Episode 9: Touring of Italy with Elephants - The Punic Wars: Part 2

Elephants don’t belong in winter mountains, which is exactly why Hannibal puts them there. We’re Sarah and Kelsey, and we’re telling the Punic Wars through the lens of the boldest move of the Second Punic War: Hannibal dragging an army from Carthaginian Spain over the Alps and into Roman territory when Rome assumes its navy can keep him contained. Along the way, we set the stage with the Roman Republic versus Carthage, the messy aftermath of the First Punic War, and the mercenary revolt that reshapes power in the western Mediterranean.

 If you’re searching for Punic War history; Hannibal crossing the Alps, the Battle of Cannae explained, or the destruction of Carthage, this story connects the famous moments to the brutal endpoint.

Subscribe, share the show with your fellow history nerds, and leave a review so more people can find us. What’s your favorite “how did they think this was a good idea” moment from ancient history?

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Transcript

Beer Banter And Warm Welcome

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm Sarah. I'm Kelsey.

unknown 0:02

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

And we're that's the macaroni. Um, all right. Third best beer. Welcome back to the peanut course. What did you just say? You're drinking the third best beer.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

I'm drinking the third best beer. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

It's no paps. It's no bud. It's cares.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

It's Kers.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

It's Kersley.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

It's the beer of my people.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Which is trashing.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

I was gonna say. Hey my doodle dandies. This is Kelsey. And I'm Sarah. And we're that's so macaroni. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

You can't open it. It's gonna explode. Did you shake it up? Yes. Alright, teach me some shit about the second Punic War.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Are you recording? Oh, did you record that? Good.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Hold on. Hold on. Shit. My butt. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Okay. I don't worry, get coffee. Oh fuck, where am I? Don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Let's say we're about to be in BCE.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Oh, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Before the common era.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

I thought it was before Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

What happened to Christ?

SPEAKER_02 1:16

We're taking them out of Christmas. We're taking them out of the time frame.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Alright, so hello. Hello. Sorry. I'm Sarah. I'm Kelsey.

unknown 1:26

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

And we're that's in Macaroni.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Um this is how we do things.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

This is how we do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I put that's probably the kung fu fighting song, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

No, it's from Step Brothers.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Oh. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Oh. Did we just become best friends? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

So I put one week later.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

You have to say it in the French Spongebob voice.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

One week later.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

So we're gonna try to talk before we talk?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Sarah, honestly, I just got so excited to tell you everything that I'm like, hey Sarah, we talk every day. Fuck you. Let me tell you a table. It's true. You're gonna fucking love this story, okay? Shut up and listen to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Okay, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Okay.

Quick Recap Of The First War

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Anyways, so we have a bit of a break between wars, but there was a 23-year break between the first and second wars, um, between the Roman Republic and Carthage. And that was clearly not enough time for them to forget their issues, but it's probably long enough for you to forget, so let's recap. The Roman Republic was before the Roman Empire and participated in the Punic Wars. The Carthaginian Empire was vast, wealthy African Empire that got its name from its capital city, Carthage, in Tunisia. The Mamertines, or the Sons of Mars, were Roman mercenaries that were unemployed and stirred shit up on Sicily between these two civilizations, setting off the first of three wars. Rome fights hella aggressive and just throws people and stuff, and I don't we don't remember where they get all these people from.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Um there aren't that many people during this time. I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

There can't be. Um and then Carthage stays on the defensive because they're not used to fighting such a tenacious little shit. So Romans are like the chihuahuas of the ancient world.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

I hate chihuahuas.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

And they just keep coming, you know? Except for Nacho. Nacho's a duty's quiet little grumpy man. He's like to sit on laps and breathe his disgusting fresh breath into your face. Fucking dog. Okay. Alright, P. Nacho. So this prolonged war with a relentless aggressor left Carthage, broke and with reduced territory and gave Rome her first territory off of the Italian peninsula.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

How do we know Rome is a her? How did you decide this is 2025? Okay, you can't just assume genders. Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Um, because I just hate that everything is called him. Okay, you know.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Well, except for like ships. Yeah. Ships are female.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Now they are, so how come she can't be? How come Rome can't be female?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I don't know. I'm just asking you where you got this information.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I came up with it myself.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

And I was raised by wolves. So what happened in those 23 years? Tell

Mercenary Revolt And Spain Expansion

SPEAKER_02 4:10

me about the entry years. 23 years is a long time. There is a vicious rebellion by the Carthaginian mercenary soldiers and their African allies between 241 and 237 BCE that became known as the truceless or mercenary war. Truce or truceless, yes. Okay, got it. Okay. Um, interestingly, Rome supported Carthage through this war. But not for free. Because don't do anything for free. Nothing's free. Rome took their opportunity to take Sardinia and Corsica from Carthage and charge them for their help. That makes sense. During this time, Hamilcar, Hannibal's father and the general who waged guerrilla warfare in Sicily years earlier, and his son-in-law, as Drupal the Fair, were able to subdue the rebellion and gain new territory in Hispania, which had lucrative silver mines. Rome didn't mind this. Instead, they were busy organizing their islands, setting up all their little Roman stuff, and they were fighting the Gauls in northern Italy and starting towards Illyria, which is modern day um um Baltics, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Western Serbia, those places we talked about in our first episode. Yes, so oh, and a narrow part of Macedonia.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Just narrow, just in a little bit, just in a wee bit.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

I felt that that was necessary. Um, however, and very dramatically, quote, Rome's eastward expansion into Illyria was cut short by unforeseen events in Hispanic. Events that would soon involve Rome in a fight for its very survival.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I appreciate the dramatics. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

I needed that.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Thank you. I do my best. At

Hannibal Rises After Saguntum

SPEAKER_02 5:52

the opening of the Second Punic War in 219, the roles of uh Rome and Carthage had flipped a bit, with Rome having superior naval power and Carthage having a better land military.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

So I've mentioned Hannibal a few times, and he's why I got into this whole thing in the first place. That was faster. Okay. Badass cat. So, baby background. He lived from 247 to 182 BCE, which is 62 years old.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Who is this? Hannibal. Hannibal. Okay. I was like, wait, I know these dates.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Born in Carthage, just as they were losing the first Punic War. Um, and somehow in perpetrating atrocities in Sicily, Daddy Hamilkar made time to make Hannibal. I get it. In the Punic language, yeah, I mean you gotta fuck. So, um gotta go home real quick to my wife. His name would be Han Baal, which means the mercy of Baal.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

What? The amount that I want to punch you in the face right now. Why? Those are my notes, bitch! Okay. No, it's fine. Continue. It's just gonna happen again.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Do you want me to not do that?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

No, it's fine. Go ahead. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Baal was a canonite deity, also known as a fighter, king of gods, and the ruler of the nether world when referenced alone. Okay. After his father died in 229, has triple affair, Hannibal's brother-in-law was voted as the new leader of Iberia or Hispania. It's the same fucking thing. So they the Iberian Peninsula is where Hispania is. I use them interchangeably. Okay. I don't think I've ever settled on one. Um Well, I mean, even like when you do the research, it just flip-flops. Yeah, it flip-flops anyway. So I don't think I I don't think I stayed consistent either. But just as a reminder, they're the same. Okay. Um where Hamilkar was a military leader, Hisdrubal was a political one, um, and consolidated power. But in 221, unfortunately, Hasdrubal, the fair, the brother-in-law, is moided.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

It was mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Okay. So they're like, well, who else would be a good guy to lead Iberia? And it's Hannibal. He's 26 years old, and he's like, I think it's time to renew my father's aggressive military tactics against both the Iberian natives and Rome. So he gets at it. In 219, Hannibal besieges Saget Saguntum? Saguntum? Saguntum?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I think so. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

That sounds better. Seguntum.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Saguntum?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Sounds more German.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

But aren't they in Africa?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

No, here they're in Spain. Oh, that's right. What is Spain now?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

I don't know. But it's also so fucking long ago It doesn't really exist anymore. No. It I think it does.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Uh sorry, Seguntum.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

It might have a different name though. Oh, okay. A Roman city. Anyways, on the peninsula. And he finally took it down in eight months. Uh, he liked the fact that Rome was at war with the Illyrians and was like, Suck. I'm gonna go ahead and take advantage of this. So his dribble affair was all about making deals and he had made a treaty with Rome. Even back in the olden days, it was argued if this was or was not a violation of the treaty because he decided to when he took this city, it was like, We promise you can we'll live in peace and harmony. And Hannibal was like, fuck that shit. Fuck your bitch and the clique you came with. And he was like, I mean, it's a moot point now, because it happened a little while ago. Um, but Rome was insulted by this Uno reverse and demanded Hannibal be extradited by the Carthaginian government. Luckily, everything is so far apart and takes forever. So Hannibal doesn't really go anywhere. Go anywhere. I mean, he goes somewhere. Oh, he goes places, which is not where Rome had hoped. Um Rome had this idea for some reason that Hannibal would stay within Well, I I guess it makes sense. He would stay within Carthage's territory in northern Iberia because um if he could be outflanked at any time by Rome's navy.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

So they thought that he would stay there because like if he goes anywhere else, he could be caught by the navy, cut off, whatever. Um, and like I'd said in the f in the first one, um, the Carthaginians were not very aggressive. No. They did not, they were mostly just about keeping the status quo because status quo makes you money and we don't want to fuck that up.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Killing people um takes money away from you.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard when you just kill everybody.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Um, so Rome had thought they could use one of their armies to hold back Hannibal and the other one to invade Carthage. Um, but since communication took so long, Hannibal just kept on keeping on and walked a little further. Um just like running. Just like running. So he keeps on to extend Carthage's territory. And he goes, Hey little brother Hasdrubal, which is not brother-in-law Hasdrubal, who's dead. Take over the stewardship of Iberia for me, I'll be back after I sack Rome. So Hasdrubal this oh yeah, not the brother-in-law. So Hasdrubal seems to be like the Carthaginian form of like John or James or Frank or something. Yeah. Super basic. Yes. Um, so he does the opposite of what Rome Rum Rome had. W

The Alps Crossing Shock Plan

SPEAKER_02 11:26

he would do and enacted the first ever lightning attack on the Roman Republic.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah!

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Sorry, that's just what I imagined when you said lightning like that. Blitzkrieg. The ancient world, which is not as fast as the mechanized blitzkrieg. But Hannibal moves anywhere, because the sources differ. Um, he moves anywhere from 38,000 to 50,000 infantry, 8,000 to 9,000 cavalry, and 37, everyone agreed on that, were elephants, over the Alps in late 218 BCE. Uh-huh. Uh the late March took a little bit of a toll on his army, um, losing almost a third of his men and a majority of his elephants.

unknown 12:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

I don't know if you knew this, but elephants don't really fit on mountain.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

I read I don't know if I wrote it down, but I read somewhere that there that he was surprised at how sure-footed they were. And I was like, I mean, I guess if you're that fucking big, it doesn't do well for you to just be tumbling over all the damn time.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

But like, yeah, through the Alps. This is why I've had because I've always heard about this, and I was like, what an amazing feat that he pulled off. And so I didn't know that there was multiple Punicors, but this, like, this venture is what I've always heard of. Yeah. From I don't know, places nobody else listens to, I guess. And I was like, fucking epic. So you're just like sitting there in northern Italy, like, man, I'm so glad that war elephants aren't here and they're only in Africa now. And then all of a sudden they show up. You just like hear something in the distance.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

That sounds like an elephant.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

A trumpeting.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

I've never even seen an elephant, but I know that's an elephant.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah. And even if you haven't, you're like, all I know is that that's a bad fucking sound. Do you ever hear something that you haven't heard before or seen before? Like, do you remember the first time that you've seen a whip scorpion? With those divining, yeah. Yeah. And you're like, I'm sorry. The fuck is that thing? Yeah. There's a dead one upstairs right now. The first time you first time you hear something or see something that is like unexpected, and you're like, the fuck is that? And the hair just raises and you're like, this cannot possibly be fucking good. This isn't real. That's what they were going through. Yes. Also, fun fact, as of right now, it's not certain where he crossed the Alps. Uh some things, and I'm gonna butcher all of these, and I can't care. Um the Col du Langenever? That sounds French as fuck. Thank you. Um, because it fits the distance and topography described by the ancient historian Polybius. But also there's another one, Col de la Treverset, which may fit a little bit better and has evidence of ancient animal droppings. Um, but what they what they do have is both of them have a clear view into Italy from the summit, which was described.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Um, and a suitable path for an army to pass through.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Um, but there is the really old poo and a rocky descent in Trevor Set that makes it a little bit more convincing to some people.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

That makes sense. But besides that, they have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Um, so a little bit of war elephant imagery that I gave you last week, but here's a little bit more detail. If you're interested,

War Elephants And Logistics Reality

SPEAKER_02 14:35

if you've been interested. Yes.

unknown 14:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Pacoderms have been used by many different civilizations throughout the ancient world. The first recorded instance of elephants being weaponized is in 330 BCE when Alexander the Great fought Persian King Darius III. Darius did not have many elephants, he lost. Next, when Alexander fought the Indian king um Porus, he had 200 elephants. And uh that tipped the tides, and Porus won. That's a lot of elephants. It is a lot of elephants. Um Holy crap. A lot of trained elephants, I think, is like the most important part that we remember here is that they are trained to be war elephants.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Like, how many elephants are there now?

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Uh, this is why they're going extinct. Yeah, probably. Okay. Because we used 200 of them in one war. Um, in a paper titled Hannibal's Elephants, Christian San Jose says, the elephant seen for the first time must have been viewed with fear and amazement. The bellowing, the use of the trunk, the obvious eyes cause terror in enemies.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Yep. Truth. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

So, like I was saying, if you picture the oliphants from the Lord of the Rings, it kind of has similar imagery. Um, they had saddles that carried baskets on their backs to hold multiple archers. They had plate armor on their face and a protective covering of some sort, probably like leather or something, um, for their trunks.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

And like a huge spike from their head.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Um, which honestly is even more terrifying than just like seeing a regular fucking elephant.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Like, and it has people who were shooting at you. That's just a lot, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

It is a lot.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Um, it's believed that Hannibal used a now extinct species of elephant called the North African elephants.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Because they were a lot bigger, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:09

I think so. Um that I think that they were they were bigger than they were like in between the Indian elephants and African elephants, I think.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Because like I feel like when I was doing research and I would see pictures of like of the elephants, like the size, like people on them look so much smaller than what it would be now.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah. I don't um I don't know if it because it they haven't like found it yet. Exactly. But they're fine, like they have found um toe bones. So they're try I know that they're trying to see if they can extract DNA from that and see if they can help and if that could actually help bring back the population of African elephants. Oh, that would be good. It would be good. Really cool. Yeah. Um, but we don't really know yet. As of the articles I read, we don't know yet. Um Hannibal's Journey was a masterclass in logistics. An elephant can eat around 220 kilos of fodder a day, which multiplied by 7,000 meant daily consumption of some 8,140 kilos. In other words, the Punic General developed with precision and thoroughness a food storage and distribution system where elephants played a primary role. In short, Hannibal's feat as a general must be understood from logistical parameters, not just the mere fact of getting the packaderms through the mountains. His suggest his success in logistics and planning is evident in getting the elephants onto Italian soil, right, San Jose?

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

So, like getting them there at all was pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, it yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

I mean, across winter mountains.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Um literally, elephants are not supposed to be in winter.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah, they're not made for that. Um, and figuring out how to feed them and his whole army and all that kind of crap. Like the amazing tactician. So Hannibal trots on over the Alps with his elephants and infantry and cavalry in 218 BCE.

Early Victories And Lake Trasimene Trap

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Um, it was obviously surprising because it was December and there are elephants descend descending from Frosty Mountains, and Hannibal has his first two victories. First at Ticinus. Okay. Yep. Uh, where they retreated. Um, and then at Trevia, where he lured 30,000 Romans, Roman troops into an ambush and killed all of them. Yes. Again, how do you have so many people to be murdered and continue this shit?

SPEAKER_01 18:32

I feel like 30,000 people just wiped out your whole fucking city.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah. Like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Oh my god. That's crazy. Oh my god. So, so far, so good. Besides losing all the elephants at this point, either to battle or starvation.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Um I mean, you just took an elephant through the fucking Alps.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Yeah. Then he was like, you know what? I did the damn thing. Everyone will remember me forever now. And I'm like, I did Hannibal, I did remember you. And now I'm here to tell the world.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

But you and your fucking elephants. And the Romans were like, holy shit, dude, this guy is nuts, but so are we, we're not surrendering. Rome has three armies to head off Hannibal. One headed by consul uh Servilius, who guarded the east at um Emirinium, which is Romini today. Consul Flaminius guarded the center at Erecium, or modern Arezzo, and the third defended Rome on the west coast at the end. Um he was somewhere over there. Anyways, he doesn't matter because uh no matter what path Hannibal chooses, he was going to be between two armies. That's their point. So that they're like, we're gonna get them between two armies. Um Hannibal somehow is able to figure out kind of which one is going to be the weakest link, and he decides to go on the eastern route and skirts around pretty closely Gaius Flaminius Nepos. Uh, which is the right choice. Flaminius decides to set his army off to follow Hannibal, but not too closely. Because cavalry could turn around. Get them. So he's like, hang back, guys. Um, so they don't really know what the fuck's going on because they're not following close enough or having anybody go close enough. So they're just going. Hannibal makes it about halfway down the Italian peninsula to like Tresamine, which is north of Rome, just barely south of Veracium, where he met Flaminius and between some and somewhere between 28,000 and 40,000 troops. This makes no sense to me. Like, how do we not have that number closer? I don't there's there's still things, like even like modern warfare, but they're like, yes, somewhere between 100 and 100,000 were missing or dead, and you're like, where did they go? You're like, I'm sorry. How is that gap so wide? Yeah. Like, it's not like, yeah, we lost uh, you know, a couple hundred here that you lost how many hundreds of please tell me how this happened.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

It makes no sense.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

How did you lose 10,000 people? I don't understand. So so the only thing they will give this is that it was so long ago that maybe they just like there's just different Yeah, exaggerated it, there's different counts. Um maybe maybe they're like, yeah, 28,000 is probably more realistic, but then their historian was like 40,000 men, who knows?

SPEAKER_01 21:16

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

So, Flaminius, because he was lollygagging behind Hannibal, uh, thought he was still following an army that was like a at least half a day ahead of him. Um, but that's not what happened. Hannibal's forces were hiding in the hills along the lake. The hills helped the invading army. Do they have eyes? These ones do now. Hiding in the early morning fog. Do they have This is why you have to wake up early.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Do they have mutants?

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I mean, honestly, at this point, with how many like frostbitten body parts they had to cut off, they probably looked like it.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

I mean, I'm just gonna go out and say maybe. Not quite hillbilly mutants, but they probably weren't pretty. Um So early morning fog and pretty decent tree coverage, so they were just hiding up in the trees. It wasn't until it was too late that the Roman army realized that they had marched into a trap. In 217 BCE, Rome had their asses kicked again at the Battle of Lake Tracimane. Feminius's men were backed against the lake to the south, ahead to the east, there was light infantry, because there's no more elephants, and behind them to the west were Celts from Gaul who joined Hannibal to fuck shit up again.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Um, fun fact, all Gauls were Celts, but not all Celts were Gauls. Celt is the broader term for the group of tribes that shared language and culture, and Gauls are a particular tribe. Yes. In that. The Celts were like everywhere. Yes, question. I have to pee. Are you serious? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Sorry, Connor! Sorry, Connor!

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Sorry. I don't know if you can hear, so now I'm gonna talk shit about her. Fucking has to pee right in the middle of my story. Just getting to the good part. So she doesn't even care. Who couldn't care about this? So purple. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

And we're back.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Okay. So, in under three hours, at least, at least 15,000 Roman legionnaires were dead and the rest were captured.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Nope, that's not a real number.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

And that's at at least, because we don't even know how many fucking people there were. Um, but a lot of them were dead. Anyways, Hannibal only lost 1500 men. You he's doing good work. Um, even though the Romans were having flashbacks to 390 BCE in the Gallic Sac of Rome, Rome refused to surrender or even negotiate the exchange of prisoners. Okay. I have a note that says if you ask about the Gallic Sac of Rome, then I could tell you about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Can you can I know about it? I noted if she asked. I need to know.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Don't do this to Don't do this to people.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Not unwillingly. So the Gallic Sac of Rome was within the Gallic tribes of what is currently France, and it's um and as far east as the Caucas Mountains between Europe and Asia beat the shit out of Rome and then force them to pay a lot of gold to get them to leave.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Okay, got it. Does it hurt Rome? Does it hurt? I'm really glad I know that now. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

And the Caucasus Mountains? Hey, between Europe and Asia? Wouldn't that mean that they're people of color? Why do we use Caucasian for white?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Anywho's this baby came from Who say my baby is this? That baby came from the mountains of Caucasus.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

So even though Hannibal just destroyed one of their armies again, Rome was refusing to capitulate, and Hannibal's like, fine, let's have some fun. This be is stick. Yes. Okay, so he's gonna have some fun now. His army eventually On a disco stick. On a disco stick. Yes, okay, got

Cannae And The Perfect Encirclement

SPEAKER_02 25:06

it. His army eventually destroys about 400 towns and captures several large cities. A real tour of Italy, if you will. Um then go Oh my god! They have that at Olive Garden. A tour of Italy. It's it actually goes through all the pasta dishes from the cities that Hannibal took over. I knew it. It's a lot of food. I knew it. It's for a big party. An army, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yes. Yes. Oh ha ha! Okay.

unknown 25:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

You should probably not let me drink anymore.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Then comes the battle at uh Kennay in 215 BCE. Another victory for Sir Hannibal. Yes. While Flaminius was trounced because of his caution, the consoles Varro and Emilius would suffer a similar fate, but due to their overzealous attack. Um, Hannibal had a real knack for figuring out which console would be the easiest to break. Um, somehow. Like, how do you know these things?

SPEAKER_01 26:04

He's just a fucking genius. Like, he is literally a mastermind. Yeah. Yeah. Insane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

So he picks him. Um he picks Flaminius to lure uh to like Tristamane because he knew lagging he would lag behind, which would give the Carthenagens time to establish an ambush. This time he knew that Vero and Aemilius were hotheads and thought they had huge dicks because they had armies of superior size. Like Did you just say huge dicks? Yeah. Big slingers.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

He said it so casually.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

I just like, wait a second, what the fuck? Okay, alright. Continue.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

As it turns out, it's more like guys with big loud trucks, you know, compensating for something. Their armies were compensating for some things.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

So remember what I said? If I was a dude, you'd have a big truck. And a very small penis.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

I feel like I'd have something reasonable.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Alright, yeah, I think you'd be good.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

It would just be, you know, nothing special.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Bigger than mine.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

So, anyways, the Romans headed into the Battle of Kenine with about 90,000 men to Carthage's 50,000. So they have almost double the amount. So Vera and Amelia are like, we have trained soldiers. We're very good at soldiering. We're gonna totally win this. These guys are a bunch of barbarians, and Carthaginians watch us, murder them all. We're gonna trounce them. That's not how it went. Uh, we can and should, I have it, um, post the battle maps on our Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Um, but let me describe it as best as I can because it kind of like I saw when I was doing my research, I saw the maps. The way that it went?

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah, but yes, please subscribe. Um, hold on. Um, I just tried to drink this with the lid on? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Closing time. Put down your beer. I'm going home. All right. Maps. Go.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Uh okay, so the Romans march up in lines like a good army with the cavalry on their left. They're facing a staggered kind of like pyramid of Carthaginians that are stacked out like behind one another. So the point of the pyramids at the Romans. And they have little spaces, and then their allied cavalry is on both sides. Rome's like, get them, boys, and they charge right at the pyramid tip. EEE go the Carthaginians, falling back in layers, while the cavalry goes around for the flanks. No one's paying attention because they're like, oh my god, look at they're running back. The Romans push and push and push into the infantry, making them bow backwards into an arch instead of the pyramid they started with. It's looking pretty good for Rome, but like I said, they lose. Yeah. Ow. Well, because Hannibal is a fucking smarty pants. Um, he was well prepared for the hubris of these Roman leaders. Um, he would have he had a feeling that they would just dive right in, confident in their superior numbers, and lacking the foresight, that maybe so many men in one area would be a bit tight. Um so the Romans pushed the Carthening Jans into a bowed formation around them. And suddenly it's kind of harder to swing swords around and not hit your friend.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Um, making numbers not only just like a moot point, but like an actual hindrance to the Romans, and slaughter's inevitable.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Um, Hannibal's cavalry's swing around both flanks and cut off um a possible safe retreat, and so they are just like encircled now. Um 70 to 80,000 Romans and their allies were dead within that afternoon, and Hannibal only lost 6,000 men.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

70 to 80,000. Okay, somewhere. I'm just gonna say, because we've said it so many times, those numbers don't make sense to me. So anytime you say a number now, everyone listening just know that I have no fucking idea. Because it's too much for me. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

It's it's insane.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

I'm done bringing up the numbers. Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And I mean, and even just like in comparison to each other, 70 to 80,000 Romans and allies were dead, and Hannibal only lost 6,000 men.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

What is our population in this city?

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I don't want to say where we live, but give me one second, let me look. Uh, a little over 9,000.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

That's fucking crazy. Where did all these people come? Okay. Continue. Battle of Cannae. I'm so annoyed.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

So lost in this battle where the consul Emilius Vero gets away somehow. I just picture him like crawling between the legs of people. That's what I would do. A little bitch to get out.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

I accept it 100%. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

25 superior officers of sorry, Roman officers, and 80 senators.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

It's a lot of senators. All moited.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Moited. Um, so this is the last like major battle in the second Punic War. Um, and just so we know I'm literally only following Hannibal through Italy. There are battles in Iberia slash Hispania as well. Not as many, not as fantastic as these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, that's um this was like the battle of battles ever.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Insanity. Um, but there were enough to prevent more Carthaginian troops from coming to reinforce Hannibal. Right. So it was just enough to kind of be a pain in the ass. So, as you just said, the last major battle was in 215.

Rome Regroups And Zama Ends It

SPEAKER_02 31:21

But the second Punic War doesn't end until 201. So, what the heck is happening during those 14 years without being major?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Bullet points. Bullet points.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

In about 20 months, Hannibal has wiped out 175,000 Roman and Italian soldiers just wandering and desable.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

We'll walk 500 miles and I'll walk 500 miles. Sorry, just a murder. 175,000 Romans and 175,000 more. God, I hope they think we're funny.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

You know what? I'm cracking up. So he's just, you know, going around messing everything up. Um, Philip of Macedon, which is Macedonia, which is was becomes a province of the Roman Empire, decides that now's a good time to start another front against the Romans in Illyria. Truly it is. They're already like, what the fuck? Too many places open? As anyone can tell you, a two-front war is not good. A three-front war, Iberia, Illyria, and Italy. Huh. They all start with start with I.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Fun. Okay. And Iberia and Illyria kind of rhyme. They do. Um so even though things are looking grim, Rome refuses to give in at all. Okay. I don't they somehow have population enough to just allow this.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Are they just constantly fucking? Like, I don't understand. Where's the thing?

SPEAKER_02 32:46

How do they have the time?

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

And how are you producing enough that they're at any sort of age to be a soldier? I don't get it. I don't I don't either. They refuse the peace that Hannibal offers and bans public displays of mourning. They don't negotiate and they recruit new armies somehow. From somewhere. Um, but Rome decides not to get into any decisive battles anymore and just cobbles themselves back together.

unknown 33:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Rome uses her naval fleet to re uh to limit reinforcement from both Carthage and Macedon. Macedonia. I don't know. Because if you say Macedonia, I don't know. Anyways, they're all s they also pull some sort of diplomatic magic and get Philip into a war with Greece as well. Um, and these moves help Rome turn the tide of the war from 215 to 205 BCE. Rome never has fewer than four two Legion armies. Two Legion armies have anywhere from 8,400 to 12,000 men, and it just occurred to me that maybe that's where the difference in the numbers comes from. What do you mean? Because the legions, two legions could be could differ between 8,000 8,400 and 12,000 men. So maybe they just say they had two legion armies, and you have that gap of however many people could be there.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, but like still, if you're going into battle with four fucking legions, like where is where are these legions getting all these people?

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Well that I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah. I mean it makes sense what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

I'm just like I still don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

I yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

So 212 was Rome's peak mobilization with 25 legions and a massive flat massive flat of over 200,000 men, massive fleet of ships with 200,000 men, which it used to fuck with Iberia, Africa, and the Aegean all at once. Okay. 211, Hannibal marches against Rome itself, but he's unable to sustain a prolonged siege because it's a well-defended city, and um it but it wasn't enough to distract Romans from heading straight for Africa itself, so that was a good thing. Um but uh by 209, Rome has inroads into Iberia and has regained most of their Italian cities. Boo! 207, Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal is killed in battle. In 206, Sissippo Africanus, who is a Roman dude, completes his conquest of Iberia. 205, Hannibal's resupply of fleet is destroyed. 204, Sissipo Africanus invades North Africa and wipes out a large army of Carthaginians and Numidians. The final stand is truly in 202 BCE, when Sissipo and Hannibal face off at the Battle of Zama. Hannibal was able to deploy elephants again, but they were young and hastily trained, which made them fearful. Um, and it was actually just more harm than good. Yes. Yes, it was. Rome lost this time, the numbers are switched. Rome lost about 2,000 soldiers, and Carthage lost about 10 times as many as them. Right. Carthage tried um to sue for or they sorry, this final battle causes them to sue for peace, and they pay a huge cost again.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Um, Carthage surrenders all territory outside of Africa, agrees to only wage war with permission from Rome, and then pays 10,000 talents over 50 years. Um, it doesn't say if it's silver or gold talents at this point, which apparently is different. So it ranges from about uh 1900 US dollars to 29,000 US dollars. Okay. That's still a lot. It's a lot of money. Rome is now master of the Western Mediterranean.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Master of the house. That is I hate that song so much.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Sorry. Love you, love that movie. Hate that song. Oh.

unknown 36:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I think I hate that lady's voice. Just be over here. Just shut up and drink your beer.

Third Punic War And Carthage Falls

SPEAKER_02 36:42

So, again, there's a good amount of peaceful years between the end of the Second Punic War and 201, which was 201 BCE to the start of the third Punic War in 149. This is much shortage. Um, Hannibal is elected um Suffet to help end the horrific financial depression Carthage basis. He reforms the tax system, stabilizes the economy. Carthage is able to kind of like reinvent themselves as more of a flourishing commercial hub as opposed to an imperial capital. Yeah. But a worse number's fine, they don't give a fuck. Yeah. Just leave us alone. This is where the last stand of Carthage, also known as the Third Punic War, starts. Um, Carthage is just content being Carthage and being a commercial powerhouse. But Rome sees this and decides this cannot stand. Roman merchants want to be the most profitable, and Carthage is standing in their way. Huh? So even though Rome has like fucking everything, and Carthage is just living its life. You can't do that! Exactly. That is exactly what Rome said. Yeah. Verbatim, it's too much. In 150 BCE, the Numidians, who were the previous allies of Carthage until Xamah, and now they're Roman allies, they decide to attack Carthage. And Carthage resists, obviously. Yeah, they're like, hey, thought we were like, um, can you not fuck with us? Um, but this armed resistance breaks that treaty with Rome. Remember, they say, we'll ask permission. Which sounds like some CIA bullshit to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

They're asking, they have to ask permission to fight the country that made that treaty with them.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

They will have no armed conflict without permission.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

You can't start a fight with us knowing that we can't do that's rude. That is some CIA bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

So Rome is like, oh, gotcha, bitch, you broke the treaty, now we'll kill you.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

I fucking hate you, Rome. I I don't actually. I'm so sorry. I hate Rome in 200 BCE.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Yeah. Tricky bastards. Tricky fucking bastards. Banana Republic bullshit. Carthage is like, I'm like, dude, please stop. Here, you can take 300 hostages and our arms as requested. All the hostages were children. Beachy deads. So they gave over 300 children and all their arms.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Why children? And their arms, like their physical arms.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Cut off all their arms. They're just running around armless.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Armless children?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

No, no, no. The children had to carry the arms. Oh shit, that's crazy. It was a wild time. I wish I was there to see that. It was it was pretty traumatic. I bet. Hard time. Fucking idiots. Okay. So Rome is like, thanks, guys, but now y'all gotta move 10 miles inland. Knowing Rome knew that they couldn't accept that, couldn't possibly accept that. Because their cities on the coast has been for hundreds of years and is the basis of their commercial empire. I it's not really even, excuse me, an empire, but like that's their livelihood. Like their port. That's their livelihood. Okay. And that's the only thing they have left. And because they pushed the matter, the refusal allowed for an all-out all out. Do you hear that accent?

SPEAKER_01 39:48

Go back to Canada, bitch.

unknown 39:49

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 39:51

In 149 BCE. Just some, you know, fuck shit. Essentially, the Third Punic War was a three-year siege on Carthage. It wasn't really like a war in the way that the other two were.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I know nothing about the Third War, so okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

There's not a lot to it. It's really super short because literally Carthage is just like, please leave us alone. And they're just like defending their city because, like I said, it's the only thing they have left. They don't have anything else. Um, in 146, Rome finally gets through. So three years later, they finally get through the fortifications, led um, led by Sismo Milianus, who was the adopted son of Sispo Africanus from the end of the Second War.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

So Sismo or Scipio? Scipio. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Thank you. Uh Sis Sissipo.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Sissipo.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Sissipo. Uh so, anyways, he was the adopted son, and he's just here to be like, hey, remember me? They're like, no, and he's like, remember my dad? And they're like, oh, okay. That was a long time ago though. So um, they broke through once they got into the harbor. They got into the harbor, and then it was just like horrific. They went house by house eliminating Carthaginians. The savagery lasted for six days. So for six days the Romans went through, just took everyone out? Yep. Just like banging down doors. For why? Burning and slaughtering people.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Why?

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Don't you need those people to pay you your fucking That's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

So that was Carthage. That was their kind of mode, was like, we don't want to kill everybody, we want them to work for us.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Rome, there's just like a bunch of fucking psychopaths.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

We're just gonna kill everyone. Yes. That's okay. Alright, good for you, Rome.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

So in a city that was estimated to be over a quarter million people, only 50,000 were left to surrender. A quarter million people, that's a lot. 200, so that that would be 250,000 people. Yeah. And now there's and now there's in six in six days, there's only 50,000 left.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

I don't understand what the point of that was. Like, just to be like, hey, we're Rome.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Just to be fucking assholes, I feel like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Stop it. That's fucking gross. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

I know. Like, come on. Uh so and then these survivors were sold into slavery. Their city was raised completely, like, knocked to the ground. I mean, not completely, because there's still parts of it left that you can actually go visit. Um, but it was raised and the territory was officially named a province of Rome. Those who were enslaved were sold throughout the Roman Empire. Um, but the key buyers were the Numidians, their former allies.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Make it make sense. Make it make sense.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

So, um, this concludes the Punic Wars and unfortunately Carthage. I like I know I can't even like so I like wanted to say this the whole time because I was like, 'cause we kept saying like the third war, and I just can't get over it's bitchy. Exactly. Like, I was like, you can't even. It's like it's it's a three-year siege, and then they murdered most of the people there.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Like I always forget the difference between because I'm stupid and American, the difference between a genocide and a holocaust. What would this be?

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Uh genocide. That's hard because so genocide is like the wholesale murdering of the people, and then a holocaust is like a scorched earth kind of erasure of an entire people and culture. Yeah. So it kind of is like reminiscent of a holocaust, but there were 50,000 people left who they didn't wipe out and like purposefully didn't, not like happened to survive, but purposely didn't that they sold into slavery. So maybe more genocide.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Yeah. It just makes no sense. Like, I don't understand. I mean, I'll never understand like the ins and outs of like war and like all of this stupid shit. But just like, why take out like a whole community that's essentially like funding you?

SPEAKER_02 43:51

I guess at this point they had enough. They got all the silver mines, the tin mines, all that shit that Carthage had had had, and I'd be And then they had also won wars with Illyria, and I think they eventually won some against the Gauls, too.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah. I don't know, dude. I just work here. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, but like seriously, like off Rome. Like you won. You won. After the second one, you won.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

And they've been like hasn't Rome been like the fucking empire for like ever at this point?

SPEAKER_02 44:24

They started in Five Something as their republic. Yeah, so they've been, I mean, like, they've been established. Well, they got like their first overseas stuff, their islands, at the beg at the end of the first Punic War. But like, yeah, like you got good stuff. Why do you continue to come back and fuck with these people?

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, you're established, you're wealthy, like they've just kind of gone, okay, man, fuck ever.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

We're just gonna like they're literally complying with you. They're like not gonna die. That that's all you want to do is like not die. Yeah. And then I don't know why the Numinians attacked. It doesn't ever say, but it's very interesting that they were allies with Rome and then just happened to attack somebody that Rome had a problem with.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Knowing, like, excuse me, Rome knew that they couldn't quote unquote enter into without asking permission first.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah. And if they did, then they could break the treaty. They did that shit on purpose. Okay. You know what? This wasn't so long ago. Are you sure this is real?

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Welcome to the Twelve Lights. No, like, so oh, I read somewhere that Rome was like afraid that Carthage was gonna come back up.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

No, I think they're good, dude.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Yeah, I was like, they just buy and sell shit now. Like they're just brokers. Um, they didn't win either prior war and seemed to be like, you know what? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Rome was just mad that they didn't die and had to do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

I know they were real pissed about Hannibal. That's a whole adventure.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Man, well Hannibal's just really cool. I'm excited for he is really cool. I'm excited for his uh his bio.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

So, anywho's, we'll leave it there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

That little cliffhanger?

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Yeah, that little hanger. It's not a cliffhanger. No, everyone died. Um, it's like a really disappointing show of how mankind is bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Final Thoughts And Listener Stories

SPEAKER_02 46:14

So um please send us your stories. Hopefully they're better.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Um yeah, don't tell us a story about how you were in Rome in 200 BCE and just decided to murder an entire uh city. Actually, I have so many more questions if you are.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Um Queen of the Damned. Uh so you are history. Uh, and if you guys are open to it, I'd love to hear your your stories. Send them to that's a macaroni podcast at gmail.com. Your stories, your talent stories, your favorite stories from history, anything you want us to cover. Um praises and accolades, always welcome. Um, we want to hear it all. Let us know in your email if we can share your name and your preferred pronouns so that we uh don't mess it up. Um, we also have our Instagram up. It is thatso Mac underscore podcast. And that is our only social. So please go find us there. Email us your stories, like and share. Good comments always. We only accept love and positivity. Right. Have a good one. Bye.