EP. 1 Patrick Montgomery

In this episode we have on lion hunter Patrick Montgomery! Patrick started from scratch with his dogs, with just 2 pups and lots of foot work, he has some fine hounds. Make sure to check out his socials!

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/pmonte3006/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@pmonteoutdoors7644

Check us out!

https://shop.litehounds.com/lite_hounds/shop/home

FB: https://www.facebook.com/people/Lite-Hounds/61558702166060/

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/litehounds/

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

All right, everybody. We're back with another episode of Don't Run with Lighthounds. It's going to be a little different this time around. This is going to be our first uh I guess our first podcast for Lighthounds solo. Um 60 Dollars Media got us going, and uh now we're gonna kind of break off and and be underneath them, but it's not gonna be a segment anymore, it's gonna be our own uh personal podcast. So uh today we got Mr. Patrick Montgomery out of Colorado. Uh he runs lines and all kinds of stuff. And uh we're gonna we're gonna get into it with him. How are you doing, Mr. Montgomery?

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Man, I'm doing great. Good to good to hear from you guys. How are you guys doing?

SPEAKER_06 0:45

Cannot complain. We had a good day in my neck of the woods.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Oh yeah. Doing good, doing good day, great day.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Good. Did you guys uh did you guys get to get out and do some hunting over there?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Uh not today.

SPEAKER_06 0:58

So y'all didn't get anything, did y'all do? How are y'all doing today?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Working. Let's hear what you do. I know what you had to use.

SPEAKER_06 1:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14

No, we went to a little we snuck into a honey hole today and just got amongst them. It was good. We ended up with eleven, should have had should have had twelve.

SPEAKER_06 1:23

We had one break at the end, we didn't get caught, but all in all, man, it was uh from the time we got there to the time we were finished, it was running and gunning and all the every every dog we had found and made its own hog by itself at some point throughout the day. So it was a it was a good day, man.

SPEAKER_07 1:40

I cannot complain at all.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, that sounds sounds like a good day of of dog work anyway.

SPEAKER_07 1:48

Yeah, and and for me, I've got a bunch of young dogs, so it was it's really cool to, you know, things are you know, at moments I'm like, what are you doing? And then the next moment I'm like, gosh damn, they're doing it, you know, and uh and uh like with one female I have, she's she's two and she's you know, she is she's doing it. And uh they they ran through and she broke off on one on her own and and uh by herself went like a mile and a half and and bait up a nice you know, 170 pound sal you know, and ended up we were hunting at the back side of this property and uh the front side is is a sand pit. And uh hell she baited the pig up about a hundred yards from a bunch of bulldozers and loaders and stuff in a in a briar thicket right by all the construction workers. So it was pretty funny.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Yeah. Yeah, it gets can uh like we say out here, it can get a little western sometimes.

SPEAKER_06 2:47

Mm-hmm. That's a fact. So so tell us about yourself, Patrick. Tell us tell us where you're at and uh you know, tell us what you do.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Um well, you know, I'm currently I'm in uh I'm in Colorado. I live in Littleton, which is on the southwest side of Denver. Um I live uh kind of in a little community uh that kind of sits off to the side from the main city. So it feels like I live in a little bit of a smaller town, but I'm still, you know, I'm still living in a neighborhood. Uh you know, I've got I've got hounds and and I raise them and and we hunt and and we live with uh you know I've got I think I've got six neighbors that that touch my same fence, you know, on my on my backyard. So it's kind of kind of close quarters to be raising dogs.

SPEAKER_06 3:40

How many dogs do you got to have?

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Um I've got I've got four uh four dogs. I got one red bone and then three um, you know, they're kind of blue chick walker mixes, you know, maybe a little bit of like English blue tick blood in them.

SPEAKER_06 3:57

When uh how how long have you been messing with dogs?

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Um, well, you know, uh technically I guess I grew up uh training black labs with my dad. Uh we raised uh field trial dogs, duck hunting dogs. Uh we used a lot for for pheasant hunting. So that was kind of my background. Um I didn't get my first hounds, you know, for myself until 2013. So maybe a 12, 13 years I've been running my own dogs.

SPEAKER_06 4:27

Yeah, yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_07 4:32

And I started off you got straight into hounds with like um you got straight into running like the same particular uh bred dog?

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Yeah, you know, I just got um got lucky. I I've I've been a professional hunting guide my whole life. You know, I've been hunting, you know, deer, elk, antelope, turkeys, those kind of things. Um I was living in northern New Mexico for a bit, uh working on a big ranch there, uh place called the Lodge at Chama. Um and it's kind of you know, it's uh elk hunting mecca, if you will. There's a lot of outfitters that operate out of there, and I just got to be got to be good friends with uh uh some of the other guides around there, and this one particular uh particular friend of mine was up there from uh Washington, right on the Washington, Oregon border. And um, you know, we had done some how some you know hunting with uh with another outfitter down there. That's kind of how we both had kind of got introduced to line hunting with dogs. And anyway, he had a he had a walker dog up there, and somehow he ended up breeding her with a Cameron hound and um blue and pups, and you know, he just called me one one day out of the blue and asked if I was interested in getting a couple of my own. You know, finally at that point, you know, I I'd settled down in one spot, you know, where I felt, you know, felt good about you know raising dogs and and not being on the move for a little while. So yeah, I had him send me a couple couple dogs down.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

I said, give me the most blue looking ones you have. And he sent uh a little boy, little girl, you know, down for me.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

And those were my first two pups. I started off with uh Geronimo and Bell.

SPEAKER_06 6:19

So what was your what was your process with those first two dogs?

SPEAKER_07 6:23

Like what did how did you how did you get started and and how did that work?

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Well, you know, it was uh it was a whole lot of trial and error, uh, to be honest with you, starting off. Um, you know, when I first had before I even had my first two hounds, my MO was I would go out on snow days with no dogs at all, and I would just go look for tracks. And if I found a track, I would uh go and I'd kind of go out to one of the main roads someplace, and sooner or later I'd find a houndsman kind of deal with those hounds because I wanted to go you know watch dogs and so I would tell those guys that hey you guys interested in running. I've got we want to go run a track, but we just want to go.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

You know, some of them were cool with that and some of them weren't. And the ones that were cool with it got to run tracks and the ones that were uh, you know, I guess too too prideful or air didn't didn't get track.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah, that's that's pretty good to do.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Yeah, so when I first uh when I first started off with my first uh first hound, it was um yeah, it was a a learning experience for sure. I didn't have a whole lot of help. You know, there was one or two guys that um you know, as my dogs got older, you know, they started letting me run my run my dogs with theirs a little bit, but it was pretty much just, you know, me and the two dogs and and kind of figuring it out. That's the best way.

SPEAKER_07 8:14

I mean it's the it's not the shortest way, but I think it's the best way in my opinion.

unknown 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Yeah, and I I think ultimately it was the best way because what it forced me to do is spend a lot of time with my dogs following tracks, just walking, you know, spending time together with them. And that's kind of become one of my main, you know, keys to success, I think, is just a lot of time in the woods with my dogs, you know. I try to start getting them out when they're super young, you know, ten weeks old. Um, I want them to be in the woods enough to where nothing is really new and they're not distracted by anything, so that when they do come across a lion scent, they absolutely know what it is and the game we're playing, and there's there is no distractions. They can stay focused on that. It doesn't matter about foxes, coyotes, raccoons, you know, those kind of things are all all become secondary.

SPEAKER_07 9:15

Yeah. No, I've I've uh I I can totally see how that obviously it's it's not the easiest, but I think at the end of the day you're gonna learn more about your dogs, you know, by by being there than than setting your dogs down with a pack of other dogs and then you know who knows who's doing what at that point in time. You know what I mean? You've got finished dogs that are gonna be doing stuff, and who knows, your dog might have cut the track or or leading the race or whatever, and it's kind of hard to tell sometimes on who's doing what when you've got a whole pack out there.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

No, and that's absolutely you know correct. At the end of the day, I want I want all of my dogs to be able to follow their own track, catch their own lion. Um, I don't want just packed dogs, you know, and that's just I guess maybe a different philosophy in mind than some other lion hunters. I know a lot of guys that have great packs and have great dogs, but you know, that's the way that they do it. You know, they they raise their their their pups and they kind of put them in with the pack and you know, and they just you know either learn or they don't. Um where I'm kind of I do because I think it has to do with my background in training labs where you know we design a bunch of drills, you know, that we run them through. I've kind of did done that with with my hounds. You know, I have you know different activities that we do with a specific training purpose in mind, you know, where there's no animals involved, you know, it's just you know, kind of very similar to training labs for for duck hunting or field trials, I would say.

SPEAKER_07 10:59

Yeah. But to me it's like it's almost the the bird dog stuff to me is I mean I to m it seems like it's it's almost like the difference in between like military training and and just going out and doing random stuff. So like you you can train a bird dog. I mean, forgive me if I'm wrong, but year round if you've got the the time and the place and and the stuff, you know, if if you're training a lion hound, like you've gotta be out in the woods and be on get on lion tracks, right? And and with the bird dog stuff, to me, it's like you're you i every evening you can go out and and do line retrieves and all those things. I'm I'm not the most versed on it, but uh you know I have had a few bird dogs. It's sure it's just a it's a whole different animal, but I've I've always been curious. I've got a buddy now that uh that I run sighthounds with, and uh he's got a background in retriever stuff. And it's funny watching his little quirks and ticks and things that he does while we're out, and you can totally put two and two together, like oh he you know, he used to he used to run retrievers and and do and do trials and all those things, and it it's kind of funny to see because it it makes perfect sense when you're out and about. You know, he's very very uh precise and very um uh uses the same commands and does all these things and it's it's it's funny to see that stuff bridge over to running like hounds or or sight hounds like we're doing. You know, it's it's it's a whole different operation, but if you can bridge the gap and and uh and bring the two together, you know, and that's what kind of what it sounds like to me, like what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Yeah, no, that's um you know, and that's what I you know is interesting is that you can, you know, use aspects from you know different breeds and different types of hunting and incorporate them you know into into what you're doing. And um I I feel like the more that we do that, you know, borrow and steal from from other sports and you know add them into our own, you know, the more rounded we'll be, you know, just in in general, and the the more rounded my dogs will be. You know, that my dogs, because I do live in the city, you know, they also, you know, they they have to be polite. They have to not bark in the backyard, you know, they have to handle well outside my yard in the front yard, you know. I need them to come and call and I keep them in the garage is where they've got their kennels, you know, and that's where they they sleep at night. So um for me it's a necessity, you know, that they, you know, act polite, behave, handle well. Um, some people that live a little bit more in the country and don't have those same, you know, those requirements and stipulations going on around them, you know, might not have to have that same type of you know, handle on their dogs and you know, to each their own, it's fine.

SPEAKER_07 14:04

No, that's a that's a guarantee. I mean, I know I have several friends that live out and dogs are barking all damn day long and you know, hell, even in my house, like I've got a few that are just want to bark more than others, you know, but you know, we're kind of I got fifteen acres and they're you know the neighbors are I've got two neighbors and you know, they're pretty decent a ways away. But uh I don't I don't think I'm pestering them too much, but I'm I know they hear the dogs, you know. And sure. And it's been it's been recently. There's just I've been bringing in a bunch of new dogs over the last two years and uh and some of them just like to talk more than others and you can I mean I've I I swear I've got a puppy right now but I I've I've never had a bark collar and I bought a bark collar for this dog specifically. And uh he is I've got to I've gotta figure it out. I'm pretty sure that the the collar will like uh transition from one to ten, say it goes from the lowest shock to the highest shock the the more they bark, right? Well I think I just need to put it on hammer down the immediate second he barks because he barks at a very low octave repeatedly. And it's almost like he's figured out how to bark and just barely get shot. I don't know. I I'm pretty sure that's how it's working because he's got uh just a a very steady hoo, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. And it's like, dude, what are you doing? And and I and I saw it. So last week we went on a little aw dad hunt and uh for the we we took a bunch of kids out and uh one of the boys made a fast shot on the aw dad, hit it in the butt, and you know, broke broke him down, but was still alive when we got on the track. Well I put two young dogs down, and this was his first live animal to bait. And uh when he got when he got there, he's still doing a oh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. I was like, talk to him, let's go, like let's go. And I'm like, he's thinking he's gonna get shocked, I think. Like I think he he knows to stay on that lower octave. And I like I said, I may be wrong on how that collar works, but I'm I'm pretty sure I've got it on that setting. So he's like, it's not a full ripping bay like the other dog next to him. It's like he's like, Oh, I I know if I can bark this this quiet, it'll it'll be okay. I'll only get shocked a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Sounds like a pretty smart dog to me.

SPEAKER_07 16:29

Yeah, he's he he's he's he's made right. I'm I'm pretty excited about him, but it's just funny. I'm like, but he's he's also very freaking annoying. So it's like, you know, you you uh you give and take on a thing. So I totally I totally get how having a handle and stuff like that will pay off, you know, especially for your situation, you know. And uh a lot of people get away with not having to worry about that. Like most people I run with, there's no sit, stay, come, you know, any of that stuff. It's you know, get ahead, caught hog, or you know, it's dead or whatever it is, and then you know, going about your business. It's there's not they're not just a whole lot of the obedience type stuff, because sure you know really at the end of the day, you don't you you can get away with not having it for what we do, you know.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Yeah, no, and absolutely. And you know, the other thing that it's good for me um is uh I live just on the outsirts outskirts of Denver, so I do a lot of a lot of hunting on foot. I like to hike a lot of trails um here in the foothills that are also used by a you know a lot of other people. You know, I've got mountain bikers out here, I've got you know just normal hikers, I've got other people with dogs, I've got it people on horseback doing equestrian stuff. And you know, most of the time I'm trying to get out at daylight, and I'm usually back in, you know, unless I've got something going. Um if if we go out and we don't strike anything, but you know, I'm usually out of there before a lot of people show up. But it's also nice to, you know, when I'm on the trail and hiking and passing people to be able to, you know, keep my dogs under control, you know, if there's a horse walking by or if there's mountain bikers coming up, you know, I can turn them back to me real quick and have them sit down and let them pass. And it's they said for me, it's just uh just a necessity.

SPEAKER_07 18:22

Oh that makes perfect sense. While we're on that subject, what are so what are the rules up there in Colorado? I know I'm I'm I'm pretty sure there's a season and and all that stuff. So what are the what are your regulations and and like uh where can y'all hunt? Is it wilderness? Is it national land? What is it?

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Yeah, so I mean obviously um there's always a lot of myths around the you know the cougar hunting and the mountain lion hunting, people that don't know much about it, you know, think that they're endangered or going extinct and they can't believe that we get to hunt them, you know, which is is not the case at all. You know, there's uh actually quite a few mountain lions. There's there's not a shortage of them by any means, and it's because um, at least in our state up to this point, you know, Colorado Parks and Wildlife has done a very good job of of managing the species. You know, the biologists have a pretty good handle on the number um as much as you can with mountain lions, and they they have the state divided up into different units, and they combine four or five of these units into an area, and then they kind of set quotas. So there's a a certain amount of mountain lions that they want harvested every year, um, and that's the quota, and it's going to be different for different areas and different units. Uh, the way that the season works is it usually opens uh the first Monday after the fourth big game rifle season. So we're not out there running while there's any big game hunts going on. We are allowed to hunt public land, uh, national forest, BLM land. We can also hunt on private property. Um obviously, you know, we're not supposed to, you know, go on to other people's property or let dogs out on private property. You know, that's gonna still be, you know, a big no-no. Um so that can be you know a little bit tricky, you know, here around the Denver area, there's some little subdivisions and communities and stuff that um right in the middle of some national forest that you know sometimes these cats that's where they like to go because that's where all the tame deer live, you know, that's where they hunt. Um, you know, they you've got these little islands in the middle of the national forest where everybody's got, you know, a bunch of pet deer, and you know, the lions know that, and that's where they they go to hunt. And you know, some of these communities are are actually pretty good about, you know, if they've got you know cats walking through there that they don't really want there because they've got pets, they've got horses and goats and you know, dogs and all that other stuff. So sometimes, you know, we've got some good agreements where like the the association, the homeowners association, you know, will sometimes give us a call and ask us if we can, you know, come help, you know, run run a line out of their subdivision. Most of the time they don't want us to kill them, um, you know, which is fine, you know, but we can go in there and you know and and just help educate uh educate a cat that it's not a good idea to keep coming into these subdivisions. And you know, for me that's really a big primary purpose of of why it is that I'm a houndsman and and where I hunt and why I do it is I hunt there with the specific purpose of trying to keep these cats educated that people, dogs, pets, joggers, mountain bikers are not food sources, or they shouldn't be anyways. And I feel fairly confident that in doing that in the past ten years, um I but we haven't had at least in my area, I mean I I don't know of any mountain lions attacks on people. Um, you know, once in a while you know, you might hear something about a goat or something. So I think I contribute to that. Maybe not.

SPEAKER_07 22:04

I might just be making it up, but um that that's uh a lot of times if I uh you know I post a bunch of videos on my page and I and I try to keep a good uh mindset on what I'm posting, you know, uh uh sometimes and I believe there'll be a a video that's a little more gross, gross, gruesome or whatever, you know, but I've always I've had people always, you know, the lions are a big deal for people. The big cats are it hits people in the fields, you know, and uh I'm yeah I usually pay really close attention to those posts because it's you know I'm not I'm not the guy with the lion hounds, but I'm trying to speak for the guy, you know, and and a lot of guys all tag and some some guys don't even care. They just send me cool videos and they're they're good with me posting them but I you know it's it's I I try to stay on top of those and and my my main uh I guess argument per se would be like these like most of these how the most of these lions aren't getting killed like they're getting driven out of suburban areas and it's trying to educate them to keep be fearful of humans and dogs. It's not it's not so much uh you know running and killing every line they see like a a lot of these are nuisance types animals that they have no fear of humans or pets or any of those things. Like I mean as we've all seen in California over the last couple of years like their their uh human attacks are way up compared to Colorado or anywhere else where you can still run hounds, you know and it's and and most most of those you know people that are coming the negative stuff, they don't have a damn idea on the planet. So it's like I uh I try to go out of my way on those type scenarios to educate the best that I can with the little knowledge that I have. Like I I I know what you're up to and and like like you just said like that's kind of that's kind of your MO that's what you're after. And uh it's it can be a it's a struggle with you know anytime you post anything it doesn't matter what it is you know people are always gonna have a negative mindset towards houndsmen and stuff and you gotta be cognizant of what you post and and all those things but you know I I kinda like posting something as bait and then uh and then I try to educate with comments that come in and I've had a bunch of you know a a a handful of just it's like talking to a liberal you know ridiculous that you you you're you're not gonna ever be able it's like talking to a brick wall you're never gonna be able to change your mind. But a handful I have, you know I've been able to conversate I've had people message me and uh I I'll go out of my way on those specifically to try to, you know, sway their mindset on what they think they're seeing when you know they don't have a damn idea what they're looking at. You know, they're just kind of emotionally looking at a video and uh I I that's kind of one of my passions right now with the stuff that I do post is like okay you know this is a this is a borderline video that shouldn't should or should not be posted. Now I'm not gonna post any videos of cats getting shot or blown out of a tree or anything like that. But you know a lion treed with ten dogs below it, you know, ruffles feathers but it it's also a it's also a chance to to educate folks.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

So I'll tell you what I'm saying yeah you know and that's it's it's a fine line because at the end of the day we don't want to be ashamed of our sport. I mean that's what we do and that's what and that's part of it. And we as houndmen we know what's going on but there's some of that stuff that it's not necessary to show the public um it's it's there's not really an educational purpose behind it. You know so there's some of the stuff that okay it's we can still be cheap to the sport without having to go overboard with with what we share. You know at the end of the day you're also you're never going to be able to make everybody happy and nobody's gonna ever agree you know as houndsmen I'm not gonna agree with everything that another houndsman does but you know they're his dogs he can run them the way that he wants to he can post what he wants to but there's also there's gonna be you know you have to be able to accept the consequences and take responsibility for that as well. You know so just you got to kind of balance it all out and you know try to try to make the best decisions to share our sport in an educational way. I I too have had some of those conversations and you know where people just arguing back and forth and people will send me private messages hey man just leave it alone you're never gonna win this argument. You're right I might not win that argument but in the thread I can lay down enough key bullet point stuff that people that are following it you know that are not even actively engaged in the argument can still pick it up and and learn you know and that's part of what I'm trying to do is just you know trying trying to educate people and you know keep this the sport of us uh that that we like and love you know alive.

SPEAKER_07 27:31

Yeah no there's there's thousands of people that are reading comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation like I very rarely am going to comment on a video that I do not like or I uh don't agree with or anything but I will go through the comments and see what other people are saying about it. And you know most you know I I still like to say the majority of people are good and and and want to see the good in things and we'll go through and read your replies to a video or mine or whatever and uh oh well that makes sense or you know I I've had I can't tell you how many old ladies have messaged me why are you killing those coyotes? They didn't do nothing to you and I was like oh they killed three chickens last week oh why have chickens too I mean I don't blame you there. You know and it's like immediately it changes and I'm sorry for even messaging you like it's it's crazy. Like your whole entire mindset changes immediately when you when you hit the same level of of whatever they're doing that oh oh wait we're we're kind of the same people like you have chickens at your house or you raise goats or whatever you know whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

And uh like I said somewhere yeah yeah but so there's definitely a good lesson in there that we're probably all more more alike than we are different.

SPEAKER_07 29:10

Yeah that's kind of I like I said I've had I've had other hounds men message me and be like dude why would you post that and I'm like well number one it's legal and number two like it's it's it's a chance to uh educate folks if they do send some you know and then I have guys that send me some rant shit and I'm like why won't you post that I'm like dude aren't I not posting that shit like here's a trait like that that's too much. You know what I mean? Like a coyotes getting stretched out or bears getting you know just stupid stuff that should not be on. Like you know what happens I mean could you imagine if I posted Oh my God.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Imagine if I posted a video of you know a a sixty seventy pound kitten getting stretched out by eight hound dogs. You know that's not a thing.

SPEAKER_07 30:00

That's nothing to be proud of that's that's not a that's nothing that if if you're in Europe if you're proud of that then I mean but I more power to you but that's that's kind of ridiculous and you know I I've you know and I've seen a bunch where it's like God almighty like why would you do that? And uh anyways I I I always try to I don't know fend for myself because I do I'll post a handful of stuff. I mean I've had some like pretty well known townsmen slash famous people message me telling me I shouldn't do that. And I'm like man like it's legal and I understand the what we're doing but I'm it's also it's a there's a it's there's I have morals. I I you know I don't I'm not like you know I'm not gonna post the other twenty videos I got sent today of of other things you know it's it's there's kind of a I don't know there's a fine line. I don't know where the hell it's at but I try to I try to deviate around as best I can.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

Yeah and and I don't know where where that line is either I mean at the end of the day you are correct. I mean it it's sometimes you've got to you know start a conversation you know and it that's that's one way you know of doing it but you know it's just the more negative we put out there the more negative you know we're gonna get back from you know through the same media and stuff like that. So I just no I just try to you know show my support you know the main thing that I'm trying to show is the love that we have for the dogs. Um and that's what it's about you know everybody thinks it's oh you just why do you want to kill those cats? Man I don't want to kill those cats you know be honest with you. I mean dead cats don't leave tracks. Yeah you know we we keep a lot of them I keep keep most of them alive. You know I catch this year I've caught you know uh I don't know I think like we've caught 15 cats this winter since the beginning of December and you know four of them three of them actually were real good toms you know 150 pound plus cats and you know we didn't kill any of them and then the quick people said well why didn't you kill them I said man I the the guys that I had with me they just you know really thought that they it was a neat experience and they didn't feel like they needed to to kill that cat you know and and I'm good with that because you know then I get to go catch them again.

SPEAKER_07 32:30

Yeah. Well this there's no doubt. Like it it's a little different than what we do down here with the pigs and stuff but I totally totally you know occasionally I'm like man why'd we kill that hundred and fifty pound boar like he's gonna be a good boar in a couple years but like most of the guys we're hunting for are nuisance type guys and if they knew we were letting go of pigs they'd be like what you know you're not coming back. Yeah you guys you guys got a different mission down there. Yeah no it's a it's a it's a lost cause uh to an extent where I mean we you try to do the best you can but it's uh we're fighting a losing battle down here.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Well and and sometimes you know I'll get calls from from landowners you know specifically that they have a cat on their property and they want it gone. You know so there is absolutely a management um part of it as well and if that's what the landowner says it's his land he's trying to protect his livestock for whatever he's got going on there you know and that's what we'll do. I'll say here you know I'm not gonna burn my tag on it but if you want to go get a tag we'll come out there and we'll hunt your property and if we catch a cat on it you can make the decision yourself about what you want to do with it.

SPEAKER_07 33:47

You know that's that's the way that goes yeah no there's no doubt um I was gonna circle back so whenever you you talked about your first dog and you got started um how long before you caught your own line with your two dogs yeah no that's an interesting story in itself um but I would say that we probably I bet we followed about fifteen sixteen cats by ourselves and by followed uh normally the way that I start my dogs you know trailing cats is the first time we're on a trail anyways I'll I will keep them leashed and most of the time we're following a track in the snow so I can see the track.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

So I'll keep them leashed as we walk down the track and as they start to stick their nose down in each track more and more, you know, they have a visual there and so they gradually start doing that. And as they build excitement start pulling on the leash you know then I'll clip them off the leash when and let them follow the trail. Normally when they first start off when they're young pups you know I'm trying to have them able to do this by at least my dogs I want them to be able to be trailing by the time they're five, five and a half months old. So I'll um clip them and they just don't have the confidence yet to really send it, you know, so they'll go out you know maybe a hundred yards and then they'll come back down the trail and check in and you kind of encourage them and get them to go and they'll and they'll do that. So I did that with my first two hounds for probably about three months I would say three four months probably about 15 cats and each time you know they got a little bit better went a little bit further and then you know at the end of their first season so I started training them really in January so by April of that year they were capable of catching their own cat. Now the first cat that I thought we were going to catch and I mean I I know that they were just about to tree it I had another houndsman come and dump his dogs cut me off and dump all his dogs in on my race and and and ruined it for me but that I still consider you know that they would have had their their first tree at that point in time. And then the next year the following season the first cat we ran uh they did tree that one completely all by themselves I gotta I gotta hear more about this.

SPEAKER_07 36:38

So did he dump on a track that he cut or did he dump on the sound of y'all ear hounds or how'd that work?

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Oh no oh yeah no it was dirty super dirty I found the found the track um I knew there was another road up where the cat was walking to so I had enough time that I went ahead and drove up there ran that whole road and the cat hadn't crossed the road yet so I went back to went back to where it had crossed the road sat there till legal shooting time you know we can't turn our dogs loose until uh uh half hour before sunrise so I had to wait till legal shooting time um when that came you know I turned my dogs out and man they took off you know good you know they were they were doing good so uh I just put on my backpack I started following them on foot uh when you're especially when you're trading puffs you've got to be on the trail with those dogs um just to help them sort out you know any little mess and also it's a confidence booster you know they're gonna come back and if they don't bump into you you're gonna create dogs that that just want to come back to the truck all the time. So um yeah so just hiking behind the dogs and they were headed towards that other road you know we were into it about two miles and they were kind of veering up to that road and I could hear this other truck coming down the road. I could hear him coming hear him coming and then I he he stopped and I figured he stopped where that cat had come up and crossed the road so it had probably been just I mean cross within the half hour or so of him driving up there maybe less so he got to the track and I know he got out of the truck had to look at the track and could hear my dogs. I could hear his truck I could hear him turn his truck off so he heard my dogs coming and next thing I know my dogs aren't barking anymore and they're stopped on the road and then I hear his dogs barking you know and so I'm getting pretty livid at this point. I figured this I said this some bitch drove up and dropped my down the track, was looking at it heard my dogs coming caught my dogs let his dogs go and to be fair enough he did let my dogs go about five minutes later and they you know went up there and they were all at the tree you know together when when we got there and it was a guy that I had known you know one of the guys that I had found tracks for brought in with his dog so that he could catch the cat and you know he tried to play it off like well I didn't hear any dogs I didn't know I just turned my dogs out on the track you know Patrick you know but that's not what happened that's not what happened at all but whatever it's all good. Wow for the dog did you so he turned your dogs loose before you got up there and let them go for the tree or yeah yeah so he let his dogs get about a five minute head start I mean they they already almost had that cat treed but he let him get about a five yeah yeah they were running it you know that cat had been jumped and was running across the road and you know and so yeah he let his dogs get about five minutes out and then let my dogs go again and you know I didn't have my it sounded like they all kind of grouped it together and I think they probably treated it all together. Um so it was good. It was good training for my dogs next time I turned them out on a track they caught it so you know I'm not gonna not gonna cry too much. But yeah I was livid in the moment.

SPEAKER_07 40:49

Mm hot So did you did you meet him at the cross at the where they where he cut the track or did you meet him at the tree?

SPEAKER_03 40:58

No I meet him met him at the tree. Oh shit Yeah so so I kinda snuck through the woods and that's what I wanted to know if he knew what he was doing or didn't know what he was doing. So I kinda snuck through the woods and snuck up there and I saw him and he kept looking back over his shoulder down the trail. Uh-huh I mean obviously my dogs were there at that point in time so he knew you know he's he knew that's now that he now did he have a hunter with him was he outfitting? Uh no he wasn't uh to my knowledge you know he was not an outfitter um he did have a hunter with him um and that was the main reason why it probably wasn't why we probably weren't rolling around in the snow.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

Yeah yeah um I just you know it wasn't worth it for me especially I didn't want to didn't want to embarrass him too much so it was all is what it is you know he knows he he knew he knew yeah he was he was getting this was a money deal I I would imagine I mean that was uh here's a hot track well let's pretend like my dog finished it and blah blah blah and he gets paid no that's exactly what it was yeah yeah yeah that's what it was they knew it was a good Tom you know they were trying to kill it I I wasn't trying to kill it I didn't care didn't matter to me so but that's that's how it went down I'll be down yeah that's uh that's a hell of a first tree for the puff yeah right huh that's what I was meaning is about I said man you spoiled it they were just about to catch this cat if you had to put your uh lousy mutts into the race and ruin it for me I can only imagine I'm I'm just picturing that in my head I'd be like you you you've got your young dogs you've been just following them for miles and miles and miles for months and months and then finally get hundreds of miles and that bullshit happens oh boy oh Lord yeah that's a whole different animal up there like you know most of the stuff I hunt's private land like we're not gonna run any other hog hog hunters or deer trackers or whatever so yeah I can oh yeah yeah competition oh yeah competition is stiff especially here on the front range I've always said that if they were to do a show you know maybe hey may maybe we can work something out here but if they were to do a show like Deadliest Catch but just follow different houndsmen, you know, in a certain area you know where the competition is is tight and just film everything that goes on because

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Yeah, no, there's been lots of dirt baths out here, I promise you. You know, where houndsmen will we'll get into it over a track and you know, who was there first and blah blah blah. And you know, sometimes these cats will walk, you know, fifteen miles in a night. So if it's doing that and it crosses two or three different roads, there's a chance that two or three different packs of hounds can end up following the same cat all spread out by four or five miles.

SPEAKER_05 44:31

Wow.

unknown 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

That can get interesting in a tree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

And now I have heard here here where we live at, and and I have it's it's on a property not far from ours, but now this this one guy really wasn't supposed to be where he was at. But when he got to the bay, his dogs were there and there were some other dogs there. And then the guy that was actually trespassing was you know, was asking him what his damn problem was and why he was there. You know, and if they were actually on a little piece of public land, that's the only thing that really saved them because uh like here where we live at, it's everything is private. I mean, like we can't hardly hunt much public land at all for anything. And uh not with dogs anyway, but uh you can squirrel hunt and cook hunt a little bit, but that's about it. But but any everything else here is uh standard ground law we have in effect. And so if you're on private land and somebody else, there's been a lot of people that have been shot a lot, a ton of and they're and they're at somebody's gate, and you're like, yeah, you try to walk in my gate. And they're like, You start with a 30-out fix from 400 yards. You know, and I damn, bro, calm down. But you know, I've always wondered that. I I'm sorry getting out of conflict, but you know how I am on the talk anyway, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

No, it's I it's always it's interesting enough.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Yeah, I it's a good one, Ricky, as well. We went to Michigan coyote hunting with some hounds, and it was like that. There were there were people every everybody was pretty nice, except for the guy that was a couple of guys we were with. They were one of them was a jerk for real and hated everybody and had a vendetta against everybody for whatever reason. But uh I I found it kind of amazing at points of how everybody could work together when they wanted to.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

You know, and there's like and it's it's kind of like deadly's catch. All those captains, they're all buddies and they're all, you know, friends until it's time to go to work. That's right. You know, and that's kind of the way it is out here. We can all share pictures on Instagram and videos, and you know, we for the most part get along until all of a sudden we're in the exact same area trying to catch the same cat. You know, then it's kind of every man, woman, and child for himself. But there's also times too where, you know, if I'm by myself, you know, and I don't have a hunter, you know, and I'll talk to some other houndsmen that you know he's only out there, you know, by himself. We've each got three or four dogs, we're allowed to run eight in a pack in Colorado. So yeah, sometimes we'll t just team up and just go catch a cat and you know everything's fine. It's what changes everything is when it's a big Tom. And those are what people are you know wanting to kill. You know, we don't we don't kill females generally speaking. Um but when there's a big Tom, you know, in the area or or coming through, yeah, he's he's got some heat. There's there's people looking for him for sure.

SPEAKER_07 47:42

Oh, that's too funny. I mean I I I'll laugh from here because it's it's uh I I you could I could just see it going down in the three foot of snow on the side of a mountain. Oh yeah. Two guys rolling down the hill beating the shit out of each other. Oh yeah, I I promise it's happened.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

I promise.

SPEAKER_07 48:12

That was your first that was like close to the first tree, right? And then you're saying you uh for the very next season, did you did you inherit any more dogs between then and there, or did you still have the same two?

SPEAKER_03 48:27

Yeah, nope, I still had the same two. Um the next next year, the first day of the season, um it didn't really have any snow on the ground, actually, you know, pretty much cut they caught their first for sure solo cat mostly on dry ground. Um I just badass. Yeah, I was just hiking with them down this major canyon, you know, where cats, you know, cross, and we got lucky enough that we found a deer kill down there. That line had just fed on it that night. So uh they were able to find the out on that. And yeah, got that cat tree within, you know, probably about a mile and a half of that of that deer kill. And you know, like they've been doing it their whole lives, you know. It's just one of one of those things, especially with these Yeah, but it's it's when it clicks, it's literally almost an overnight thing. You know, they they struggle and struggle, you know, for maybe twenty cats and then they do one right by themselves and they catch the next ten in a row.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

Yeah. I've seen it. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:35

So um you what do you prefer? I mean, if you're gonna go cast out, you want you want it to be dry or do you want it to be snow on the ground?

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Um for me if I'm gonna be hiking and free casting, then I I prefer it to be just dry all the way across. Um, you know, if it's gonna be snow, you know, I'm we'll usually if there's enough snow to cut tracks on, you know, I'm gonna be driving just 'cause I can cover a little bit more territory. Uh but this year, you know, we haven't had much snow, so I've done done a lot of hiking. Um and normally what I try to do is I try to find I don't like to walk down a road and then have to come back the same way. So I'll try to plan loops, you know. Um and if I can find a trail or something, you know, here a hiking trail that makes a big about an eight to ten mile loop, um that's what I prefer, prefer to hike. Um sometimes, you know, even this year I've been just uh we rode our dogs quite a bit. So, you know, after doing it for 15 years, you know, and you you get to know where the crossings are where these cats, you know, tend to cross. You know, what whatever reason a cat comes to an area one time, you can almost bank on it that you know there's gonna be more cats that travel through that same area. So once you figure those areas out, actually, you know, hunting dry ground is not as difficult because I can load my dogs up, drive down the road to an area, let my dogs out and road them for a mile, you know, just through uh an area that I know cats cross. If they don't pick something up, I can throw them back in the box, drive, you know, five miles down the road and let them out in another area, you know, for a mile. And I just like to, you know, let them work in front of the truck, you know, trucks only going, you know, three or four miles an hour down a little two track, and the dogs, you know, just stay in front and free casting. And um yeah. So that's that's how we hunt them when that when there is no snow, like it's been most of this year.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Can I ask a question about that? Sure. Oh, you good with that, Ricky? Um, I wanted to with the the road the road hunting the dogs. We we rode our dogs a lot. All right. With with you having hounds, we have a lot of hound. So we got we got a lot of curs, and we have some one or two hounds, and we'll have some hound cur mixes or whatever, you know. So they're not as strong, they don't have as strong a note as your dogs do. But I I also know some guys that run straight hounds and they always prefer to ride and rig versus road hunting. And even in smaller areas, like you know, like you said, put them down for a mile or two. Uh and and this has been I'm gonna say uh it's almost been an argument. You know, and they're like, you you don't make any sense by putting these dogs on the ground. I'm like, I do, that's the way I do mine. And they're like, well, we can ride around and we can rig more. Uh what what are the what is your outlook on that? Rigging versus roading.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Well, um, I said I I here in Colorado we don't hunt bears. So uh I I've never rigged my dogs, you know, for it for anything. Um it's my understanding that a lot of the time when you're rigging, you're actually, you know, they're catching scent off the animals. I guess maybe sometimes they're just smelling tracks, but mountain lions don't they've got a pretty small pad and they don't they're not stinky like a bear. Um so they have kind of a very you know mild scent. So um I don't know that my that my dogs could rig a lion track, you know, up on a rack. You know, and that's what we're that's what we're trying to find. So they're you know, on the ground with their their nose to the ground, you know, um trying to find the specific footprint, you know, that that line or bobcat has come through and made.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Um and that that's that's just my understanding right now. Yeah, that that's it's less than and you know, and I I've also looked at that as well through like coyote guys that that run a track, you know. It's they do the same thing. They want them on the ground, coyote guys, fox guys, bobcat guys, mountain line guys. They want the dogs on the ground to put their nose in that track. And you have some hog hunters and bear hunters that will ride and rig. We we have rig right, we have rigged, we rig more on accident than we ever did on purpose. You know, all the dogs just blow up in the box. Well, and generally when we don't mount a it's right there, you know, it's it's hot.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

Uh but it's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

So they actually smelt the animal itself.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

They smelt the animal itself. And we we live in the hills, not really the mountain, we're in the foothills. So you got to in the morning get up high and ride around and let the thermals play with you. And uh, you know, you can rig something, generally they're gonna go down. And then in the evenings, they're you know, everything's up been moving around, so we start in the bottoms and let them bust up to the top. I j I just didn't know how much that played a factor with the with the mountain line in it because all of us look up to the dry ground line hounds. And if people say they don't care a damn lie, because that's like the epitome. Oh, yeah, no, that's that's the epitome of of a track dog.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

Yeah, absolutely. And that's um, no, yeah, that's where we all kind of aspire to be. You know, I feel fortunate that I live in an area where I get uh do both. Um and that's why I I hike my dogs as much as they do. Um I'll I'll tell you this, you know, I'd say 90% of the hounds around me can't run dry ground. You know, that they're they're snow dogs, they don't go anywhere, they you know, they get exercise and they get roaded, but they don't get hunted on dry ground. And it causes them a big problem because a lot of this stuff, this the the snow that we get around here, it'll snow, it'll be there for a day or two, but then it's gonna melt off all the south facing slopes. And I can go drive up any one of these little canyons enough to find a track and find the direction it's going in the snow. But as soon as it goes up a and over a south slope across that dry ground, um I said 90% of the houndsmen they're they're they're lost. Yeah, they can't do it. Um so that gives me an advantage. Uh some guys do, yeah. There's some I know the houndsman, that's all he runs is plots, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

And so he doesn't does he?

SPEAKER_03 56:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

They they they catch cats. He does real good with them.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

Snow snow or might just be his breeding or um his are all snow dogs.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Gotcha. Okay, I was just curious.

SPEAKER_03 56:41

Yeah, yeah, no, there's there's guys that run them. Um I've got a kid that I'm kind of helping apprentice right now that's got a a pot pop uh that that we're gonna try to get going for me. I've the ones that I've seen, you know, they make better bear dogs, in my opinion. But um, yeah, there's guys that use them.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Cool. I was I was just curious. Now that's that was all I was wanting to talk about. Um I appreciate the y'all letting me ask the question.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

That was that's it? That's all you wanted to know.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

No, I was just really curious. I w Ricky's doing the interview. I'm just sitting over here trying not to talk.

SPEAKER_07 57:18

Okay. I could chime in on that. We uh so today we had five, three, four, five. We have five bay dogs, right? So they're they're they're a couple more hounds, a couple more curr, and then one, we don't know what the hell he is. And uh anyway, we were swapping. We were doing two at a time or or three at a time, right? When we were we'd we'd catch a couple, we'd load those three up, and we'd drop the other two. We'd load a you know, catch a couple. It was just it was one of those days where we were it it was actually like that. It rarely is, but um at the end of the day, we were like, Man we caught eight or n whatever it was, and then it was like, Man, I'm happy, like we can go home now. And uh the guy that owned the place or whatever that had the access, he's like, Man, we got like six, eight hundred more yards. Let's just let's just dump 'em and let's finish it. I'm like, okay. Well we we dumped two hounds and then the dog that doesn't know what he's doing, he's just out there, we're trying to train, right? So uh the hounds hit a trail and they're they're tearing half. They're they're rolling off, they're kind of a hundred yards off the road, but kind of parallel on the road, and they're at they're at six, seven hundred. And uh I'm like, man, we're we're we're missing a lot of ground right here with the wind blowing into it. And uh, you know, those those hounds were on a track. So uh uh we got radios between two trucks and uh uh radio Cody was like, Hey man, I'm gonna drop this cur dog. Just just and and and I've got a I've got another dog that's uh mainly plot, but got a little cur. And uh I said, I'm gonna drop them because we're we're missing some winding right here. Like we're missing some ground right here. He's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. So uh, you know, inevitably that's uh hey we're done and then now we got all our dogs on the ground. We uh we get going and and sure enough uh that the hound, uh little plot bitch, she's kinda doing her own thing. And I'm not really paying a whole lot of attention. For some reason where we were today, the the reception was terrible. The entire time if the dogs got three hundred yards from the truck, I lost them. And um my buddy had a big antenna on his and he was able to kind of keep keep in touch. Well, uh we dropped them too and we're we're doing the roading type deal, we're just driving down the road. And uh we get down and I think, man, I swear I I heard a bark. So I tr I I stop the truck, turn to pick up off, and I hear and I hear chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, chop, and it's about two minutes off to my right. And I was like, Hey, who who who's on the right? And he's like, Oh, that's Marge and Marge is the straight turtle. Well, the wind's blowing right out of that direction. And I was like, Is is Wiley with her? He goes, No, no, she's she's by herself. I was like, Calder. Well, we uh we we sure enough, she uh the hounds went on their own way, they're tracking their little asses off, and here we are passing a ha uh a pig 200 yards off the road, and that cur winded it. You know? And uh of course, which was cool because we went over and caught that pig, we loaded her up, and then we went to the hounds and they had their pig bait. So it was cool. Which pig bait because it you're salt. And be honest, be honest, yeah, be honest, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

The hounds, the hounds over it's always gonna be the biggest unless it was jet, uh, a plot that I hunted with this past weekend, and we climbed down a mountain and it weighed 20 pounds, and that boy done turned a bulldog. I'm talking about we done turned a bull. He was down there, yop, yop, yop, yop, yop. And I I got about halfway and I looked up and I seen this big American bulldog looking thing coming down the hill. I said, And uh White boy Rick and and and Tuff, the little cur dog, they were about two miles the other way. They done stopped about ten times and done that. Then they finally got off on a good one and ran him for about three hours. Got him to swim the river, and then we come back and we ran a couple of deer for an hour. You know, so that you see that plot started every bit of it. I got a vendetta against plot. Oh, yeah. That's why I bring that up. Just letting y'all know that.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:00

I love Cray. That little that that one of mine, she's finally honed in. I watched her look at some deer run by the other day, and I was like, I'll be damned. But we might have finally figured it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

We might have some blue tick crosses coming out real soon, boys. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that lower belly. Yeah, that that belly kind of kicked down a little bit, and the boobs are getting a little filled out. Like a fat girl on Saturday night, boys, looking good.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

Now you're talking my language, blue ticks.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Yeah. And then we put I'm gonna put her, we're gonna put a running walker over his blue tick one of these days.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

Oh yeah, that'll be a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

I think I got one that's pretty cold. I got one that's cold nosed for for what he is, you know what I mean? Uh compared to some of the others we've seen. But as far as like what he's supposed to be and the fox pins and and and running running fox or coyotes and stuff, he sucks at that. But he does pretty good at hogs. You know, like he really does.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

There's there's a place for all of 'em.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Yes. Yes, there is.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:09

I that was you said there's a place for all of them, and I and I don't it made me kind of we were we were talking earlier at the very beginning. We talked about dogs that did their own thing and then pack, you know, pack mentality type dogs. And uh you know, some guys run a pack and some won't, you know, might run one or two or three or whatever. But um today, you know, we have this this hound bitch that will will find pigs like nobody's business, but does not give much of a fuck about banan. And and without without another dog with her, you get you get a hundred yards from her, she comes and looks at you, she'll she'll leave the pig, like, hey, I found it.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:00

Uh, we're done here.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Put that curd on the room.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:02

She's rolling on to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

Put that curd on there. Yeah, boy, I know.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:06

I know it. I know. I know. That's what I we talked about it, and I was like, man, like she's as good as they come finding them. I mean, I'm telling you, like, she'll roll out and she will find them. But if there's not a dog with her, she don't care about it. Today that no, no, it's just there's not a whole lot of bay. She's she likes finding them, but don't give a shit about baying them.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

That that's the problem that we were in there.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:32

Yeah. I that's the first time I've really noticed it. And like I said, I don't have just a whole lot of damn experience doing the hog dog shit. So uh it was like that with some of the curves, they didn't stay hooked, you know, for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

That's the problem.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:46

And now we're reversing it, like what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Dude, it's like well, uh it's I I'm gonna say some of the curves that we had, not not not everybody's curves, but we had to find the right cur dogs. And that was a long process. And then we found the right hounds that we liked. And like I said, so that you know, that's where our program is kind of going to. But I but at the same time, all the people that I've interviewed and talked to over the past five years, and it's well up in the hundreds. And most of those guys had issues. Their their main gripe was a dog not staying put.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:22

You know, like that's the first time I've seen that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

Yeah. So I I didn't know like in in the in the cat world, that's gotta be a super important thing. I would figure is to stay pressure on that tree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's you know, that's what'll happen, you know, again with these pups. Like my two pups, they they treed their first cat this year by themselves. They got one tree when they were five months old. But they didn't know to stay there. They were so excited about what they did, you know, that they stayed there for about a minute and then they turned around and wanted to run back to me and hey Dad, look, come here and check this out.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

You know, so um And then my the bloodline on my females, I've got a third generation female now. Um, you know, I said they're just turned nine months, but you know, they've already got about 15 cats underneath them. Um, but the females, and it's been that way with all of them, yeah, they would rather they would rather track, they would rather trail than than tree. There ain't no doubt about it. Um, you know, and it and it's good in some ways, uh, as long as I've got other dogs, and that's why I tend to keep, you know, also some males of my bloodline around, because the males, for whatever reason, they should tend to want to stay treat. You know, maybe they're just a little bit aggressive or what. But a lot of times we'll you know run cats and they'll be they'll be pairs. There'll be a Tom with a female, or sometimes you'll have a female traveling with, you know, basically full-grown, you know, subadults, you know, that are nine, ten, eleven months old. Um, so I I can catch, you know, multiples at times because as soon as my dogs get one treed, that female, whether you know it started off with Bell and then Penny does it, and now Izzy's doing it too, they just want to track, they'll circle that tree and they'll pick up on that other track where it kept going. And so they'll go and catch that one while my other dogs will stay treed um at that the first one. So I've like Penny now, she's probably caught oh I don't know, probably thirty cats, you know, by her by herself, and some of them big, you know, 170 pound toms. I'm not sure exactly how that all works out, but uh she does it.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:33

That's wow. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:40

But yeah, generally speaking, you want to have dogs that'll stay there. And once I've got my dogs, you know, once they get to be about two years old, um, yeah, I'll have dogs that'll stay treated overnight, you know, into the next day. Sometimes two nights, you know, if you they get way back in a canyon someplace and something happens, snowstorm, you can't get back to 'em, yeah, they'll still be treated there in the morning. Um, you know if you can get back there to 'em, so that's pretty well.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:07

So have you ever had have you ever so when you're saying uh the pup and they leave the tree and come back to you, will lions take out that tree and roll out or will he Yeah, no, and that's what happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:21

You know, this one jumped, but this particular female, she lives pretty close to me. Um I get to run her a lot. Uh I've probably caught her, you know, over the past eight years. I bet her I've I bet I've caught her nine or ten times. So she generally doesn't stay treed very long anyways. She'll jump up in a tree, just get out of reach of the dogs, maybe ten feet off the ground. And as soon as she sees me getting anywhere close, then she'll bail. She might do that ten times in a day. Yeah, probably just oh, that's awesome. That's why I I don't ever let anybody kill her or or another training. Oh yeah. No, that's and like I said, so we ran that cat that day when they were five months old and she bailed like ten times. Uh you know, in front of them and we've dumped a couple other dogs, you know, that my buddies had, you know, they came and met me and we got them on the race and you know, it just turned out to a really good day of training.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:24

So how do you know her when are you here?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

Um I just it's it's not so much what she looks like, it's just the her habits. Uh so where I pick up her tracks and and where I know I can predict, okay, if this is the same cat, she's gonna up r run up around this point, then she's gonna cut back to this saddle, you know, down into this next drainage and then she'll do that. So, you know, they have home ranges and you kind of figure it out each met probably I'd say they kind of roll maybe a ten mile by ten mile area, you know, about a hundred square miles. Uh these big toms, you know, they might run, you know forty miles by forty miles. I mean they've got a big home range, you know, some of these big you just get to know where they live, you know, what kind of rock piles. You know, they have the in the wintertime when there's snow on everything, they get up in a rock pile that's on a south facing slope, you know, off a little point. So if you find a track and you know it runs up there and that's where they jump or you know, you do that two or three times in a row, then you just kinda gotta assume it's the same cat.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:36

Yep. So well those females have more of a home range than a male, right? Like the males will go hundreds of freaking miles, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

Oh yeah, yeah, there ain't no doubt. We call, you know, some of them we call call 'em compass cats. Well, they'll take off walking, whether they're relocating or just going. But you know, we followed one cat, um, we followed them three different days in a row for a total of sixty-seven miles.

unknown 1:11:01

Jeez.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:02

And along and along that sixty-seven miles, this cat killed four he killed fourteen elk in sixty-seven miles. Holy shit. Yeah, and all he was eating out of them was the heart and the lungs.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:21

Oh, that dude's a killer.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:23

Yeah, that's bad boy. He's like, I don't even like the back straps, bud.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:27

I don't play with that shit. Yeah, no, some of some of these kills were two, three hundred yards apart.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:33

Damn. Holy crap.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:36

That's fun. Yeah, he was just killing, he was following a a herd of elk that was migrating. And yeah, he was just killing it. He wasn't even eating the livers or nothing. He was just following them and killing them and having a little snack job. Yeah, he was killing like two or three times a day. Yeah, and that we followed him. This was when I was down in New Mexico. Um, it wasn't with my own dogs, I was working for a different outfitter, but we basically followed him from the border of the Hickoria Indian Reservation onto the Ute Indian Reservation in uh southwest Colorado. So we knew another houndsman that that was kind of that was his area, and we told him where that where that cat had crossed into the reservation. Um these cats generally kind of you know will travel through the same area about every nine to fourteen days. So he just kept checking that crossing and he caught that cat coming back out of the U reservation and got him kick got him caught and got him killed, had a full belly of meat, was 223 pounds.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:53

On a full belly, so it's probably 190 legit live weight. That Bill, that's a that's a giant. Yeah, giant.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

That's a big pussy. I'm huge.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

I've I've killed one personally myself, and uh he weighed about I think he was 187 pounds, and he was eight foot seven, eight foot seven and a half from the tip of his nose to the end of his tail. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

I was sticking with pretty good up till now. I mean, are you a hog hunter too? Because that's what I'm saying, right? Okay, I'm just saying he's trying to get it. No, it's it's amazing. That's pretty huge. Yeah, like that's it's amazing. Like where we're at, you'll occasionally hear of a of a of a cat. And like a what a hundred pounds, 125 pounds, that's that's gonna be uh that's gonna be an adult cat here. It's gonna be a big cat for the most part, you know. That's just one cruising. Yeah, and and like as far as I know, 99% of the FA feel didn't feel. Oh, it's a black panther. I think the black panthers jump across the road every week by my house.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:13

And I think one of the little kids, and that we were game one said there's none here.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:20

Nate was with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

It's me and my my middle brother and the reality.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

So we're probably 50 yards from the trust. So if you would have headed across the water and get to like I'm not worried about all that I don't know enough about it. And I dropped more. So it's probably not going to work out well for that. I think a lot of like we never spend over. And we hear we hear a lot of all these other places that there's done here. And it's advertised. It was drilled in our heads on if you have a fighting of amount of things. That's not a few.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

It was not a few. From what I remember, it was five out of five. It was like that's that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:00

I did the same thing with the bears when I came home. I had 19 coats thrown out in my yard. That these coats were about 60 miles. And uh there's a bear sitting on the power line. And I said, I said, Wow. Uh that's a bear. And I just kept sitting there drinking my beer. My father also pulled up me, turned around, and said, got him a cold beer, and he leaned up on the hood. He said, Hey, that looks like a big old bear sitting up there. I said, I believe it is. And I I called I called Alabama gaming fish at the time, and and this had been years and years ago, and they were like, We get these calls all the time. They're not here. I was like, Okay, bro, no problem. Not a problem. Several years later, they found him in the we have a uh fire tower. And it's uh one mile from my house to the woods. And he was inside the fire tower, and they were trying to get him out. And the same the same uh officer that I talked to originally. He looked at me and he's like, I looked at him and I was like, Well, what are you gonna do? He said, I mean far as I know they don't exist, so that's obvious ain't real. He's like, I don't know what to tell him. I was like, Well, he's got to get out of there. I said, Well, I'm going back to the house. Tell him you know how it works out. Never heard that never heard anything else about it. So that that's the long in the store of our experience with mountain lions.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:27

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

So the the whole thing with the Black Panther deal run jumping across the road, Ricky, how how often is that out there?

SPEAKER_07 1:17:35

Oh, dude, it's I've heard the Black Panther thing once when I was growing up, and it was uh we were fishing the pond and we heard it across the pond, and then we seen it across the pond, and then but the mountain line shit's pretty regular. And to be said, like there's it's uh there was one last year that was seen on trail camera and on like house cameras and shit, like south of me. And uh it was actually going through pretty major cities.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:08

And it was you could tell he was on a mission, like it was uh he's in Plano one day and then Frisco and then Louisville, and like he was covering some ground, like he was trying to get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:19

It was like that's probably the one I was here.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:24

It was but there was actually trail cam videos, like it was a sure enough line, like it was there was no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

Last year or year before last, they had the the trail cam videos of uh a mountain line and it was in over toward Birmingham. It was on one side of the state, and three days later it was on the in the middle of the state.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

I think that was three or four years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:42

It's been a few years, but last year we had a black bear that was right here in Corbin Hill. And I knew, bro, like I'm telling you, I was like, don't put that picture on the news because I've seen it on Facebook and sure enough it made the six o'clock news. I said that that bear's ass is fire up tonight. I promise. Every every food doll, every phone doll was tired.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:07

I'm talking about and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

Hey, everything probably treated except a plot. I'm walking on the party. No, I don't know. That's all I just made that up. But like I do know a few guys that they they literally went and turned out. I don't know if they ever if they ever treat him or not. Of course, that you know, they're not gonna tell you, and I wouldn't either.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:32

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

You know, but at the same time, it is. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Did the do the mountain lions scream though like that? That like they people talk about I've never heard one scream.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:46

So that's I guess I wouldn't be the person to ask.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:52

What what about you know have you heard the the tales?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:59

I mean, I've heard them.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

I've heard about people Yeah, I've heard people walking back to camp and the mountain line up on the ridge, screaming, falling on the hallway. Yeah, I've never heard that, but I've I've heard some foxes that sound like they're screaming bloody murder.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:15

I've heard bobcats do some crazy stuff as well. But like here, oh, it's a what how what do they say? It's a woman screaming, it's a baby crying. Bloody murder. Yeah, if you hear any of that, that black panther's finna jump across the road and get you, boy. Eat you eat your gut thing. I was just curious if they really did make a lot with a lot of vocalizations.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:38

Uh yeah, I mean they've got a I mean, you get one in a cave or something. I mean, they've got a really deep guttural, you know, growl to them. You know, I but I know from experience, it's the one time that I had my dog Bell got my dogs generally don't get shooed up, but once it seems like each one will get get it, you know, one time kind of bad. And this was the time for Bell. Um we had been following this cat. I had a buddy down from Nebraska that was trying to kill a mountain line, uh a good friend of mine. This is about his third time he'd come down. We'd shoot some females, and I wasn't gonna let him shoot though, but we finally got on a big tom and we're out in a in an area that we call the burn. Um a big fire came through there, but it is super rocky, nasty. Um just a bunch of big boulder piles. Uh there's a creek that and a river that runs through there. You're getting a bunch of big slab rocks and cliffs. It's just not a good place to chase cats, a good place for dogs to get hurt, you know. Um the cats don't go up trees, they end up in rock piles and holes. Um, but that's why there's big toms there. So we were just gonna try to catch this cat for my buddy, anyways, and ended up the dogs ran them into a big, big giant rock pile when we got up there, kind of the top of it. Um you know, the dogs were kind of spread out, you know, nobody really know where that knew where that cat was. And you know, the guys that are with it just kind of, you know, we kind of kind of gave it up. Um I didn't think there was a very good chance of us being able to locate, you know, that that Tom in that big rock pile, but you know, I had to try anyway, so I took off my backpack, and that's where my 357 was inside my backpack. Um, and I didn't grab it out. So I grabbed my main dog, Bell, and started crawling, you know, into this big boulder field. Um, of course, you know, this the snow when it melts from the sun, it drips down into the rocks, and just everything gets covered with ice and um so you have a bunch of ice caves in this boulder pile that we're trying to find this mountain line in. I get to this one little point where there's a rock and I have to kind of jump down off this rock. I can't just step down there, I can't lower myself down. I know I'm gonna have to jump, but I can see the rock that I'm gonna land on is covered with ice. So I know what as soon as I hit it, my feet are gonna slide out from underneath me, and but that's where we needed to go. So as I kind of jumped off that little thing onto the ice below, I made sure I covered my head real good, and so when I hit my feet slid out, sure enough, you know, I hit that rock pretty good. But when I slid down, as soon as I got to the bottom of it, that's all I could hear around this rock on the other side of it was Andal was up above me, heard that, and so she jumped off the rock, she hit the ice, slid down, and so we're both piled up against this rock in the dark, and this lion comes around the the corner of the the rock right there, and Bell, of course, you know, just immediately went after that that lion. And so they were scrapping, and I grabbed Belle by the tail, and so I was pulling her back trying to get her away from the the lion, and I finally had to reach up with my boot and kind of bop the cat in the nose and got Belle free from there, and I was able to grab her collar, but now I'm just sitting like two feet away from this 150-pound mountain line in this cave with my dog, and I am yelling at the top of my lungs for one of my friends to bring me a gun. I'm just I mean, we're just in this standoff, and I'm you know, the cat's kind of backed up, you know, and we're just all looking at each other, and so this goes on for like 30 minutes where I am screaming, give me a gun, somebody bring me a damn gun. And they can't hear me because they're up at the top of the rock pile with all the other dogs are up there, you know, barking and still making noise. And finally, my buddy, uh Sean comes down and he's walking up above me. I can feel some snow come down on my head, so I start yelling at him again, and man, he's hot because he thinks I'm just cussing him and talking to him that way for no reason.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:28

You know, so hey, listen here, you some bitch, you better quote me that way. I don't know who you think you're talking to. I said, just bring me a fucking gun You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:40

Just bring me a gun, and finally he figures out what's going on and he comes down there and we get the other dogs down there and kind of get everybody tied back and so now we're trying to talk my buddy Kyle into shooting this cat. It's the guy from Nebraska, and he said, Well, how am I supposed to do that? Well, you're gonna have to call in there and stick your gun in his face and shoot him. Well, I don't know who how close am I gonna be? I said, Man, a foot, foot and a half maybe, you know? Well, I don't know if I can well, if you want to kill that cat, that's what you're gonna have to do. So get in there and just peek around the corner and I said as soon as you see him, just shoot him right underneath his chin. And Sherlohico's calling in there. He calls it, and you get all you can hear is that cat start grumbling and go, and Kyle comes back and nope, nope, nope. Nope. Not gonna happen. And so then we we had another girl with us, uh, she'd been, you know, kind of apprenticing, you know, with our group to to become a hounds woman. Uh she was pretty young at the time, I think 18 or 19, but he speaks up and you know, Bailey said, Well, well, I'll do it. I'll shoot it.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:04

All right then, sister, come on.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:07

And uh same thing. We put a gun in her hand and she crawled around and we heard some rustling and some growling, and then here comes Bailey comes out of there, nope, nope, nope. So we I had one more buddy. I had a buddy, Aaron, he's a really good taxidermist uh here in Colorado. Um but we used to guide deer hunts and stuff out in eastern Colorado. He's ex-military, he was in Iraq, and he was on uh police department, sheriff's department here where he he ran the the SWAT team and been an MMA fighter and pretty tough dude. So he said, Well man, I'll get in there, I'll get him killed. And he said, Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:53

So sure enough, he crawled in there and we hear him going, then we hear a bunch of rustling and growling. And then we hear, you know, and then I hear a gun go scattering across the rocks. I hear a bunch more rustling and rolling around.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:12

And then just real muffled. That was it.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:20

And then Aaron come crawling out of there and just kind of looks at all of us and says, Well, yeah, that got that got a little interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:32

And apparently yeah. Apparently when he'd got in there, he'd shot that cat the first time, hit him in the top of the head, and it just creased his skull, didn't go in his skull, just kind of ricocheted. And then when the cat came through it, he shot it in the mouth and then underneath the chin. But by that time the cat was already on top of him, and as it was dying, was pushing him, he fell backwards kind of and dropped his gun, you know, being ex-military and being SWAT team and stuff. Apparently, he had a a boot gun, a little like a derringer, that he was able to pull down and stick up underneath that cat's chin. And those were the last two shots that you heard was pop, pop. And that's how that went. Yeah. That would be our definition of things getting a little bit western.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:28

That was pretty western.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:31

Yeah. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:36

I will luckily it's not like it. Yeah, they're they're fun every once in a while, but if it was like that every time, I don't think I could take it.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:46

I love my dogs too much, and it's just, you know, I don't know that I could could handle them getting hurt on a regular basis. I don't know how you guys do it with those hog dogs. I mean, they get cut fairly often, don't they?

SPEAKER_07 1:29:59

Yeah. Well I mean, like I said, I'm I'm I'm pretty new to the hog gun game, but like today it was like we caught eleven hogs with no teeth, and it was fucking awesome. Oh wow. Nobody got posed, like my catch dog stuck her teeth through her lip, but other than that, like nobody got messed up, everybody's healthy, we caught a bunch of pigs, we did uh we did the landowner a little service and all was good, you know. But they make the cool pitcher, you know. They don't make the cool toothy pitcher. So I I don't really know. I just assume catch up eleven pigs and be done with it and dogs be healthy.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:48

Every day, it's like you ever have a good time.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:47

Yep, I always say that a day that ends and treat cats and and no staples is a good day.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:53

Indeed, indeed.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:54

That's a fact. That's a fact.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:57

Have you ever went have you ever went with big dogs? Have you ever done that? I have. I have uh a friend that lives in Oklahoma, and um I so I did get to go out and do that. Um and he took us on it with some private duck glace uh that needed some extra help, and we had a great time. We killed uh we killed some good real big boars. I think we killed three of them that were you know in that 280 to 300 pound range, you know, with knives, you know, that's how they were doing it, you know, using and uh they they had they were running the same thing. They had kind of hounds um with curs, and then their their catch dogs were they were using Argentine dogos. So that was pretty pretty neat to see those those big dogs, you know, that were specifically made and bred to do that kind of work, you know, to watch them do their thing was very impressive. And um yeah, no, this guy had had a good handle on his pat. I mean he could his dog stayed stayed silent, you know, his his uh tracking dogs and cur dogs stayed silent until they actually jumped the pigs, you know, in the truck and stuff, there was no barking, you know, he'd send them out and they'd take off until they got right in the middle of them, and then you could hear them, you know, they'd open up and once they got them baited up. Um, you know, again, even the dogos were real good about, you know, he could walk them in kind of at a heel, didn't even have to have them on a leash, walking them into into the bay up, and then he would send them and they would go in there. So yeah, no, it was it was fun, it was the real deal for sure.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:38

That's kind of my goal with uh the catch dog that I've got now. She's half dog and uh my goal is to kinda not have to run a lead. And she's really really chill on a leash for a lead and uh so I think it's definitely doable. I just gotta work I gotta work towards it and she'll uh if I can I'm working on kind of the tones right now with the collar. I haven't really had to shock her or anything, so uh I'm I'm I'm working on that. But she's really such a breeze on the lead that it's not that big of a deal. But I've I've ever led big giant ass catch dogs that were miserable to be be getting drugged by, you know what I mean? It's like God almighty, like they're just pulling you through briar after briar, and you're like, alright, I'm done with this shit. So uh Yeah, and having a dog that you wouldn't have to lead in would be really awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:34

And that's uh, you know, for us, it's having having a dog that I I don't have to lead out, you know, is the main thing. You know, we're um we're climbing some serious mountains and some pretty rocky cliffs, you know, and I can't be wrestling dogs and leashes and stuff. So I don't man, I've I can't remember the last time I actually carried a leash, you know, I carry some quick little tie downs, you know, if I just want to tie them up real quick while we shoot a lion. But um when we get done with the tree, you know, and we're just gonna what we call tree and free, you know, catch and release. Yeah. Um you know, we just we say, hey, that's enough. Let's go, let's go, we're done, and we turn around and and walk out of there, and those dogs will, you know, generally, you know, will come. You know, the new ones sometimes take you might have to tone them a little bit just to get them off there. But yeah, that's the goal is I don't want to have to use leashes with my dogs ever.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:35:31

No, that's that's uh that's yeah, I uh I agree. I always have one on me just because I've ran into circumstances where dogs are getting to be assholes or whatever it is. But like I've got a buddy, he never carries one, and I'm like, dude, what are you doing? Like you've got to have a lead on you. Like what if, what if this, what if that, what if this? He's like, ah, it will be alright. I'm like, hmm, okay, whatever. I'd have it on me and not need it.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:02

Yeah, I basically just took a bunch of bold parachute cord and made just little quick little slip leashes, you know, basically that I carry in my chest pack and you know, I said the only time they go on is just for, you know, a couple minutes if we're gonna shoot a cat. I don't like to I don't like to drop cats down into the middle of my dogs, um, you know, while they're still still alive, you know, those cats can do pretty fair amount of damage with those claws pretty quick if they get a hold of a dog. So I'll usually if we're gonna shoot them, I'll tie my dogs back until we do that. Um but other other guys do it differently.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:38

Some guys will let them fall right into the dog fee.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:45

So I was I was scrolling through, kinda doing my little uh pre-podcast, due diligence. So I see you holding the leopard up. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:59

Yeah, so I was fortunate enough. Like I said, I've been a professional hunting guide my whole uh life. Um when the when the cameras first started coming out, you know, that were TV production quality, you know, late 90s, you know, that that private people could buy. I started um started filming a lot of my hunts and filming hunts for you know other people, and that led to me, you know, being able to film some hunts for some TV shows that were on the outdoor channel. So I think I was filming for Tridicon's World of Sports A Field for a while, tracks across Africa, uh, which you know just opened up, you know. I got to travel all over the world um filming hunts. So probably the leopard that you saw that was in Mozambique, um giant leopard, you know. I think he was uh what they do it in kilos, so I think it was 81 or 83 kilos, which is about 180 pounds, I think. So to 70, something like that, 2.2 pounds per kilo, is that right? Yeah, so it's uh big giant leopard. Um, I mean just a beast of a leopard, and uh man, I that's ultimately my goal is to I would love to go run those with dogs, you know, someday. But this one, this one was not done with dogs. Uh we you know, basically the way that they hunt them is over bait, you know, you shoot an impala uh or someplace and and hang it up in a tree, you know, to let that get a leopard uh to come and start feeding on them. So I think we sat maybe three nights, you know, three evenings before that that cat finally came in. Um and yeah, you know, I just such a such an awesome creature. You know, I hope I get to go back there and hunt him again with dogs someday.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:50

What's your so if you compare them to a mountain lion, like what's the difference?

SPEAKER_03 1:38:56

Oh man, I'll put it this way, you know, if if mountain lions had the attitude of a leopard, nah, we probably wouldn't be doing this too too too much. You know, and I don't I really don't know, you know, what the statistics are, but I promise those guys over there lose a lot of dogs. Um, you know, unfortunately. Those those leopards are just so much more aggressive, you know, like mountain lions. I can go be right next to them in a tree, you know, even if they're baited up on the ground. I don't have I'm not worried. I can walk up to them within 10 feet and it doesn't bother me. Um yeah, I I really don't have any fear, to be honest with you. I've a mountain lion, I have a respect for them. Um and I know, yeah, they can hurt you, they get a hold of you, but I'm not it doesn't make me nervous being around them. Like where a a leopard is just a different different beast, um, just so much more aggressive. Um yeah, they are going to attack. If you get if they see you, if they can get to you, if there's not something between you and them, um, especially if they're one, yeah, they're absolutely gonna attack you. And you just don't have to deal with that with with the mountain line. You know, once in a while you get one with a bad attitude. I'm not saying they're all the same. Um and yeah, there there's some of them that yeah, can definitely be assholes. But uh for the most part, you know, they're they're uh yeah, they're pretty pretty calm, you know, once you get them treated. You know, I walked up and had dogs, you know, blowing the rooftop off and that cat will be asleep up there, you know, believe it or not. You know, they'll just once they get once they get up in those trees, they're just kind of you can tell that they're mildly annoyed and they want you to go away, but uh it's not the end of the world for them, the dogs for us.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:40

What about physically? Like are their heads the same size, or paws bigger, like I mean, um on the left are gonna be way bigger.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:48

Yeah, no, the leopard's heads are definitely uh a lot more muscular, a lot beefier. Um yeah, and and their front shoulders, you know, they're even a little bit more stout. I would say they're a little bit shorter bodied, generally speaking, um, and and more compact, you know. Um maybe not quite so much as is a jaguar is. Um but yeah, they're definitely um probably I think they're probably a more powerful creature, you know, than than the mountain lion is.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:38

I don't know what to say, but it just I don't know. It looks scarier.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:41

Yeah, no, they're you know, they're the they're the heavyweights, you know, of of the bodybuilders for sure. You know, they they've definitely got a a more more muscular um structure. It's probably just because they're generally speaking most of the time hunting a little bit larger game. Um a little bit tougher game. You know, I guess an an elk and a kudu are about the same size, but uh for some reason in Africa just all the animals seem to be a little bit tougher, and it's maybe it's just cause it's uh just a more violent, you know, scenario going on where everything is trying to eat and kill each other.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:19

They're tough.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:21

So would that be your if you were to pick to run a game with a dog, would that be your would that be your top of the list?

SPEAKER_03 1:42:30

Or do you have I would be but Yeah, no, I want to catch snow leopards in Nepal. Oh yeah. That's what it that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do, catch snow leopards in Nepal or Pakistan.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:45

That would be are there have you seen that before? Is that a thing? No, it's not a thing. I'd I've never heard of it ever being done.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:56

Okay. I was just making sure I wasn't crazy. I was like, I don't think I've ever seen it, but that sounds fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:02

No, no, they consider they uh they consider them to be an an endangered species, so you're not allowed to hunt them at all. Um yeah. Well, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:16

That makes me want to do it now. It's like shit, there's not that many. All right, let's see.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:21

Well, that's that's just it. There there is, there's plenty of them. They should, in the in the name of wildlife conservation and raising funds, you know, for more research and for those villages and stuff out there, they absolutely should be hunting some of them, you know, because there's plenty of them there. When I was in Nepal, I went over there to film a hunt. One of our pack horses actually got killed by a snow leopard and you know ate off of it. And, you know, they're not supposed to do anything about it, you know. But these guys, you know, the people depend on those pack horses to, you know, for a living. You know, they go back and forth from village to village, and when they lose one of their animals, it's a big loss. And I so we started talking with the Nepalese people, and they said, Man, they're they are everywhere. There's so many snow leopards, they're everywhere, you know, and they don't believe in, you know, personally they don't believe in killing animals and stuff like that, but they say that you know that a lot of the people they poison the snow leopards that eat the eat the the pack animals. You know, just so there's actually, you know, because there's so many of them, there they are being poached, they're being poisoned. Whereas if you put you know a monetary value and had a a snow leopard hunt or an auction, you know, where they sold two permits. Oh my god, yeah, it's going for a million dollars at least. At least a million.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:48

That's a mil yeah, that's a million dollar hunt, no doubt.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:52

Yeah, at least more than that. Yeah, I it could be even more than that. But so you get you do a couple of those, the amount of funds that you could you know raise for that whole you know, valley or whatever, you know. I mean, you could be build schools, hospitals, you could, you know, do you know some kind of livestock breeding program, there's just a lot of good stuff that could come from that money, as well as you know, pay for some anti-poaching patrols and you know, some education with the the with the landowners and the packers, you know, or some reimbursement for the for the pack horses that get killed by the by the snow leopard, you know, instead of poisoning the snow leopard, pay the guy to get a new horse, give them a little bit extra, then they don't want to kill the snow leopards no more, right? Yeah. But that's what I want to do.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:43

I guess I want to run a snow leopard with my dogs. I've seen I've seen a handful of videos lately of them slink lim llamas or whatever the fuck they are. Oh yeah, those leopards off their neck, like I mean, quick, boy. Yeah. Have you seen that? Is that the same thing? Is that the same thing I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:03

Uh, I think that maybe what you're talking about is the the Panthers that are down in South America, like down in Patagonia. Um, they're basically the equivalent of our mountain lions, and they that's what they're doing down there. They are they're eating, you know, like I said, it's like a llama. I forget it's alpaca. Um, but it's not yeah, it's kind of something like that. But yeah, they jump on them and they grab them up by their head and a long neck. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about, where they start going like a rag doll. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:46:37

Yeah. So they're down there. Oh, the ibex bounding down yeah, bounding down the mountain like I mean, wrecking out. And that never let me know. Yeah, that's wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:57

Yeah, that's the same one I've seen. That's like what you're talking about. Yeah, those are the ibex. It's insane.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:06

Yeah, to think that an animal can fall yeah, hundreds of feet, bouncing off cliffs, rolling. I mean, I don't I mean, they do, you know, injure themselves and they kill themselves doing that sometimes, but the the fact that that doesn't happen every time is incredible that they survive it at all.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:26

Imagine how hungry you could be to have to do that. You know what I mean? Like you're a starving animal if you're ready to die for it. Like you're ready to bowl off a mountain and stay hooked the whole time. Like that's uh that's a that's an animal with some ambition. Like they've got they're they're trying to survive.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:47

In the bulldog world we call that game.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:54

The game, buddy. Yeah, uh all in for sure.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:01

Man, that's awesome. Well, hey, Patrick, I you got anything you would like to finish on? Is there anything that you'd like to touch basis on? Anything you want to tell the masses?

SPEAKER_03 1:48:11

Um, no, not really, other than, you know, we just really need to, you know, be a little bit better, I think, about supporting each other's sports, paying attention to what's going on, you know, in other places, in other states, you know, all of our um activities are constantly under attack by the anti-hunters, and you know, like I said, we're not always gonna get along. We don't always agree with the way another man tends to or wants to run his dogs, but at the end of the day, if if we don't, you know, if we don't hang together, we're gonna hang separately, right? You know? Uh so we've got to stick together, pay attention, and give each other, you know, support, you know, uh w whenever we can.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:54

That's a that's a fact. Yeah, I I I just for being in a few years of the I'll be honest, I didn't want to jump on it into social media shit and all the stuff, but it just kind of way it happened, it it is what it is. I'm here now. And uh speaking from uh kind of all ends of of of the hounds or dogs or anything. Like I I'm I'm down for any kind of dog, right? It doesn't matter what it is. And uh at the end of the day, like there's guys that will attack their own. It'd be a hog dogger that's talking shit about his own hog dog and buddy. There'll be guys that are talking about you know, you got lion hounds. I've had lion houndsmen talk to me about running pigs and deer, or deer hunters talking to me about catching deer. And it's just gosh damn, it's so ridiculous. Like we're all on the same team. Like, uh yeah, maybe I post something a little more different than you, or you know, you post something that I wouldn't post and and at the end of the day, like boys, we're on the same page. Like it's uh I I I I mean, gosh damn. Like do you, you know, and and do it, do it with a little bit of moral you know I mean like you gotta have some morals, you gotta do the you know, you gotta do the right thing when you can. But at the end of the day, like we're all on the same damn team, man. Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:30

Yes, no, that's right. It's it's hard for me to see how anybody that truly loves working a dog can fault another man working a dog no matter how he's doing no matter what the dog's doing, what what you know what game it's running or anything. Uh and and especially within the better than them. So it doesn't matter like everybody should know that. You know what I'm saying? But no it's like I seen a guy made a uh put a video up and his dogs were in the middle of a hundred head of cows and they were paying a fish out of the dog. And I was like hey your cow dogs aren't cow dogs.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:16

Exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:17

You know and and but the true work of the dog was amazing. Like those cows they paid no attention to those cows. My dog probably would have paid attention to the cows too I'll be honest with you. You know what I mean and so it's like I could appreciate that. Personally myself I would not put that video on in the context that they did it because they were like you know and I know it was all in good deal they were like hey F the cows we don't care or we don't care about your cows we're worried about the hog yes we get that but from a from a rancher's point of view I'd be like I don't know if I'd want them in the middle of my cows. But I'm not gonna fault them. I'm gonna I'm gonna support it you know now if they were out there and had the dogs hanging off the cows and posted that I'd be like well dude that's that's you know right but yeah I just don't see how they are each other a little bit more anyway. That that's right.

SPEAKER_07 1:52:12

That's exactly right you know and and and I Ricky posts a lot of videos like there are those no go ahead no I'm just saying there are those where it's like okay like yeah we're on the same page but like what the fuck are you thinking man like makes it hard to sometimes you gotta get your teammates asked when they're acting a fool.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:34

Yeah and and that's that's true. You need to private messenger be like hey man what are you doing? Yeah but you ain't gotta do it in public.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:41

No I don't think you should really ever do it in public.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:44

You know like if if there's Yeah no that's the thing those are those are conversations between you know dog owners that can be held privately you know and so we do have to police our own our own ranks. Without a doubt you know and it's our responsibility you know to when you see somebody doing something just as in normal life you know that that's not quite right you pull that person aside and you say hey man I noticed this I just wanted to ask you about it. You know I'm not trying to accuse you of anything but just you know have you ever thought of maybe doing something a little bit different.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:16

Well i or it's just a you know and I've done it before and I've I've I've been called out I true I have I've had people and they're like dude man that was like that was pretty ranked and I'm like dang I didn't you know you ought to see the rank ones that's what I'm thinking you know that's exactly what I think and you know there's times where I post some stuff and I'm like I can't be ashamed of what I do. But at the same time I couldn't be I shouldn't be shameful in showing what I'm doing. I I couldn't put stuff that would bring shame to the community you know uh dogs get dogs dogs get injured yeah and and I've got some tough dogs and I've had some that paid the ultimate price and we all have and but I'm not going to post that like there was a video not long ago a guy literally was had a video of his dog dead and was talking about like here with him until he took his last breath why weren't you trying to save him why weren't you you know why weren't you taking him to the vet? Why weren't you doing what you could do instead of videoing the dog you got to deal with that kind of stuff. But at the same time it's like instead of instead of berating this guy or just talking bad to him he might really not know any better. You know what you know what what was the what was the situation man what all happened? Ask what happened first and then when he tells you some crazy shit be like well dude look there's a better way to handle this and this is why you're getting the flack yeah you know and it's not the end of the world doesn't mean we can't be friends.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:52

We can't you know still be buddies but you know let's try to learn from it and move on.

SPEAKER_07 1:55:00

Yeah I I I I can't yeah we're too people really getting their feels over deer and and white deer are king you know why tell deer king and north and uh where we're at and uh we're we're you know in the south I don't know about up there where you're at Patrick but why tell deer king and by God if there's anything close to a dog on a deer it's the end of the world. It's bad you call me bro your your people called me to be here so um I uh I yeah I can't put I don't I I will not post any of those videos if there's anything remotely close to a you know a a type A or whatever, you know there's no stretching there's none of that stuff. Even though it's legal and we're doing the job and this person's putting the deer on the tailgate and getting their meat in the freezer that they would not have normally that they shot. Uh I w uh yeah that they that they shot in the ass and they wounded. But um yeah I try I try my best I I have a a bunch but I won't post those and it would be and it's a different it's different aspects like oh I've got some awesome ones but can't do it. And uh you know it is what it is. You know and and other and other hounsmen see uh pig dog guys as being more vulgar and more real and I you know and other guys see the some of the bear guys are are a little too rank and it's just like you know you gotta draw a line in the sand and at the end of the day like we're all on the same page. We're all on the same team there's no reason for us to har the dog each other.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:45

I mean that's right I mean there's there's no sense in it w we all have something equally wrong with us that this is what our passion is, you know that's exactly right I look from it I'm like I am crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:59

Yeah so not dangerous but crazy.

SPEAKER_07 1:57:02

That's a fact something wrong with me.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:05

Yeah yeah no doubt my wife told me that the other day third night in a row getting up at eleven o'clock at night to load dogs and go drive around looking for tracks in the snow. She just looked at me and said man there's something wrong with you And I said Yeah I know I'm sorry. It just is what it is.

SPEAKER_07 1:57:27

At least we both know it, you know I had a I'm just speaking off my own circumstance we were I shot a I'm we're trying to train my dog to track deer, right? We did a wounded deer recovery deal and shot a deer a month ago and I had my two boys with me and deer fell off the face of this damn cliff and uh I was dragging this dog this deer up. We got two one boy's crying, he's down below me, one boy's above me, wondering why I'm taking so long and all these things. And I remember I sent a video to a couple of buddies and I'm like what is wrong with me? Why am I doing this? Like I didn't have to you know what I mean? Like I we could have not shot this doe and and trained the dogs on it. Like I could have just went home and all these things I'm like what there's something seriously wrong with me. Like I I I'm a I w I I like um it's not torture but it's gotta be close to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:32

I mean I don't mind a glutton for punishment. Yeah that's what it is.

SPEAKER_07 1:58:41

But anyhow man hey Patrick I appreciate you having me on if um man I I can we've talked and I can just tell you know you know your stuff about hounds and and I I'm very thankful for having you on. I've I've learned a lot tonight. So anyways you have do you have a YouTube and all these things that we that these guys can uh keep in touch and stay track with you?

SPEAKER_03 1:59:07

Yeah absolutely um of course you know the probably the best I don't do Facebook but I do have an Instagram and on Instagram I am p Monty306 so P M O N T E 3006 and then I do have a a YouTube channel um but man I'd love for you guys to go check that out and it's just under P Monty Outdoors so again it's P M O N T E P Monty outdoors and that's on on YouTube and I've got a bunch of good videos there.

SPEAKER_07 1:59:42

And and so do you outfit a lot of things other than just hounds right like you you you'll do a lot of outfit on anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:50

Yeah I'm not so much as an outfitter as I am just a professional guide. I like to work for other outfitters let them deal with all the headaches and and mess I just like to show up and hunt stuff. Um so but yeah no I do do that. Um I was kind of was uh famous there for a while for out in eastern Colorado hunting big giant mule deer and whitetails we were killing a lot of 180 inch, 200 inch uh mule deer and I don't know I think I killed seven or eight white tails out there that were over uh 180. I think we killed four maybe whitetails that were over 200 inches out there. So yeah still guiding and chasing elk and hound dogs just become uh kind of my priority. Uh I guess we all go through stages in life and uh finally rounded on being a houndsman and I think this is just where I'm gonna spend spend the rest of my days getting getting better at it and training dogs.

SPEAKER_07 2:00:44

Man that's that's kind of the that's the stage I've been at I've I've been fortunate to kill some pretty big deer and now it's like I don't know. It's just not on the top of my agenda as it is to to train a puppy on a doe or something like that. So it's it's cool to it's cool to hear it on your end and and uh likewise on my end I'm I'm there. I've I've I've kind of conquered some of those goals and now the goals are have nothing to do but anything but dogs.

SPEAKER_03 2:01:14

So I'm out I appreciate you having on yeah thanks thanks for thanks for having me good talking with you uh with you fellows and you know good luck with uh with the rest of your your seasons and and training dogs.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:29

Yes sir thank you you too all right brother have a good night mm-hmm we'll see