BEN ROBERTS SMITH From hero to handcuffs

Ben Roberts-Smith's story is unlike any in Australian military history. Decorated with the Victoria Cross, celebrated as a national hero, then  a defamation trial that first relied on 'balance of probabilities' to criminal charges he now faces. And, the deeper question: what does this means for the Australian Defence Force if this is how Australia treats its bravest soldiers. Who will be willing to serve?

A conversation with Mike Holt

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

You're listening to the Cheryl Lacey Show where curiosity meets courage, and it's terrific to have you joining us as we move into a conversation that I'm sure is something that will be happening all around the country today. And that is the, if I dare say, absolutely abhorrent announcement that Ben Roberts Smith, former SAS soldier and Victoria Crosswinner, has been arrested on allegations of war crimes. Now we've really got to digest this. Being arrested on allegations of war crimes. War is war. And we have wars for a reason, and we have people defending our their own citizens and their own nations in times of war, that the rules are very different. The rules of war are very different to the everyday rules that we live by. An extraordinary set of circumstances, and uh we have Mike Holt, our common law commentator on the show to discuss this very, very important issue with us this morning. Mike, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Thank you. Yes, uh as a as a veteran myself, a Vietnam veteran, I'm very upset with this attack on our best soldier. I don't get it. But obviously, this is uh what would you say, this is a it's orchestrated from the top by the then ADF Chief General Angus Campbell, and it's just a blatantly political virtue selling uh signaling left ideologic rubbish. I mean, we send these young fellows to war, train them up, spend millions of dollars getting them into operational readiness, we send them over there, and then when they come back, they're attacked. Nobody's gonna join the ADF if they keep doing this. But I just want to make a little point here that I think most people have forgotten. Um on the night of August 29th, 2012, a Taliban sleeper agent in the Afghan National Army massacred three Australian soldiers in cold blood as they prepared to sleep on their own base. Now their names were Private Robert Pot, Sappa James Martin, and Lance Corporal Rick Milosevic. And the rogue Afghan soldier was named Hekmatrullah, which was a fourth insider or green on blue attack by Taliban sleeper agents in the Afghan National Army against Australian soldiers in 15 months. And out of the 41 Australians who died in Afghanistan, seven died by way of these insider attacks. And these attacks are technically constitute the war crime of perfidy.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

And just take a step back, Mike. What is perfidy?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Perfity is I think you I gee, I'm not a a a a dictionary, but I think perfity means acting um without truth, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Okay, so continue. I'll take a look at that as you as you're continuing. Sorry to interrupt there.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Now technically speaking, Peck Metallah's attack was a war crime under Article 37 of Additional Protocol I, 1977, to the Geneva Conventions. And that prevents uh prohibits perferty as an act of war. So, you know, we have this poor young man, and I've met this guy at the gym only for once, but I was very impressed with him. I mean, he is a big unit. I mean, I'm six foot and he towered over me, and his his um biceps are thicker than my um my thighs.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Look, uh it was actually mentioned on a show earlier on, a qu uh a question was asked of me. Would I feel safe walking down the street with Ben Roberts Smith walking beside me? And of course, no question, would you feel safe? And just it's an interesting point you make on a number of fronts. First of all, I've never heard of those gentlemen who lost their lives. Very, very tragic, and that really goes to something, doesn't it, that we do not hear enough about the people who have given their lives in our defence. The opposite is happening where we're saying this man is a disgrace and we're going to throw the keys at the man and and jail him for life if we possibly can. It it's just extraordinary. The other side of it is that just to you mentioned that you'd met Ben Robert Smith, his physique and how healthy he is and how strong he is. The discipline of these individuals, and you well know, having been a vet veterinam veteran yourself, but more so when you see people like Ben Robert Smith, the discipline to be of that not only strength physically, but the strength of character required to get to that physical strength is something that we I think we all take for granted and don't even really think about in this instance.

unknown 5:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

And you know, Ben was a perfect example of that, what you might call quiet humility, and he that's what impressed me when I spoke to him. Um he was just quietly hu uh human, you know. Uh and what he did, let's face it, we if you were in a war situation and you can't tell the enemy from the civilians because they all dress the same, uh, and and the the the combatants, enemy combatants, hide amongst the civilians, how do you know who to who to fight? You don't. And if if Ben, and I'm saying a very big if if Ben really did kill civilians like that, then he would have had a very good reason for doing so, because he would have sussed out, um, and he's not a stupid man, he's a very smart man, he would have sussed out that these people were a danger to him and his unit. And therefore he took action, which was he was trained to do. It's just wrong, this whole attack. And it's it's undermining the the military, uh, and who's going to join the military when that when they realize that they could be implicated in war crimes without their knowledge, and and you know, it just goes against all common sense.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

It does indeed. And there are a number of well-known Australians coming out in defence of Ben Robert Smith, not in the same way, in a variety of ways. Tony Abbott, our former Prime Minister, has come out speaking by and large around the timeline and suggesting that if if something like this had happened, why has it taken so long to unfold? So he he's he's really talking about the time in which th these deaths occurred and the lack of process, if you will, or the the untimely manner of the process. Pauline Hansen, on the other hand, our the One Nation leader from Queensland, is saying that she stands by Ben Roberts Smith 100%. And uh no bones about it. We know Pauline is quite forward-thinking and speaks her mind all the time. And Gina Reinhardt has come out and said she does not understand this. She slammed the prosecutors for pursuing Ben Robert Smith and other SAS veterans. But more importantly, and I think when Gina Reinhardt did come out over this one, it comes back to the fact that not only is this about Ben Robert Smith, but it's about dividing the very defence force that has to work together to perform their roles and functions effectively. So this is just a horrible, horrible situation for all concerned. Dividing the defence force in a case against a Victoria Cross recipient.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

It's ridiculous. But Lawrence, your previous um guest, made a very important um statement there. He said, it's very it's fine for you to believe whatever you've done well like, but you do not have the right to force your beliefs on us. And this is a a problem that comes from the very top of our g our uh country. The government is framing this uh this uh what do you call it? Um, you know, this this rubbish about, oh yes, well, we've got to allow these boys into the army because they're gays and you know we can't just discriminate. Well, when I was in the military and I was in a war situation, I didn't want a gay standing beside me. I couldn't be sure whether he'd scream and run away or or defend me, you know, or support me. You you it's just not right. It doesn't work that way. In a battle, you've got to re rely one hundred percent on your fellow soldiers. And if you don't have that that support and and confidence, you can't fight effectively.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Jenna Reinhardt has also said that uh she's up in arms uh regarding the three hundred million dollars that's been spent so far on cr criminal proceedings, including the Ben Roberts situation. Now, let's give this some thought. Three hundred million dollars spent over years and years and years to try to prosecute our most brave citizens. That money is only going into the law system. You know, lawyers are getting richer by the day with all of these cases that shouldn't be tried in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

No, to be honest with you, I think the army should take up arms and take down the government because that's the only way we're gonna get rid of this rubbish.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Oh, absolutely. Can you imagine that? Citizens' arrests everywhere. That's exactly what we need, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yes, exactly. And actually, uh I can't say too much about this, but behind the scenes the um there are moves taking place um that are gonna uh basically get rid of this this government and bring in a much better government system.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Well you know what's fascinating as well is that this has hit the world stage. As much as we're hearing about President Trump and the way in which he's being treated, I am appalled with that as well. You heard me in the introduction, Mike, when the media is quoting one sentence, a whole civilization will die tonight. That is not the entire story. So this is again causing no end of division, pain, fear. Goodness knows you could throw any number of adjectives at this. And Australia is listening, Australia is watching as we should do. Same thing applies here with Ben Roberts Smith. Elon Musk has even come out and commented. And that is really interesting. And also you know the fact that not just Elon Musk, you've got other people internationally speaking out uh again saying things like uh this sounds insane.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

And it is. It is insane. I mean, what insane person would come up with this stupid idea? You send a soldier off to war, he kills the enemy, and then, oh no, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

What? So let's let's let's talk about that for a little moment here because one of the other issues with this case, and for this that have just joined us, you're listening to the Cheryl Lacey show where Curiosity Meets Courage, and Mike Holt and I are discussing the announcement that Ben Robert Smith, former SAS soldier, and Victoria Crosswinner has been arrested on allegations of war crimes. Now, with this whole issue, we've also got the situation where these allegations have come out of a civil court case and one person who was adjudicating this civil court case. This is just th so we sure they they've now arrested him and there will be potentially a trial, but to get to trial defamation is is essentially what has caused this. Yet on the other hand, we've had defamation, I think, of uh Brittany Higgins and the situation there and I think of Dan Andrews and his defamation trial coming up now. Is defamation and uh civil uh uh situations going to be the next wave in which we see criminal law being played out as a result.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Look, with the Labour government that we have now and the Parliament that we have now, let's face it, everyone sitting in that parliament is guilty of of treason. Uh I just don't have any faith in government at all. I think we need to change the whole system.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Well, you and I both. We we say that you know, every week we we talk about that. And from this instance here we've got the basically the views of one individual saying that on the balance of probabilities Ben Roberts murdered these people and he you know is worthy of being arrested. Balance of probabilities is the term being used to justify him being arrested.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Right. What's the balance of probabilities mean?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

That's my point. That's my point.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Look, this all started with the Beratan saga, and that's just been going on and on, and that's what got um Ben in this situation. Uh and it's blatantly political. That's all. This is a a political attack on some of our strongest men to try and weaken men, and you you covered this in your earlier um uh shows this morning with your other uh guests. It's weakening it, and this is what the government has been doing. This communist government and this communist system that we are now under is designed to destroy the family values, to destroy the male um strength, to create women who think that they're not good enough and they have to compete with men uh and m men losing their minds and change and deciding to change their sex, which we all know is absolute rubbish. You can't do it. DNA is DNA, it's locked in. And no matter how much how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Absolutely. Now I've got a couple of comments uh that have come in, Mike, and let's discuss those. The first one is uh he's a comment, and it's people like Peter Cosgrove will be keeping their head down regarding Ben Robert Smith, as undoubtedly he will have been a part of similar actions in his service in Vietnam. And that's from Peter. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

I would say that he'd not only need to keep his head down, he'd need to try and keep it on his on his shoulders because a lot of people are gumming for the politicians now, not just the ones in power now. We know who the criminals are and we've got it all documented. So, you know, karma works, Cheryl. I've seen karma work too many times to not believe it. Karma is coming for these criminals, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Indeed. Okay, and then this other one is saying that Ben will not be judged by a jury of his peers. He'll be judged by people who haven't and wouldn't have wanted to be placed into the chaos and extreme pressure that Ben was.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah, exactly right. And you know, I I I'm worrying about this jury trial. What because I know from my own experience when I was on trial in Victoria, uh the jury was obviously chosen to go against me. It was quite clear, I mean, they were all afraid to look me in the eye. Not one of them would look me in the eye through the house the whole six days of my trial. Um, and it was a foregone con foregone conclusion. I knew it was coming, they knew it was coming. I guess even the judge knew it was coming the way she behaved. So, you know, we don't have a justice system in this country. We have uh an ideological criminal cartel putting people in jail for nothing. Now, the reason I was put on trial was because I tried to defend in an article a a friend of mine, well, I only knew him by phone, but you know, we'd spoken for uh quite a few years over the phone, and I felt quite close to him. Um and he was arrested uh during that anti-terrorism sweep in Melbourne. I think they wrote it about 18 people, and he was the only one that was arrested. And the only reason why he was arrested was because he was an amateur scientist and he was trying to replicate some of uh Tesla's experiments, and he had a minute piece of um uh merc fulminate of mercury, which can be used to um start an explosion. But I mean, he was doing small experiments, it wasn't enough to start a damn terrorist war, and they just railroaded him, they put him in prison for three years, no trial, solitary confinement, out of out of the the cell one hour a day for exercise. And I was trying through that that whole three year period, I was trying to tell people what was going on with him and ask for his trial. Eventually, they succumbed and they put him on trial. He got twelve years for doing nothing. Yes. And this is the state of our country today.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Oh, indeed. Indeed. Now, just to wrap this up, I just want to share this quote with you from Gina Reinhardt. This is what she says. It's in the uh the Sydney Morning Herald this morning. The relentless attack on Ben Roberts Smith hasn't made the country better, as some journalists like to imply. It's just weakened our defence force already struggling with inadequate numbers to defend us. It couldn't be said much better than that. We do have inadequate numbers, we do require defence, and as you rightly pointed out, this is being watered down but also destroyed completely by those in power. And when we say those in power, again you and I have had these conversations, it's not just the current government, it's consecutive governments and opposition who have enabled it to get to this point.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah. Yep, it's a con it's it's a conspiracy. And they they accuse us of being conspirators. I I'm sorry, no. The government is a conspirators these days.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Indeed, and we must remember above all else that Ben Robert Smith, as has you and so many other in the defence force, have chosen uh really hardship and as part of their loyalty and devotion to their duties.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I went through um basic training as a seventeen-year-old young fella, and it was tough, very tough. You know, I mean we we were gassed, we were marched forced marched ten kilometers down the road with rucksacks full of rocks. Uh we had to crawl through the jungle, we're through sand, we were um out on the ri rifle range. I mean, it was very tough training, and I was only in the Air Force. I can't imagine how tough it would be for an SAS soldier.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Absolutely, absolutely. Just it's I I'm lost for words, and I'm sure you are, Mike, but it's something that we'll continue to be following through today and in coming days, and no doubt there'll be more to discuss about this. Once again, terrific always having you on the show, Mike, and I think this is quite a our listeners would uh agree that this is quite an impassioned conversation as it should be. And if we're going to be curious and courageous, as this show is what it's all about, we need to everybody be having this conversation today about what's happening with Ben Roberts Smith and also keeping an eye on the clock with 10 o'clock and the announcement from Donald Trump. So thank you again for being on the show, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

My pleasure, and thank you very much for having me on. And just one final word. If the government wants to survive, I would suggest they cancel this whole thing, this attack on Ben Roberts, and start acting like human beings.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

I think that sounds like a plan. You're on 88.9 WinFM, the Cheryl Lacey show, that was Mike Holt, our resident conversationalist around common law and all things important to Australia.