CLASS IN CRISIS: Can Independent Schools Think Different?

Independent schools are rich in history—but under real pressure. Fees are rising beyond reach, parents are squeezed, and teachers are leaving in droves. With a growing recruitment crisis, shifting attitudes, and a profession losing status, something isn’t working. Can the sector rethink, reinvent, and recover—or is it running out of time?

A conversation with Christine Cunniffee

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

You're listening to the Cheryl Lady Show where curiosity meets courage. I'm so glad you are here because joining us right now I have Christine Coonough, the principal at LVS Ascot in the United Kingdom. I had the pleasure of spending time with Christine and her staff a few weeks ago when I was in the United Kingdom and learning about the independence system and the issues that they're dealing with. And Christine is a leader not just of her school but the independence sector more broadly, has uh tremendous insight into what's been going on with so many school closures. And she's also got some great ideas about how to rectify the system. Christine, welcome to the show. Good evening, or I should say actually good morning, Australia. Indeed, it's great to hear from you, Christine. And yes, it's about 8 pm at night, isn't it? Uh in the UK thereabouts.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, absolutely, yes. And it's just started raining again. So we we it was looking up for a couple of weeks. It's getting a bit brighter, but now we're back to our normal rainy cold self tonight. So yeah, it's a bit of a dismal landscape here.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Never mind. It's never dismal when it comes to education, though, is it? There's always something taking place. And the independent sector is a little bit unique in the UK to Australia in that you've got thousands of independent schools that and a lot of them boarding schools as well. And what's different, I think, more than anything else, is that they are they are deeped in tremendous history, particularly your school with uh your connection to the royal family. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

So many of our schools go back hundreds of years with very different foundations as well. So my school, for example, was founded in 1803 in Kennington and in London by a group of publicans who wanted a uh a better educational experience for their children in light and area environments. And um the w one of the funny things I think uh is that back then the water in London was so dirty that the children could have half a pint of ale at lunchtime. But then what I say to my prospective parents is that the the water in Ascot now is very good, so we don't do that anymore. But we are teaching history and and you know some some many fine things happen back hundreds years ago where people set up these foundations to help children with true bursaries and to try and make a better education experience for children. So what's uh such a shame is this history, these foundations, often institutions that have been very forward thinking in education through hundreds of years, are suddenly finding themselves in a position where they cannot survive and they're closing. Some very fine examples of schools now who are closing, which is so sad in our landscape and for part of our history.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Couldn't couldn't agree more. Now, my understanding is that there's been around about a hundred schools closed uh in 2024. I'm not sure what the figures are for last year. However, for a good decade or so from 2013 to 2023, there were around 77 schools per year closing. So we're we're talking about a thousand schools in the last, you know, 15 or 12 years or so. That's a lot of schools. And i the discussions around the VAT tax, 20 per cent tax on private school fees or independent school fees is of concern, but it doesn't seem that's the only issue, Christine, if it's been going on for so long. It has.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

And and I think what we have to look about at is affordability. So if you were to go back 30, 40 years ago, you'd find that many teachers, doctors, lawyers could afford private education for their children. Whereas I think gradually costs have have have crept up for one reason or the other. Um I think if you look at the moment, you know, the kind of the the the pressure that we have is recruitment crisis. So we were actually paying huge amounts of money for qualified teachers. There's a huge recruitment crisis in the UK. And then you've got your normal bills, you've got your electricity and gas and the uh the upkeep. So some of these schools in the UK might have a hundred plus acres, and that takes maintenance, it takes a lot of money to plow back into the fabric. And I think private ed plus other things in the country have become unaffordable, unreachonable. So, you know, it's um it is a combination, but to put then 20% tax on parents, and I always stress this isn't a tax on private schools, it's a tax on parents. I think in the UK that's disgraceful because those parents are already paying through their tax for state school place, and now they're paying tax on tax-paid money to be able to aspire for something extra for their children, and that might be because the child has particular needs where they're not being met in a normal school, and therefore they have decided to use their tax-paid money to buy that provision.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

So, what can be done, Christine? You've mentioned a number of issues here. You've got the taxes for sure. That's really an affordability issue, as you rightly pointed out, and that's across the board with or without the VAT. And then you've also mentioned the recruitment crisis. We have teacher shortages here in Australia as well. So, what do you believe has driven that? Are teachers preferring to stay in the government system or is that also problematic?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I but it's it's it's nationwide. And I think what we've seen is we've seen a lot of um teachers exodus to go abroad because there's been some very good um lure to to teach abroad, you know, for tax situations and good pay. I think we have in the UK seen a decline in the standards of behaviour. Um I think we're seeing a shift in cultures generally. I mean, it used to be a very respected profession. I don't think it gains the respect that it once had. So I don't think it's just when I say safe, it used to be kind of a safe and progressive um career. It's such a shame that I think it it has slipped. And I think we do need to reinvent and look at how we can reinvigorate recruitment in the teaching profession because if we get it right, it's one of the most rewarding things. But at the moment we're not getting it right. I don't know what it's like in Australia, but I definitely see the landscape shifting here, and it's only going to get worse unless we do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Oh, I couldn't agree more. And uh we we had a bit of a disruption, didn't we, when when I came to visit you, and we really did disrupt the conversations uh to move away from accepting things as they are to think very deeply about how change can happen, because you're absolutely right. We've got the same issues here in Australia and across the world, the Western world generally, we have a demise in confidence in the teacher workforce and therefore a reduction in in recruitment. That's also got to come from within the schools themselves, and the accountability uh is really key here. And I wonder what your thoughts are on self-employment and uh merit-based pay across the board for the profession.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

That's a really interesting one because I think I think w especially with the younger generations, what we're seeing now is we're we're seeing probably attitudes that we didn't see when I was a young teacher. That uh some teachers are saying, for example, I like this part of the job, but I don't want to do this bit, and I want to be paid for this, but I don't want to do this. Now, I think a a part of a teacher's contract, their psychological contract with the school is also what they will give in return. It's kind of reciprocal. I think that the pay scales have slipped when you look at it in the UK, especially over the last 10 years, because the pay spines haven't kept up with inflation, technically the profession is underpaid. But at the same time, you have to look at our contracts. You know, we're paid for in the state system, we're probably paid for 38 weeks a year. In the independent school, we're we're paid 34 weeks of the year. When you look at that prerata and you you look at what other people in industry have to do to to earn that kind of money, are we so hard done by? So, for example, I know people that work in the city here, they'll be on a train at seven o'clock in the morning, they'll be coming back seven, eight o'clock at night, and they'll be doing that 52 weeks of the year with 25 weeks f 25 days holiday. There are certain conditions for teaching that are conducive to a family life, to a work balanced life, and I think really we need to quite kind of paint it more positively and say, come on, this is a great, great profession to be in. Why is there so much negativity? I haven't quite caught on to that one yet.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

No, it's an interesting one, and I back to when you say about value, one of the most important things that I've learned and was asked, you know, what do I consider success to be? And ultimately my view is that success is the art of creating and exchanging value. And from what you said just there, where there's not an exchange of value that that seems to be uh one of equal context, if you will, when there is the opportunity for teachers to have all of these benefits, as you said, work-life balance and you know, they are working nine months of the year and all these this annual leave, whereas everybody else is working so hard. That exchange of value is is being lost. Is that impacting the way people see the profession?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, I think there's more of uh an expectation of what every unit of work looks like or can or the pay associated to it. So I'll give you an example. For example, I'm a music teacher by trade. So I know that on top of my working day I would be expected to put on shows and concerts, I'd be working probably late one or two nights, and then if I sit on a show, I'd probably be doing rehearsals at the weekend. I accepted that, that was part of my role, uh a bit like sports teachers, for example, but I think now the younger generation in particular, I think they're actually looking at what they're doing and and being paid for those units of work. Now, I you know, I'm probably gonna be cried down here. I know there's a lot of people that still put a lot of those that extra time in, but it's not like when, you know, when I was training that it was expected, that's what it looked like.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

I think the reciprocal relationship has changed. Yes, I couldn't agree more. And with that reciprocal relationship, it also comes back to what we mentioned a moment ago, and that is m merit pay. So as a music teacher, you you provide a terrific example there. Imagine if you could determine your worth as a music teacher and relinquish some of those responsibilities that could go to others so that there's actually more people employed in different ways. And then also I'm a big advocate for schools being open 52 weeks of the year and flexibly using the resources in different ways. What do you think about those sorts of ideas?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Well, that's really interesting, and I've actually s said a lot about this on in the media in the UK as well. You know, the the reason why I have these big long summer holidays was when we were at harvesting. Um, it doesn't make sense to not be working in school six to eight weeks in the summer holiday because if you think your skill's lost, some uh opposition to that would cry me down and go, Oh, children need to be out exploring and playing on the beach and doing all that kind of stuff. But if we get the school environment right, children should be playing outside. They should be playing in the woods and the on on the beaches, and but that should be part of that outdoor education, it should be part of our curriculum. I don't see why we have those huge holidays in the middle of the year now. It doesn't make sense, but we keep doing it. And if you look at it, you know, I can say from the UK perspective, we're we've got a Victorian education. We follow a Victoria calendar year, we sit children one metre apart in exam desks, we still write exams with pen and pen pencil at one point in time in the year. If a Victorian were to walk into one of our exam halls right now, there's no change. We haven't moved forward. We're the only industry that hasn't moved forward. When all industries have moved forward, education hasn't.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Oh, Christine, look, uh I enjoyed talking with you uh when we uh were together face to face uh in the UK and you've just added to that because there are so many points that we've just raised that we could talk about all day, I'm sure. So I've got to get you back because we need to unpack what's happening in the UK a lot further and get your insights because there is a flow-on here in Australia. And yet the flip side is that perhaps you're not aware of, is that people are leaving the government sector here in Australia and increasingly choosing independent schools. So it it's the opposite. And the reason for that is exactly what you said just then, and that is that there hasn't been sufficient change in in education, its portfolios or how we operate and function, and standards have plummeted, and people are expecting in Australia that the independent schools can do something differently with uh that perception and in fact are succeeding in some respects. But they're all part of the same system, exactly as you just said, and uh the independent schools in the UK no different. It's all part of a historical context that hasn't changed.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

I think what we're gonna see, and and I'm starting to see it now, I think that VAT on school fees will become the norm. People will forget and it will move on and it will recover for exactly the same reasons what you've just said, is that all the time we've put impression on our state system where the governments are not allowing the state schools, not giving them the funding or the infrastructure to actually move forward, our schools will become more attractive. And I think in the next two to three years we are going to see that uptake, we will see those pupils coming to us, and it's such a shame because in the process so many children have been displaced from their education, their lives have been uprooted, their parents have been through agony there and you know, to and fro for nothing. And it's about time that we, you know, we spit we have the same issues across the world, Cheryl. We know that. That's how we got talking in the first place. We have shared common ground here, and we have to have a voice to make sure that no child suffers in the process of what we're going through.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

I absolutely couldn't agree more. And ultimately what we really need to do is realise that if and you rightly say that things haven't changed, a common and constant message is that we have a cookie cookie-cutter approach to education, and my stand is firmly that there has to be a point of difference across schools, so that we're offering something unique, and it's not just from a marketing perspective, but from what can actually be delivered and and what is different. And the UK is in a wonderful position to do that because, as you said, you've got beautiful grounds, tremendous history, and it's really now a matter of the community getting together and working for their local schools and for their local independent schools to affect that change. We can't be relying on government anymore. And also the mindset mindset shift as well. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

We've got challenges, we've got financial challenges, we've got political challenges all over the world. Look what we're going through at the moment. And the thing is, we have we have to bring our teachers with us. I I did a a lecture for HPL high performance learning last week, and I said we're expecting our children to think in very deep thinking spaces. But what space are we giving our teachers to be able to do that deep thinking? To be able to bring our teachers with them and say, it's not like it used to be. We have to think differently, we have it to have a different mindset. We have to change and be flexible and adapt to the future for our children.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Couldn't agree more. Christine, this has been a fantastic conversation, and I'm looking forward to the next one because uh there's so much more to discuss and so much for you and I to do to affect that change. Oh, Cheryl, it's lovely to hear from you. I just wish you were here. Or I wish I was with you. Well, I'll I'm look, I tell you what, any invitation, I'll be back there in a heartbeat. Lovely to speak to you Cheryl. You too, Christine. Take care. Thank you for being on the show. Bye-bye. That was Christine Kerner from the LVS Ascot School in the United Kingdom. And we were discussing independent schools and the plight of education not just in Australia but the UK and around the world. And Christine certainly is well and truly aware of the issues that we're all facing.