The GRAND Apology: Why Won't He Say He's Sorry?

Dr. Forsyth joins us alongside his wife, Dixie, for a powerful conversation about what we’re calling “The Grand Apology.” That seemingly small moment - when we’re hurt and just want to hear “I’m sorry”...can quickly turn into something much bigger.

In this episode, Dr. Forsyth brings over 40 years of professional insight to help unpack what’s really happening in both the male and female mind during conflict. Is he actually sorry? Does he even realize he’s hurt you? Or is there something deeper going on beneath the surface?

We explore the questions so many women ask:
Why won’t he just say it?
Does this mean he doesn’t care?
Or… am I misunderstanding him?

Dr. Forsyth offers a valuable perspective for women trying to better understand how men process conflict, while also challenging common assumptions about intention, guilt, and communication.

Dixie shares real-life wisdom from their 57-year marriage, how she navigates conflict, what actually works, and the habits that can transform tension into connection.

If you’ve ever felt stuck waiting for an apology, this conversation will shift your perspective, and give you practical tools to move from conflict to a happier, more peaceful home.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to the official Fascinating Womanhood Podcast, where we explore timeless principles for developing true femininity, inspiring authentic masculinity, and building strong, loving, and lasting relationships. I'm Jerry Lynn and I'm here with my mom, Dixie Analyn Forsythe. And together we'll dive into the heart of what makes relationships thrive by offering practical wisdom and heartfelt conversations to help you live a more fulfilled and fascinating life. Today I'm so excited to be joined by Dr. Robert Forsythe, who also happens to be my dad and the husband of our host, Dixie Analyn Forsyth. Dr. Forsyth is a neuropsychologist who specializes in brain function, and among his many areas of expertise are his work as a professor of psychology, a therapist, and a disability expert. He spent over 40 years studying how we think, behave, and relate to one another, and built a successful practice in Missouri while raising our large family. Welcome, Dr. Forsyth.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Today we are talking about the grand apology. It's when he doesn't say sorry, but he's sorry. He just doesn't say it. We call it the grand apology because, in a way, it's kind of like some women want to hear this. I messed up and I'm really sorry. Can you forgive me? Women kind of just want that in their relationships.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

It kind of closes that chapter for women.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

Yeah, that's a good way to say it. They kind of want it, they want that closure. I hate that word in many times.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I know, but that yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

But kind of it's kind of what it is. You know, the end of the chapter, she wants it done.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

She doesn't want to have to think about it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, I gotta say thanks to you two for inviting me to be part of this, and I can kind of represent the guys here. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:49

We need a male perspective with someone, and I'm so glad that we have you here, Dad, because of course mom and I can just talk about this from the woman's perspective, but I think it's so valuable to have the male perspective. You have such a great way of explaining what's going on inside of a man's head. But why can't guys just say, I'm sorry? Why don't they just say it when there's been a contentious situation?

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Well, I gotta tell you, one of the things I know about men is that possibly one of the greatest things they can feel or show is competence. And so if a man prizes being competent and he made a mistake, it kind of goes against competence or uh I don't know what you call it, his uh validity as a man. And so, I mean, it may be a simple thing, like mom says, Oh, hey, you missed that turn. That's the that was the turn. Or I don't know, she may have said to me, When you come home, could you get some milk at the store? And I walk in, she says, Did you get the milk? And I'm going, Oh, I forgot it. Okay, so no, those are little things. Now it might be a big deal too, something really big, like really hurt her feelings, or I I was I was just mean or insensitive. Whatever it is, my pride is definitely there in terms of me being a competent, sort of valid person, and my mind is built to protect me. In a way, I go into almost a defensive mode immediately if I perceive even possibly even a slight threat to my competence or my manhood or my masculinity. I know that sounds kind of almost insecure in a way, but I think this is part of what's going on with a man. He wants to project the um the image of competence and uh that he's a he's a masculine, masculine guy. I I'm as men were taught to go for it to to maybe be even assertive or aggressive or solve a problem or something. And when you know I make a mistake, uh it sets up a sort of an immediate uh conflict for me, and going into defensive mode is really easy to do. So does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 4:21

It does make sense, but let me ask you this when you and mom have a disagreement, how do you resolve that disagreement if there isn't any kind of I'm sorry?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Well, in a way, there isn't really a great uh resolution unless you recognize, and that depends on my level of awareness. Now, I gotta tell you one other thing about men, and you probably realize this, that men tend to be a little less sensitive in relationships than women. I think women are more relationship-oriented, more sensitive to something that's happened, and guys tend to not recognize as easily that they did do something that hurt or that was perhaps a mistake, or they don't they don't, they aren't as quickly aware of damage. And so sometimes uh I think mom will show me some way. She tends to wear a lot of her feelings on her on her face, and I can see uh the hurt or sadness. Uh sometimes she will even uh uh cry. And so I'm going, uh oh, let's see, just a second. I think I missed something here. Now, this depends on my level of self-awareness, and we've been together long enough. Hey, 57 years this year, so I know her well, I can tell her facial expressions and nonverbal communication, and she's not one to typically sort of come back at me in a harsh way, although sometimes she'll say, Hey, that hurt me, or she'll she'll stand up for herself, but she doesn't do it in a sort of a tough way, you know. I mean, the easiest thing to do is just say, Oh, I'm sorry, I did not intend to hurt your feelings. I really did not intend to.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Uh well, I have to say that um over the years uh that we're older, uh, it's much easier for him to apologize. When when we were young, it was harder. Right. And I think some of that is maturity level.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Well, like I say, uh if I'm if I'm designed to protect myself, I'm gonna go into the defense mode usually fairly quickly. So one of the things I I think I do, and maybe other men do, is they cover up guilt with anger. I feel that I did something that I hurt you or did something wrong, rather than immediately going to, oh yeah, gee, I I messed up, I feel guilty. My bad. You know how people say, hey, my bad. When somebody says that, I find that I tend to want to forgive. Or I mean I fairly quickly go into auto-forgive. Oh, oh, yeah, no, it's okay. So if I say it, it helps.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Okay, so what what uh I'm glad you mentioned that because what happens that a lot of women tell us is that they will get they will get a sort of aversion of that, but they don't get the I'm sorry thing. Though sometimes the man, the husband will just become real nice to her.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Right, I think I've done that.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah. Yeah. They'll just be, oh, can I help you? And you think you weren't doing that an hour ago. Yeah.

unknown 7:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Well, I've sometimes brought flow. I remember once I was over at uh Sam's getting some roses for mom, and the girl said to me, What did you do? And I said, Well, what do you mean? She says, Well, uh, if if my dad ever brought home roses, he messed up somewhere. And this was his way of apology. He didn't say anything, he just brought her roses. And so that was their that was the apology. The grand apology.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

That's not the grand apology, but it was the apology. It's a sort of apology.

SPEAKER_05 8:16

Well, so who usually brings up the the kind of need for resolution first? If there's been a conflict between the two of you, is that mom? Is that you? You usually bring it up first?

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Usually.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah. I'm I'm not as okay. I'm just gonna sound like a guy, but I'm not as sensitive to doing something. If she says something kind of mean to me, or that's not mean, but she'll may say something that uh is I perceive as either threatening or invalidating or something, and she's upset. I will I will sort of just go, oh well, she's probably in a bad mood. She's not you let it go. I let it go. Wait a minute. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Do you don't think here's a here's an example. And and dad has done this since I've known him occasionally. If he's upset with me, like there was one time we were dating, only once we had a misunderstanding. And he was upset with me because of something he thought I did, what I actually didn't do. But he was upset because he thought I it was kind of weird. I thought he's gonna break up with me. And he said, Let me think about this. I was so worried. I thought he's gonna, he's gonna break up with me. And we didn't see each other, we had a class together. So we were just starting to date. So I was so worried and I was praying about it. And then when I saw him next, he acted like nothing was wrong. He once he settled it in his mind, it was over for him. He didn't realize that somebody was on the other end wondering, are we still gonna date? Men, I think, sometimes settle things in their head and they don't realize that there's the other part of that scenario that doesn't know anything about what they're thinking.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Does that make sense? Yeah. Her her roommate says something weird to me. I thought she was maybe behind it. I didn't know her very well. And so I took offense and I thought, well, maybe She thought I was maybe I was weird. Maybe, yeah. I thought, what's with this? And then I said, Well, I gotta think about this. Which is kind of a guy thing, because I I don't I don't verbally process really. I mean, I do and I can, I've learned to do it, but I more settle it in my mind, in my own But wait, so what did that look like?

SPEAKER_05 10:44

How did you settle that in your mind?

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Well, I just thought about it. I thought okay, she said that wasn't me, that was her. In other words, that's on her, that wasn't anything that uh Dixie had done. So, and I had to think about that. I thought, you know what? I think that's right, because she stood up for herself, said, Look, what she does, she she can my roommate can do some or say some things that's that's just off base, but that isn't me. Separate me and that other well drive that that really made sense to me. I thought, oh yeah, okay, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

But why didn't it make sense the day I said it?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

That's well, think about it. I have to think well, look, okay, you're you're getting into my my my sort of my specialty area here because I know the brain, I know the brains now. I didn't know that back then, but I know that it's harder for guys to connect thoughts and feelings and put it into words. That's a little trickier. Women have a lot more connective communication networks between uh the verbal part of the brain and the nonverbal part of the brain, and so they can put it into words quicker. I notice you will talk sometimes for an hour to uh you know one of the kids or your sister or somebody. I never talk like I never talk that length with my brother or about feelings. About yeah, talk about business. When we do a phone call, it's more like, okay, when are we gonna get together or what are we gonna do? It's more action or focused or target oriented, and I just say, Okay, what's the okay, okay, we're going fishing at three, okay. We'll see you at three. See you later. You guys will talk for an hour or two hours about how you feel and how that made you feel, and what so-and-so said, and what just replay conversations, and you know, I just uh I do that more internally, and so that was a case where if it happens up at us, it happens to others, where he acted like everything was fine because he'd figured it out in his own head.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

He didn't realize the turmoil that I was in on my well, and I think that's a really good point that you bring up is that turmoil.

SPEAKER_05 12:53

And I think that's something that even when you tell a man like, hey, I'm really struggling, or hey, I've been in agony, or you know, you know, those things that you're that you're telling your either your boyfriend or your husband, you're saying, like, I've just been waiting and waiting. And I think that's what I wanted to get into is why why do you think women need this apology? Why do we want it so bad?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Women, I think, need to connect feelings and thoughts. They need to, it's settled. They need it settled. They need to know that that this is an incident in the past, that everything is all right. And they don't trust just watching actions. That's not really quite enough.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Well, women are about safety and vulnerability too. And if you wanna you want to feel safe, it's like if it's if there's an apology and it's sort of maybe there's a uh a settlement, uh, you know, my bad. If that's been clarified, you can kind of relax again. Like, okay, maybe I'm safe, maybe I'm I'm gonna is it's not gonna happen again, or or if it does, we can repair it. And that really feels good in a relationship when you can you know you can repair something.

SPEAKER_05 14:03

That's uh what's funny is that um some women do get the I'm sorry, but they don't think it's genuine, and they want you to they want you to do it again, or you didn't really mean that. That's also part of the grand apology, is like you may get the well sorry, you know. Oh yeah, but that doesn't sound good.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Well, but I think our culture has kind of gone to that quick apology that oh sorry. I mean, you you can say sorry a hundred times, or you say, Oh, my bad. And we we do that almost reflexively, and in a way, we kind of don't mean it. It's sort of like when I see somebody say, Hey, how are you doing? I don't really want them to tell me, hey, listen, I just chopped off one of my fingers and my car broke down and I'm bleeding. You know, we don't we want it, we want them to say, okay, how are you doing? Oh, great, having a great day. Well, I'm living, I'm living the dream.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

When you're when you're in the checkout line at a store and they say, How are you doing, they don't really want to know what you're doing. Right. It's just a phrase. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

In a way, the the apology thing, you know, you're you're kind of raised to not really believe it. You know what I'm saying? Like when a little kid, you say, now apologize, and they don't really mean it. And we're kind of taught to tell our kids, now you say sorry. And there's good parts to that because you wanna you want to teach your kids to show remorse. I'm sorry I did this, but they don't really mean it most of the time. They just say it. And I think we take that into adulthood, and then us as ladies, we really love the apology. We think it feels like dad said, it it makes us feel safe. It makes us feel like, oh, you know, maybe I'll be safe next time because he expressed that remorse. But when it comes down to okay, he finally says it, but then you as the women uh woman are like, well, you don't really mean it.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

That can depends on it depends on the size of the offense. Okay, like yeah, let's say he uh he cheated on you. The I'm sorry is gonna bring back that feeling of safety. Yeah. It's gonna take time as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Well, I found that we both want to know, do you really care? Right. Do you care about me? Do you and do you care enough to um you know repair with me, or do you care enough to uh correct a mistake that because we you know we all make mistakes. I say things or do things, I make mistakes. And and we both do. We want to know, do you care and will you repair? And if we know that, now if if we kind of get the impression, you know, he really doesn't care. He says, Oh, sorry, sorry, but if he doesn't really care and it doesn't seem sincere, and it's gotta be real, it's gotta feel real. If it feels real, that makes a difference. If it's just like, oh, sorry, you know, and then off he goes out the door, or she goes out the door, whatever. We want to know if somebody cares.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

But what if he feels it but he doesn't say it right? Exactly. Which is what I think is what happens a lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Which is what I think happens a lot. Well, yeah, for a guy though, uh, you know, even hey, I'm sorry, even though he it may not be from the depths of his soul, and a grand apology is at least something. And so I think you have to look at a guy's intent as well.

SPEAKER_05 17:33

So, what advice do you have for women that are stuck waiting for that apology? What what what are some tips for those ladies that are just sitting there going, Oh, I sure would love to get that apology and he and I deserve it. You know, that's what they're thinking. I just he messed up and I need it. What tips do you have for the women that are sitting there kind of waiting for that?

SPEAKER_02 17:53

This especially helps women who have are married because they the idea is they know him fairly well. If you just start dating last week, it's gonna be kind of hard. But if you've known him a while and and you then you can look at his intent, ask yourself, what does he intend? I know him. If he just is really nice uh to you and solicitous, but he doesn't say anything, and the offense is rather small, you can take that as the grand apology and let it go. You can see what he intends and not and not expect always to have the one that makes you feel the very best. If it's a if it's a huge um breach, then you're gonna have to have more than that. But if it's one of those little things like he said he was gonna do something and he forgot, you you can let it go. Understanding him is gonna go a long ways to having you being able to let it go, if that's his version of the apology, because you know him.

SPEAKER_05 19:01

What about for the the guys that are constantly kind of doing the same thing over and over? Like I hear women say this all the time. They say, Oh, you know, he hurts my feelings, he's just insensitive, and he keeps on making me feel bad or putting me down over and over, and I've had it. And I told him I've had it and I'm hurt. You know, I've even heard I'm doing the silent treatment with him until I get it, until I get the apology. What about those kind of situations?

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Silent treatment isn't very good because you have to make sure he understands why exactly you're being silent. Does he actually get it? Uh if it if it was me, I would sit down when you have the time, not right in the middle of dinner or something, and have a talk and say, you know, we have this issue. I we really need to get it out in the open.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Can we talk?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Can we talk? Yeah. When you do it on the spot, you tend to be full of a lot more emotion. And you may say things you don't mean. And then what kind of tips do you have for when you have that talk? Yeah, it's you know, part of girlishness in fascinating womanhood, we talk about girlishness, but part of it that we don't talk about as much is just being up front. Like like like children are, they just say, I'm hungry. Can I have a hamburger? And if you say up front, I'm hurt, we can we talk about this? And instead of hinting, men don't tend to get hints very well. We get them really well, so we expect for them to, and they and then we get mad when they don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

And well, sometimes you have to connect some dots for a guy because he's not he's not connecting that this was related to that, and that that's uh what is affecting your feelings. And sometimes you have to in in in a way, maybe in a gentle way, say, well, see, when you if you say this, uh it hurts. I I feel sad. I feel like you don't care about me, or you know, something that connects things for oh, oh, okay, huh. When I said this, you felt that? You did? Oh, okay, huh. I see, I think women are more, it's almost like it's more acceptable because women are more sensitive in relationships, it's more acceptable for them to take responsibility or be accountable for things they say and do and the impact of them on others. God, they're not as trained in that. They're not as it's like it's almost um Well with women you don't have to be trained.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Women tend to be able to do that quicker. And you you you you have a have already that relationship connection and skill.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

Yeah, I you know, and I have to say, I personally really relate to this topic because I'm married to someone that does not say sorry very often. I mean, even if he were to accidentally bump into me, he probably might say, I didn't know you were there. Or why are you here? He might say something that sounds so insensitive. I don't know why, but one thing that I've really learned, and I think you guys have both highlighted um all of this uh already. I've learned to really pay attention to his actions after he's hurt me, and then I've also had to learn how to say, okay, I can't take this anymore. We need to have a talk. And then I'll talk to him.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:20

And I've had to learn how to do those things because otherwise it will just go on for weeks. I'm never gonna get that grant apology that I want. Right. And I like that you pointed out about the connecting the dots because I can tell you 99% of the time I talk to him about what's happened. I'm telling you, he has no idea. He has no idea what he did. And and part of me is like thinking to myself, how can you not know that you did? You know, I'm so hurt, I can barely sleep, or you know, I'm in like mom said earlier, uh, all this turmoil is going on inside of us ladies, and he has no idea. How is that possible? That these guys have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Well, like I say, w women are designed, I think, to be able to connect more thoughts and feelings at once, and then to maybe be able to verbally process that. So, as men, we really need help from women in this regard. Not that we we want to stop being masculine or protective or competent or anything like that, but we probably need just a little bit of almost gentle education in terms of this affects this or this when you say this, it this is how I felt. And and if it's done in a and it's done in a non-aggressive or a um what would you say, in more of a accepting or gentle way, like a teacher. Not accusing. Not so accusatory, yeah. And and then my defenses won't go up.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

The other part to that is when you understand his intent, you can forgive him. Just say, forgive the lack of the grand apology. To say, oh, he's sorry.

SPEAKER_05 24:11

But at what point do you kind of go from, okay, well, he means well, but boy, is he sure hurting my feelings a lot? Where's the boundary there? What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Oh well, if you can see that he feels bad and is trying to make up for it by being kinder and being more helpful, that is the apology.

SPEAKER_05 24:29

But what if he's not? Or what if he what if he doesn't completely aloof? What if he's just completely alone?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Well then if you can if you can think I know him and this is what he means. If if you feel like he doesn't, is not sorry because he's completely unaware and you can't let it go, then you should talk to him.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

Are you saying that if you talk to him and he still seems kind of confused, removed, confused, or in you've got a choice. I guess you you know accept that he is uh somewhat of a uh caveman and he's this is the way he is, and he caveman things well he does certain things well. He may he may you may realize, okay, here's what I appreciate about him, here's what I like about him. He does he works for let's say he works, okay. He's doing work and he brings home some money to pay the bills. Uh you know what's interesting though?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Let me just say protective.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I mean, there may be some things that you appreciate about there's men that have jobs that require them to be kind of emotionally sensitive at work, like dad's. His job is to help people and understand them. So if you have a husband whose job involves dealing with other people at work and he does really well at it, you think, why doesn't he do it at home? I asked dad that once. I mean, you're right here. He said, Well, I'm doing that for a task.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

It's a task. I do relationships to some degree as a task. Like say I'm in I'm I at work, my job is to manage some people. I think, okay, I need to manage this well. And so I kick into uh that task mode, but I come home and I don't think of it as as a task that I need to do. It's just more where I can relax and kind of feel like I can do whatever I want or be myself. I I can kick my shoes off and put my feet on the table and table. Well, I don't do that. Well, I'm just saying, you know, I just do stuff without like at work. I may not I I may be more aware of that because I've got a task to do to work with these people.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

So it sounds like you're saying that you know his apology is maybe perhaps happening, and you just it's not really in your language. Yeah, right. That's a very good way. That's a good way to put it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

It's like a different language that he's speaking. It's a different language rather than a actual verbal, I am so sorry. I apologize. Will you forgive me? Will you forgive me?

SPEAKER_02 27:19

It'll never happen again.

SPEAKER_05 27:21

Well, and you know, I think that we brought up something earlier that I just want to come back to. Sometimes he does say sorry, and you don't really believe it's genuine. And I think sometimes that can cause a man, you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but that might cause a man to not even want to attempt to say sorry in the future because he'll he might think, Oh, I when I say it, she doesn't believe me anyway.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Or she might beat him up and say, Well, it's about time. I mean, it took you it took you a whole day to say I'm sorry, I can't believe it. Yes, sir. So you beat him up, you need to reward him for even a uh even a lame apology, even something short of the grand apology. He may just uh be nicer, he may do a little helpful thing like, oh, here let me help you with that, or I'll I'll take the kids to soccer practice or so. You know, he may just do some extra gesture that for him, you know, is and you know what he means. Yeah, it's a big deal for him.

SPEAKER_05 28:22

And you can start to pick up on these things too for the ladies that have men that are really bad at apologizing. Let's just say he's just really bad at it. Pay attention to some of the same things he might do. Like my husband always does extra help cleaning when he's sorry. I can just tell. Okay. So all of a sudden, just start doing the dishes, and he doesn't, he hates doing the dishes with the most hated chore, but all of a sudden he starts doing the dishes, and I'm thinking, hmm, why are you doing that? Sorry, but you might not get any of that, and that's the thing where I wanted to I wanted to touch on that is that what do you do if you don't get any of it? And I think you already kind of answered it, which is that he just doesn't, he probably just isn't aware, and it's really hard to believe that as a as a woman when you're in it. How could he not be aware that I'm hurt, crying, or I'm you know, whatever it is, I'm trying to give him all these signals that I'm upset, he's just not noticing.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

More hints, yeah. Women get all those hints, but men don't uh a lot of times they don't, or if they begin to glimpse it, they push it away because they don't want to see it.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

That's vulnerability, it's uh incompetence. Well, if you know, if he does the dishes, I mean it'd be interesting to go up, just put your hand on his shoulder and say, Thank you. This this feels like an apology. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

I don't know how that would go. I don't know whether that Well, you're a man.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

How would you I would kind of I I if it was done vulnerable? Well, kind of, but if it was done in a kind of a uh humorous way, right might make me laugh. Is this is this oh okay depends on the is this an apology?

SPEAKER_05 30:01

I didn't notice, but you know, I have to I have to share an example of this with my kids um because it this starts when they're young, like when when we're young, it starts who knows how young we are when we start doing this signaling and this I want this apology. The other day my son was I I guess we were in a situation where we were in line or something. My son was wiggling a lot, moving a lot, and my daughter tapped him, she tapped him in a sense of like stop it. And he took that as a gesture of you wanna you know mess with me. So he stepped on her foot.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

On purpose?

SPEAKER_05 30:39

Yeah, because he she she kind of tapped him like like not aggressively, but she kind of forcefully tapped him, like like mom, you know what that means. Yeah, yeah. Like, stop it. She corrected him, she corrected him. She corrected him, and he got upset, like she hit me. This was the the dialogue that ended up happening. As I said, what are you guys doing? What happened? Well, he she hit me, so I hit her back. I stepped on her foot and she started crying and she wanted an apology from him. And I know this is just silly, but it's an example of I think what we it's a kind of a an analogy of what's going on in our heads as we get older. And she said, Well, he would he wouldn't stop wiggling. And I said, Well, why didn't you just say stop wiggling? And she said, Well, I gave him the signal. And I said, Oh my gosh, you can't, you gotta tell him to stop wiggle. First of all, who cares if he's wiggling? But if you really are that upset, you have to tell him. And she didn't understand that. She thought, well, isn't she thought it was a universal sign to just tap someone like stop it? The signal. And he she said, I gave him the signal. And he said, No, you hit me. He took it as you hit me. And I know this is just childish, but it it really does kind of hit home when I'm talking about this topic. It reminds me of how we start to get older and we kind of have these kind of silly in a way expectations with each other.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Well, if you give the grand signal, you may not get the grand apology.

SPEAKER_05 32:08

Well, I think that's what us ladies kind of. I mean, I'm sorry, but we kind of do that. We especially like like her tapping is kind of like the same thing as us doing the silent treatment. I'm giving you the signal that I'm mad, you know, or I'm hurt. Yeah, yeah, and I'm being silent because I want my apology. And then he's just seeing, like, wow, what's wrong with her today? You know, what's going on with her? She must be having a bad day. Or worse, he doesn't even notice. He doesn't even know that's probably what's going on. He doesn't even notice that you're being silent.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

No, because he's got a lot on his mind and he's busy and he just thinks you're thinking about stuff processing internally, like he does.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

One woman told me, she said her husband signals to her, he says, Man, your hormones are out of whack today. Oh no. That's terrible. Oh dear.

SPEAKER_05 32:56

Oh dear very insensitive.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

Well, I think what I'm taking away from this is that when you're hurt and you want this grand apology, it's almost like you're waiting to be understood. You're not willing to understand, you're waiting to be understood. That's what I'm taking away from this. Yeah. You want to be acknowledged and understood. And you're not really willing to understand. And sometimes it's just the frame of mind that you're in. Maybe you're just exhausted, maybe you're just you guys talk about this in in your book. The guard dog is barking and it's protecting you from getting hurt.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Well, that's what I mean when I say your mind is built to protect you, and you go into that protective mode. It doesn't often take all that much. I think as a guy, I've found that it helps me to just take a deep breath and listen. I need to listen to whatever Dixie's trying to tell me. And listening, like you say, in a way, I think that's trying to understand before you get somebody to understand you.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

So since we're talking to women and not men, we're saying that women need to try and understand too.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Maybe take a death.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Maybe our ladies can share this with their husbands if they'll listen.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah. Well, take a deep breath. To me, it's like, okay, let's see. I gotta listen here. I gotta, I've got to process this and put a little time into this. This is important because it affects my relationship. And relationships ultimately are what impact us more possibly than any other thing in our lives. You know, the quality of our relationships is so important. And I know you say this in your book.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

It's what makes life heaven or not so heavenly. You know, is the quality of our relationships. We can go through the most unimaginable things if we feel like there's at least somebody near us that loves us. We have a quality relationship.

SPEAKER_05 35:02

So we've talked about this this whole time in applying it to our relationship, our romantic relationships. Does this apply to friendships and family? Family relationships.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

How do you think it's different or is it? Well, you probably don't have as many daily interactions unless they're you're you haven't grown up yet and you're living with siblings or or in a house with grandma and grandpa and things like that. If you're living under the same roof, things will happen more. But if you're not, if you you know, in a marriage, it's it's a constant thing. You even sleep in the same bed, hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

So a friend may lie to you, and it may be like a smaller or maybe a bigger thing, or maybe say something behind your back that you they'll tell a friend that they don't think you're a a very good person, or in some form or another. And that can it can hurt. So in in a way, some of these same principles can apply, I think, either with friends or family or extended family.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Well, the the one issue is if it isn't in the same home, and and you're like say you have a sibling that lives far away, and there's a breach in your relationship, it's hard if you don't see them very much to be able to repair anything. If they see for for for the person who has wounded you, for them to either pick up the phone and call you and apologize is less likely to happen than if you are thrown together a lot, like you live in the same town and the same house. So you can avoid it. And sometimes that can can fester over years.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

Do you think that that is something where you kind of apply the same thing and you just say, you know, I need to look at their intent? And how do you how do you look at that?

SPEAKER_02 36:57

If you if you can, yeah. It really it really helps to look at the person. I remember uh there was someone in the family that I had a really hurt uh feelings with. And this is early on in our marriage, and Bob said to me, You need to look at that person not as your aunt or as your grandma's or your mother. You need to look at them as so-and-so, their name, that they aren't just that title. They are they are uh a person and and that person is vulnerable like you and has different experiences in their life. And what got them to that point of perhaps um being insensitive to you?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

A grandmother or an aunt or uncle, they're individuals as well. And sometimes you think, well, my grandmother wouldn't hurt me, or my uncle and aunt are there for me, and then if they seem to show some uh I don't know, uh either criticism or weakness or something, you think, how how could my grandmother do that to me?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Grandmothers aren't supposed to do that, whereas Harriet, who is a wounded child growing up, she might be. It helps me a lot.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

This happens female to female too. Uh and I think there's a lot of ladies listening to this that might have that situation where it's well, it's not a man that's hurt me, it's a friend or a family member that's hurt me. What what advice do you have about when it's kind of where we've got two sensitive females that have hurt each other?

SPEAKER_02 38:34

You know, I guess you you have to say to yourself, how do you want a relationship with that person?

SPEAKER_05 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Because if you do, which in the case of family members, I know I always do if at all possible. I want one if possible. Sometimes the other person isn't willing, if uh willing to meet you halfway. And you can't really do anything about that.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

You can't make them, but you can you can say, hey, we need to talk, or we need to work this out, or we need to figure something out.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Yeah, and and if you try and it still doesn't work, you have to let some people go. And you don't have to hate them, but you can say, okay, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to kind of keep my distance from that person because they don't care about repair.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Yeah, I I had I think I I had a breach once with a family member and I said to Dixie, um, you know, this is gonna take years. I don't think this is gonna come around. And it did. It took years before any real resolution occurred. I just had to kind of let things proceed and let time pass. And I've had some people say, well, if I just wait long enough, it'll just kind of go away. And I don't have to repair I don't have to repair anything, just time will heal all wounds or something.

SPEAKER_05 39:55

That's not that's not true. Do you think that in that sense the words are necessary?

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah. Uh you know, sometimes after a long passage of time, I have to admit I've rather than try to uh revisit it all, say a decade has passed, I just look at maybe almost like starting a new relationship. And let's let's go from here. But I have to admit I I I'm not quite as as um what would you say? I'm not quite as trusting or I'm a little more cautious about the relationship, where before I maybe assumed, oh yeah, hey, we got a great relationship, we're close, we'd never hurt each other. And so I just kind of go, okay, I'm gonna be a little more cautious, but I'm gonna try to build what I can with what I've got.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that there's a there's a very common behavior of holding a grudge and then moving on, and you haven't really truly let those things go. And I think that's that can kind of be the problem, right? It's like you can't really ever let it go. Like you said, well, it took years, you probably genuinely let it go, although you kind of moved forward carefully.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:14

Don't genuinely let it go, it's just gonna come back.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Right. Well, if the person who it's 10 years ago, that person doesn't re-injure, then you tend to develop a little bit more trust. You can build something new. Yeah, you tend you kind of have to build something new without the trust you had before, but it's not like you have no trust. You just you just don't have what you had before because you realize that person is willing to just do what they did and just drop it.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Well, I I know Dixie's talked about in her book about kind of a relationship sometimes being like a bank account, and you put deposits and you do withdrawals. Some things basically bankrupt the whole the whole process, but then maybe later, years later, you might start putting some deposits in again and start to maybe build somewhat of a uh a relationship account up again.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

And if there isn't a lot of continued withdrawals, maybe you can start with sometimes sometimes the deposits are in the form of you see them uh doing something kind for another person, even if it's not with you, right? You see them moving forward in their life and doing good things. Isn't about the breach with you, but something else. You can see some of their character. That can be a deposit, and that can be a type of deposit.

SPEAKER_05 42:35

If anybody out there listening wants to listen to our podcast that we did about trust and the bank account analogy, that's episode nine. And you can find that on our podcast because that's a really long one, that's a really big topic. But I'm really glad that you brought that up because I do think that it relates to some of this topic of repair, because repair ultimately is intertwined with trust, especially for for females. We want to feel safe. We and you can't feel safe if you don't have that trust.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Yeah, you won't have complete safe with all people that you do with the ones you're closest to, but you can still feel safe enough with people where you at least you think you understand them enough that you can protect the parts of you that are vulnerable and try to move forward with something with them with because even some of the worst people who've ever lived have some good qualities. So uh you don't have to expect that they will never ever hurt you.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

And this could help you see where the grand apology kind of fits in in the whole context of what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 43:41

Well, and I think too, the thing that you you but you both talk about often in Fascinating Womanhood, and I've interviewed you guys so many times and we've done so many YouTube videos, but I really think the grand apology kind of needs to disappear a little bit in your relationship and it needs to become the repair function, which is what I know you talk about in your books. We could do a whole Podcast on the repair function. But in a nutshell, the repair function is basically how you as a couple address problems in your relationship. How do you it's almost like a system that you have in place, whether you're aware of it or not. Whether the man is aware of it and the woman's aware of it, however it may be, you have to have some sort of system that works that you do. And maybe you you both could share what your repair function looks like in your relationship, which you kind of already, I think, have, but maybe you could share what that is for you two.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

We're pretty uh we're pretty open.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

I mean, let's face it, we've been through so many things. Traumatic things, uh events in our life. We build a couple of houses together. Good grief. That's a stressful. That's a whole financial crumples. Job struggles, jobs, uh, babies, operations, um, health problems, you know, just been a lot of different things that we've been through. Uh, we've had conflict with family, and sometimes, like let's say you have a conflict with your parents, sometimes that can separate people because it's like you got to choose sides. Whereas we have found that when we work through things, it tends to bring us closer together. If we work through a problem, we have a problem, we talk about it, and we um show that we care enough to spend the time to work through and do whatever it takes to get on a uh safe and caring foundation with each other. And uh that that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

We know each other's quite well. I can let a lot of things go that I couldn't when I was first married because I didn't know. Just because I didn't know. And so I I can let a lot of things go because he lets a lot of things go with me.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

So, mom, is it pretty safe to say that you're kind of the leader of the repair function? Yeah. You're kind of the you're kind of spearheading most of those conversations.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

She's the relationship leader in our I'm I'm more of the task leader, the the uh get the job done guy. Uh, you know, if I'm grilling, I'm grilling. Don't interrupt me. And um she can do a lot of different things at once, is more sensitive to the relationship, and will mention to me, you know, when you said that to to your son or to your daughter, that I think that hurt their feelings. I think, oh, really did it? Oh, gee, I need to take a look at that and maybe even call and apologize or to do something.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Well, even when it isn't that, it's just insensitive. Like some of you, you kids will like send a picture and he doesn't comment on. That isn't like he needs to apologize for it, it's just a lack of sensitivity. So when I say, Hey, this person sent you these pictures, how will they know you even looked at it if you don't acknowledge in some way? And he hadn't thought of it.

SPEAKER_05 47:04

Well, I like what you say about kind of being the relationship leader and and being in charge, in a sense, being in charge of the repair function, because I think a lot of times when the when our ladies are saying, you know, I'm hurt, I want him to apologize, I want to repair this, they don't they subconsciously don't really want to do that. They don't want to be the first one to say something. They don't want to, you know, kind of take over this and say, hey, you know, I'm gonna fix this, I'm gonna go talk to him. They just want him to do it. And I think that's the part that's really key, is and at least for me anyway. Like I know I'm the the I will never get that apology unless I, if it's one that I really, really need, I I know that I have to go to him and talk to him. And we have to talk, and I know he's never gonna come to me. I just know that, and he's never gonna change. And I think part of that is is intertwined with this topic is like you want him to change, you want him to be more sensitive, you want him to say sorry. These are all these things that you just are dying to get from him. But here's the reality: you're probably gonna have to go to him, you're probably gonna have to be in charge of this in your relationship. Just go ahead and accept that. And you know, it's almost freeing when you think about it that way.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

When you stop waiting for it because you think, I know him, this is the right the way things are. If if he changes one day, I'll be a nice surprise, but I'm not gonna count on it.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Acceptance, and he's never probably he sometimes I see guys are head of the uh repair department, but most guys tend to if you expect him to be the the uh repair function uh uh leader, uh good luck.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Yeah, unless his job at work is a repair function, then he'll treat it as a task.

SPEAKER_05 48:52

Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, even my husband, he's in human resources, so he's always putting out fires. He even calls it spent the whole day putting out fires between people. Well, he doesn't want to do that at home, he's exhausted of doing that at home, and he's good at it, but he doesn't want to do it at home, doesn't want to bring work home, no, and he doesn't know how, to be honest with you. I I know that sounds probably crazy and hard to believe, but he really doesn't know how.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

But you notice how he talks about it putting out fires. See, to me, that's it's a task. Oh, there's a fire, I gotta go put it out. I would never call it that. No, you would never say that.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

That's never that's like the woman who's married to uh a builder and things fall apart in his own home. He's very good at building other people's houses, but he doesn't like to repair the floor in his kitchen.

SPEAKER_05 49:38

Well, the same thing with uh with teachers. Uh teachers are exhausted of children when they come home to their kids, and it's in it, and it's hard for them. I've heard them say this. They say, Oh, you know, you spend the whole day with kids, and then you have a whole week off, like spring break or something, with your kids, and you're just you're maxed out. He's the same way when he comes home.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Well, it's hard to shift gears in a way. Learning to shift gears is a skill as well, right? You know, because you can get into a certain gear and know, okay, I've got this, I know how to do this. Shifting into a different gear that requires a different skill set, that's a whole different networking in your brain.

SPEAKER_05 50:22

Well, it's interesting that you say shifting gears. It's such a male way to describe it. I know. Like, I would never describe it that way. I would think of it more of like, okay, you know, I got to get myself in this mindset. But you're saying, oh, I'm shifting gears.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah. Well, I know, and I I that's why I was struggling a little bit with how to say it. I thought, gee, I'm saying, I'm saying shifting gears here. This technology would say it in, I've got to change my mindset.

SPEAKER_05 50:51

That's what I would think is like, you know, especially like right now, it's kind of perfect timing that we're recording this podcast because I'm dealing with myself having been sick for a while, and then my daughter's been sick, and my husband's gone. And so I'm dealing with lots of juggling, and I have to say to myself, I gotta get into a mindset of taking care of myself, being patient, being prepared. Like, I don't think of that as gears. Okay. I think of it as like a checklist almost. Yeah, for me, it's a checklist. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_05 51:27

But it's that this is a valuable conversation. I'm so glad we're talking about this because there's so even just even explaining this conversation, even explaining this topic, we have different ways of relating to even just different explanations as females versus males. Like the way you're describing it is very different. That's why I'm so glad that you're here. Very different than how mom and I would describe it.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah, you guys probably wouldn't have talked about shifting gears. Or putting out fires. Or putting out fires. Putting out fires.

SPEAKER_05 51:58

Well, I really admire both of you in this topic particularly because I've seen you, and I was raised by the two of you, and I saw you all throughout my life putting out fires, I guess you could say, or resolving things together. And you got you both are so good at this, and I can be, I'm, I'm a witness to this. So you both are very, very good at this, and it it you made it look so easy growing up. And I always just thought, oh, you know, they never really argue. It's easy. Well, uh getting into a relationship myself and and seeing it firsthand for the first time when I was younger, I realized how great you you both are at this.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Well, to be fair, you're the youngest of seven, and we were more mellow by the time you were you were old enough to notice this. But I mean, we we always were pretty good, but um I know even still, sometimes if if I perceive that Bob is upset with me, I want to know at the end of it that he still feels the same about me. Right. That that our relationship is strong and intact, and he assumes that it is.

SPEAKER_05 53:04

Well, and that's the point that I think a lot of men are missing is that when we need an apology, need, quote unquote, we are struggling with that. We are thinking in our heads, do they still love me? Do they care about me? Is my marriage over? Is my relationship over? I think that's a really good point that you're bringing up.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

That looks so bewildered.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Yeah, I I I yeah, I'll sometimes uh she'll say, gee, I've been worried all day. You seemed when you left, you were you seemed uh kind of in a hurry, and you you were kind of you kind of snapped at me about hey, I didn't get this, I got this, I need this, and uh, you know, and and I come home and I it didn't need I didn't even I wasn't even aware that she was worried that maybe our relationship was in trouble. See, I don't even I don't even think that way. She I think that all the time when there's contention. I think what does this mean? She acts like this is the end of our world. And I'm thinking, what? What are you talking about? We're we're great, we're fine, we're there's no problem. She's been stressed all day. And I'm thinking wow, yeah, that's amazing energy. I I don't have that much energy. I I mean I've got energy, but I gotta put it to my tasks.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

One other thing, I just I I hadn't thought of it before, but when I first started working with dad and um his work, office manager, office manager, yeah. And before then I was raising the kids, so I couldn't help him. So but I did. He the way he treated me at the office. Okay, he treated me like a task leader, and and he wasn't you know, he wasn't affectionate like he is at home. He he was very like, okay, don't go the go do this, do that. I need a card.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

I'll say I need a copy of this. Uh let's see, did you get the did you get their uh uh their cards? Did you get that? Did you okay and he almost sounded a little bit like are you grumpy?

SPEAKER_02 55:07

He wasn't. No, no, no. He was task oriented, and I had to clarify with him, are you upset with me? How come you're not how do you how come you don't kiss me when I walk by?

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Well, we're at the office, there's people all over the place, and we're uh hugging and kissing. It just doesn't fit for me to like shifting gears here. I'm in another, you know, I'm a power shifter.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

I have to I had to learn. I thought, wait a minute, what is this? How come you treat me different at home than you treat me here?

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and you take that personally. Of course I do. I said to dad, do you treat secretaries like this? You're so rude.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Well, I think at work they expect it, don't they? Let's get the job done. I mean, listen, this is about getting the job done. Being professional, yeah. That's right. And and and and that getting distracted from getting the job done is wasted energy. It's it's not productive.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

For me, it seems like getting the job done requires being cold instead of warm.

SPEAKER_05 56:11

Well, I think the takeaway that I have about all of this is that we see things just so differently. And maybe mom doesn't see things exact the same way I do, and dad doesn't see things the same way my husband does. But the point is that there's a male kind of language and there's a female language, and you have to learn how to understand each other. And I think with fascinating womanhood, that's what we're all about. We're about helping you understand and his language. Okay, well, this has been a really fun and valuable conversation. Thank you both so much for being here. This has been really fun. And I hope everyone that's listening will visit www.fascinatingwomanhood.com. You can learn more about us, our story, our entire book library is there, as well as other podcasts, links to our YouTube videos, our Facebook group, all the places that you can connect with us. Thank you for being here, and we will see you next time. Bye. Stay feminine.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

See you later.

SPEAKER_05 57:07

Bye.