Episode 10: Snakes On a Boat and Two Fugitive Generals - Punic Wars: Part 3

Hannibal Barca’s life reads like a chain of impossible decisions: swear a childhood oath to hate Rome, ignite the Second Punic War, haul elephants across the Alps, and then gamble everything on a battlefield trap so effective it wipes out tens of thousands at Cannae. We walk through the story with all the messy details intact, including what Rome does when it refuses to take the bait, how Hannibal keeps his army alive by living off the land, and why one brilliant victory still isn’t enough if your own government won’t send reinforcements.

Then we pivot to the man Rome builds into its answer: Publius Cornelius Scipio, later Scipio Africanus. Because Roman sources preserve more of his life, we get to trace how a patrician education, battlefield nerve, and raw political theater turn him into a commander with a plan bold enough to bring the war to North Africa. Along the way we dig into leadership style, morale, propaganda, and the surprisingly modern idea of winning allies by treating captured cities well instead of burning them.


Subscribe for more deep-dive history, share this with a friend who loves ancient Rome and Carthage, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What part of Hannibal and Scipio’s rivalry stuck with you most?

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Transcript

Welcome Back To The Punic Wars

SPEAKER_04 0:00

All right, well, I know you already know about um the Punic Wars and the leaders involved, but would you like to hear more? Always, yeah. Okay, cool. All right, so the first dude that we're gonna talk about, who you've already talked about, um, is Hannibal Barca. Publius Publius. Publius. Yep. Cornelius Scipio.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Hey my doodle dandies, this is Kelsey. And I'm Sarah and we're that's so macaroni. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Um, so the two leaders that I picked are our main dudes from the second war, because that was like the most famous slash dramatic slash ridiculous war of the three, even though the third one doesn't count.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

But whatever. What do I know? Not a lot. Slaughtering people is not a war. If no, it is not. Oh shit, where'd my notes go? There they are.

Hannibal’s Origin Story And Blood Oath

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Okay. All right. So the first dude that we're gonna talk about, who you've already talked about, um, is Hannibal Barca. Um, he was born sometime in 247 BCE, uh, in North Africa. Um you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Just the amount of like planning and meticulousness, like he knew exactly what he needed. That is very Capricorn energy.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

It is. I'm gonna say he was. Probably. Yeah. I mean, we'll never know his actual date of birth, but like I think it's sometime in December.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

December 25th? Christmas baby. This is before Christmas, thank you. It was Christmas before Christmas. He's the original.

SPEAKER_04 1:59

Oh, okay. Christmas baby. That might upset some people. I'm gonna move on now. Um so you've already kind of like touched on it in the last uh episode about what his name means. Um, so it it means grace of Baal. That sounds right. Okay, cool. Uh Baal is an ancient Phoenician god. Barka is denoted that his lineage um came from a long line of Northern African arist uh aristocrat nope aristocrats. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

I felt like you were gonna say aristocrats.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

I think I was, because I can't word.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

I was kind of excited.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

Uh dumb guess. So he came from a long lineage of um North African aristocrats.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Lions, if you will.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Exactly. Um, and his ancestry is said to go back to ancient kings of Tirae in Lebanon. Is that what we decided how to say that word?

SPEAKER_03 3:08

I think we just said Tyr. Tyr? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

Yep. Um he was born into a family with the ruling class of Carthage. Um, his father was Hamaklar Barca, and he was a prominent oh god, I forgot how to say this already. Carthaginian. Carthaginian leader. I'm better with numbers than I am words.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Like those like cartoon aliens. That's what I felt like. Take us to your leisure.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Um, so his dad uh led the conquest of Spain, resulting in the first Punic War, which you've already talked about. According to Greek historian Polybius and the Roman Okay, cool, and the Roman historian Livy, Livy? I like Livy, it sounds cute. It does sound cute, and I thought Livy was just fresh. Oh, I'm sure. I mean, well, no, because I mean he's Roman to like maybe not.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Maybe not. But also somehow he like got a cute name. Got a cute name, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Okay, well, according to these two historians, uh, Hannibal's father took him to Spain at an early age and made him swear eternal hostility to Rome. Like, what in the actual fuck is that? Like, that seems a little dramatic.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

I don't know. From childhood, Will and I have taken blood oaths to hate the same people.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

And you wonder why he hates everyone. Oh my god. Alright, well, I mean, his whole life was basically like being trained into the military to fight against the Roman Republic. Um, and he worked his way up the ranks when his commander, Hans Druble, was assassinated. Wow, my it's just I don't think it's Hans. Hans Druble.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Hans Drupal.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

Hans Drupal. Oh, my German came out. Hans Drubbel, I like that better. This is diehard. Yes, yes, it is. No, my German came out, sorry. I'm going home. I am home, but I'm going home. So ha are you sure? Haas druble? No. There's no way. Are we both Googling this right now? I'm pulling out my notes. Okay, you're right. It's Haas. I hate you. Um never question me again. Alright. Haas Drupal. Nope. I like Hans Drubble better, but it's fine. Not very.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Hello? Not very. Not very smart of you.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Dad.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Thank you, Tim.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Shut up. Go ahead. Um, okay. Well, he was assassinated in uh 20. Nope. 221. I can't do this. You can't. You've got this. Oh, okay. So he was- You should have eaten that donut I brought you. I should have. Okay. I'll probably eat it later. Um, okay, so he was assassinated in 221. So the army proclaimed Hannibal at the age of 26 commander, and he took over the Carthaginian war machine. Uh, one of his first moves um in charge was to take siege of the Spanish town Saguntum, which I remember we had discussed how to pronounce that as well. Um, and threatened to take the Roman-friendly government coup that was organized in 219 BC. Um, and this is what started the second Punic War. So this motherfucker was raised, just pissed at Rome, and was like, all right, we're gonna start another war. Yeah. I mean, I get it, I guess, but I don't know. I probably wouldn't have done that. Um You're not a Capricorn. I have a Capricorn placement. Where does it shine through? At work, usually. Um well, this is his work, okay? Yeah. Hating Rome is his full-time job. Um, during this attack on Seguntam, no Romans were killed. Only Roman allied Spanish people were killed.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Seems kind of fucked.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

A little bit, a little bit. Kill the Romans too. Maybe there was equal opportunity. Maybe there just weren't any there at the time. It was just like a bunch of Spanish people who supported Rome.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

I don't know. I wasn't that's the only answer I'm accepting. Okay. Because how could you hate Romans your entire life? And then not kill. And be like, you're fine, I'm gonna stab that guy. Like, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Do you support the Romans? You do? Ha ha! Right in the stomach. No, I don't know. But in order for Hannibal's war against Rome to begin, he would need permission from the government. Um, so the council had reached out to Rome's ambassador to avoid another war because, like, do we really want another war?

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Maybe. No. Hannibal seems pretty aggro, though. Like, he might be able to get it done. I mean, like, him and we've learned a little bit from the first time. Yeah. That's true.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Um, not enough. Not enough, yes. Not a little. You know what? Okay, no, I'll get to that later. Okay. I just had ADHD moment. Never mind. So the Romans came back and ordered the Carthaginians to stop all plans for expansion and to hand over Hannibal Barca. This was not possible to do, um, mainly because of the huge support of Hannibal's legions of troops and the fact that he was in Spain at the time. Desolate. It was desolate. It was desolate. Thank you. That's the first helpful thing you've said in like the past two days, my dude. Thank you for not judging me.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

I'm doing my best. I don't think it's really like, go get him. And they're like, we don't even know where he is right now. Like, this is the BCE. Yeah. We don't know what the fuck's happening. He left years ago, and we have no fucking clue what's underletter. I have no idea what's the cyberletter.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Sorry. Um, but yeah, so since uh he was gone,

Elephants And The Alps Crossing

SPEAKER_04 9:20

um, the council ultimately refused, and Hannibal was given the go-ahead to begin his march through France and through the Alps to get to Rome. Um, which you talked about. Because it was the most epic shit I've ever heard about. Is there a movie about it? Because we should watch it.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

I'm sure there is. We'll find one. I'm sure there is. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Um look up moves about him.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

Okay, so while you look that up, uh he had a troop of infantry forces of about 4,000. I feel like that's supposed to say 40. And a cavalry of 12,000. He also had something that would take everyone by surprise. Guess what it was?

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Hmm. Yes. Elephants? Yes. More elephants. By the way, yes. Yes, there is. Why are you laughing? Because there is there's a couple. So there's one from 1959. Okay. It's called Hannibal. Makes sense. A historic epic starring Victor Mature as the general. Okay. There is oh, there's an upcoming Netflix film. Oh my gosh, is this real starring Denzel Washington as Hannibal? Interesting. I'm 2,000% here for that. Um, and then there is a 2006 TV movie titled Hannibal, or sometimes Hannibal, Rome's worst nightmare. I mean, he kind of was. Yeah. Who's in that one? Um, just looking at his face, no one you know. Um that's unfortunate. Sorry, dude.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Um, so it sounds like we have two movies to watch, and then a third when it comes out. Yeah. Okay, cool. Wonderful. Love it. All right. Um, so these elephants were shipped from Central Africa and India. Just a little fun fact. Um it was thought that the journey through France, um, at the time it was known as Gaul, um, because like there was a lot of quote-unquote unsettled peoples. Um, and they were pretty resistant against Rome. So it was thought that it was possible they would also be resistant towards Hannibal. Um, so they thought like during this trip through Gaul, they would get attacked um because they would be a decently easy target. I mean, they're just walking through France, like I'd probably throw shit at them, you know. Um, but it actually wasn't that bad.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Because they also hate Rome. They do, yes. They're like, Where are you going? They're like to fuck up Rome. They're like, we're coming. Did we just become best friends?

SPEAKER_04 11:50

Yes. Forgot to ask, do you like guacamole? Um, once they had made it through France, the biggest threat was crossing through the Alps, um, which you touched upon as well. Um, so the troops they faced blizzards, avalanches. Um, most of the men had never even seen snow before because you know they're from North Africa. Mediterranean and North Africa. Exactly. Uh so many of them died from frostbite, and a lot of the elephants slipped off the mountain and like fell to their deaths. I'm so sorry I had to tell you that. Um, I was very sad when I read that, just by the way. So um, R.I.P. elephants. Um, once they had reached the highest peak, um, they were actually able to see like their destination of Rome. And like at the time, since everyone was dying and all the elephants were, you know, everything was dying, everything was like, literally, everything and all the elephants, yes. Um, when they saw like Rome from the peak, Hannibal was able able to give like what was left of his troops, um, and actually several thousand men that had like joined along the way because fuck Rome. Yes, exactly. Fuck Rome. Um, he gave them like a really good pep talk. Terrible.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

What's terrible? Maybe the fact that so many were dead. That is terrible. It's just like a little behind the curve.

SPEAKER_04 13:15

Mainly the elephants, though.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Yeah, yeah. That is terrible.

SPEAKER_04 13:18

Um, they did not ask for that. Um, yeah, Hannibal gave them like a really good pep talk. Um, and then they were like all jazzed now, and they're like, Yeah, let's go fuck some shit up.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

And they did.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

Uh so once they had reached the borders of Italy, uh, the Roman general pub Publius Publius Publius. Yep. Cornelius Scipio. I had a fun time with that too. I'm just gonna say it all of the different ways just to be on the safe side.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

It's just so close to pubic. It's way too close. And I'm not mature enough to not think pubic every time. No. Like pubis.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Exactly. That's what I was doing. Like, I was giggling to myself when I was writing these notes. Um, so this general publius uh was caught off guard and had to redirect his troops while they were on their way to Spain. So, like, they were trying to get to Spain, and he had to be like, nope, guys, you gotta turn around now because they're fucking here.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Sam was like surprise, motherfucker.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Yep. Um, so while the

Raids In Italy And Rome Stalls

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Roman army waited for reinforcements from Sicily and southern Italy, Hannibal took over the town of Clastidium and replenished his weapons and other supplies. And he also dismantled an entire Roman legion in the town of Trebia. Trebia? With winter coming soon, uh, Hannibal decided that Clastidium was the perfect place to keep his troops and wait out the weather. Um, so they actually stayed there till the spring of 217 BC. Um on the move again, he and his troops again. I just can't wait to be on the road again. I want to watch Shrek. Um his troops began to ambush any and all cities. Hello? What was that? Not a clue. Did he turn himself off? Maybe. Alright, he's like, bye, bitches, you're annoying. It's weird. Anyways. How rude. Um, he began an ambush on the city of Eturia. Here, he was able to annihilate any Roman legion that would try and confront them. So he just took fucking people out left and right. Um me or Rome?

SPEAKER_02 15:44

I feel like it's Rome.

unknown 15:46

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

It was like I have my days where I am. Oh god, I'm having flashbacks. Anyway. Now I'm confused. Where am I? Oh yeah. He's just annihilating everybody.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Annihilating everybody. They're just running against the brick wall, yeah, named Hannibal.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Yeah, and this just made it It is ancient. It is ancient. Good job. So proud of you. Oh, he knows things. Um, so I mean this made it like super easy for them to just like literally walk up to the like gates of Rome and be like, hello, we're here. Were you expecting us? We have a reservation.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Knock knock.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Um, so during this time, like on their way to like the gates, uh, Hannibal and his troops ravaged the towns of Apula, Semnium, and Capania in hopes that Roman soldiers would respond. And then Rome didn't respond, even though their citizens were like, Hey, um could you respond? Yeah, like I don't know if you know this, but we're being like fucking murdered out here. I have a really hard time right now. We're not doing good. Um, but the Roman council was like, no, we're gonna have uh, we're just gonna take little engagement. We don't wanna stoke the fire.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Yeah, there was a guy, remember, and I really wish I had written it down, but one of the like the leader guy at the time was like, we should really just like play things calm and safe.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

Yeah, he was like the the dictator at the time. I think I might have his name down here. He was they called him like the Delayer or something like that. Like Yeah, he just didn't want to do anything.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

He was like, I think we should just sit here though. And they're like, okay, but like lots of people are dead.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

They're like, Yeah, we're lost.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

It's better if we just don't be reserved about this. And it's like, maybe you could that's cool. Maybe we could be just like a little bit more engaged though. No, that's silly. What do you say? Neil. No, you're not getting on this weird religious shit again, are you?

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Oh god, I don't want to do that again. We are gonna turn you off. If you say apocalypse, I swear to god. Rapture. Well, yeah, so literally this dictator, I don't think I wrote down his name. If I did, I'll say it eventually. But um, he was like, nah, I'm willing to sacrifice the villagers outside the walls. I don't give a shit. Everyone's fine in here. And that's what matters most, really. It is, yeah, because that's how you uh win wars, apparently, is just letting all of your civilians die.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Well, you know, when you have evidently like a million people like it really doesn't matter. He keeps throwing people at this. He's like, What was it? And yeah, I have another 70,000 kitchen. That's upstairs. You're not making any sense.

SPEAKER_04 18:37

That's upstairs.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

I'm not gonna engage with your stupid words anymore.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

We're not in the kitchen. Um, well, so since nobody was responding to this, uh Hannibal just literally seized any Roman town he could and just fed his troops and supplied them with whatever they need whenever things started running low because nobody's stopping you. Yeah. Did he get bored? Maybe. I feel like I would.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Like if I was just out like fucking shit up and no one was like responding to me.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

Yeah. And I'm literally doing it so I can get

Cannae And The Trap That Worked

SPEAKER_03 19:10

a response.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

Yeah. And they're like just a big bully. Oh my god, he's a big bully. Yeah. No, he probably got bored.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Let's be real here. Like, I would I would get bored.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

Yes. Um, yeah, so he started looking for another town to like replenish his resources for the troops, and he came upon the town of Canne. Canne? Canay. Cane. Cane. Um, it was one of the major grain deposits for the Roman army. Um, and he was going to use this city as a means to feed his troops, but also cut off the food supply. You're listening. No, you're listening. Rude. Um, he was gonna cut off the food supply to the Roman army, which I mean, that's a good fucking idea. Yeah, like if you eat it, they can't eat it. Exactly. Um, so in 216 BCE, Rome sent an army of 80,000 to confront Hannibal and his troops.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Finally, fuck finally.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

It's only been like what three, two, three years.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah, where I've just been pillaging every fucking town, taking whatever I want. My job title is general, and theirs is soldier, and we're just wandering around. Wandering around, taking the Olive Garden tour of Italy. Yes, the Olive Garden Tour of Italy. Where I'm sure they had macaroni and ran into some weird ass British boys. That makes sense to me. I could see that they stuck a feather in the Hannibal hat and it's like, that's macaroni. It sure is. It's also how he learned. And Hannibal stabbed them to death.

SPEAKER_04 20:44

Oh yeah. He was like, what is this language you're speaking?

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Don't touch me.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Why are you dressed like that?

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Get away from me.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

I'm not here to be your friend. Um, so now that he was like finally getting a response, like he was like super stoked to get the engagement that he'd been waiting for, uh, Hannibal moved his army to the flat west bank of Kennay, where he utilized his cavalry. Um, and you talked about this in the second Punic episode. So I won't get into a whole bunch of detail, which I don't think I do anyway. Um so this tactic worked to his advantage, and as soon as Roman soldiers crossed into the open plains, the horsemen charged right into them. Um, and the constant minor attacks and harassments broke the Roman supply chain, cutting them off from basic resources such as water. Um, you know, because I don't know if you knew this, it's like the middle of the summer when this is happening as well. It's like it's kind of hot. Um to find water, the Romans had to move to a nearby river, which led to an easy attack by Hannibal's best pike wielding infantry. Could you imagine that? Just some dude coming at you with a fucking pike. Oh my god, is this Vlad the impaler?

SPEAKER_03 21:59

I can't imagine. So, like we the game, did I tell you what we were playing yesterday?

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Were you playing civilization?

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Also, some of the people that you get are pikemen.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Oh, that's fun.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

It is really fun, actually. It's very fun. I love like playing the early civilizations and like hearing them like, oh, I know what pikemen are. I use them all the time to kill barbarians. I am correct.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

That's how you do it. That's how you do it. Um so pretty much to end this battle um in Can A, Hannibal executed his master plan. He is a Capricorn, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Uh he's told he has to be in his journal. Master plan in like glitter gel pen. Oh god, I what kitchen. After your episode, we should go make sure that your kitchen's on fire or something like that. There's something happening up there.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

I don't think you're you're rude. I think he's being rude. This is the second time in two days he said failure. I'm done. Excuse me, sir. I graduated college and other things. And I do things.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

You want it?

SPEAKER_04 23:07

What? You want it? I already have okay, I'm ignoring him now. Back to Hannibal and turn him down a little bit. And his Capricorn master plan. I'm so upset right now. I'm gonna need a drink after this. Alright, so he told his army to fall back and retreat, which led to the Romans thinking they had gained the upper hand. So they started going forward and they walked right into Hannibal's trap, where his cavalry swiftly surrounded them. And this resulted in the loss of 70,000 Roman soldiers. Oops. Yeah. This also resulted in the loss of the reputation of the Roman army as like from being like prestigious. And many allies began to support Hannibal and Carthage because of it. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yeah, I'd be like, oh my god, what the fuck happened? First of all, you just let them like run wild through your Italian allies for years. And literally did nothing about it. And did nothing. And then you come in here with what was 80 to 90,000 men. Yeah. And now they're gone. And you got them all murdered. He says, I don't like it. I don't that they didn't like it either, which is why they were like, Yeah, fuck you, Rome. We're gonna be part of Hannibal's team now. I would. Yeah, me too. I totally would.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Um, so after the victory of this battle, uh Hannibal requested help from the Carthaginians council, and the council decided not to send him reinforcements or troops or money, and they told him, suck it up, bitch. You're on your own.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

It is an interesting uh tactic. Why, why? I don't know. Like, like you almost have them. We're literally you're right, we're right there, you're right there.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

We're literally like winning. I don't understand why you wouldn't. I don't know. I don't know, but Hannibal was on his own. Um, so in the town of Capua, Capua? Capua. Um, he decided to make this town his base for his troops, um, because it was out of reach of the Roman protection. So it was like where Romans didn't really give herself.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Capua? No, no, no, the year. Oh fuck, I don't know. Okay. Write it down. Maybe it's during the time where Well, it's it was after the Battle of Canay. Yeah, but then he partnered he partnered with Philip of Macedon at some point. I can't remember when. And there was things going on in Iberia, yeah, that kind of like distracted from being able to help Hannibal. Yeah. Um go away. Um I wonder if that's why they said like we literally can't help you. Because that doesn't make any sense. Like, why so I'd be like, so sorry.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

You're doing great, but uh no, I I'm not sure. I just though like after that battle, they were like, we need to like hang back for a little bit. Um, so they used this town. Um, and the town like eagerly let them in because they had no support from the Roman capital. And so they were like, fuck you, we'll let them in then, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Yeah, I was like, I mean, honestly, what are you gonna do at this point? You're gonna tell them no. You just like watch this whole massacre happen in one day, and you're like, oh, and they're like, hey, do you mind if we sleep here? Not at all. Yeah, please come in. I was actually preparing your bed before you even asked.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

I saw that you were coming this way. Please don't use your pikemen against me. Yeah. I saw what happened at the river. Hurt me. Um, yeah, so no. The Roman capital was like, fuck this town. And so they were like, please, Hannibal and your troops, we love you. Um, and then also during this time, just a little fun fact, Hannibal lost an eye.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

To do two.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Um, presumably conjunctivitis. Oh, that sucks. Yes. So oh, that sucks. Can you imagine though? Like, Hannibal is already like a scary motherfucker, and now he's coming at you with one eye. Fuck that. If I saw this man's in real life, I'd be like, he's going to kill me.

unknown 27:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Yeah, now he's got an eye patch.

SPEAKER_04 27:25

He probably didn't even have an eye patch. He probably just like had a like a hole in his head. That's unsanitary.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

I don't think they had eye patches back then. Okay, well, he lived after this, so you can't just have a hole directly into his head. I think he has a hole in his head. They no.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

I don't know, dude. I wasn't there. All I know is that he lost an eye. And that is your fun fact for now.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Um I need to know about ancient nucleation.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Alright, I'll do an episode on it. I'll figure it out. Take me all the way back to like Oh no. Who's hiding?

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Who's hiding? Maybe it's Hannibal's eye.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Timothy? Who the fuck is hiding? I'm done. I'm going home. Anyway, I'm just gonna pretend like that didn't happen. So Hannibal and his troops uh stayed in this town trying to rebuild, and while this was happening, the Roman general executed a plan to get Hannibal to leave and return back to Carthage. Essentially, the plan was that they were going to attack the city of Carthage in hopes that Hannibal would come back to defend his hometown and give up his siege on Rome. Are you recording?

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yes, we are recording. Can you stop interrupting, please?

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Can you stop interrupting, please? Also, let me check to make sure we are recording because now I'm Oh my god. We are, we're good. Oh my god. Dude, that made me fucking nervous.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

She said Robert.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Robert's not allowed in here. Um, anywho, so even though, like, you know, I don't want to know who Robert is. Maybe it's his fucking lover in the afterlife. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Okay, well, you tell me who Robert is and I'll let you know if it's worth knowing. Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 29:04

Yeah, so even though uh Carthage Council was like, we're not gonna fucking help you, Hannibal decided to go home and defend his his hometown from Rome. So their plan worked and he returned. Um, he returned home in 202 BC. Um, and then upon Hannibal's return, the Roman general Scipio, um, had Sissipu uh had many men in the field reporting back to him. So he was just like using like little spies everywhere. Um, and he used this information to burn down many encampments. So that way when Hannibal returned home, he came home to like a trail of fire and destruction. Because Rome was like, You're gonna fuck

Zama And Hannibal’s Defeat

SPEAKER_04 29:50

shit up, we're gonna fuck shit up, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Um Carthage, maybe you should have sent some people.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

Yeah, maybe you should have maybe you should have helped out Hannibal, just like a teensy bit. Um, so now that he's home, the two generals were ordered to like hold one final conference in attempt to a peace treaty. Um, the negotiations did not work, and both sides were intent on an quote unquote apocalyptic battle.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

An apocalyptic battle.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Yes. Alright. Yeah. Um, this happened on October 19th, 202 BCE, in a town outside of Carthage called I know you know this. Forgot Zama. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Uh the Battle of Zama was not good for Hannibal. Uh his cavalry was almost immediately taken out, and the war elephants did not work as he hoped, which you touched on. Uh, they completely avoided the Roman soldiers. The elephants did, and the Romans even blared horns to scare them, and it worked, and some of the elephants actually got super fucking scared and turned around and ran back at Hannibal's troops.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Yeah, because I mean, when they're young and completely untrained, and there's just screaming and somebody's latched to your back, and you have an additional spike from your forehead and no idea what's happening.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

You're gonna run. Yeah. So that's exactly what happened. Um, so with this, uh, Hannibal admitted defeat, and due to his catastrophic loss, I typed lass. Catastrophic laugh. Yes. Uh he also had to forfeit his prestige as a military leader.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

Uh. After all that. I know.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Um, after being forced to give up his command as general of the Carthage army, he refused to give up like being a part of like Carthage's military, yes, aristocracy, government, whatever. Okay. I think I just forgot to put that word in there because I was like, what did he refuse?

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Um honestly, if you've been working your entire

Hannibal The Reformer In Carthage

SPEAKER_03 32:00

life from like eight years old on to be this, yeah, and they're like, you can't be that anymore. Like, I think I'd also be like, No.

unknown 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

So at the age of 46, he changed his career path and became part of the legislature of Carthage.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Do you want to hear his pledge? Pledge allegiance to Carthage.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

No, like his campaign pledge. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

So stupid. Um, uh, he ran a pledge to clean up the corruption. I literally wrote in parentheses, leave space for Kelsey to roll eyes. So to clean up the corruption and make the bureaucracy of Carthage more efficient. And apparently this worked, and he was voted into office. Um, while in office, he reformed the Carthaginian council, making sure future elections wouldn't occur through direct election, um, through the citizens, and not corrupt co-option. Co-option. Co-option. I'm just gonna keep saying until it makes sense. Basically, like corruption of like like the council.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

You mean like the electoral college? Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Like something like that? Yes. Like where we could just use direct vote? Yes. Instead of having corrupt individuals pretend to care to evaluate our votes. Yes. That's essentially something like that. Yeah. He was ahead of his time, you know. Well, anyway, uh, he also, okay?

SPEAKER_04 33:36

That one from 200 BCE is fucking stupid. False. Um, he also imposed term limits on the council members and discarding those who were previously tenured. So he was like, You've been here long enough, get the fuck out. And term limits? Vincent. Who's Vincent? Is that what he said? Can you stop it? Anyway, with all his reforms, he was actually able to rein in like the bureaucratic waste so well that even with the terms of surrender from Rome, Carthage was still able to pay like their treaty amount and the Carthage economy was still stable. Like he ran that shit. But Oh Hannibal. I know, he's just a clever man. Uh, with his success in the legislature, legisl. Legislator. Can you talk for me for like the rest of the fucking day? Because I don't know what words are. Like, uh, what are those puppet people called? Puppeteers. No, the ones where they ventriloquist. Oh, please don't put your hand up my ass. No problem. Okay, thank you. Glad we're on the same page. Okay, so with his success in the legislature, uh, the Roman Senate was like fucking pissed. One, because like Carthage was a con like economically okay, but also they were outraged that he was still at large for committing so many attacks on Roman soil. Well Carthage isn't Rome, and they probably care a lot less. Yeah, for real. Rome. Exactly, for real.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

They don't have to care about the things you care about.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

Nope. Um, so the Roman Senate literally decided to like go back to middle school and became like little girls, and they used a rumor that Hannibal supported the Greek king Antiochus III. Uh you know what? I have a Greek last name and I still can't fucking pronounce that shit. Um, so they took this rumor to council, who was all too eager to blame the whole war on Hannibal because you know he just came in and like fired everyone and like made their lives so much more difficult. Um, that the council used this to comply with

Exile Across The Mediterranean

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Rome's demands for his extradition. They were like, you know what? We also don't like him. So here you go. Um but he was one step ahead of them and he fled to the Lebanese city of Tyri, Tyre. Nope, I forgot what we said. Just tear. Thank you. Um, and then moved to crying. I don't think he's crying, I think he's laughing at this point. I would be. We're about to go on an epic adventure with this man until his death. This one-eyed man. This one-eyed man who does not have an eye patch, it's just a hole directly into his brain, yeah. Yes. Um, so he went to Tyr and then he moved to Ephesus and ended up collaborating with the Greek king Antiochus III against Rome. So he literally made that rumor true.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

He's like, you know what? Good fucking idea.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Mm-hmm. Yep. So he began with you. He began overseeing the Greek military because from what he saw, they would not stand a chance against the Roman military. So he drilled the soldiers into shape and oversaw the development of a special fleet.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

No. What? I want to talk. No, this is not your time. You're not saying anything worth listening to. So you're just saying names at this point. Do you want to talk? Say something worthwhile. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:24

Add to the conversation, good sir. Um, so he oversaw the deployment of a special fleet uh that would be used to land troops in southern Italy. Uh, they were immediately defeated, though, in the Battle of Thermopylae. I know how to say that one. Good job! Thank you. Remember that from like fucking sixth grade. Um, and completely undone in the Battle of Magnesia in 190 BC. So those two battles just took out this Greek troop. Um, after this failure, he was on the run again because the king was like, You fucking bitch. You said you were gonna help. Um, so he found refuge in Armedia under King Artaxius, but he was still wanted in Rome, and as part of King, the Greek king Antiochus, because he fucking lost. The Romans told this king that he had to, he was ordered to find Hannibal as a consolation prize. Knowing this, Hannibal escaped to an island that seemingly shunned Rome, the island of Crete. And it was basically an island full of pirates and outlaws.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

He's like, Me too.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Yes, exactly. So he was like, Okay, I think I'm good, guys. I finally found my people. I think we're gonna be alright. Um, so he settled in Gortinia. Gortina. Gortina, that sounds good. The Romans soon found him, however, in Crete. Uh so he once again fled and ended up in the ancient Anatolia, which is modern-day Turkey. Why is everyone up in Turkey?

SPEAKER_03 39:09

It's a good place to hide out. I guess so. What's the place people go to today that doesn't extradite you? Switzerland? No. Switzerland will extradite you. It's in Eastern Europe, so Oh, Lebanon? No. I think it's Lebanon. I don't think they care. I think so. I feel like it's earth with the sound. So I'm gonna look it up.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

Okay, I'm gonna keep talking.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:29

Um, so in Antolia, this is where the manhunt seemed to have end for him. Like he was like, oh cool, the Romans aren't looking for me anymore. Um, but in the town of Bithynia, King Prusius, he was a king of a region in Asia Minor, welcomed him because he was the he was known as the habitual thorn in Rome's side. So this king was like, that's you, fucking come in, please. We love you. Um and this king was at war with the Roman sympathizer King Eumenis II of Pergamon.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Pergamon?

SPEAKER_04 40:11

P-E-R-G-A-M-O-N.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

And where is this? Where's Pergamon?

SPEAKER_04 40:17

Somewhere in Asia Minor.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Yes. Um, so now that he was amongst friends who were sympathizers because, you know, they also hate Rome, um, he began working for King Prusius overseeing early victories against Pergamon. This

Snake Pots And Final Escape Plan

SPEAKER_04 40:35

is actually so during this time, this is where one of the first known biological warfare tactics occurred. Oh, yeah. Okay, so it is said that Hannibal directed the soldiers to throw pots of venomous snakes at the enemy. And it worked. As everyone began to panic to get away from the snakes. By the way, this was on a ship. He threw pots of snakes on a ship.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

I would absolutely do the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 41:08

So everyone was like, fuck, and like abandoned deck and like ran away from the snakes. So this is the first documented like biological warfare tactic.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

That makes sense to me. It's wonderful. I love it. All right, it's great. Throw snakes on the boat. Make them jump ship.

SPEAKER_04 41:25

Not a plane, a boat.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

A boat. Motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking boat.

unknown 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:31

Have them all jump ship. They probably don't really know how to swim that well. Oh. Problem solved. It makes sense to me. And it worked. It's not that much effort. It fucking worked.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

Um, even though this was a genius tactic and it worked very well, um, King Prusius was defeated. And in his defeat, he was demanded to hand over Hannibal as part of his surrendering terms. But he gave Hannibal the courtesy of letting him flee. And this was his I mean, I don't know if this was his actual quote, but this is like what he was pretty much he said. I'm not doing the Romans dirty work, so you can go. So began another manhunt. God, what's that movie with Leonard Catch Me If You Can? Catch Me If You Can. Yeah. That's I feel like that's pretty much what's happening right now. Actually, based on Hannibal, which is modernized. Dude, I fucking told you we were about to go on a fucking journey with this man.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Oh, Hannibal.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

I know. Um, unfortunately, the manhunt ended. Uh, he was found and captured in ancient in an the ancient town of Libesa, which is modern day Gebsi, Turkey.

unknown 42:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

Okay. Um sounds good. But true to Hannibal, he would not be taken back to Rome, and he planned his final escape. Yes. Uh, so he carried a bottle of poison on him for the last few years for this exact situation. Uh the Romans broke down the door and he drank his poison, and his last words were quote, let us relieve the Roman people of their long anxiety, since they find it tedious to wait for the death of an old man. End quote.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

And he I like that it's just like the last barb at Rome. So they're standing there and they're like, because he's he's old at this point. Yeah, 65 is fucking old for it's look, it's old to be running fr running around the fucking world and be being chased down. It's pretty fucking old.

SPEAKER_04 43:35

Yeah, but like in ancient times like this, and with a missing eye.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yeah. With probably an unclean enucleation, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

And so many wars, and like he's somehow survived this. And then he's like, I guess you guys couldn't just fucking wait, as you can see him old as hell, and they're like, Yeah, this isn't quite as gratifying as I would hope it would be.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

Yeah, you just was like fuck you but yeah so that's Hannibal for him are you ready for our next

Scipio’s Rise In A War Zone

SPEAKER_04 44:05

general uh no I just want I just I just want Hannibal thank you Hannibal's just so interesting you know yeah okay so now we are moving on to the Roman general Sissipoo yep Siscipio Africanus we actually know a lot more about him because um Roman people kept track of lots of things I mean so do the Carthaginians but then Rome burned it down I think we have to remember that the winners are always assholes continue please yes that's true that's a good point um so he was born in 235 BCE into the one into one of the most powerful patrician families in Rome. Okay the Cornelia family um it had more politicians and military leaders than any other family um and there were two influential branches of this family so it's the Lentuli and the Sipions Scipions yes um yes pretty much yeah it's exactly what it is um and then I think I told you in the last episode that the Roman Romans used like specific like three names so they used I am so gonna butcher this and I'm really really sorry prepared okay trianomina which means three names yeah to name the members of the family so the Priya Nomen is a personal name that's your first name and then there's a just a gnomon which is your family name and the cognomen which is the family branch. Okay um so each branch tended to use the same personal names the Scipioans used mainly pubilus publius published yep pubic got it got it uh naeus and Lucius so Scipio's full name was Publius Cornelius Scipio which was very common in that family um he was born a few years after the Punic the first Punic war in Rome um and not much is known about his childhood and adolescence doesn't matter it doesn't matter um you only start mattering once you do something important exactly oh you're born that's it okay moving on we'll see what you amount to yes uh most of what is known about Scipio comes from the early Roman historian Titus Livius and the Greek writer Polybius which also covered he covered Hannibal as well um it is said that Polybius personally visited many battlefields and was able to talk to witnesses um such as Gaius Lelius who was a friend and subordinate of Scipio so this dude like found people and was like hey tell me all about this man he's really a journalist pretty much a journalist of his time yes it is thought that being the child of a wealthy patrician family he received an extensive basic extensive and basic made no sense to me but that's what it said. Okay um education from tutors at home um because as a male he was expected to know basic knowledge of history mainly history of Rome um as well as the arts uh the purpose of this education was not only for knowledge but also to ensure that he he that they became vironas which means good man or one who would fully understand his or one who fully understood his obligation under the Mos Mariorum there we go uh the social and moral code of Roman society good I guess sure um he was also expected to undertake military training of course um that included the use of weapons and horsemanship as well as learning military history like tactics and um learning about previous commanders that's so fun way to go Rome way to go how come I never got that education because you weren't a male an ancient Rome yeah um you can get did you know that you can get a um certificate in piracy from MIT yes I did know that so I could at least still do that you could live in Crete with Hannibal good I'm gonna I'll take my certificate to Hannibal and be like look I'm on your side I'm pirate too and I'll wear a fake eye patch that I can still see through you know like where there's like little lines in the teeth and he's gonna be like he'll be like actually can I use that what the hell is that thing it's called an eye patch handy you should get one not mine though not the you should find your own so being a part of a patrician family meant he was expected to marry as a duty to ensure the continuance of the family boys were eligible to be married because the dads are the ones that set the shit up boys were eligible at the age of 14 guess what age females were eligible at 12. Yes good for you I mean I guess that was your destiny in ancient Rome bummer information but yeah I know it is um Scipio was married to Lucius Aemilius Paulus another member of a patrician family they had two kids publius who was super sick and quote unquote useless according to Roman society because it was boy well and Lucius um he was 17 when the second war began and he was expected to go into battle with his dad what about that adopted son I learned nothing about that adopted son.

SPEAKER_03 49:59

This other son must have been a fucking disappointment too then he's like or maybe that was he was the adopted son and they just started telling people that he was adopted because he was just no because the adopted son was the one who took over and the who besieged Carthage and the third one. So he's able to do fucking something maybe that's why he adopts him he's like you seem competent on like this kid.

SPEAKER_04 50:21

Well what about the other one?

SPEAKER_03 50:22

The other one was fine according to they just stopped recording. They're like okay and we're done second one's a dud too go find another one.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

You're really bad at reproducing um go pick an orphan this one will do cool so where am I oh yeah so he was goes with daddy to do something he does go with daddy so he goes with daddy to the battle of Ticinus is that right I don't know I don't know and you know what it's so long ago none of them can fight me on it.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

That's true. They're not here anymore.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Yeah too um so Rome lost 3000 men um and Scipio's father was wounded and was cut off from the Roman force which meant um either certain death or capture and you know his dad is like the dude right now he's the general so Scipio saw this and charged the encircling force around his father um and then his charge I just think this is so weird his charge managed to scare the force and they broke up so he was able to rescue his father. Makes sense like if I was a force of cavalry or a trooper whatever and I saw this one dude coming at me.

SPEAKER_03 51:36

No there's a certain amount of like maniac though like the guy who um stormed Normandy with j with a broadsword the Scotsman who came up in a kilt a broadswork and he just goes like straight to like the German bunkers and he's like and they're like oh my god because this man has to be out of his fucking mind to charge into a modern war against fucking artillery and he's just screaming at you in a skirt with a sword. Yeah like there with a sword there's just a certain amount of maniac that you just can't really you know deal with I'm obsessed that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 52:15

I want to be friends with that guy. I'll have to look him up okay um okay yeah so he scared these people because you know he's a maniac in a skirt with a sword. Um so he was able to rescue his father and since his father was the serving consul this made Scipio a hero. Um so his father wanted to award him with the corona civica which is a civic crown okay um that's like the highest military val valor but he refused it saying that rescuing his father was reward enough. Vomit okay yep give me the crown for real I want that goddamn crown um he was soon promoted to the role there's so many fucking Roman words and I'm just like I hate but I want to like include them because you know it's interesting. Um so he was soon promoted to the role of Tribunus tribun nopeus sure militum which is military military tribune tribunis sounds the best I think T-R-I-B-U-N-U-S Tribunus that's it that's the word okay yeah so it was a he directly served with Legatus with Legolas yes with Orlando Bloom um and the so that person is like the overall commander of like the entire situation okay um so Scipio also took part in the Battle of Cannae and managed to make it out alive um during that battle I we have both already mentioned uh that Hannibal destroyed three Roman armies totaling in 16 legions and upwards of 1500 to 200 000 men it is estimated Rome lost 20% of its adult men in this battle is it just the amount of people again yeah and like where are they coming from 20% like of what's left of your adult

Scipio’s Shock-Troop Leadership Style

SPEAKER_04 54:20

men specifically men? Yes that's what's left but what's considered an adult man in ancient Rome? 12 and up 12 and up there you go so they only had children at this point. A bunch of toddlers out there um so once back in Rome the 20 year old Scipio addressed the Senate uh basically disagreeing with their desire to make peace with Hannibal and then he addressed the current dictator I knew I wrote this motherfucker's name down the current dictator Lucius Casilius Metalis. Mm-hmm so he basically just like barged into their meeting room and just had a sword in his hand oh my god he's like that Scotsman. And he's the sword in his hand to you so he just busts down the door with the sword and he said I swear that I will neither desert the cause of Rome nor allow any other citizen of Rome to desert it. I insist that you Lucius Salius and the rest of you present take this oath and let the man who demures be assured that his sword is drawn against him. End quote so he's just like fuck you Lucius you don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

You're gonna be a wilting fucking flower I'm gonna cut you down.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

Yeah so um obviously this outburst um scared the shit out of the Senate.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

Yeah and clearly you can't be a wilting flower you can be like no we're not gonna do that because then he's just gonna cut you down like you just said I'll kill all of you.

SPEAKER_04 55:51

Yep. Um yeah they scared the shit out of him so even though they didn't really have the authority to do so uh they did as he said they were like okay we'll listen to you so in 213 BCE he stood for the position of Aedilus Curulus okay uh which is the role responsible for keeping public order in Rome and he was elected unanimously and then in 211 BCE he stood for the position of proconsul which is like the regional leader for territory outside of the Italian peninsula controlled by Rome.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

And once again he was unanimously elected and he was now a military commander. Um he came up with

New Carthage Strategy And Mutiny

SPEAKER_04 56:35

a plan that he kept to himself because he felt that if he told anyone like they would shoot it down and it wouldn't happen. But he came up with a plan to s take siege on the main Carthaginian Carthaginian thank you no problem uh city of Hispania okay okay yes he learned that none of Hannibal's troops were within like 10 days to New Carthage or Hispania so he moved a troop of 25,000 men they just lost so many people where did they get 25000 more something like 20% Jesus if all of these die you still have 60% of your adult male population. I just it blows my mind. So yeah he sent out that troop to take siege uh the attack was successful he plundered the stores and the treasures and freed any of the hostages um but instead of pillaging and like burning shit down Scipio was very kind to the people of the city uh his plan was to persuade the allies of Carthage to transfer allegiance to Rome by being nice. A nice guy yes um during this time he gained a lot of territory and won many battles against the Carthaginians Christ uh but he also became very ill and was essentially bedridden for a while and this led to the rumor of his death in Rome which led to a mutiny where the soldiers who were upset they hadn't gotten paid yet and the fact that they didn't get to like loot and pillage New Carthage they threw all of the commanding officers out of the camp and took control. Sometimes I swear I can still hear his voice uh once he recovered from his his illness he literally traveled to this particular camp where the mutiny was happening to confront them and instead of like automatically like executing them you know like you're supposed to like one might yeah yeah he offered them he offered them an amnesty makes sense yep I I don't know whatever he's just a nice guy yeah he's just a good guy he's just a nice guy yeah um so he returned to Rome in 205 BCE and stood for the role of consul and was immediately and unanimously elected so he was the head bitch in charge. And his first plan of action was to invade North Africa and the Carthaginian homeland.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 59:17

Yes so in 204 BCE he had built an army large enough uh so they sailed from Sicily to um the Carthaginian city of Utica which is present day Bizert in Tun S Tun Tunisia thank you Tunisia

Scipio Wins Africa And Earns A Name

SPEAKER_04 59:35

um this plan forced Hannibal to return to Carthage now we're kind of like coming back full circle but um yeah the two meet. Yes and the Battle of Zama again I guess right again yeah the battle of Zama began which we already talked about um and Scipio's victory ended the second Punic War essentially um when he had returned to Rome in 200 BCE he was granted triumph and was given a new name um in the event of a notable military success Roman leaders were awarded a special Agnoman a victory name in recognition of his success in Africa he was given the name Africanus and this is what he's known as today Scipio Afrikanus after the battle with Carthage was over um they surrendered Scipio was very generous to his troops so each soldier was allotted two acres of land for each year they served dang like he's just a really nice fucking guy. In 199 BCE he was elected um censor which like maintained the public morality in Rome um some people suggest he should have been appointed dictator for life but he was like he literally said this to them he was like sometimes I think I should try meth but then I'm like that's better not yeah so he said no for him uh he withdrew from politics after Cato the Elder convinced the others in Senate that Scipio had betrayed Rome by not destroying Carthage and capturing or killing Hannibal. So this old dude was just pissed for no reason.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

What did you do Cato?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:24

You're the first time you've ever come up here exactly um so fucking Cato he went on one last military campaign in Scipio did in 190 BCE serving under his brother Lucius Cornelius Scipio in a battle against King Attianacus. So he battled Hannibal again um Cato this motherfucker attempted to bring Scipio and his brother to court saying they appropriated money from King Attiochus I'm just never gonna say it right fine um and they were taking bribes from him in 800 185 BCD. The case was the case never went anywhere but this put the nail in the coffin for Scipio to retire to his large estate in Liturnum.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

He was like fuck you Cato I'm just gonna leave now I don't need your bullshit yeah give me that crown.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:22

Yeah um so not much is confirmed of his life after he retired but he apparently died within two years of his retirement um so in 183 BCE at the age of 52 some say he died from illness contracted during war others suggested he took his own life um he was buried in an elaborate tomb in Liternum uh that was said to have had the inscription of all right bear with me here in Grata Patria Meosa Quidin Ababus which basically just means ungrateful fatherland you should not you shall not even have my bones so he was PS he held on to that yeah salty thing by the way I think he's a Virgo case care.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

That's fair why do you think that um they're defined by practicality loyalty and analytical mind um but then also have a strong focus on organization and helping others okay I can see that that makes sense to me um last little fun fact and I'm done okay uh Scipio and Hannibal died the same year.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Oh buddies

Shared Death Year And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_04 1:03:35

buddies death buddies death buddies and if they both died by taking their own lives the same year too that'd be interesting. That would be interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:44

Maybe they should have been friends and not enemies you know when you're raised one way um so hopefully that is the end of our Punic War saga that is the end of our Punic War saga whether or not this is split into two pe parts or not this is the end. So this is either part three or part four and we're done now.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:03

No this is part three we're fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:05

Okay. Um but anyway yeah I learned a lot more than you did when you're researching the next episode uh-huh that's exactly what I was gonna say when I had my ADHD moment I am so excited to get into that so um remember to like us uh do you like people um review review the podcast leave us a nice little comment if you have anything negative to say just keep it to yourself yes please um if you have any stories which everyone does please share your town story your personal story your family story uh your history to us at that so macaroni podcast dot or sorry at gmail.com um follow us on Instagram at that so mac underscore podcast um and just just love us like we love you please okay thanks okay bye bye