🎙️ Minding the Gap:S1E5: Featuring Guest Sonia Robinson: The Beauty in Co-Parenting

Some relationships in life require a little more intention, a little more grace, and a willingness to see the bigger picture.

Co-parenting is one of them.

In this episode of Minding the Gap, Sonia Robinson and I talk about the beauty of choosing respect, communication, and partnership when it comes to raising a family.

Yes… she’s my boyfriend’s ex-wife.
 And yes… we actually get along.

Because at the end of the day, when everyone is focused on what truly matters, something remarkable can happen.

🎙️ Minding the Gap: The Beauty in Co-Parenting 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Minding the Gap Leadership Podcast, where real life meets real leadership, and we explore the space between where we've been and who we're becoming. I'm your host, Maria, and today's episode is deeply personal to me. This is a conversation about resilience, hard-earned maturity, intentional grace, and the kind of leadership that shows up not in boardrooms, but in living rooms, group text, school events, and everyday life. Today I'm sitting down with someone whose story challenges assumptions and expands what people think is possible in modern families. Sonia Robinson is a breast cancer survivor, a published author of a powerful book, president of the Baylor Group, a devoted mother of two incredible boys. And she is also my boyfriend Jason's former wife. Yes, you heard that right. And what makes this conversation extraordinary isn't just what Sonia has overcome personally. It's the way we have chosen to show up for these boys together for more than seven years, not as rivals, not as strangers, but as partners and raising two young men. Our story surprises people. Sometimes it confuses them. A lot of times it confuses them. Occasionally it even challenges their own beliefs about what co-parenting has to look like. But at the center of it all is something very simple. We choose the kids over the conflict. And what makes this even more meaningful is that our connection didn't begin with co-parenting. Years before any of this, I was their Sunday school teacher, and there were just little boys, just little babies. Life has a way of planting seeds long before you understand the harvest. Sonia, I am so honored to have you here. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Um, on the outside looking in. And then also the part about co-parenting and how choosing deliberately and intentionally how you you co-parent children. Um, because let's face it, Jason and I are no longer married, but we're life partners.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Absolutely. We're life partners. Absolutely. So, Sonia, before we talk about family and co-parenting, I want people to understand the strength behind the woman sitting here today. You're a breast cancer survivor, and anyone who has walked through that kind of diagnosis knows it changes everything, not just physically, but emotionally, spiritually, and mentally. Can you take us back to that season of your life? What did that experience strip away? And what did it reveal about who you really are?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

So I'm eight years out, almost nine years. So my nine-year diagnosis uh anniversary is coming up on May 19th. Wow. Uh so fast or rewind nine years ago to the moment of diagnosis, um, it's almost paralyzing the decisions that have to be made when you face um information at that magnitude. And here I was a 36-year-old um mother of two, a single co-parenting mother of two. Um, my career was on fire. And uh once the the doctor spoke those words to me, it just knocked me back on my heels. In a short amount of time, of some big decisions had to be made. Uh, surgery, double mastectomy, bilateral mastectomy, uh radiation, chemotherapy, long-term treatment, living will. Wow. Are your finances in order? Right? It you just go down a rabbit hole. Um, I do want to say that my diagnosis was positive, as positive as a breast cancer diagnosis could be. Sure. Right? Um, it didn't mean that the decisions weren't challenging. So there was a moment after diagnosis, and I'm I have all of this information just coming to me, where I verbally told my mom, I don't think I'm gonna do anything but clear the margin, which in medical terms simply means the surgeon goes in, clears any um cancer cells that could potentially be around the tumor, pulls the tumor out, and then you do nothing else. So that's clear the margins. But once I verbalized that with my mom, even with the information coming at me, even with the decision sets that had to be made, once I verbalized that statement, I realized how irresponsible that would have been at my age and being a mother. So that actually gave me the confidence to say, okay, I've got to hit this head on as aggressively as I possibly can, um, which led me to make the decision for a double mastectomy, um, and then ultimately make the decision to do four rounds of chemo. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

How long was that time that your like your mind shifted?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

It was a matter of six weeks.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Oh wow, okay. So a little bit of time. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Um I asked my medical team for a certain amount of time. Major and I had a a trip planned to Washington, D.C. Uh, that summer. I wanted to get that trip in, um, just in case.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

And took the trip with Major, um, came home and then went right into surgery. Um, so it just started happening boom, boom, boom. Um, and then by the end, so May 19th was my diagnosis date. I had my double mastectomy at the end of June. Chemo started um at the end of August. By September, my hair was falling out. By October, I had no hair, and then chemo ended at the end of October. Wow.

unknown 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

So it was a very short window of time given the perspective of time, but I've been on long-term treatment now for going on nine years, and I'll have about one more year left. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Take me back to when you first realized, hey, there might be a problem. Because I feel like as an adult, and yes, I still air quote that word because it's so funny. As much as you think that you know so far in life, you really have so much more to learn, right? And so that's one of the great things that I am learning with this podcast and having different, you know, guest speakers on is that we're learning to mine the gap together. Take us back to when you were like, oh, that might be a problem. Let me go and get that checked out. Because I'm sure, you know, going through what you were going through in the life that you were living, you didn't want one more thing unexpectedly to come up. So talk to us about what that looked like.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Okay, so this is a very, very important part of the story that is a direct message to not only women, but to everyone when it comes to your health care. Without your health, you have nothing. Um, I was 36 years old. I did not do my monthly self-breast exams. I went into my annual appointment with my gynecologist. And the nurse practitioner enters. Well, before the nurse practitioner comes in, the net the nurse tech uh comes in and she's like, Oh, Sonia, you're 36 years old. We need to go ahead and schedule your baseline mammogram. And I said, No. Why? Because I was busy. Oh, my career was on fire. I had no concerns, hadn't felt a lump because I wasn't doing my monthly self-breast exams. I said no. Nurse Tech leaves the exam room in walks the nurse practitioner. We're catching up on life, all the things. She lays me back on the table to start the breast exam, and she puts her finger right on a palpable lump. That is the moment things shifted. Laying on that table, Sonia, there's a lump here, fill it. Yeah, it's there. Felt like a little pinto bean, um, just under my skin on my left breast. So, mind you, I had just said no to a baseline mammogram. So God works in funny ways, right? That fast tracked me to a diagnostic mammogram and ultrasound. Um, and they waste no time. Um, anything with diagnostic on it, you're gonna be fast-tracked in. So this was on a Friday that the lump was found. By Monday, I believe, I was in for a diagnostic ultrasound. Um, all along in my mind, thinking this is nothing. Sure, but this is just the process. You've got to rule it out. There is nothing going on here. Um, it was the day I yeah, it was Monday. It was the day after Mother's Day in 2017. Um, I went to my diagnostic mammogram and ultrasound by myself, dressed ready for a sales meeting that afternoon because I was so confident I was gonna walk in there, they were gonna do the imaging and tell me, ah, it's just a whatever.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Um, that did not happen. So I'm I'm sitting there um at Crestwoods Women's Center. Um, they're getting all the images for the mammogram. And then the technician walks out of the room. Hey, I'm gonna go consult with the radiologist to make sure I captured all the images that she needed. And then when she walked back in the room, she said, I'm gonna get you over to ultrasound. By the way, the radiologist will want to speak with you before you leave. Wow. Even still, I wasn't shaken. The little, you know, voice in the back of my head was like, fabulous bedside manor. I bet she talks to every first-time mammogram patient. So ultrasound's done. I'm sitting there in the exam room, and the radiologist comes in, and that's when she tells me it looks suspicious. Um, so at that moment I knew, okay, maybe we're we're dealing with something a little more serious here, but I still felt deeply that it would be nothing. Sure. Um, but it turns out it was cancer. And um, believe it or not, uh, being almost nine years out from it, um, I'm in a position now um far removed from the emotion where I can glean the wisdom of the experience and look back, realizing that breast cancer was probably one of the best things that could have happened to me.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I think thank you so much for sharing that. Um, I really think that it resonates for our listeners, but 100% for me, as you share that you were dressed to just go to your next meeting. Wow, you can feel that statement, right? Because it's just another box that we have to check. Yeah. And it's not something that you want to prioritize until you have to prioritize it, right? So I definitely believe in your statement, you know, how you opened it with, you know, health is everything. Health is everything. Wow, such your boobies.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Literally. So to expand that story just uh a little bit further. Um, after I have this interaction with the radiologist, I I go back into the dressing room to put on my professional armor, right? Um, and I look at myself in the mirror and I could feel the tears starting to come. And and you're just in that moment where you have to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not the time. Pull yourself together. I went on to my meeting. No one knew what had just transpired. I did my meeting. I walked out of that meeting, and my cell phone rang, and it was my GYN. She already knew. And when I answered the phone, all she said to me was, Sonia, I'm so sorry. So I sat down. Um, we we talked and she lined up my next appointment, which would be um a biopsy. Um and yeah, I I got myself home and offstage where I could start processing the emotion and and inventorying what this meant. Yeah. Uh, so I would be offstage and away from anyone that didn't need to see um me fall apart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Tell us about the knowledge that you had about breast cancer before you became a survivor. Um, did anybody in your family have it? Did you have to go through the process with anybody before in your past?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Um, the only experience I had um was was a couple. I I had a a cousin, um, distant cousin who uh went through breast cancer a lot more aggressively than than what I was diagnosed with. And then um 18 months before my diagnosis, my maternal grandmother was diagnosed, but she was in her late 70s. Right. You know, I'm of the mindset we're all gonna get cancer. Right. But when we're in our 80s, right? Not when you're 36. So she was diagnosed. The biology of her uh tumor was exactly the same as mine. Hers was smaller, and all they did was clear the margin because at her age, this wasn't gonna be what killed her. Yeah. I just missed it. Uh, but once we got the biology of my tumor back, um, which was uh her two negative, BRCA one and two negative, but ERPR positive. So my breast cancer was fueled by my hormones, estrogen and progesterone. Um, we consulted with my grandmother's oncologist, and he was like, even though you're, you know, BRCA one and two negative, both of you are, um, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. There's likely something environmental that could have sparked um our cancer and and sparked it to develop when it did in our bodies. Who knows? It's hard to pinpoint exactly what environmental issue it could have been. Uh, but yeah, that was the only other one. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Cancer has a way of forcing stillness, whether you want it or not, right? Like you were saying, you know, you were saying, no, never, you know, I don't, I don't need that exam until it became a priority. Your book, Paul's Stillness in the Strategy, feels like it was born from that space. So what does stillness mean to you now, especially as a leader and a mother?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Stillness is not the absence of action. Stillness is action. It is an action that we choose intentionally, and stillness gives us space to think deeply, uh, process emotion, uh, process um what we're feeling um at a particular time and space. Um, and it's you know, a responsible action to an individual. That's how I interpret stillness. And stillness was hard for me to find up until this point. Now uh stillness is is something I choose routinely. Um, I've slowed the pace way down. Um and I'm continuing to slow it down even further. Sure. And really focus and hone in on what are the the activities, what's the behavior? Uh, where does my time get distributed? Sure. Um, and I'm very protective of that time.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

I think that you um, you know, hit the you know, the nail on the head when you said you choose. You know, it's your choice. You can choose to just do all the things and not really do anything, right? Or choose the the stillness. Sonia, who did you write that book for? So I want our listeners to hear, um, and then who did you hope would pick it up and feel seen when reading your words? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

So um, I brought my book for show and tell, of course. Um, I brought another book we can talk about here um in a minute, but uh Pause, Sometimes Stillness is the strategy, is my memoir. Um, yes, I wrote it at the age of 44. Um, I hope I live long enough to write the second edition. But this book was written for my boys. And the catalyst of this book, um, when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and the emotion of it, that's when you want to take action. Um, so it had been on my heart to speak about this, to talk about it, to empower women um to own their health and be unapologetic about their health and demand things, to talk about things, to be suspicious of everything, right? Um not in a paranoid way, but in a proactive, hey, as we age, obviously our bodies are changing, and it's our responsibility as the individual to take care of. It's our responsibility as individuals to own our health care. It's no one else's responsibility. Um, so I wrote this for my boys, and the catalyst being um in December of 2024, that the end of 2024 going into 2025 was probably the hardest period of my life, even outside of breast cancer. Because for breast cancer, that that impacted me and it was my decisions. Um, and I didn't make those decisions lightly. I consulted with trusted advisors, I consulted with my medical team, I researched, I prayed, I meditated, I worked out, um and knew that I could make the best decisions for myself. Sure. And the reason I was so aggressive in my decision making is I didn't want to look back 10, 15 years down the road and a recurrence happen and I look back with regret. So now, if if I were to ever experience a recurrence of cancer, um, I have the peace in knowing that in the moment, I made every decision as aggressively as I possibly could because I was young. I knew my body could handle it and recover from surgery. I knew my body could handle and recover from chemo.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

So um the catalyst for the book was my childhood friend and neighbor. Um, she lost her battle with cancer. It wasn't breast cancer, it's a different kind of cancer, but she was 47 years old with a seven-year-old daughter. And that shattered my heart into a million pieces. Um, it's still hard for me to talk about it. Sure. Um, there's a chapter in the book about her, chapter 33. And um, I'm so thankful to her mom and her family for allowing me to share my perspective of her fight and the impact that it had on me. Uh, so I wanted to capture that in my book, and I wrote the book because of her as well. Um, and then the process of writing was so cathartic. Um, just unpacking a beautiful life up until this moment.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Because my life has been extraordinary. Yes, it has been very beautiful. And even though there are hard things that have happened, there are difficult things that are happening that have happened, and and I've grieved and I've had to face grief multiple times and process that grief, it's still beautiful in the stories that you hear, the relationships that you build, the people that you meet, the successes that you experience, the failures that you experience. Uh, so all in all, um, I wanted to capture how beautiful life could be even in difficulty. Absolutely. And you did it beautifully. Thank you. Well, you also have a chapter in here. A chapter titled Maria. Uh-huh. Um so there's a story in here dedicated to you as my co-mom.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

We get music now. So, oh, go ahead. Let's let's do that one. This one? Yeah, you want to? Um, you want to wait? We can wait. Okay, we can come back to that one. So, Sonia, today you serve as president of the Baylor Group, a role that requires vision, decision making, and emotional steadiness. How did your personal trials shape the way that you lead professionally?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Ooh. What a powerful question.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

I love asking the good ones.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Oh, yeah. I'm gonna lean into this one and say when I became a manager for the first time, leading people. I've failed miserably. Miserably. I have more failures that I could probably talk about in leading people than I do successes. But every young manager is going to be thrown into the fire. Yes. It is a skill that has to be honed. It's a skill that has to be practiced. So now I'm I'm at a place in my life and my career that I can reflect back on those failures with a little more grace for myself to say, hey, yeah, let's lean into it, Sonia. You were terrible. You were a terrible leader of people when you first started out. But how has those failures shaped the leader that I am today? And I move forward with leadership with three very simple principles: lead with respect, empathy, and kindness. Yeah, that's it. Those are my three guiding principles in leadership. And if I'm making a decision or in a position where action needs to be taken, I first pause, sit in the stillness of that decision, consult with trusted advisors who may um have some wisdom I can glean from in a decision that or action that needs to be taken. And then I look through the lens of respect, empathy, and kindness. Love it. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Do you feel like surviving something life-threatening recalibrates what truly matters in business and success? I know that you touched on that on your personal life. Do you believe the same for business and success?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Absolutely. Um the biggest leadership teacher I've had was cancer. Um it made cancer allowed me to evolve into a more empathetic leader. It doesn't mean that I don't hold individuals accountable. It doesn't mean that we don't have hard conversations. It simply means that when difficulty arises, when hard conversations need to take place, that as a leader, I'm able to channel the words through an empathetic voice.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Um and see the individual where they are. Because I've I've been in places that some people have never been, and that gives me just a very different perspective on you didn't meet your sales numbers or a customer is upset because of your inaction.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

It it just allows you to channel through a different lens to say, okay, where does this fall in the hierarchy of being human? Right. And how do we grow from this? Um, and how do we coach and mentor and teach uh to level everyone up in the process? And I I love doing that. Um, I have the opportunity to work with students now through my volunteer work with the Public Relations Council of Alabama, which is a professional organization that I credit for my success in my career. It's been the through line of each milestone in my career, even all the way up to the C-suite as a CEO. I've routinely practice the principles of public relations through my leadership, through operating a company, through leading a company, through growing a company. It was all filtered through public relations. So I'm vice president of students this year, and I have 14 students who will be uh working with me at our annual conference. That's so exciting, Sonia. This month. And um I sit back and as I'm evaluating how I want this program to be structured, where are the students going to get the best benefit? It's stepping back and looking at it from the angle of I'm here now at this place in my career. Here are the things that I've had to um traverse or navigate, if you will, to get here. Um, what do these students need to hear? Sure. Uh, what's most important for them as they're starting their professional journey? And I mean, your career is what you make it. Yeah. And it can be so fun.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Um, but it it takes a lot of hard work too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Uh sorry. Okay, we're on a new one. So, Sonia, now I want to move into the part of your story that people are often most curious about just from my angle of questions that are kind of by the way, how does that work? I have the privilege to really recruit and mentor everybody on our team. I'm very hands-on with that. And I'm very open with my role in what and how my family looks because um at one time I was very protective over the story. And I've realized that people really are curious of the dynamic because it's very unique, unfortunately, um, in this day and age. And for them to hear that it can happen, you can really see kind of a spark in their eyes, you know, oh, well, they're they're doing it, you know. Um, so you and Jason share two amazing boys. Obviously, I'm biased. And for over seven years, we have co-parented them together in a way that many people say they've never seen before. We get that question a lot when we're at group settings, family settings, birthdays, football games, baseball games. Um, we attend those events together. We communicate openly. I jokingly say, Sonia and I speak very often in a group chat more than Jason and I speak, and we see each other every day. Um, we celebrate milestones as a united front. Um, there isn't tension in the room, there's respect. Honestly, people sometimes don't know what to do with that. And I feel that immediately. And I'm like, oh, they're uncomfortable or they're still trying to analyze or process that. From your perspective, what made this kind of co-parenting possible?

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah. Um divorce is hard when kids aren't involved. Divorce is hard when kids are involved. And early on uh following divorce, our choice was respect and responsibility. Is it hard? It's hard work. It's hard work to um respect a person that maybe you feel has hurt you or doesn't understand you. Um, it's hard to respect someone while you're picking apart a life that you built together. Sure. It's just hard work. Yeah. And the human emotion is still there. Um, but it's how do you process that emotion? How do you put that emotion on show in a respectful and responsible way? And out of the gate, we put the boys first. There was no question on either side. The boys are our responsibility. And as I said earlier, um, we're life partners. Even if we couldn't make our life together work, we're still life partners because we have these two humans that we're responsible for.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Um, and that's our responsibility as the adults. It's not the children's responsibility to manage the relationship. That's our responsibility as the parents. And I'm really, really proud of what we've been able to do. Yes. Um, and what we're teaching our boys in the process because it's teaching respect, it's teaching kindness, it's teaching how to have hard conversations in a productive way. Absolutely. Um, and we do. Yes, we do. We do all of those things. Absolutely. But you and I, we are peculiar. We're very peculiar.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

We're peculiar, but you know. So because then the uh default narrative in our culture is conflict always, custody battles, resentment, competition, hurt feelings carry forward forward, but you choose something different. Was that a conscious decision from the beginning or something that evolved over time?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Um, it was a very conscious decision, um, and one that I had to work on personally. You and I knew each other uh before you became a parent.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Uh being a bonus mom or a bonus parent in general is the hardest role. I recognize that. It is the hardest role because you're stepping into um a family unit that does look different. And how do you find your place within that family unit? So hats off to you, sister, because you this role is beautiful for you. You are flawless. We've got some really good boys in in it. So when you're going through a divorce, when you're picking apart lives um and starting to build your own life outside of that relationship, but build it with your children as a part of your your, I don't even want to say new life because that's not how I see it. This is my life, it's not a new life, this is just my life. There, you're gonna feel all the emotions. Did I feel jealousy towards you when you first stepped into this role? Absolutely. Absolutely. But that was my responsibility to identify what that emotion was and where was it coming from? Yeah. Why did I feel jealousy? And so I want to take us back to my book and the chapter that is written about you. Um, and this will help um your listeners better understand our dynamic and why it's the way it is, is because I truly believe it's divine. Following breast cancer before surgery, before chemo, I'm grappling with these decisions. And at the time, uh I lived in a neighborhood, and my house, the boys and I, our house was the hub for all the friends, right? I kept the refrigerator stocked, I kept the pantry stocked, and I always enjoyed having a house full of kids, mostly little boys. And this particular day, I was out on the back patio with Max and one of the neighborhood friends, um, and this young boy at the age of seven, um asked me, so you have cancer? Like, yes, well, you're not old. Context here is his grandfather was battling cancer and the prognosis was not favorable. It's it's what he said next to me or asked me next. Um, who will be major in Max's mommy? This is a seven-year-old boy, aware of the weight of cancer. Again, my prognosis was positive. Um, at no point was I concerned that this would take my life.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Um, and then boom, before I could answer, he's gone. They're off playing. It's like the conversation never happened, but I'm left on the back patio with this question hanging in the air. Sure. And I did what I knew to do, and I started praying. Yeah. And I said, God, please do not make me a liar. Yeah. Please let me be Major and Max's mommy for a very long time. Yes. Please let Major and Max have a mom. That is how I ended my prayer. Not me, let them have a mom. And then here you came. So now um I see it through through the lens of divinity of um God answers prayers in in funny ways sometimes. And uh he sent Major and Max. I used to say backup mom, but you're so much more than backup mom. Um he provided another mom. Yeah. And that is how I was able to approach it and say, okay, um, I prayed for this. And you are now in our lives, and there's a reason for it. Uh, we may not know what that reason is, but now we have the opportunity to raise these boys to be respectful, kind human beings. Yeah. And that's our responsibility as parents, regardless of whether they're your biological children or not. Um, that's why I brought the second book. Jouet. This is actually a fiction novel. Okay. Um, and it's quite interesting. The narrative is about um young parents when they bring their baby home from the hospital and they don't know what to do with it. Um, the mother refers to this baby as a baby owl because it's just so odd. Its behavior is so odd. And as this baby owl grows, it continues to not act like they thought this owl should act around. Okay. Um, but the translation to parenting is we we bring children into the world and we have zero control over the decisions they make.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

We have zero control over the identity that they build because they are themselves their own unique individual. But as parents, we do have the responsibility to influence through our own behavior and actions. We have um the ability to set up the guardrails to help guide them along the decision-making process. Um, but we're not here to force them to our will. Sure. Uh, they again are their own individuals, and that's how I've chosen to approach parenting is observing behavior, observing actions, where do I need to intervene to help educate and inform around social norms and um healthy and productive behavior and choices. Um, and again, that's that's just more hard work. Everything we do is hard work, but I just thought that was a very interesting way to approach a hard topic around parenting and how we all sometimes look at our children going, oh my goodness, what is this creature? Right. Especially when they become teenagers, right? They just morph into these just humans that you don't even recognize. But again, as the adult, stepping back and understanding um behaviors, uh, understanding developmentally appropriate uh phases of life, um, and how do you sort of again just put those guardrails in place and and guide them, course correct them when needed, and put them in positions where they can surprise you.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yes, I love that. Going back to the conversation um that we had, so we spent New Year's Eve together a couple of years back. Um, the boys wanted to have their friends over, and it was just a natural just get together for us, right? Um, and you had shared with me at that time for the first time that you had felt that J-word, that jealousy. And it floored me and it really made me own my actions and to be aware of other people's views where I feel like for my entire life, 41 baby years, um, that, you know, I'm very sheltered. I really have goggles on. Um, but you know, some of the posts that I would make on social media about me and the boys, um, you know, I I it resonated at that point during that conversation. Ooh, you know, and I say this, my team laughs at me all the time, but I'm like, oof, like really, I could really feel that. I, you know, Jason, and I talk about him all the time on this podcast, and he loves it. Uh, you know, he shares with me, why do you post so much of your life? And it honestly is a recall for me because I go so fast in a day-to-day. I now take glimpses of what I want to remember. And some of the photos, it's a feeling that I was going through at that time. But all of those memories, especially at the beginning of building my relationship with the boys as a bonus mom, were very unique. I could tell that Jason was learning his footing of how this all would work as he still is. Um, I could tell that, you know, our families were trying to figure it out at the same time. And it was really honestly looking back a way for me to say, this is how I'm interacting with these boys for myself. And I wanted to make it fun. And I remember years ago, Jason was like, Maria, not every time we have the boys has to be themed. And I'm like, Well, Jason, yes, it does. We need a dino night with dino cookies, and we're watching Jurassic Park and like all the things, but it was it was a very cool scenario, and I'm super grateful and blessed that it was the the boys. It was you and Jason that I got to make all these memories so far with. Um, and it being just so natural was really cool uh as a dynamic. One of the greatest memories that I think back to a lot is us coming together for major trip to Washington a couple of years back. And it was Jason's 40th birthday. Um, all of the things with the travel and our flight gets canceled. And here's Jason and I calling Sonia at eight o'clock at night saying, Hey, we're gonna have to crash your Airbnb. And Sonia's like, Oh, come on. And so we joke about that, but what a great memory for not only us, but for our boys because they're part of that memory also. And for them to be able to tell that story, you know, and it is very unique, funny, you know, humorous. But um, I remember that trip we went to dinner. Um, and I can't remember the name of the restaurant. Was it the steak restaurant?

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

And us just talking for hours. And Max, you know, being involved in the conversation as a young child, and then, you know, halfway being like, okay, I'm bored, I'm ready to go. Um, him and I racing the streets of Washington to get back to, you know, our hotel and Airbnb. And it was just a really cool feeling. We have FaceTimed Major and all of that to say, like, there's a photo of us, you know, um, it was a selfie with major on the phone on the speaker phone. And I'm like, wow, at that. Like, there are people that can't even go to their, you know, stepchildren's ball games because of an ex, you know, and for us to be able to travel across, you know, the United States to spend some time with our kiddos, that's really cool. That's a really cool dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Yeah, and I want to um go back to what you when you started out um talking about this, you said that I had no idea you felt jealousy. No. But that's an important um point to call out is of course you didn't know, but you and I had a conversation about it. Yes, a respectful conversation. Yes. You heard how my perspective and my feelings, I heard yours, and we talked about it. Yes, yeah, um, through a normal adult conversation.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Um, we weren't bashful about it, we weren't intimidated, we just simply said, Hey, this is what I'm feeling. Um, and out of respect, I just want you to know. Um, but I that was still on me. It was my emotion to feel. So it was my responsibility to process that emotion, yeah, um, and not yours. Um, and I wasn't trying to get the monkey off my back and to yours, right? Yeah. Um, so I think it's important too that we do pause and have conversation in a respectful way to voice concerns, voice feelings, um, just simply for the other person to be aware because we're we're different human beings. Right. And you're not a mind reader. I'm not a mind reader. Right. Um, and that's one thing that you and I do do very well. Yes, is if if we catch a hint of a behavior change in one of the boys, we're talking about it. Right. Um and just open to conversation all around. There, there are no topics. Are off limits.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

No, no. And I do feel like we have chosen that teamwork mentality. You know, when you know, adulting is adulting and like the family's going through. I mean, you know, I look in the room and you're there, right? And then vice versa. There's always something happening. And I'm not looking around for the adult and on the adult. Um, so it's really cool to be able to um to co-parent in that light. Um, I think one of the biggest mindset shifts is understanding that divorce ends in a marriage, but it doesn't end a family. And that was very strong for me to realize. Um, I had gone through two failed marriages before my relationship with Jason. And I was headstrong that I was marriage was not for me, but a family was. And so that was a whole new dynamic that I had to figure out while, you know, building my career and building my new life. Um, how did you redefine your role once the marriage ended? But motherhood remained shared.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Um, you you go through um a moment where where you're redefining your identity. And um sometimes you can get off track. I I certainly did. There are moments that I look back on and think, probably not the best decision, but so is life and learning. Um looking at who I am now and my values and my principles. Um it all it all compounds every experience from divorce to a year and a half later breast cancer alone. My mother was my caregiver. Having to navigate that, then deciding, you know, do I date again? I have no hair. I guess I need to wait until my hair grows back out. Um like that became like the um, okay, now my hair is at a cute pixie. I can actually maybe start dating again because I don't look sick. Those are all questions that you have to ask yourself. And and dating, um, it it's interesting, it can be fun. Um I I go through moments of you know, marriage may not be for me. It it's just sometimes you feel that way.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Um, but how going through divorce, going through cancer, building a career, parenting two young sons, I will center myself and I do this so much better than I used to. But throughout the day, I have moments where I just stop and let my brain catch up.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Um, I've learned this about myself because of chemo brain. It's a side effect of chemotherapy. When you're going through chemo, all the poison just it just fogs your brain up. Then you enter into clinical menopause, which I've been in for almost nine years now. There's menopause brain, the fog associated with that. So I've just had to lean into the fact that this is who I am. These are the limitations that I have. How do I use those limitations to push me forward? Sure. Um, so throughout the day, I will have moments of just stillness, quiet, let my brain catch up. Uh I go through my day in very like micro um tasks uh so I can focus and hone in. I do not multitask. Um, I would get rid of my cell phone if if I knew that my mother would allow me. Um oftentimes I'll have my cell phone away. It's just not part of who I am, it's not a part of me. Um I limit distractions, um, reduce the noise, yeah, and just focus on what do I want to accomplish for my life? What is going to give me happiness and joy outside of anyone else? Um, I love love. I romanticize my life all the time. I love love and I love being in love. And love is this beautiful, beautiful thing, but it's not the only emotion, it's not the only accomplishment in life. Uh so I I double down, I get really, really focused on who I am and what brings me joy and the work that I do is a big part of that. Big part of it.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

I love that. Um, I do want to share also. Um, I have been with the rest of the world. Um, my little, you know, guilty pleasure is watching the love story of JFK Jr. I have not started watching that. Oh, it is everything right now to me. But I the the oddest things always stick out to me. And it was something that his mother had said to him, This might be fictional, it might be, you know, I don't know. I haven't done the research, but I've resonated with this. And she said she was talking about, I believe it was her mother. And she was saying, you know, John, you knew your grandmother, but you did not know my mother. And I'm like, oh wow, that's great. Because yes, right. And so I started thinking of that phrase um in my life. And I'm like, that's really good. That's a really good line if she didn't really say that. But you know, I I resonated on that line, and I said, Well, let me share that on today's um episode with Sonia because I think that that resonates with us. I never knew Jason's wife, I know the boy's mom. And I really think that that was my mindset going into it. And I just a normal person, I'm respectful. You know, I treat everybody with the same amount of respect. I was raised that way, but I started the relationship with respect. Um, it is always funny for me to explain how I knew the boys. Like, how did all of that happen? And I said, Well, how did I know Sonia and the boys, or how did I meet Jason? Because those are two separate, you know, scenarios. Um, you know, I was the boys Sunday school teacher at your parents' church. Um, and you know, you were going through your breast cancer. Um, the same time I was attending the church. I didn't even know Jason. I have a picture of us after I'd cut my hair and dyed it. There's a picture of us together at church. Yeah. It is wild. Um, Jason and I went for a very obviously in dating terms, a long time before we even transitioned the boys into that. Um, and I remember I was very aware of what I posted at that time, you know, because I wanted to be respectful. Um, but it wasn't my story to tell um you, you know, from from Jason and I dating. I wasn't attending the church at the time. And I remember we were in Vegas and he had posted a picture uh of us together. And uh we were just wrapping dinner up and he said, Hey, um Sonia has just sent me a text asking, Were we dating? And I'm like, Oh, because again, that main word, that respect word, right? And you know, now looking back, I'm like, okay, yeah, you know, but it was always so funny to me because we have always made the boys our priority. And it we just jive so well together, regardless of whether it is a sporting event. We all set together. I remember I have to share um the first football game that we attended for major. And this was like first sports for me with this family, and so I'm on edge, right? This was definitely before medic medication. And I'm on edge, and I'm like, Jason, how who are we gonna go and sit with everybody? Or do we, you know, are we sitting with your parents? You know, and he's like, Maria, I don't know, this is my first football game too. And I'm like, oh wow, that has some strength behind that too, you know. And so it really, it's just a really cool concept that we can we get to do this together. You know, um I say a lot, especially in recruiting and training and mentoring my team, that I started this, you know, role, this position with this company because I wanted less hours, ironically, to start a family. And in its own way, I did. It's a full circle moment, which is really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

So I write about the text that I sent. And as soon as I sent that text to Jason, like, are you and Maria dating? I regretted it with my whole being. I was like, Sonia, you have no authority, you have no reason to be inquiring. This is none of your business. And I regretted it, but at the same time, this like smile just came on my face. I'm like, because again, divorce is hard, yeah. Divorce with children is harder, especially as the uh one of the parents or both of the parents start dating and getting serious and introducing others into the the family and the relationship. You just you don't know. Sure. And I knew that I wanted Jason to be happy and to move on, and he's a wonderful dad. And I knew eventually that he would, but in the back of your mind, you're always going, but who is this person be? And in my book, I write, is she gonna love Jesus? Yeah, is she gonna love my boys as much as I love my boys? Is she gonna be a good influence in their lives? And you check, you you check all the boxes. Um, you you coach and mentor them, you expose them to um deep thinking and a higher level of of operating, um, which I like because yes, I'm mom and Jason is dad. Yeah, so we kind of almost have this force field around us when we start talking. They're like, I just don't know. Right. I trust what my mom and dad are saying to me.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Right. Right. Know what they're talking about. Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

But with you, yeah, they come to you, they seek your counsel, they seek your guidance, um, they value your input. And it's kind of fun to see them have that um outlet within the family unit that's not mom and dad. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Because yeah, you're so much cooler than we are. It's because I don't have that force field around. So much cooler than mom and dad. It's funny to me that major is so like you have to have it planned out. He wants to know what to expect, right? Like his time. Um, Max, can't plan it. You might as well rumble up the piece of paper and throw it out.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

By the sea of your bridges.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

And so I've really, it's it's really become a J-O-V with me to make sure that him and I have those times. And it's so funny because it was two weeks ago, three weeks ago. I'm like, hey, you want to go write a sonic and get a slushy? And he's like, yes. And I'm like, this is the time, right? So it's funny to me how they're so different in in certain things, um, but so similar in others. They're teenage boys.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

You can reach their heart through their stomach any day. Any day. And and I use that a lot. Like, hey, let's go eat dinner and and one off it. Like, yeah, just me and one of the boys, vice versa. My mama heart melted one day, one Saturday. I was just wrapping up at the gym, and I never get phone calls from them. It's usually just text, short text, too. Right. But I noticed I had a missed call from Major, and I'm like, what's this about? So I called him back and he's like, Hey, what are you doing? It's like, I just finished up at the gym. It's like, you want to go get lunch?

unknown 57:02

Yes, I do, honey.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

I couldn't get home fast enough to get ready. Like, you don't want to go eat lunch. And but that's it, like being available and ready when they are ready. Yes. Um sitting and observing and listening and let them talk to where it opens the door for you to add context to a situation or add that guidance and guardrails that they may need rather than pounding it down their throat and yeah, hoping to strong arm them into the will that you want them and/or how you want them to behave. Um, as teenagers, it's very much being on the peripheral girl ready to jump in at any moment. And I'm not even hungry, but I am going to line. I am going to line. And that's just how parenting is hard work. Uh, you can find um how many people are on the earth. That's how many opinions you'll probably find on parenting. I certainly haven't mastered it, uh, but I am leading as a parent um much the way that I would lead a team in my professional world.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Uh, because now that they're teenagers, they're they're soon gonna be shifting into that um, you know, career mindset. And that's just how it feels good for me and natural for me to parent in a respectful, empathetic, and and kind way.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Yes, absolutely. So, Sonia, one of the most unique parts of this story is that our relationship didn't start with Jason, it started in church. So I was your boy's Sunday school teacher, like I was sharing earlier, when they were super small. I want to say Max was like two-ish, and then major was like five, six. Um, looking back now, does that feel significant to you? Significant and just overall. And overall.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

I I don't know if significant is the word I would use. I think it's peculiar and interesting that you were a part of their life at such an early age and and know them from that perspective. Like you know them as a toddler and as an elementary uh age student. Um, I also think that relationship is important now. The fact that you knew them then was present in their life. You weren't coming in as a stranger, right? Um, which helped with their transition. Because again, when kids are involved in divorce, it's not just mom and dad that are experiencing this, it's it's the kids as well. Yes. So how are they processing it? How are they internalizing it um in a healthy and productive way?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Um, and how is that impacting their life beyond what we can see? So I I do think it it's beneficial that you knew them.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

Do you think that the foundation of shared values helped us navigate what came later? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Absolutely. I grew up in church, I've attended the same church for 45 years. My dad is now the pastor of that church. Church has always been a staple in my life. Faith has been a staple in my life. I write about it in my book. There was a period of time where I kind of stepped back from my faith. Honestly, after divorce, I felt like I had messed up the entire recipe of life. Yeah. I went through a valley of just low self-esteem, self-doubt. Man, I've really messed this up, so I just might as well go all the way in. Set this place on fire. Um, but again, through age and wisdom, you look back and reflect, going, this was just a natural cadence of life, a natural cadence of emotion, yeah, learning to process emotion, gleaning the wisdom from lived experiences, and then bam, you get to midlife and you're like, think I've been okay, right? I I don't think I mess things up too bad. Right. Yeah. Uh so uh church faith has always been a foundation for me. Um, and it's something that I want to instill in my boys as well. Uh that teaching them that that there is a safe place for them to go. Yes. Um, even when they too feel like maybe they've messed up.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Sonia, there are women listening right now who are in a painful co-parenting situation, unfortunately. If you could speak directly to them, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

Um, again, I'm I'm not in the advice giving business because everyone's situation is unique. I know there are scary situations out there, I know there are um unfortunate situations out there. Um it's easy for me to say retreat inside. Turn everything inward to yourself. Yes. Um, because you are the only constant in your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Be as happy and healthy and productive as you possibly can be, and choose yourself over everyone else. Yeah. Not in a selfish way. What I mean by choosing yourself, it can often be the most unselfish decision we make because now as an individual, now as a mom, now as a leader, if I am happy and healthy, then I'm able to show up as an ultimate version of myself for those around me.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

And people feed off other people's energy.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Um, again, it's easy for me to say that because there are varying um sure circumstances and situations, but if you have the capacity, turn inward, yeah, work on yourself, change, and maybe change isn't the right word, but evolve yourself into the human that makes you happy and joyful. And that is just gonna ripple out to those around you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

Sure. I love that Sonia.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Cut the noise out, like turn the volume down. There's so much it down. Yeah. Um, this may get cut from the podcast, but it kind of goes a little bit more into choosing yourself and putting yourself first. You're gonna know that little twinge in your stomach. I think they call that your gut, right? You're gonna know, like, say you're scrolling social media and a picture pops up and you get that little say goodbye to social media. No one is forcing you to engage with content. No one is is forcing us to consume certain content, consume certain voices, certain messages. Right. Um that that takes a lot of discipline to be able to sit and take rapid fire from either social media, from in-person, from all of all of the things, right? It takes a lot of discipline to step away. Yeah. And it's hard. Yeah. It's hard when you have to make a decision to step away from something that or someone that yes, you love, or that you had this vision in your mind of what your life was gonna look like, and now it no longer your life is no longer matching up with the vision you had, and it's hard to step back from that and grieve it. Yeah, but grieve it, name the emotion, feel it, release it, choose yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:06

Yeah, I love that. Dun to dun. Lightning round.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

Oh, lightning rounds.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Are you ready? I don't know. All right, Sonia. Coffee or tea? Coffee, beach or mountains?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

It used to be beach. Now I'm preferring European cities.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Okay, I'm here for it. Morning quiet or evening calm.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

All of the above.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:29

All of it. All of the above. What's a leadership myth you don't believe anymore?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

I no longer subscribe to the hustle culture. Um, the culture where high performing, impactful leaders had to choose between being a mom, a dad, a partner, or work.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

I no longer subscribe to that. It's a fallacy. Don't buy into it. Um, there are moments in Our career where we do have to hustle. Yes. But we're not designed as human beings to run at that um run at a high stamina on repeat. I like to think about athletes, think about um the Olympics, think about uh the Super Bowl. These athletes aren't going at just top speed and performance every single day.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

Um, why do we as business professional professionals assume that we should be? Right. Um, there is so much value, and it took me a number of years to finally realize this. But my strength and my value as a leader is all within my headspace. Rest, stillness, pausing, giving yourself time to really do deep work around problems you're trying to solve, uh, relationships that you need to work on, um, goals that you want to achieve. Yeah. Uh you you've got to sit in that silence and sit in the stillness of that in order to really move the needle. Sure. And a lot of the hard work and leadership, a lot of the hard work and business success isn't on social media feeds. It sure isn't. It's not in the headlines. Yeah. It's not in the the series A, B's, and C's. Yeah. The success in business, this is just simply from my experience and perspective and what I have accomplished in my career. My success came through focused, discipline execution.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

It wasn't flashy and sexy. Right. So if you want to be a part of the hustle hustle culture, do it while you're young. Oh you don't have children. Because that's a whole thing, isn't it? Yeah, because by the time you get to my age, you're just tired. You're just tired. You're tired.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Uh, what is a risk that paid off?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Pausing my career for the first time. Yeah. And for the second time. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

Songin, before we close, what gap are you currently minding in your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Uh, the gap that I'm minding right now is um strength from a physical perspective, from a mental perspective, from an emotional perspective. Um, how strong can I make myself? Um, so being intentional when I'm in the gym, I I'm not focused on uh vanity metrics anymore, if you will. Yeah, I guess at a certain age we kind of get there. I've been working on my makeup a little bit more, like playing around with it, like wearing lipstick. It's so much fun. It's so much fun. I did not know that maybe it could be this fun. Here I am. Like I want to do my makeup. But strength, yeah, especially as um I'm aging. Um, how do I visualize the second half of my life? Uh, what do I want my body to be equipped to do? Yeah. Um, so that is where I'm I'm really minding the gap right now. It's all around strength, physical, mentally, emotionally. Um, just how strong can I be going into this second half of my life? Um, because my boys need me differently. Yeah. Um, they're going to be embarking on their own lives soon, yeah. Um, which means they're going to need me differently even more. Um, and what do I have visualized for that time in my life? Sure. And I want to be strong and I want to be ready for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

Cheers, Sonia.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

You did it.