at a bar, like, hey, can you go get the drinks with me at the bar? Like, we can have conversations and we can ask those things, right? Yeah, so like I think like what a lot of people used to use as excuses are no longer really like valid.
SPEAKER_00Now it's like how can I talk to them in a crowd?
SPEAKER_03Or so now we just have to be really honest with ourselves. It's like, no, I just felt uncomfortable to ask, or I just wasn't aware, and that's on me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03Like, even if I wasn't aware in the moment, like let's say the roles were reversed and I wasn't picking up. Well, if you came to me next and you told me that, it's like, okay, well, my responsibility to you is to now be more mindful when we're hanging out in these spaces. Like, okay, I just want to be sure I'm checking in on my friend, I just want to be sure she's okay, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that like that also shows that you are a good friend. Because, like, for example, me and my best friend went to Kansas City together and stuff was happening that particular day that like we were both being triggered. Yeah. And her response is like action, mine is to observe. So, like, towards the end of the trip, my foot started fidgeting as like a stemming mechanism. And I mentioned it to her, and I was like, Yeah, I noticed I realized how like built up I was when I started, like, when my foot started shaking. She goes, Yeah, I noticed that. And like, mmm, um, but there was like no way that we could have gotten out of a situation because like we didn't really have a car at the time. We were like, but we were like sitting next to each other, so like we like sometimes the point is like you can't get out of situations, so you'd still need to be absolutely like Yeah.
SPEAKER_03How impactful do you think it would have been if she had just texted you and been like, hey, like just checking in? How are you doing? Even if you couldn't have left that situation for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_00I feel like it would have been the same as like what happened, but like this is also like 20, like 15, 20 years of like being friends, sure. So, like again, it's as as counseling students, yeah. I hated when my professor's like, well, it depends, but it really does depend because like I was okay with my best friend not checking on me because she was actually right beside me.
SPEAKER_03So, regardless, you still weren't doing it alone.
SPEAKER_00I wasn't doing it alone, but that like there's so many different ways of being an LA, being an advocate, being a support system. Sometimes you can't leave the room, and sometimes because like we were traveling with our boyfriend when we are going to Oktoberfest. But what annoyed me was she saw that I was uncomfortable, she wrote it off as something else. Um something that she had asked me if I wanted to do, and then she gave an excuse for why we didn't she couldn't do that until like the last moment. But she also didn't speak up to that guy. And even it could have easily been like, hey, like you're really close, like you're making me like she could have made a joke about it, like you're making me uncomfortable, you're not even close to me.
SPEAKER_03And like diffusing it that way, so like it if it does again, it goes to like the point of like um it's not really the intent doesn't matter, it's the impact that matters because like her intent probably wasn't to put you in an uncomfortable situation, but the impact was very clearly upsetting. I don't know about that. Well oh so you even question the intent. Yeah, I don't we'll talk about that. Okay, that's okay. We don't talk about it. You can cut this if you want to. I want to uh I I like I I I wanted to go back on one thing that I said, and then I also want to add something else. So back uh I asked, what if people don't have a choice about their environment? What if people don't have a choice about the people who they are around, right? Thinking like kids who they don't think they're families. That's true, you know, or I'm thinking about people who live in really small communities, and unfortunately a common occurrence in small communities is differences oust you, right? Like these protective measures, and so when people start to use that as an excuse.
SPEAKER_00Well, nowadays it goes back to like what you said is we have the internet. And I mean, when our friend T was on here, she was talking about how she has a gaming community and they're like all over the world. Oh yeah. I have friends that like just like even the listeners of this podcast, there's like people from like Japan that's listened, there's people from like Mexico that's listened. There's ways to get other input and to help you correct your behavior. I was telling Devin earlier about a book that was really starting me down this path of like, oh, I am still causing a lot of issues. And it is this I'm gonna mispronounce her name like crazy. It's Ruby something. I don't want to pronounce her last name wrong. But Ruby's book, Brown Scars, White Tears, is the most fabulous book that I've ever read. Um there are other there's other great books about other people's experiences both in and out of the United States to help you grasp. There's black AF history, um, there's the people's history. There's oh my goodness. There's so many that I I have um there's the Indian card, there's so there's so many, and yes, our current administration is trying to take away some of this access. Yeah, but it doesn't excuse you from not trying to expand.
SPEAKER_03Well, you said exactly what I was thinking earlier of like we don't have those same excuses like we used to, right? Like I would even argue like for older individuals who are like, oh well, they're just a product of their time, and I'm like, well, they're not living in that time anymore, right? And when people are like, oh, they're a product of their of their environment, it's like you know, to an extent maybe. And also there are opportunities and ways to branch out, to learn other people's experiences, like you know, find online communities or read books, like the book you mentioned, these other books that you're mentioning, like people who have volunteered the labor and the work, like absolutely like read, absorb what you can, right? And then once you're out of those environments, if you have that opportunity, then like really make an effort to try to get to know other people.
SPEAKER_00And I'll take it one step farther. If you're on like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, there are thousands of creators from all different rocks of life that are brave enough and like smart enough to like equivalently explain this is the facts about the certain situation that you blatantly like plagiarized, or and of course you still need to do your own fact-checking. There are gonna be people that have content that looks one way. I've learned that actually believe another way. But there is like until like the internet shut down, you have access to expand your thinking. Again, it's just of how brave are you to actually sit in the discomfort of what because if you want to learn, you're gonna actually have to learn because it's not not comfortable.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. Acknowledge it, yeah. Acknowledge it's uncomfortable, and then also acknowledge it's a choice. You can either keep the status quo or you can choose to try to make a change. We have to sit kind of in this balance of like I'm never gonna be perfect, but I can't try to do better. Yeah. So, yeah, no, I agree. Look at the resources, listen to people, get to know people. I would say check your biases, go to project implicit. Kind of talking about what you were saying earlier of like, you know, I wish someone would have stood up for me and the like give a very specific example. I would also encourage do bystander training.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03I would really encourage bystander training because it also teaches you kind of like what to look for, what to do, what are ways you can do it, and it's very like nuanced. So there's just a lot, but also the work doesn't happen accidentally.
SPEAKER_00And it's gonna have to be a continual choice, too. Anything else you want to add?
SPEAKER_03Oh, we've talked about so much. Um, I feel like this is something we could talk about for so long, and a lot of people have like done a lot of the work and done a lot of the research and things like that.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, and me and Devon are no in any circumstance experts on this field.
SPEAKER_03Just very impassioned about it.
SPEAKER_00Very impassioned, also very imperfect on it, as you obviously heard. We both have made mistakes.
SPEAKER_03Um I'll probably make a mistake tomorrow, you never know, right? Yeah, like you gotta keep going. I would say though, like, you know, if you like if you're listening and you've experienced any kind of like hate and discrimination, uh reach out to your support systems, get help. Therapy is certainly an option. Also, know it's okay if you ever want to request like a therapist with an identity that you share, if that would be helpful and impactful for you. Um, and then you know, if you are a person who has a lot of privilege, who's been listening to this, and you're like, well, I really want to do some work or I want to process, you can do that in therapy too. You can do a lot of things, but also like check out some of these resources, like the books that Annie has mentioned, some of the other things we've talked about today. Just be aware of what exists.
SPEAKER_00Also, uh, if you are a minority that has been listening, anytime you face discrimination, please let you I want you to know that like it is always a reflection of the person saying or doing the things. That was never truly ever. Sorry, that was my phone. She got so passionate that she I did I throw my phone down. Okay, I dropped on, so sorry. It's it was never every time I have to remind myself every time I face a challenge or discrimination or like it's always about the person, it's always them projecting and insecurity on them. And as person people of majorities, we are not saying we are all bad people, I'm saying we all have bad tendencies, and like it takes a lot of courage to face any insecurities, but it's not only gonna make other people's life better, it actually makes your life better because you're not threatened as much. So please keep that aware as you're listening after you listen to this. It's like we're not judging you, we're just encouraging you and challenging you to do better as we all should in this world. Um, to close off, Devin.
SPEAKER_03I knew you were gonna ask me this question too, and I'm still not ready for it, but if you'll see what we'll see what I blurt out when you ask.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I've had so many interesting questions and answers to this. Um if you could have a cup of anything with anyone, past, present, real fiction, who would it be in Dubai? You can also add what you'll be drinking, but that's optional.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness, my brain is going so many places. Um just because I think that this is like the first thing that's come to my mind, I can't give you more justification than that, but um, there is there are two small novellas. It's a part of the monk and robot series, and one of the characters' names is Moss Cap. Um the so the Monk and Robot series is a Psalm for the Wild Bill and Prayer for the Crown Shy, and essentially it's like what happens after humans have destroyed the world, like like environmentally, right? And then like the robots say, Okay, we're gonna go leave, and you all figure your stuff out. And so this is many, many, many, many years later. And then the robots make contact, and the the world has been healing, humanity is healing. It's a very, very cozy book, and I think I would want to have I would probably have tea because the main character Dex probably brewed it, but I would want to have it specifically with Moss Cap. And I would want to talk with them, talk about talk with it about its experiences and things like that.
SPEAKER_00I love how you're like, Dex, sure, make tea, but now leave the room.
SPEAKER_03Well, it is ironic though, because like um Dex the protagonist, they're a tea monk, they go around brewing tea, it's kind of their thing. Um, so I'd be like, yes, Dex, brew me tea, but then leave because I actually want to talk to Moscow. But I highly recommend those books. Um the author Becky Chambers on the back wrote that it's like for anyone who just needs a break. And I agree, I think those books are kind of like a warm cup of tea.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna have to look into those. Yeah, they're very short, each under like 200 pages. Awesome. Well, thank you for the answer. Um, thank you for both agreeing to be on my podcast and giving away your right your choice of what you talk about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I was told and I was like, you know what, that's fine.
SPEAKER_00We got this. I didn't tell you. I asked if you would be willing to.
SPEAKER_03That's true. That's true. I I I consent fully.
SPEAKER_00Like, I did throw you a topic, but I did say you can't choose a different topic because I was going to talk about this regardless. Regardless, because I feel like if I'm gonna have a podcast, I'm gonna need to use it to talk about this. But thanks for listening to this episode. Please like and share and comment. It spreads the algorithm around, and I'm hoping to spread my listeners, not so I get popular, but so my friends' voices and ideas get heard more. Um Devon's making her rock out.
SPEAKER_03I am sorry, I keep forgetting this is like an audio music.
SPEAKER_00But again, thank you for coming. Uh stay kind, stay compassionate, and we'll listen. Let's look out for us next month.