The Cheryl Lacey Show
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The Cheryl Lacey Show
WHEN DUTY OF CARE WALKS OUT - Who's in charge?
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When teachers go on strike all manner of issues come to the fore. The home-partnerships vanishes, the state says and does as it pleases and the Commonwealth stays true to form - they're only in education for the money. There couldn't be a better time for parents, grandparents and educators to know and understand the law.
A conversation with Andrew Dalgleish
I'm very pleased to have Andrew Del Gleish on the show today, President of the Victorian Principals Association. And we're going to be talking about the issues here in Victoria because there is a strike coming up. And one of the claims that was part of preventing this strike was a four-day work week. And I believe that has been put on hold for the minute. But nevertheless, the wages of teachers is of concern and negotiations are there once again. Andrew, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Good morning, Cheryl, and welcome back after your uh your trip to the UK.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Yes, it was quite an interesting experience and we can relate locally to to issues only essentially via the paper and social media. And Andrew, I've got to say, having been there for the last three weeks, three weeks and having a good look around, social media is as concerning as mainstream media when it comes to understanding what's really going on. And we we you know we do know that, but it's certainly so much more important today to get to the bottom of the truth. And uh exactly while you're on the show to talk about the plight of principals and teachers in Victoria, what's happening?
SPEAKER_00Look, it's uh as you said, it's an interesting time, and and just sort of reflecting on what you've just said, it it's so important to be able to to work with and hear from colleagues interstate and and overseas as well. Um you you do hear different perspectives, you understand that that quite often they're they're they're dealing with the same challenges regardless of what jurisdiction or country they're in, and and that focus continues to be always on young people. But uh back to back to Victoria. Um as you said, an interesting time, plenty going on. Um there is a a proposed stop work uh to occur next Tuesday, and and schools are starting to prepare from that. Uh it's been, I understand, about 13 years since uh there's been stop work action in in uh our Victorian schools, and and that's creating a a number of challenges. One being that there are a lot of uh principals who have never experienced this before, and they're trying to juggle and understand what it is they have to do, particularly in in in requiring to to meet the duty of care for young students who may have to attend the school even if their uh their particular teacher is taking stop work action.
SPEAKER_01So, just on that, let's take a step back because you've you've put a packed a lot in there, which is terrific. We'll we'll let all of that unfold as as our conversation goes on. Thirteen years since the stop work meeting. So, what what I'm hearing from that is that from thirteen years ago to today there have been uh enterprise agreements that haven't reached the tipping point that they have today.
SPEAKER_00Look, that's correct. You know, the ever every four years we effectively have a a new enterprise bargaining agreement. Um uh however the the perception and the feeling amongst teachers, and I I'm not certainly speaking on behalf of of teachers but but of principals and educators in general, is that um the salaries uh particularly are um are just there's there's there's such a large gap occurring now between Victoria and other states. Um that's that's been a tipping point. You know, we're seeing the cost of living challenges uh hit, um, but there's been a tipping point from teachers are saying, no, we we expect uh a degree of parity with our colleagues interstate.
SPEAKER_01So that parity is essentially something relative specific to the state because you're talking about government schools. We're not talking about schools across the state, just government schools, correct?
SPEAKER_00Look, that's correct. And and an example of that is um, you know, if if you look at a graduate teacher in Victoria, uh starting salary is around 78,800 these days. Um, not an insignificant salary, I'd say. Uh, but if you compare it with New South Wales, you're looking at a salary of around about 90, uh 200. Now, that's you know, that's a that's a significant gap. And and if you're on the border, and this is where we're seeing it play out a little bit, uh, you can understand why young teachers will be saying, Well, if I get the opportunity to teach across the border, I I know where I'll go.
SPEAKER_01So we're really talking about the lack of, how do I put this, cooperation and agreement between states as to the value and worth of our teacher workforce? That's not a federal issue. It's a state-by-state issue. So what is it about Victoria that doesn't really value its teachers, or if I flipped it the other way around, are they investing in other areas? And I hear the word schools all the time in the media, and I've said for a long, long time schools are just, you know, and I'm not saying just lightly, but they are buildings and they are places where schooling takes place, and our investment seems to be in bricks and mortar, not in those working in the schools, nor in the families requiring those services.
SPEAKER_00Look, it's uh there there's that balance that you're talking about. Um and and I certainly wouldn't be saying that that government does not value teachers. Um I I uh the the conversations that I certainly have and what I see is they do, but teachers are feeling undervalued um around around the pay. Uh look, Victoria has invested significantly in capital, as uh as you've you've said. You know, I think it's something like a hundred schools have been a new schools have been opened in the last 10 years. Now that's that's a significant capital works program in anybody's in anybody's uh world. But you also need to make sure you've got the quality teachers, uh sufficient numbers of teachers uh to to fill those classrooms uh and make sure that the students' needs are being met. That's that's where that challenge sits.
SPEAKER_01So, how does the collectivism of an EBA work when it comes to what you've just said there? We need to have people on the ground, obviously, we need to have students cared for, and the big issue you said earlier is duty of care and the importance of that for students who are attending school, relying on that service, and their teachers are on strike. Let's say that's a that's happening, definitely. And uh who who cares for those students? Do we bring in people who are not qualified? And then therefore, that sort of raises the issue of what are the qualifications and capabilities of teachers in the first place, and why don't we have a merit system as opposed to a collectivist system?
SPEAKER_00Well, again, I'm I'm not the industrial relations expert, Cheryl, but uh you know, we in in Australia we have a collective bargaining uh approach, and uh the industrial organizations who represent members take that role on with government and and and in this case uh the education department has uh has unions that that go into that space. Now I believe that individuals can uh bargain as well, but generally what we see and hear the most is about uh the unions that uh that that do that that work on behalf of their members. Um we we can talk about when uh stop work action occurs. There is a duty of care that sits upon those educators to make sure that students who have to attend school are supervised accordingly, uh, and it it's not necessarily around qualifications or so on. I mean, certainly we have to have qualified educators in that position. But principals have have that particular overseeing duty of care where they must ensure that there is sufficient supervision to uh to make sure the safety of those young people is met. Now that may not be on that day uh a normal functioning classroom program because we may have insufficient teachers for that to occur. Uh, but there will be a range of opportunities or a range of options, shall I say, in schools to to ensure that that is met. Now, uh regional staff can certainly be involved in that supervisory role. Um, we would be talking about people who have working with children's checks uh and and qualifications to be able to do that as well.
SPEAKER_01So just on just to take that a step further, this responsibility will be left to the principals. So the principals are not striking, just the teachers. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Uh principals who may be members of the AEU uh are allowed to take protected stop work action. And if they do, they are required then to ensure that there is uh a nominated teacher in charge and and that information is then forwarded through to the department so that they know there is someone in charge of the school.
SPEAKER_01So, where do school councils fit in here? How how do school councils get involved in making sure that duty of care is there when the CEO, the gatekeeper of the school, isn't?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's not necessarily a school council role that that sits in around the operational matters of the school. I mean school council is governance. Certainly uh school council presidents uh are welcome, and I'll encourage them to have that discussion with the principal if they are at all concerned uh around, you know, how are we ensuring that we've got the uh the appropriate support uh and numbers in place. Uh and and the principal can certainly provide that information to them. But that's that differentiation when we're differentiation, sorry, when we're talking the governance role of of a school council versus the operational role of the principal and the staff within the school.
SPEAKER_01So there wouldn't be schools if we didn't have families, we didn't have parents who had children, and yet parents aren't part of the conversation as to the safety of their children while at school, based on what you've just said, it's not a a school council matter, it is a operational matter which is entirely in the hands of the principal. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Look, in there's certain legislations and and requirements that sit around that, Cheryl, and and you're absolutely right. Families are our our most critical partner in the education of uh of young children. You know, there's a huge trust relationship when as a parent you uh hand your child over at the school gate to the uh to the school as a trust you are going to look after their social and emotional and physical development, their academic development as all as well. But it's a partnership there, and and part of that is that trust that you'll create and have a safe environment for that child. Um, you know, those are those ongoing conversations, particularly between a teacher and a child, because that's where the key relationship is. Uh, and certainly as the leadership of a school, you you get involved with your families and parents as well. Um but again that that operational nature sits with the school. Uh and and and again, there is a multitude of legislation and ministerial orders that that put a lot of that governance in place that ensures that schools meet those those requirements.
SPEAKER_01So, where do this uh where do the constitutions sit? The federal con the Commonwealth Constitution and the state constitution. You've talked about ministerial orders and policies and so forth. What about the constitution?
SPEAKER_00Well, they're going into a level that I really can't comment that deeply on. I mean, I know with our federated model that the responsibility certainly of delivering education sits with states and territories, um, but the federation itself has a has an overseeing role around uh the funding operations and so on that sit there.
SPEAKER_01How where where does it state that states have the uh authority to control schools?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's the that's the federated model. States and territories have the uh have the role in the delivery of education.
SPEAKER_01Do you know where it says that?
SPEAKER_00I do not know, but that's the operational model that we work within.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so my under my understanding is that the Commonwealth uh constitution does not refer to to education at all. And therefore, if we go pre-constitution, parents were responsible for their children, including raising their children and their education, which I don't think has changed today. Um correct me if I'm wrong, but if if it's not a constitutional excellence. Nor am I, but let me just finish. So if there's if pre pre con pre- uh Commonwealth, uh so we're talking colonialism, parents were responsible for raising their children and therefore ensuring their education, I don't believe that has changed today. So my question to you is what does that mean specifically back to what you said about partnerships? Parents have to have a partnership with a state government in order to raise their children?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so I'll go back again as as in I'm not a constitutional expert and I don't have I'm not talking constitution now, I'm talking I'm talking relationships with the state.
SPEAKER_01That partnership and that relationship through schools, uh not necessarily the state, but but Well, it is the state because because the teachers are employed by the state.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but schools as a part of that structure um have a responsibility to deliver education for young people. Now, parents engage in partnerships at varying levels. Some parents wish to be deeply involved in the education of their children, and that to to to my view is is ideal, that's what we would like. Others are very happy to bring their children to school, drop them off, and then collect them at the end of the day, or receive them home at the end of the day with with very limited engagement. Um, you know, that's the that's the the one that sits there. Now, you know, not every not every parent has that deep engagement with the school. Um but schools certainly provide reports and feedback to parents through reporting and and parent-teacher interviews, but there's not that direct line around parents saying, Well, this is what I want my child to be taught, and this is what I don't want them to be taught, because curriculum is established through Australian curriculum authorities and then individual states that work underneath the banner of those curriculum as well.
SPEAKER_01Andrew, every time you come on the show, it opens the door for so many important conversations, and we've moved from a potential strike that's coming up in in you know a few weeks' time or a few days' time. I'm not quite sure what that date is, you'll have to remind me. Uh, and now we've moved into the constitution, now we're back to uh curriculum and again the relationship between schools and family. So it's always good to have you here. Let's uh focus on just for a moment what you've just said there regarding the parents not I think you said something to the effect of parents are not in a position to decide what their children learn in school.
SPEAKER_00But ultimately, I suppose it's it's it's around where parents engage with the curriculum. I mean curriculum authorities develop uh the curriculum for schools and and quite often regulated or not regulated reviewed as well. Um you know that that's that opportunity when parents or or parent advocacy groups have that opportunity to engage uh and discuss what the curriculum structures are.
SPEAKER_01So why why is the commonwealth offering a curriculum when the states are as you pointed out, uh according to the Constitution, albeit that we're not constitutional experts, the states are responsible for the education of children. So who cares about the Federation? Why why is uh the Commonwealth uh or the s why are the states interested in what the Commonwealth offers if they've got nothing to do with education?
SPEAKER_00Look, I think ultimately if we look at the Commonwealth, I mean that's where the uh the funds are gathered and then dispersed to uh to states and territories, not just for education but for other government services as well, and and that's where they come together to uh uh to work. You know, we know we have uh education ministers' meetings regularly where they come together to look at a range of things um that that sit there. So that that federated model or the federation of of states, the Commonwealth as we refer to, uh states and territories, the the Commonwealth as we refer to, has that collective work that they do, and I would suggest for the greater good of all.
SPEAKER_01So essentially we're happy to have the Commonwealth involved if it means we get more money. Is that how the Victorian school education system works?
SPEAKER_00No, I wouldn't I wouldn't probably put it down to that fine level around all being about money because it certainly isn't. It's it's about uh the overall delivery of education, it's around the curriculum, it's around the development of teachers, it's around looking from if I look at primary education, even discussions around pre-uh school education and and how do we better support families through thriving children or thriving kids programs, so early childhood and so on all the way through, trying to get that collective agreement together. You know, we talk about the Australian curriculum as the overarching uh model, but each state and territory, not all states adopt the Australian curriculum per se. Some will adapt it a little bit differently for their for their state and territory.
SPEAKER_01So if that's if there is a that opportunity to adapt, what we've actually got here is if I know and I'm sure you at least know about Section 109 of the Constitution. Because that talks about the operations of the country in the sense that if there is inconsistency between the State and the Commonwealth, the latter prevails, in other words, the Commonwealth. So the Commonwealth overrides any inconsistencies between the State and the Commonwealth. So if the Commonwealth does not have education clearly and explicitly stated in its constitution, and we've got an issue with families and schools in the State, the Commonwealth prevails. Parents should be the ones responsible and the ones that are jumping up and down and demanding and being supported to determine what is taught in schools and also who teaches that the uh the their children in the first instance.
SPEAKER_00Okay, then you certainly have a far greater grasp of of constitutions and what sections are uh where and and however, Cheryl. I I suppose uh if you're looking at who who gro directs and guides the constitution um or guides the curriculum, should I say, um, again, my experience would would teach me one thing that not every parent is as deeply as invested as we would like to see them in education.
SPEAKER_01Are teachers invested?
SPEAKER_00Uh absolutely they all of them? Um I'd say well, is it the same in any uh in any any industry? Are all nurses invested, are all police, are all soldiers? I mean it's a really interesting question you ask, but I can't comment uh uh emphatically around if all teachers or all principals are invested. Um, you know, and what level of investment are you talking?
SPEAKER_01I mean it it's likewise with parents. I mean, just because they're not present on the premises, just because a parent isn't on site doesn't mean they're not invested in their children's education.
SPEAKER_00Uh you know, I'm not saying that they're not, but it it there's a varying range of investment andor engagement with education as there may be with health or or other areas that that government are responsible for providing significant services in.
SPEAKER_01Andrew, uh again a terrific conversation and we've hit a tipping point at the end of this, uh started with a tipping point of uh realising that 13 years is you know everything's been kosher, if you will, in Victoria with agreements between government and uh unions in negotiating teachers' salaries, and we've hit that tipping point, and in our conversation we have two hit that tipping point, which is great because when we get back, when I get you back on air and hopefully very, very soon, let's talk about where we finished off, and that is the engagement of parents in their children's education. And section 109, let's both do a little bit more homework and discuss it because you as an advocate for principles in Victoria are in a very, very unique position to be able to ensure that families do get that service and principals if they are uh in a position to embrace the responsibility of parents and work uh together, then chances are we won't have the issues we've got uh in schools with you know girls becoming cats and teachers buying kitty litter and things like that that we've seen in the last few years and the um mental health issues because of the uh naive immediate introduction of technologies and and so forth and all then all manner of issues that we've dealt with. You're in a great position, and I really do want us to continue the the conversation next time from that perspective.
SPEAKER_00Look, absolutely, Cheryl, and and thanks for that opportunity. I mean, you know, hopefully next time we come together things are settled. Schools have the investment uh in in our young people that we require, um, you know, because that's what it is. You know, quite often I hear it's an expense or it's it's a cost, and I I I disagree, it's an investment into our future, and we need to look at what that investment is and how we spend it wisely to get the best outcomes for our young people.
SPEAKER_01Couldn't agree more, and I think that starts with taking a dollar figure off children and and investing in families. Would you agree? You're a parent?
SPEAKER_00I totally agree. Yeah, a parent and a grandparent. You know, we want to see that investment hitting where it needs so that every young person has the opportunity to thrive in our in our society. You know, we've heard the language around um you know it shouldn't matter regardless of uh postcode or uh or colour or creed or or religion, every child should have the opportunity. Now, unfortunately in Australia that's just not the case the way our education is funded. But that's Whole different conversation that we can we can have down the track.
SPEAKER_01Excellent, fantastic. So next time, section 109, do a bit of homework, I'll do a bit more, and we're going to go hell for leather on that one. Sound good?
SPEAKER_00Sounds good.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well done. Thanks, Andrew. Terrific to have you on the show. Be well.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Cheryl. Bye.
SPEAKER_01You're on the Cheryl Lacey Show, and we've just had Andrew Dal Gleish, president of the Victorian Principles Association, discussing the strike that's coming up here in Victoria with teachers. 13 years they've been working with uh EBAs that have been fine. We've hit a tipping point.