The GOAT Debate: Legends, Legacy & The Greatest Ever | The 2:00AM Crew | Ep. 53

In Episode 53 of The 2:00AM Crew, Rick Hierro and Jason Enrique tackle one of the biggest debates in sports: Who is truly the Greatest of All Time? From basketball to baseball, football, soccer, hockey, golf, tennis, and beyond, the guys break down what it really takes to earn GOAT status.

Is greatness defined by championships, statistics, longevity, dominance, cultural impact, or simply being the best player you've ever seen?

You'll hear Rick and Jason debate some of the biggest names in sports history, including:

🏀 Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James
⚾ Babe Ruth vs. Willie Mays vs. Shohei Ohtani
🏈 Tom Brady vs. Patrick Mahomes
⚽ Lionel Messi vs. Cristiano Ronaldo
🎾 Serena Williams vs. Novak Djokovic
⛳ Tiger Woods vs. Jack Nicklaus
🏒 Wayne Gretzky's untouchable legacy

The conversation goes beyond numbers as they ask the ultimate question:

Can there ever truly be one GOAT... or does every generation create its own?

Expect passionate takes, hot debates, laughs, and plenty of moments that sports fans will be arguing about long after the episode ends.

Who makes your GOAT list? Let us know in the comments. 🐐

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:45

What the hell happened in my video? What is it?

SPEAKER_03 0:47

No, you're good. You gotta see it.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

What is going on now? What is going on now? Welcome, welcome, welcome to the 2 a.m. crew. 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

At our normal slot. Tuesdays, well, 9 30 today, but Tuesdays at 9 is our normal slot. We're here. We're gonna have some different conversations today. Some very good ones, some very bad ones. Uh, who am I to judge? Uh while I'm here, I am your co-host, Rick H.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

And I'm joined by co-host, Jason BK.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

And I'm joined by the best hair in podcasting. Yeah, along with the best beard in podcasting.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Poppy, look at that. One of the ghosts.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

What kind of beard oil do you use on that, baby? All natural, some mango juices, some it's this is nothing but uh this is no product. This is just like uh berries, whatever he says in um uh coming to America. Jason, how have you been? Oh uh what is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:49

He says something uh on Astroperm or something, Astroperm or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Is Mama call him Clay? I'ma call him Clay.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Mama called him Clay, I'm gonna call him Clay. So um, before we start our topic of conversation today, sure. Just want to check in, see how you're doing, how's everything? How have how has life been for you lately?

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Hmm, how has life been for the best hair in podcasting? Let me see. Uh, not too shabby. Uh still working at the new job, going great. Uh working on the finishing touches on the Jason Enrique show. Sorry for the delay, people, but as the kids say, life be life, but it will be coming out soon. I've just purchased the uh intro music, so that's a step in the right direction. I have my notes ready to go. So when it's all said and done, it should be up and running. And people be pair be prepared to tune in for some real, raw, honest truth. That's the best way that I could describe it.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Oh that's perfect, perfect. Um I've been okay. It's been a rough, beautiful weekend.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

A rough, beautiful weekend. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

No, it was it was no no no. It was a beautiful weekend. I got to go. Um, and there's something wrong with my the headphones. I don't hear you in the headphones, I hear you on the speaker. It's kind of a problem. Here we go. How about now? So it yeah, now is much better. No, I had the uh setting on. It was a beautiful weekend.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

I saw the I saw I think so. You went fishing.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yes. So Friday I went to go see uh I went to go suffer in silence, and I saw the Mets game with my brother and my well father-in-law. Um at the job, there's a tradition where they go almost every July or end of June to a game. Everybody goes together. Um, it's a great time. It's an even better time if the team is good. Um well, boy, oh boy, man. I uh I kind of figured out why the Mets are horrendous.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

And this is the one against the Red Sox, correct?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

That's correct. And it and it's this has nothing to do with Steve Cohen, it has nothing to do with David Stern. So I went to the stadium, I was there in person on Friday, and uh what I witnessed was a display of embarrassment, humiliation, and um there's a word I'm searching for, but I'll get to it. I got to the stadium, and the stadium was it wasn't empty. Um, and the fans were happy to go to the ball game. Uh I guess people went with a little bit of optimism, but nobody was upset, nobody was angry, nobody was, you know, on the way there, you heard I heard an old man he was venting to his son, and he was going to his son, uh, he was going with his son to the game. Nonetheless, he's still going to the game, right? And the fans were enjoying the ball game and not really caring about what's going on on the field. So this is the Met fans. So I'm talking about the Met fans. And they're I think they're the reason why the team is the way it is. Uh Cohen called them out last year. They showed up for him. They continue to show up to the stadium. Um I didn't see any brown bags over people's heads, I didn't see any people disgusted. Um, I saw people excited about fireworks. You know, the it was a the ugly, it was an ugly game. And um people were sticking around and waiting to see the fireworks. So I'm calling out the Met fans. I'm one of them. I was at the ballpark, I did my job, I was holding the team accountable. I was by the way, Andy Green is a horrible manager. Um I was holding the team accountable, and I was also I'm holding the front office accountable. And I think as fans, we need to um voice our level of you know frustration and because this is a worse scenario than the willpons. The will ponds at least didn't they had an excuse, they they didn't have money. Uh Cohen has money, it's just yeah, they're just as bad as the Will Pon you. So we did that, then the next day we had an early fishing trip. That was amazing. We caught some, we we had a good catch. Um then I got to spend time with my kids. So it was a great summer weekend with my family. Um it's beautiful. So I I'm I'm taking life by the moments, I'm enjoying the moments, and I'm trying to stay present in those moments. I like it. I didn't do too much video and picture stuff at the game. I didn't do that at the fishing trip. I didn't do that. Um I my wife did a couple videos of me on the diving board, which was hilarious. But uh trying to live in the moment and um moments that need to be captured, I'm capturing those.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Yeah, um, I I I agree with you 100% because um I didn't have anything quite related to your weekend, uh, and as as you displayed it, but I did have some fun myself. Um, I did go to one of my friends' uh houses to watch the the Argentina game. Uh, he is also a proud Argentinian, so I'm pretty sure that he was really excited about what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

That's pretty cool. The world coast has been pretty good, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

And then uh I also happened to be in Jersey City, so I went to this rooftop uh called Parley's uh Pauly's Brick Town or Brick Oven uh rooftop, whatever it was called. And I got to see a band that has actually been on the first class, second place podcast previously called Wake Up Motors, and they were really good, it was a really good show, very talented people, and also fellow Colombians as well. So it was really good to see good vibes, good music, good people, and it was just another reminder of life can be really beautiful if you just plan the spontaneous moments here and there.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Yeah, I mean, I've been that's it's been a thing for me lately. I've been just trying to stay present in those moments, and um even when I'm tired, there was a moment this weekend where you know I I was a little reluctant to do some activities, but yeah, I said eff it and I did it. And um just trying to enjoy my life, man. I really um June was a lot for me to take in. And uh I'll get into this one of these days, but um for a different perspective moving forward. So yeah, uh, so there's been a lot of talk about goats, right? You mentioned Argentina, uh Messi being renowned as one of the greatest uh soccer players of all time. I wanted to ask you, what's your let me put this up there before I do it, what's your definition of a GOAT?

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Well, obviously, it goes without saying, but for the people that didn't finish school, uh GOAT, the acronym stands for greatest of all time. And I also feel that that's a word that gets loosely thrown out for so many things these days. I mean, very loosely thrown around. Yeah, like uh hey, have you ever seen uh weekend of Bernie's? Are you are you kidding? That's a classic. No, that's another word that gets thrown out too quickly, also is classic. It's nostalgic, it's cool, but it's not a classic. But I digress. To me, the definition of a goat is basically exactly what it means the greatest of all time. And it doesn't matter if you agree that this person or thing is the greatest thing of all time, as long as it has enough evidence and enough numbers and whatever else to back it up, uh, to that statement. So um, perfect example. I am a long-suffering Jets fan. Our 2am family knows this. You know this all well, and Lord knows that I also hate Tom Brady as much as I hate Mongoo with onions.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

The worst so choice you've ever made in your life.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah, well, as in the words of Joe Boningo, I'm not an intelligent human being. How can it be? I'm a Jets fan. But um like Ronnie Dangerfield, but yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

I consider you a highly intelligent man. I just it's fine. You know, I get it, I get it. I'm a Mets fan, so uh I won't watch your jobs too much. Yeah, however, as much as I can't stand time. What are the ingredients though of like what makes an athlete a goat? What makes someone a goat?

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Uh durability, um, longevity, numbers, accolades, and impact.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Okay, so that's um this is a like a dictionary definition. It's champions. In your extra, my friend, you hit almost all the categories. So championships, statistics, longevity, dominance, influence on the sport, and the it factor. Right? Yes, yes. Um with that being said, right? Oh my god, these are so good. I just I don't even know where to start. So you would agree again, championship stats, longevity, dominance, influence on the sport, and simply the eye test. Uh let's let's just let's just dive right into it. Um this is for my uh World Cup people, Ronaldo or Messi.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Okay, this is almost equivalent as LeBron or Jordan. It's not, but all right, go ahead. I mean, I would have to say from everything that we talked about, uh, statistics, championships, it factor, impact, all of that stuff that I can't think off the top of my head right now, but I we all know we're talking about sports, influence, it factor, longevity, dominance, and statistics, also championships. Yeah, well, so when you compare the two gentlemen, uh it obviously has to be messy. Not only because of the championships and uh the accolades, but you also have to talk about the F-Factor. I mean, he has a face and a presence that is very well received globally, more than any other North American sport. Uh, this is a guy who has transcended the sport to the point where people that are even not even casual soccer fans are wearing his jersey uh for rep for representation and what he stands for, not even just for Argentina, but also for MLS, Miami. I'm seeing a lot more pink soccer jerseys now for the Miami Galaxy simply because Messi is the franchise player, and also the fact that he's been in it for this long, I don't know exactly his age, but he's been in the game for quite some time. 38. Okay, he's two years younger than me. And the the the fact that he's still able to dominate and come and come up with these incredible plays at the most crucial times in very important games like the World Cup. I mean, just when you feel like you've seen it all with Messi, he keeps on coming back with more and reminds you why he's one of the best to ever play this game. And when it comes to Ronaldo, uh I feel like he's just dragging a hair behind in some of these things. But I think what what what uh what Ronaldo has over Messi clearly is the the the looks, the presence. I mean, obviously he's a heartthrob a lot uh more than Messi is. Um he does have the bus that that hideous bust that he was given, but it was still an accolade. And you know, it it again it comes back to the casual fans where people who are not really invested in soccer as much as the rest of the world, it's either come down between Real Madrid and Barcelona. And these two guys have put those teams at the forefront of the in the into the world of sports. But it seems like with Messi, uh, he's just made such an impact, whether you're a huge soccer fanatic or just a less than casual fan, he has transcended even the the sport itself. Okay, we haven't seen a we haven't seen a guy like uh this impactful since Maradona.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Okay, so here are uh this is the statistical and championship breakdown between the two. Um official career goes. Yeah, Lionel Messi. Now I don't know when this year was, is 855 versus 895. Total assist, right? So Crit Ronaldo has 40 more goals. Total assist is 355 to 255. So Messi has a hundred more assists than he does. Here's where it always is important for people to remember career appearances and games. Okay, Messi has 1,080 versus Ronaldo's 1230 appearances. So Ronaldo's been doing this a lot longer, he is a lot older. Ballon de Oro, which is basically the MVP, Messi's got eight, Ronaldo's got five. Europeans golden shoe, Messi's got six, Ronaldo's got four titles, total titles, right? Um 46 against 35. So Messi's got 46, Ronaldo's got 35. Messi's got on top of Ronaldo is a World Cup championship, an Olympic gold medal. Um, and Ronaldo's got five Champions Leagues uh titles. Messi's got four. But Messi's also got two Copa de America, and he's got ten La Liga titles. So it's he's he's clearly head and shoulders above him. Uh, and he also has an opportunity to claim a second World Cup, which the elite of the elite have two. Um, and Ronaldo sadly doesn't have one. And I know I know Portugal's gonna give him another shot, and they're gonna try to put him back in and try to convince him in four years from now. But realistically, this is this is the best you're gonna see out of him now. Uh, and and this is where I want to end with Lionel Messi, right? Ronaldo went to Saudi Arabia, took a ton of money. Messi was also offered like a billion dollars to go to Saudi Arabia. He chose to come to MLS, he got an MLS Cup now, and not only that, but he signed a contract where um anytime you open or turn on Apple TV, Messi is getting paid for it. So um clearly, uh influence um in the sports world, it's Lionel Messi, right? Yes, uh Ronaldo's like the LeBron of this conversation, Messi's like the uh Jordan. And and if you guys saw the Egypt-Argentina game that just happened uh last week, um where Argentina was being schooled by Egypt. Shout out to Mo Salah, one of the best. Um who won that game? I think Dina pulled it through. So uh give that man his flowers, man. And he's leading right now in goals in the World Cup. He might end up being the most valuable player of the tournament, and he has an opportunity to if he wins tomorrow to go for another World Cup. So obviously the GOAT is the GOAT, man. It's like the LeBron Mello rookie season. Everybody knows LeBron was the rookie of the year, but everybody knows Mello had the better year. So in that conversation, my goat messy above all, and if he gets a second world cup, he's the greatest of all time. That's solidifying it. Like it solidifies it completely. Um, so it we started soft because we don't really cover too much football or soccer, depending on where you're watching from on this channel. Um, but that's it's still a great debate and it's still a great conversation, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Uh and you know, we we represent New York sports, and there's a lot of New York sports fans that like this con this topic.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

So again, uh let's not get to the big one just yet because it's it's gonna get crazy for a second. So we did Messi and Ronaldo, right? Um, what sport you want to go to next? Do you want to go you want to go baseball, tennis, golf? You know, which where do you want to go to?

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Well, let's go with uh a little bit of the baseball. That's gonna be our veggies, and then we'll get into the meat and potatoes.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Oh, we didn't even so it's baseball, football, and basketball, right? Yeah, we did a little soccer. Um, so where do you want to go? You want to go to baseball first?

SPEAKER_03 20:13

I want to go to baseball first because currently, right now, the all-star game is going on. The homeland derby was last night, and we are at the break.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

In the midst of a season right now.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

In the midst of a season right now, while we're still riding off the high of the Knicks championship. I can't believe it's been a month already, and I still feel like I can't come down from Cloud Line, Cloud9, excuse me. And then uh we got uh football, American football, I should say, at least in our audience that's listening tonight, uh, to look forward to this upcoming season.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Now, I'm gonna rewind it again. Mm-hmm. In our categories of what makes a goat, championship stats, longevity, dominance, influence on the sport, and the if actor. Who is your goat in baseball? And this is pretty hard because the game of baseball, you're either an amazing offensive baseball player, like the you can play defense, you bat, or you're a spectacular picture. There's only been two men in this lifetime that have done both successfully. Um, and and I and when I say successfully, the they overachieved on one of the two sides, and and that's Shohei and Babe Roof. But um, give me your uh goat in baseball.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Yeah, so this is interesting because um baseball has been such a past an American pastime for a long time in this country that you have a lot of quote unquote goats that I'm not taking anything away from them, but you and I were not alive during this time. Like Babe Ruth is an obvious example of that. You know, we he's widely regarded for many, many years and many people. As the greatest baseball player of all time, but we've never got an opportunity to witness it.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

He also played against 16 teams in the team in the league was MLB was completely different then.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Right. And it's also a shame in the sense that behind closed doors in baseball, there's been a lot of stuff that has gone uh that even touches some of the grades. And one person that immediately shoots to the front of my head when it comes to impact on the game, accolades, all the other stuff that he did, and also, unfortunately, controversy. The first person that comes to mind as soon as uh as soon as we talk about all that stuff is Barry Bonds. Barry Bonds, I think, if without that without the controversy, there would be no doubt that he would be in that GOAT status uh along with one of the many other grades. But unfortunately, that has tampered his career and his reputation. And uh I just it's it's it's really a shame, even though I I have my own other opinions about it that I don't want to get into right now. But I see you warming up and I see you got you ready to come out launching like a rocket, so give me your take. Your two seconds.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

No disagreements with these two guys, the greatest baseball player I've ever seen. Five tool is like if you wrote a book on a perfect ball player, it'd probably be Barry, right? Yeah, um some of the stuff you mentioned, yes. And you also mentioned Babe Brook, and I think it's important to see the game in two. This is why I'm I'm not really crazy about the Hall of Fame. The game to me, I see it in two different errors, right? And I'm not talking about steroids or anything, I'm talking about before Jackie wrote the uh broke the color barrier, and I'm also talking about when the league was just 16, excuse me, 16 teams. For that error, Babe Roof might have been the greatest of all time. To me, Babe Roof's not even the greatest Yankee of all time. Um and and I've said this many of times on the show, it was just a completely different game. Um you asked any ball player, any MOB player, any one of them, even pitchers that face the man, who is that guy? And the answer is Barry. Um there's some other names you could throw in there. He's my one, right? He's my go. Arod's my favorite baseball player of all time, and Barry's his absolute he worship he their best friends, and he worships Barry, but he is just different. Um we we don't we don't know, but but just Barry, Barry is just he's just completely different. The man had 500 500 home runs and 500 stolen bases before any of that controversy and all that bullshit. Seven MVPs never won a world title, which might be a knock on his resume, but he was robbed of two other MVPs: dominance, uh stats, longevity, and influence in the game. Undoubtable. The problem with baseball is it has this um taboo, unwritten rules, older, like it feels like almost like the sports writers in the game are really old school, and they're like, Oh, you know, you change the game. But then again, Babe Roof was playing games when he was drunk, and all this other stuff was going on in those. There was so much controversy back then, it just wasn't covered the way it was. And the game still to this day has not, they've tried to evolve and they tried to appeal to a broader audience, but until they get out of that down south type of mentality, it will never be what it is. And let's just face facts since the game was the color barrier, it was broke, black and Latino players came into the game, they've dominated it more, um, they've dominated for a long stretch of time. It's just the way he's viewed in the game by the baseball writers and the owners and the commissioner's office and all that, right? Had this been the NBA type of atmosphere where even the David Stearns era in the NBA, Barry would have been goaded and he would have been, you know. Yeah. So baseball is very difficult to put into that conversation. I mean, I feel Junior, had he never got hurt, would have been another one that's in there, and it's funny because it's like to me, it's Barry, Mays, Jr., Arod, and Pool Halls. Those are my four, those are my Barry, Griff, Barry, Mays, Griff, A Rod, and Pools. Those are my five. Those are the five that I'm like, and I've seen three of those guys with four of those guys with my own eyes. Mays was the only one I didn't see, but look at Willie Mays's numbers. Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Yeah, and when you mentioned guys like Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr., you know, two African-American guys, two guys that have never won championships.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Black players never won a championship, but their influence, the numbers, the dominance.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Yes, they transcended football, they transcended baseball, and that that's when like Ken Griffey had everybody wanted to wear their hat backwards, backwards. You uh everybody wanted to wear uh Ken Griffey jersey, uh, even though they know they never stepped foot in Seattle. Uh it was just uh, and and you know, due to the fact that he became a bigger icon than his father, that if actor, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:12

He was known as the kid. Barry was you either knew him as Barry or you knew him as bonds. Kanye did a whole song called Barry Bonds, like yeah, Alex Rodriguez became A-rod. Pool Holmes has always been never no, not Albert, not pool holes. You already know the say hey kid, you know, maze. If you just say maze, you know exactly who you're speaking about. That's that star that's bigger than the game and the influence on the game. And the the the thing with all these guys, right? Poolholes has influenced a lot of young players. Alex has influenced a ton of young players, Barry is unquestionably, and so has Griffe. There's a lot of people in the game, right? That uh, and I don't mean to disrespect, I know the Yankee fans are gonna come at me because I didn't name any other Yankees in this conversation. And had Mickey Manuel um not had uh the addictions he had, I purely believe he would be in this conversation. Um that's fair. But these these that's my five, really, honestly. And baseball's a game where you can't just pick just one. Now, Shohei, still in the middle of his career. I still believe he's a better hitter than a pitcher. Um, I believe he's being used like LeBron, where he is the face and the guy that they love, so he could do no wrong, even though he's done three criminally wrong things that he's all of a sudden he can't speak English at all when those came those things came to light. But um the my go is Bonch.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Okay. Now, touching on the Otani thing for a second, because it just it just kind of popped up. So you just made the comparison of Otani and LeBron. Um, one thing that we didn't mention, but it needs to be talked about because it does put a huge part in their career is ring chasing because they were both in small market teams that historically have not been good, but they were putting up numbers and they were still the faces of the franchise uh and the league, but they're but they just couldn't help those teams get over the hump. Then they joined super teams. LeBron goes to South Beach, you got uh uh Rain and Bob that goes to Englewood, and they and and they went up and they end up winning championships. Uh yeah. So does that taint their legacy because they followed the ring chasing blueprint of super teams? Does that soften it up a little bit? Does that impact their legacy in any way, shape, or possible? I'm not because I feel like it does with LeBron, but O but Shohei, I feel like it doesn't, it it doesn't a lot more evident for me with Otani.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah, because Freddie Freeman was a world champion without him, because Muki Betz was a world champion without him, and those two guys, oh yes, they've also won MVPs.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Um well, same thing with Dwayne Wade and Ray Ray Allen.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah, yeah. But with Otani is a lot more evident. Um, I the it's a perfect comparison because they Otani did go to the Dodgers for the money in the rings, and he got it right away. And he got oh LeBron went, it'll I think it'll taint LeBron's legacy a lot more. Now it's it this is gonna segue into basketball, which I didn't want it to, but we'll just stick with this comparison first.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

But before you but before you get to that, I think what made LeBron's uh the way uh tarnished a little bit more than uh than Shohei is that he had to do the quote unquote decision. Whereas Shohei points to that moment. Yeah, I mean, love it or hate it, it's it it plays a huge impact into his legacy, like the worst way to do it. Yeah, when LeBron when when the LeBron documentary comes out, that is gonna be a focal point in the story of LeBron's career, without a doubt, because you know it was highly critical at the time when he did it, and people want to make the excuse like, yeah, well, he did raise this much money for this charity, and okay, that's fine. Whoop do you do? You could have done that without doing the spectacle, but then also him coming out years later saying that maybe I could have handled a little different. Now you got to respect the growth, and you got to respect that maybe he understood the error of his ways, but you can't go back in a time machine and change it. No, and I it's that's in it's that's in history forever. It's been meme so many times, it's been mocked on Saturday Night Live so many times, all that stuff. It's just it just has the impact, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

There's just it's it there's some qualities I give him credit for that also are detriment to him, right? Um, yes, he he put up he got his boys and he surrounded his boys around him, and they've done their their part, and they've done their now they're not where they're at because they got their start because they were LeBron boys and they're LeBron's friends, but I think they've each done their part to where they've staked the name where like I'm this person, I'm that person, right? Um the problem with Braun, which I I praise him for like sticking with his original crew and being loyal to them. The problem is at that time he had nothing but yes men who thought this was the right decision for him to make. Um and I get it, the pressure was on, and it that's on the NBA. First of all, the pressure that they put on him coming into the league was straight out of high school, out of this world. You're comparing the kid to Michael immediately. They played two different games, a more same number 23. Yeah, and he wore the number because of Michael. But the problem is a more feasible comparant when uh comparison when he came into the league was Magic Johnson. Um, you put all this pressure on this kid. Um, 2010 happens. All these teams need the biggest player in the in the game. The Knicks did all, every single team did what they did to get like cap space.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

They did this.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

That made it that made it worse because they put all this burden on him. Now, he needed to go outside his camp to a PR person or you know, his agent or lawyer, someone that was gonna give it to him straight. Because doing what he did on national television was maybe not the best way. I didn't care at the time that he went to Miami. What I cared about was how he handled it, right? And also, like it felt first of all, you can't knock him, right? He didn't go to Miami because of money. Uh, he has a relationship with Wade, and he was trying to put something together. I understand that, but the way he handled it, and they didn't win right away.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

No, once four straight championships only won two. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

So that, right? Then he goes to Cleveland and he wins one with Kyrie, and that one's also a little murky. Um, because I felt like the NBA gave Cleveland a first round pick to make up for the fact that LeBron left him. And they chose Anthony Bennett of all people. Remember, the Yoner was going all crazy and shit. Oh, yeah, yeah. Dan, yeah. So Dan Gilbert. It was a cool moment for him because he got to give his city a championship. I felt like when you're there, Gilbert's behind you, they'll do anything for you. Why walk away? Right? And this is also so the decision was one, two, going to LA was my second. He went to LA to establish himself in the business world and other worlds where I'm business. Well, I felt like his mind was away from basketball already. The ring in the bubble was a plus to him, right? I felt like he felt with the three rings, two in Miami, one in Cleveland. I think to him, the one in Cleveland holds more weight than the other ones.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

He's come out and said that publicly.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah, like I did what I I think he was at that point in time, he was already satisfied, right, with the ring thing, right? And he's like, you know what? They already had it in their mind, the ring conversation, as an argument for his legacy, even back then, his his squad. Um, and he went to LA for business, pure business reasons. Um, and then in LA, he just never delivered, was always overpaid, and he was all the front office decisions, and he tried to make himself bigger than the game.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Yeah. Um and you're trying to do that by following in the footsteps of the person that's already king of basketball. I mean, not only do you do the the the wearing the number 23 and wanting to win the championships, and well, he changes he changed his number a couple times in the lane.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

I understand that's great. He was six, he was 23.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

I understand that, but even follow even making a space jam sequel, it just took me to follow in the footsteps.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Again, his crew was around him, so it was not a you know, so that's my thing with him.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Well, there's crews around him or not, he's still the breadwinner and he's his own man, and then also he he can make his own mis decisions uh if he wants.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Nah, nah. Believe it or not, like you have some there's some influence within crews, right? Right. Uh, like I had a I have in my tightness circle, there's you know, if if I'm thinking, if I'm leaning one way and I have a conversation with three specific people, uh they can, depending on what their argument is and what my conversation with them is, it can kind of sway my where I'm going with it. Um and Otani, I felt like did something extremely similar. He wasn't going anywhere with the angels. He had kind of like made him his star as an angel. Really, he only picked the angels because I think at the time they gave him the it's closer to Japan, they gave him the better money than the Dodgers. But the Dodgers didn't need Otani, no, and it's been proven because after he got there, they still loaded up with stars, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

And unfortunately, switching back to LeBron, you could also make the argument, and it's pretty obvious, that LeBron needed the heat more than the heat needed LeBron because once LeBron left South Beach and went back to Cleveland, even though he did go to several champ uh championships and ended up winning another one, Miami was able to still make it to the finals and still be a contender all these years later without him and without Wade.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Oh, Pat Riley are basketball people.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

They created a culture that was there before LeBron and will continue to be there after LeBron is retired and after Pat Riley is long gone. That's uh I agree with you 100%.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

So we're in a baseball argument. Who is and and I gotta use the restroom real quick, so I'm gonna put you in the main screen to you. Who is give me your three modern day goats to have an opportunity to get into that GOAT conversation of ball players that are in there right now in baseball? In baseball, in baseball, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Uh well, I mean, we're seeing it right now with Otani. Uh, you know, with all the points that we mentioned earlier. Uh, but if you even if you take away all the negative connotations and all the other stuff and the controversy and just the criticism overall, there's no denying that Otani has been able to do things in this sport that not many athletes have been able to do, especially being in the National League where you'll be able to where you're able to pitch and also go at bat, and being able to exceed and excel at those positions, and being a main focal, a focal reason as to why you're winning those games and those championships. Uh, you know, it's not like Otani was taking a backseat to those championships. He was a key player and a key factor in order for them to win the whole thing at the end of the at the end of the uh the the titles. Um I know that Rick is gonna give me shit about this, but I don't give a fuck. It's uh you know, you have to keep on having Aaron Judge, especially when he's healthy, as being a phenomenal ball player because with his size and with his with his accolades and and uh you know several MVPs, the numbers he puts up, his war, even though I don't go crazy about war or anything like that, uh and seeing how the Yankees are basically in no man's land without him. And if it wasn't for the injury factor of Judge, all he's really all he really is missing is just the World Series ring. If he just even gets one, it'll erase all the criticisms that are working up against him. And you also have to include all the accolades and what he's been able to do for the Yankees and also for the uh of the face of MLB altogether before Otani came into the picture. And as far as my third one, this is gonna be it's gonna take some time to think because I can't think of anybody else that is really on Otani or Judge's level in terms of intangibles and accolades and impact of the game. I'm really gonna have to think about this, and I'm struggling right now. I don't know why. But for sure it's Otani number one, because it's pretty much Aaron Judge two uh 2.0, including with the rings, Aaron Judge, and I gotta I feel like I gotta throw a pitcher, you know, because pitcher pitching is a huge important part of the game as well. And we haven't really touched on pitchers as well.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Well, we'll do them separate because that's my my next piece. I don't want to continue on baseball, but you said Otani won Judge 2. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Otani is clearly number one because I think that Judge, even though he still happens to be the face of the franchise Yankees and still some to MLB, that elusive ring is really putting a damper along with his injury uh history as to being the top guy.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

He's something down a page if Otani was just a hitter.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

I I mentioned that. I mentioned that like he's a play, he's a hitter and a pitcher.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

That adds a lot to it. Let's take the pitcher away because that's part of the reason why he got the 700 million dollar contract. And Judge is a hitter, so let's judge him as a hitter. Both of them. Who would be 1A, one, one B. Looking at Judge's MVP seasons, regardless of the rings, uh, obviously Otani's got a lot more help than Aaron Judge. So yeah. Let's break it down to that point.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

That's interesting because and influence as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

I mean, influence is kind of like equal because Judge's in the biggest market, right? He's in the most historic franchise, maybe of all of sports.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

At one point, he had Megan Gabtooth actually look cool.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah, so you know what?

SPEAKER_03 43:38

I would also have Bobby Witt Jr. I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

I mean, it's what I mean. Okay, that because that's your opinion.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

He he he's ascending. He's ascending right now, and you could see the potential that he really has with the body.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

Mine is really gonna get a judge level. Mine is really gonna get the blood boiling of a lot of people, but okay, you say Bobby Witt. All right, cool. Yeah. Um, so stripping.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

His stripping his defense is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

It is. I get that. And I understand the hype around the kid. Um, but if you ask me, uh, there's only three names in baseball for me. If you ask me who you want to start a team around, stripping away the fact that strip away, forget that Otani's a pitcher. Okay. Because one of the years he didn't pitch at all. He just hit. He was DH. Judgy plays defense and he hits. Right. Doesn't have the same level of commitment or support around him as Otani does.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

That's why I put Judge, and this is a Met fan talking, folks. Judge over Otani. Otani. And it's not any hate or anything like that. I'm just looking for them. I'm comparing them as a DH versus an outfielder. Now, I have Judge One. Two's the name that's gonna get people kind of upset.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

I think I have a feeling who it's gonna be, but go.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Oh, Tani's three, right? Okay. And be before I say this, right? Um, let me just look up the years of playing time, first of all, because this is I'm gonna give you a statistical fact, right? Not an opinion, it's a fucking fact, okay? I feel like I'm not gonna go. The player is 27 years old. Um, let me see. All right, he's played nine years in Major League Baseball. So nine years in baseball compared to every other player and their first nine years. This ball player.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

Oh, I think it might be two on you're thinking of. No, I'm only it's only one. I know, but I'm saying it could be either one of two that I'm thinking of right now.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

This ball player is batting 282, uh already 265 home runs, 748 RBIs, uh almost a thousand walks already, 876 strikeouts, so more walks than strikeouts. Um where's the other big number? 1,666 hits, so almost a thousand walks and a thousand hits. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, with over almost 300 home runs. Nine years, 27 years old. His numbers only compared to Barry Bonds. His name is Juan Pacheco Soto.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

I okay. I thought that was that wasn't what I was gonna say because I felt like it was uh a low hanging fruit, but I thought you were gonna go Dominican anyway. I thought you were gonna say Tatis or Vladimir.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

No, so Fernando had the he still has the album, he's only 25, 26 years old. Soto's 27, right?

unknown 47:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

What people fail has a World Series. He has a World Series, that's correct. What people fail to understand about Juan Soto is what he does. He is a full-package player, it's just not always displayed, right? Um, I gave you the major numbers. We're at 27, he's almost at halfway to a Hall of Fame career. And the only other person in all the years of baseball that those numbers could be compared to is Barry Bonds. So for now, my goal is Barry. I'm waiting to see what this young man, this young man does, right? How he finishes out his career. To me, it doesn't matter where he finishes or who he plays for. Um when I saw the game where he first played against the New York Yankees at 19 years old at Yankee Stadium with my own two eyes, two home runs in the same inning at 19 years old. I was like, this kid is something different. And I saw that entire season and I saw his progression. Um he doesn't get brought up at all in the conversations, doesn't have the MVPs, doesn't have those big accolades that the other ones do. He's 27. Judgy is, what is Judge? 30? 33. 33? What is Otani? What is Otani?

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Um Tani.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Otani's 32. Okay, so and he's 27. So he has five more years.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Oh, and by the way, Aaron Judge is 34, excuse me.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

34 years old. Jesus Christ, he can't keep me out of the way. It is. Think about that one. How many career home runs does Aaron Judge have? I think he's over 300. He should be over 300. He did start late.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

Uh career home runs, you mean?

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah, career.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

Uh he has uh 380 home runs.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

380. He's close to 400. It's pretty good. Yeah, yeah. Um two MVPs. Should have been three. Otani? He's only got two. I thought I thought Judge had three. It could have been four.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

It could have been four, yeah. But because remember, oh, Altuve got one. Yeah. Uh let's see here. Uh Otani home runs. No, not 2024 all time. Some guy Tani has 302 career home runs.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Oh, it's my boy Dave. He said uh Soto's 27 in American years, 38 in Dominican years. Nah, he's he's at legit 27, but okay. Give me Otani's number one more time.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Otani has 302 career home runs.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Wow. So yeah, Soto is striking distance of Shohei. Now he plays in the same league as Shohei. Now going into the season, he told Shohei, watch out, I'm coming for your MVP. The Mets are the worst disaster I've ever seen since the Mets. Um if he leaves, okay, whatever he wants to do for himself, I'm okay with it.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Good.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

His career and the type of player he is, right? He will win another ring. He will most likely get some MVPs. As a Met? No, no, no, no. Don't come on now. I'm not. This is not med talk. I'm just talking about Shoto as a player.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

I wasn't even trying to be facetious. I was just gonna be a good thing. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Okay. Fair enough. As long as David Stern is the president of baseball operations and Steve Cohen's owning the team, Mets aren't going nowhere. They're not gonna win a world championship. Um this year. No, they as long as Steve Cohen and David Stearns are involved with the New York Mets, they will not win a world championship. Even if he got rid of Stearns. Even if he got rid of Stearns. Wow. Okay, all right. You know why the problem is he doesn't know, he doesn't have a guy, right? As much as Yankee fans bash Cashman, that's Time Berner's guy. Cash has got some skin in the game, he knows the game. He just is a little misguided right now. He's he's so swept up on the analytics and trying to prove all the fans wrong. Cash is not a bad GM. And he knows how to run a team and an organization. When was the last time the Yankees missed the playoffs? Yeah, he's made some bad deals, but he's made some good ones, right? Yeah. I crush him all the time because I feel like it's already, you know, a certain time, it's it's time to move on, time for something new, and that's where they're at now.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

In the same boat.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

But any methane would they would they take a Brian Casper? Stevie Cohen's not gonna hire the right guy. That's my issue, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:04

And do you feel like Stevie Cohen is more his brain is elsewhere besides baseball?

SPEAKER_02 53:09

I don't think it is. I think he's just relying on the people around him to get the job done, and he's not recognizing when the job is not being done. And I think the worst thing that happened for the Mets was them being two games away or a game away from the World Series in 2000 in 2024 when they were playing the Dodgers. That was the worst thing that could have happened for them because that earned in hindsight, yeah. That earned Cohen a little cachet. I mean, Stearns with Cohen, and he's leaning on. If Stearns is a failure, he's got to admit that he made a billionaire, made a mistake, and picked the wrong guy.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

It also sounds very James Dolan-ish, and look how that ended up.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

But Dolan, it's a different story. Dolan was humbled, and this is the reason why I think the next success was early on, was great. James Dolan was very occupied with the sphere in Vegas. He needed to launch that. So, and that's not now, you know. This has been five years where he's been going out there planning, and so he was occupied with that, and he picked a guy and he said, I'm gonna run with it. And and and you know, Leon Rose gave him enough reason to trust him and keep him around and keep moving things along. And then Leon Rose knew what the fuck he was doing. Is Cohen gonna find a Leon Rose in baseball? I don't know. Because he chased David Stern for several years, and he was convinced that this was his guy. And when it's clear that he's not the guy, he's still sticking to this is my guy. So that's why I believe the New York Mets, as long as Steve Cohen is the owner and David Stern is the manager, they will never win a championship. Now, Cohen has done a lot of things that needed to be done to the team as far as like with the fans, the engagements, creating history, keeping the old players around. Great. But building it out, yeah, he got Soto. Yes, he re-signed P for that year, but he needs someone else to run that ball club. And it's not this guy, and he's not gonna admit that he made a mistake. So he's gonna hire someone else, similar to the cloth of David Stern, right? And we're gonna end up in the same cycle that we did with the Wilbons.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

That's my I tend to dis I didn't I tend to disagree just a little bit because I for me, and I don't know how much clout uh I'm gonna I don't know how much this really counts, but the fact that Steve Cohen had the foresight to see that it was imperative to keep Alonzo one more year and have an impact that this team has with that with him, only for him to let Stearns do his thing and get rid of him, it shows a little bit more cachet on Cohen's part that he knows how to he knows how to run this organization better than somebody that's gonna be a small market GM. Because I think that's I think that's what Stearns' problem is. I think that's biggest problem over anything, and there's a bunch of problems with him, but I think that the biggest one is that he's treating this like a small market team in the biggest market in the world.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

No, so his problems he wants to make everyone think that he's the smartest guy, and he's not. And the the Pete Alonso thing, uh Cohen re-signed Alonzo, pressure from the fans and pressure from Soto. He had just signed Soto and Soto was like, I'm coming to play, but I'm coming to play because I'm thinking Pete's behind me and Lindor's in front of me. And now Pete that Pete might not be behind me. So then Cohen fired up the jet and went to Florida and spoke to Pete, and he got the deal done. And then Cohen was like, All right, David, I'm not gonna meddle anymore. It's your team. You run it. And this is this is this is really truly the first year of the David Cohen, David Stearns era, and this is what you're seeing.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

It sounds like a sign of things to come as long as David Stearns is still the GM of this team, and as long as Steve Cohen is not holding him, like why not?

SPEAKER_02 57:30

What look what they did to Mendy, look how they came into the season. After the 12 fucking losses in a row, people should have been fired. And I and I thought Cohen would have been a little bit more fiery and competitive, but he relies on this guy too much. I don't know what blackmail video or photos he got of Steve Cohen, but he's clearly not built for this market, clearly doesn't know how to run this ball club, and clearly is out of touch with his fan base. He doesn't fit, it's a bad decision. Why are you still sticking to your guns? Let's move on. This is not the that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, this is the GOAT conversation.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

All right, so right now you're acting like the goat of Mets fans, right now, because you're speaking for every Met fan out there, so bravo to you, Rick H. All right.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

So my GOAT in baseball is Barry Bonds. Mine too. Um, as far as pitching goes, which is very interesting, and I'm gonna be biased. I mean, the greatest pitcher to me, the most dominant pitcher that I saw with my two eyes, and I've seen several, right? I'm not gonna discredit any of these other pitchers, but Pedro Martinez, to me, was one of the most dominant pitchers I've ever seen play. The guy had five plus pitches, and just the re the way you hear all-time greats speak about facing Pedro, right, um is astonishing to me. Boston kind of destroyed the arm a little bit. Um, and you got to see flashes of Pedro right after that, and a couple times, a couple different stints. He added like maybe one or two good years with the Mets, but Pedro to me is the nastiest pitcher I've ever seen pitch with my own two eyes, and he is my my he's my pitcher go.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

Okay. Uh, I'm not mad at Pedro. I mean, personal politics aside, you know, I just focus on you know the impact and the numbers and everything. I'm not mad at that. Uh for me, uh, one person that I thought was amazing, and I'm and you know, it was it was a privilege for me to actually see him. And he did play on my team temporarily, but he was already washed by that time. But in his heyday, he was dominant and he actually put on a clinic against the uh the the Yankees once upon a time, and that is none other than Randy Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

The big unit. I mean, I wouldn't argue. I mean, I I think we live through the greatest modern time of as far as I believe so too.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

I mean, people could call it a steroid era or whatever, but I don't care. That was when baseball was king in my era, at least.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

You had Atlanta's rotation, Greg Matters, Smoltz, Glavin, uh, even Steve Avery at a certain point in time. You had Atlanta's rotation, you had Pedro Martinez, you had the big unit, you had uh Kurt Schilling, you had um Andy Pettit, disgusting left-handed, you had the Rocket Roger Clemens, you had Mariano Rivera, the greatest closer of all time. You had Mole, the greatest closer of all time. Um Jesus Christ, and I'm kind of like I'm said, I'm not getting on Bartolo Cologne, who started out there. Yeah, you had uh you had Josh Beckett, one of my favorite pitchers of all time. I think between 95 to like 2010, you saw some of the greatest pitching in baseball.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:15

Would you put Garrett Hole in that category?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

No, it's Justin Verlander. I was gonna say Verlander next. Um I've always been a Verlander fan, especially since he threw a perfect game on my birthday. Um Scherzer. Scherzer's definitely an all-time conference. Johann Santana. I feel like the Yankees had more nasty pitchers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:52

What's this dude's name? Uh I can't believe I'm drawing a blank, but he was a great met for you guys, and he won with the Rangers.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

Oh, DeGrom, but the DeGrom is not the Grom is not in the in the air. Um that I'm talking I'm speaking of. I mean, it was just a masterclass of pitchers, and it was a beautiful game.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:15

It was just a matchup of my first my first med game at City Field. I got the privilege to see Jacob de Grom pitch, and what an arm. Like what a show he put on at that at that game.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

I mean, Jake was phenomen. I'll appreciate his greatness. I just feel like the longevity of it. Like Jake was probably the best pitcher in baseball for about four or five.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

This was also this was also the game where um uh Pete uh Pete Alonzo hit number 47 when he was catching up to Aaron Justice 52.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Which he set the record of. But yeah, I I feel like the era that Pedro pitched, pitchers were nasty. They were going inside to take you off the mound, they were intimidating, they they had some electric stuff, they had a lot of movement, and they were pitching against the greatest hitters of all time in that era. Um, I mean, yeah, I Pedro's my guy, though. I I honestly feel like you could give Clemens his flowers and all that, but he was just filthy. And and Doc for the Mets was amazing, but um, because of again, the Mets have this thing with longevity. Uh Pedro's my pitch and goal.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

And you were too young to see Seaver, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

No, obviously, I was way too young, but the Mets also Met's problem is not having lifelong Mets, and we've covered this a couple times. And yeah, Crane Pool, Crane Pool and David Wright, right? And I think Alonzo should have been one of those guys. Um, he should have been.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

I mean, I can't believe the should have been one of those guys as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:06

Jake should have been one of those guys as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

Um, but he won it out. He did. Jake wanted out. At least you knew with Pete that he wanted to be a Met. It just wasn't up to him.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

And you could see who to you is the best Yankee pitcher of all time, Mariano Rivera, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

Okay, greatest, greatest pitcher I've ever seen in a Yankee pinstripe.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:27

I I could say de Gram and I could say doc for the Mets, but I could only mention specific years for them. Got you. Right? Not the long Jeff. So it is time to have that pivotal point, and we're gonna finish it off with the meat and potatoes of this conversation that always gets people going. We've mentioned his name a couple times. I'm gonna ask you a question, and I'm gonna apologize to the audience because I have to uh once again uh use the restroom. This is what happens when you drink beer during a broadcast. Um the age of question Jordan versus LeBron. Right. Give me your best argument for LeBron at this point right now. Um, and I'm gonna let you take the main screen for this one.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Well, I don't even know if I would put LeBron in the go category because he can't even evil he can't even get up to Kobe. To me, it's Jordan one and Kobe two, and then LeBron three, and there's so many other factors that come into play with the fact that there's a lack of originality and uh uh gravitas uh with LeBron when you compare him to either Kobe or Jordan, and Unlike Jordan and unlike Kobe, as much as LeBron likes to be portrayed as a leader of men, I really haven't seen that that that leadership gene in him. And he's shown mental weakness compared to those two other men. Uh yeah, I think a better conversation would be either Jordan or Kobe instead of Jordan and LeBron. But respect to the to the dead. And you know, we won't get to that, but sticking to topic here. Anything that LeBron has done, Jordan has already done. And there's going to be some people out there that may have a leg up insane LeBron because he has been playing basketball for 20-something years straight, no quits, no breaks in between, like Jordan did. But I think he also got an easier shake because he started from out of out of high school, whereas Jordan had to basically go up the ranks and actually changed culture, not just for Chicago, but also did a hell of a job in North Carolina. People are still rocking the North Carolina jerseys from his college years. His name is synonymous with basketball more than LeBron will ever be. And some of the antics that LeBron has done, and seeing that his competitive edges edginess is not there, especially considering that his life, his career is taking other turns besides basketball. Because it seemed like with Jordan, it was always basketball, basketball, basketball, even though he had all the endorsements in the world, and yes, he was able to stay on top of it, and yes, he made tons of money doing it. But basketball, aside from baseball, was always his number one priority as an athlete. Now it seems like LeBron has gone away from the athlete aspect and is now more focused on other things, more focused on maybe casinos or movies and trying to follow the Jordan footprint, uh blueprint. And if you're gonna call LeBron the GOAT, it's because he's following the GOAT blueprint that Jordan laid out fullheartedly and still talked about to this day. It has been two decades since Jordan has stepped out of basketball court and played at least 22 minutes a game. And yet we still talk about him in lore. He is a deity in basketball. The fact that we still compare him to LeBron after all of these years, and it's gonna continue after all these years. You're always gonna find the majority that's always gonna choose Jordan over LeBron, and the only ones that are gonna pick LeBron are the ones that weren't around alive to see Jordan or too young to see Jordan, or just does, or just we live in a world now where everybody wants to be a contrarian. So this is actually an unfair advantage for me. It's gonna be Jordan one, Kobe 2, LeBron three.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

Okay, so I heard your first take. I heard most of it, actually. I wanted you to make a take for LeBron being the GOAT, which is fine, it's gonna be difficult for you because um he clearly isn't, but yeah, let's do this from the perspective of playing time. LeBron, yes, he has gotten all the numbers. Played 23 seasons, he will enter his 24th next year. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

No, he will. He will. He'll find somewhere to play even though nobody wants him. That's always been my theory. No one's gonna want him this offseason, right? Here's where I am. Don't don't want him, don't need him. Nope. Here is where I am with him, right? Okay. You mentioned uh something about Jordan being leader and not seeing that with LeBron.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

Yeah, there's a leadership quality that I saw in Jordan on and off the field that I feel I haven't really seen in LeBron. Maybe I've seen it a couple of times on the court, but not necessarily off the court. And and I just feel like he's a little bit too he's trying to be a little more PC than Jordan was. Because I feel like whereas Jordan was just okay to be himself and be a leader of men, you feel like LeBron is also trying to walk that fine line where he wants to be adored by everybody and not and come off as the perfect model citizen and all that other stuff, and it kind of seems somewhat disingenuous, not not even not even all the way disingenuous, but there's like a hint of un disingenuous there with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

Now, in other shows, they've had this conversation before. I want to do completely different. I'm gonna give you some of the arguments from the LeBron side, and we will discuss them, right? Redefining what makes it go, championships, stats, longevity, dominance, influence on the sport, and the it factor, right? They all have that, both of them. Yes. Here's where it gets tricky. LeBron played in an era with I'm gonna get murdered for this. Every single player that played with LeBron or against LeBron already submitted to the fact that he was better than them, with the exception of Carmelo. I'm gonna repeat that statement one more time. Anybody who played against LeBron James or with LeBron James in his error had already goaded him before he won a title, with the exception of Mello. And Kobe was on the tail end of his career, so I won't put him in there. Kobe is the closest thing to Michael. I agree with you, he is my number two. The fact that we get the conversation about it's a different league, bigger, stronger, faster, cool, whatever. It is bigger, stronger, faster. It's a different game. But let's remember a couple things. They goaded him, right? Look at all his peers, with the exception of Steph Curry, who is actually my number three, not LeBron. Um, they goaded him from jump. Everyone that played in the era that he was in the league and he was the face of the league, automatically was like, Yeah, he's the go, he's the greatest, he's the best, he's whatever. Cool. When Michael played, nobody wanted to play with Michael, nobody wanted to say Michael was the greatest. They feared and didn't want to play against Michael, and they played him a specific way, not even to get him going. Advice to players defending Jordan was don't piss him off, don't get him going, don't talk shit to him, don't get him started. That was advice given to players who were defending Michael. Feared. No one fears LeBron James. One in his era. LeBron has feared a couple guys in his era. And let me give some flowers to JJ Berea, who shut down LeBron James, right? That's one longevity, yes, 23 years. The guy invested money into his career and whatever it may be, whatever the fuck he wanted to do, cool. When Michael played, yes, the oh, he didn't win with the no Scotty, whatever. Cool. There's something to be said about going in with a team, growing with that team, and then becoming the leader and dictating how the team should be built and the setting the standard. That's what he did. He set the standard. Yes, he knew the standard of the league at that time was the Bad Boy Pistons, it was Larry Bird, and it was Magic Johnson, right? There's a couple other players in that era. And this is not that's not even the Jordan era, this is before he won chips. Right. So when he walked into the league, there was some killers in the league already. It was a Bird Johnson league, it was Larry versus Magic, two of the coldest NBA players of all time. Um they won. They were nasty, they were feared, they dominated, they so again, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, championships, statistics, longevity, dominance, and influence had that. Mike's first test was against the bad boy pistons, and um that was not a light one. When he finally got there, finally wins the first three P after they win the third championship. Every single player in the NBA knew it was gonna be difficult to get a ring in this man's era. He leaves, goes to play golf or and baseball and other the speculations on why he retired. You know, his father did get murdered and passed away. Um, regardless of what the real fact only Mike will know that shit, he leaves, right? Yep. I remember 1994, and I remember all the all the the Barclays, the Rockets, the Knicks, Orlando, all those, and every single team was amazing. Every single team had a star, they had a a co-star. Every team had a Batman and Robin. In every team in the league. Every team was good, every team played hard, every game, almost every game was can uh competitive. There were obviously there's some lower teams that you know. Sure. Like the Utah Jazz. Utah. Well no, I wouldn't say that because they had Stockton and Malone. They had Stockton and Malone, they did, they did. Seattle was Sean Kemp and Gary Payton. I could go on. I told you there was a star, and then there was a Batman and a Robin in every team. None of these guys wanted to leave whatever team they were to play with Mike to get a ring. They wanted to win in whatever team they played with, right? Correct. This is Michael's error. Now I'm gonna give you LeBron's error. This is Michael's error. Every team thought they had a shot. Houston won the first one against New York. New York should have got that 94-1. I believe New York should have got 95, but they made some mistakes administratively. Um, and it ended up being Orlando versus Houston. Houston got a uh the Houston got two little rings in between, right? Uh, and they had a fucking team, like a full-fledged team. What happens? Mike comes back, wins three more. Yep, six for six in the finals, never went to a game seven.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:08

Never.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:08

And if it wasn't for the owner of the Bulls being greedy, Jerry Ronsdorf. And the GM of the of the Bulls, uh, he was his name was Jerry Krause. Oh, yeah. Jerry Krause. There you go. Jerry Krause wanted credit for the six rings. They could have kept that shit going. To be honest, they could have Mike was still Mike. Nobody was fucking with him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:32

It's like uh this is like, you know, he was still coming to America, Eddie Murphy.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:41

What happens? Mike retires in '98. 99 finals become Knicks San Antonio. Yep. You guys know all this shit already by this time. Mike's gone. Knicks believe they have a shot. They went out there, they played hard, they made some good pack gets hurt. They unfortunately couldn't win the ring. But the birth of a dynasty begins in 99, which is San Antonio. Yes. Now, I'm gonna say this, it's gonna be controversial. It's gonna kind of mess up my Kobe point, but the Kobe Shaq combo, Shaq was the fucking guy for the first two, I'm gonna say. But you started to see, okay, we have a 1A and a 1A. It's gonna be difficult if they could keep this thing together. They could get, they could get to five or six rings. Right. Um, it happened. Whatever happened in the league, happened in the league. The league still was competitive, everybody had their stars. This man came into this league. Again, the NBA put expectations on the kid. It's unfair, but whatever. He decides to go to Miami, decides to ring Chase. He knew at the moment he stepped in, he wanted all the records, and he wanted to surpass Mike on rings. So, championships. Mike's six for six, never saw game seven.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:22

LeBron's four for ten. Four for ten will get you fired anywhere. That means you failed 60% of the time. Statistics. Mike played 16 years. LeBron's played 23 already. And in some categories, he hasn't even caught up to Jordan.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:40

67%.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Longevity is there, right? Dominance. 23 years. I would argue out of those 23, LeBron's dominated a few years. Michael dominated most of the 90s. And that's like a 12-year stretch out of the 16. 12 out of the 16 years, Mike was dominant. Influence on the sport. Your boy wears number 23 because of Mike. He his career is built around him. I wanted a shoe deal. I wanted to sign with Nike. I want to win 23. I want to be known as the greatest of all time. That's his idol. Right? Yep. Jay-Z just finished these concerts in Yankee Stadium. Yes, he did. Regardless of what you feel about the man, you saw what real rap music is. What you've seen from the guy from Toronto is shit that's fabricated. We live in a world of reality and Instagram. Mike is the reality, LeBron's the Instagram.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:04

Boom.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

Jay-Z is the reality. Drake is the Instagram. Boom. One is real, authentic, and is raw. And this is what the dominance and the talent is. The other one is perfectly curated, assembled upon every single. Again, LeBron's made a lot more money than Michael. And it's not because of the years, it's because immediately he was anointed. Yeah, yeah. And they want the NBA knew this is our cash cow, so let's hitch our wagon to him and let's give them all the resources. Let's he can't look bad. No, nothing he does can look bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:50

And that's on and off the court.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:53

On and off the court. Yeah. Same thing with Drake. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:01

Now, I'm a New York Knicks fan. Have I ever rooted for Michael Jordan? Hell no. Did I watch him with my own two eyes? Yes, I did. Since 1990, I've been watching Mike. Did I see what he did to my Knicks and other teams? Yes, I did. Have I seen the influence on the game that he has had? Yes, I have. Mike is Mike. He's known as Mike, he's known as Jordan. Air.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:34

Air Jordan, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:36

And in the top 50 players, top 75, which they did recently, every single player, and these are the greats of the greats of the game. When Mike walked into the room, everyone was like, that's the fucking guy.

unknown 1:22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:54

In both times. To be loved or to be feared. I'd rather be feared. Mike was both.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:02

Mike was both. He was feared when he was when he played, and he was loved and appreciated when he was gone. And the same thing with Kobe being Bryant. I hated Kobe. Hated him. And you know what? I wish Curry was a Nick, but, and I'm gonna bring him up right now because I think my boy's not getting the love he should be getting. But when you watch an opposing player in MSG do some of the special moments that they have had, you gotta appreciate it. So I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:40

No arguments here.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:42

When Steph retires, there's gonna be a ton of appreciation and love his way. But now, because he played in the same era as a pretender that they built up, he's not considered in that conversation.

unknown 1:23:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:00

Um, so that is my argument.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:04

I'm not gonna give you the playoff numbers, I'm not gonna give you the fact that he hasn't scored 40 in his career as much as Mike has, or 50 as much as I can Mike has. I'm not gonna give you the dominance, I'm not gonna give you the fear, I'm not even gonna get into the uh super team shit that he's always done, which he's also in this offseason currently trying to do. I'm just gonna give you the point of view from the people who hated that person that they watched, and now bow down to the man. That is my argument, all right. And to me, LeBron over Jordan over LeBron, Jay-Z over Drake.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:47

Okay, not mad at that.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:53

The floor is yours. I'm sorry. This is your moment. Give me your unbiased opinion.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:02

My unbiased opinion on LeBron specifically, or the comparison between the two. Uh, I just feel like, you know, one one thing I will give credit to LeBron is uh his durability, the amount of money that he has spent on his personal physical health to keep him going. Um and he's still and you also have to respect his longevity in this game.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:28

I mean, what we're witnessing right now for his community also should get major props.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:34

Right. But what I'm saying is that, and you're absolutely right, but what I'm saying is that for uh during that moment, you have to respect there are some qualities about LeBron that is likable, you know. If you if you like, I just feel like the whole go conversation kind of puts a huge cloud over him, especially since he seems to be following the Jordan blueprint. But I respect LeBron's durability, the fact that he's been able to stay healthy the majority of his career. I think the worst thing he ever received was probably uh leg cramp because he was so dehydrated playing against the San Antonio Spurs. Uh, I do like that he likes I do like the accountability, like even though he lacks a little bit of uh uh leadership qualities in my eyes, there are some things that he will put his foot down. I mean, who can forget that egregious J.R. Smith play and having LeBron just wave his hands all over the place? That goes to show that he knows what to do and he wanted to follow the plan. And unfortunately, somebody decided not to stick to it, and we all know how that ended. But overall, for LeBron, I think one I think this is probably the nicest thing that I'll say. Even though it seems there are some things that are Jordan copycat-ish, you also have to appreciate that he has been able to do these same things on his own terms. So I think that his durability, his longevity, his off-screen presence, and everything else minus the championship, even though he has four, uh it doesn't seem as pure as Jordan's was. But at the end of the day, he is still a champion. He did play crucial roles into winning those championships. Maybe he may he may not be Royale or anything like that, but he definitely was a key of a factor to being a champion. Uh and even when people criticize the bubble, claiming that it's not a real championship, you have to really give it to him based on the odds that were stacked up against, not just the team, but everything else that was affected in this world. Dodgers also had a bubble championship, too, but um correct, yeah. So LH was just one big bubble. But um that that that's basically all I have as far as like my goat description for LeBron. Um just like to keep it short and sweet, and uh, you know, and and also it's it's really a spectacle to see that he's gonna be entering his 24. Fourth year into the league. And maybe, maybe he's not going to be the same. He's certainly not going to be the same one that he was five, ten years ago. But the longevity, the durability, the availability, and trying to put his foot uh his fingerprints all over this team in a world where it's unheard of because back then there was no such thing as players running a team, not even Jordan. I mean, it was still Jerry Reinsdorf and Krause running the show. So at least LeBron has taken that initiative to really get involved with not just the players and not just the coaches, but also the franchise.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:36

I mean, yes, as a residual of what Jordan did, players did get more ownership and power in the NBA. This is no dispect to disrespect to LeBron. I agree with every point you made.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

The man that's all I got.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:51

That's that's all I got. I don't have anything else.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:53

Again, honestly, a better comparison with Magic. And the way he plays and his skill set um is more comparable to Magic, not uh Michael. Um it's just that's my whole point. Like, they're not even the same type of prototypical player. Like LeBron's a facilitator, Michael's a closer and a finisher. Right? Michael's a killer, he's an animal, he dominates, he takes over games. LeBron is more of like a um, I can I can score, but I'm trying to get my guys involved, or you know, I'm trying to dish the ball. And for a long time, he was he would pass first and he would evade though, evade those clutch moments. And it's not his fault the NBA crowned him as the crown jewel, the next coming, greatest of all time. It was also not his fault that his competition kneeled basically to him and didn't really push to make a name for themselves, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:58

Um, and you know, another factor that I want to add with LeBron is um it just seems like uh what he's accomplished is not enough. I mean, I remember when the when he won his fourth ring in with the Lakers in the bubble, uh his speech was basically said, I want my damn respect. He succeeded almost every facet that anybody could be in the NBA could achieve. He's been given the opportunities, he's been able to seize on them. And even after all of that, he cares about how people think about him.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:28

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:29

Whereas I feel like Jordan, whereas I feel like Jordan just was able to tune out the the noise.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:34

It's that old adage of saying, if you that guy, you don't have to say you that guy, people are gonna recognize you as that guy. He is trying to be that guy and trying to get that recognition at the same time, so that's why for me, is he the best of his error, whatever he played? Maybe arguable, debatable, like debatable. See a conversation for Steph in there. Um, I really do. I honestly I believe you, I believe you curry revolutionized the game, and he has more rings than LeBron. And yes, he had Durant for two rings, but he didn't need him. He didn't need him because they were able to win without him afterwards before him and after him, yes, and to me, Durant is the prototypical. I'm so I find it humorous that Drake is doing commercials for Durant because Durant is the perfect example of an Instagram basketball player, right? Um same could be said for I'll give you this comparison modern day, right now, Shay Gillis Alexander as she Instagram, Jaden Brunson, that dude, and that that's the point. Like, I want people to start separating social media and like you know, I want people to separate talent from shit that's being manufactured for you to like and cater to you. Like you can't bring an Adele and um I'm not gonna say her name because it's gonna get bad. Like an Adele and a fucking J Lo in the same conversation. Adele is raw natural talent, great artist. J Lo is someone who has had to work her life, and they have she needs a whole team around her to get her to that point, right? Right. Um, who else? I I mean, I I feel like Beyonce is kind of in the middle. She's had the best of both worlds. But Ariana Grande, natural talent. She's a singer and entertainer. Rosalia, singer entertainer. Um, as opposed to people who are just social media influence, the money machine behind them, and they're really one-hit wonders. So that's where I'm gonna end it. I need you guys to really understand real talent from fabricated talent. Not to say LeBron's fabricated, but the comparison. There is levels to this shit, and Mike's on a different level. When the NBA holds an event called the best 75 players of all time, and they're both in the room, and all 70, I must say 73 players that are there, besides Michael and Bron, are all looking at Mike and are talking about every single little thing he did, like when he entered the room, and they were all in awe. That's what I mean. That is what a go is. As soon as he walks, you're the man until the man walks into the room, and that's what this is. So, until when. I was gonna say the red cage show, when the Jason Rick show is launching. Uh, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate the love and support. Uh, we'll see you guys next week. Jay. Rick. Oh, that's it. You don't have nothing, you don't have no final okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:24

No, well, I will I will say this. Uh, I will say that uh Yankees fans and Met fans, it's a summertime. Go to the beach, go to Six Flags, play golf, work on your swing.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:37

New York Yankees will be in the ALCS, the match will be home.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:40

Yes. Uh just basically focus on the fact that it's summertime and do anything that you can to forget about baseball for the time for the time being.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:50

This is a Meth fan talking. Yes, the New York Yankees are about to go on a fucking run. Okay, and they're gonna go to the ALCS. Okay, Cashman historically has done good at the trade deadline. Well, they win a title, I'm not going that far. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:06

And no, and listen, as much as I'm not a fan of Brian Cashman, I want to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:10

And getting Aaron Judge back is like getting two big making two big trades at the deadline. So that with whatever he has planned in his fucking pocket, watch out. And plus the AO is very weak. Right. So Yankees will make the playoffs as usual, and I'm predicting they will get to the ALCS, possibly the World Series, depending on. I'll tell you after what Cashman does at the deadline. The Mets will be the saddest disappointment. This season will be worse than last year. And Mets fans, if you're tuning in, come to me. I'll give you therapy. I'll tell you what's wrong with the team. And I need to unite you guys, and I need you guys to get on the same page. Amen. We'll see you guys next week. Thank you for joining us.