OVERFLOW: All eyes on principal wellbeing

Most principals are dedicated to their schools, their staff, and their students, no matter the pressure. But dedication alone isn't enough. With so many challenges facing school leaders, professional support isn't optional, it's essential.

A conversation with Andrew Cock

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

You're listening to the Cheryl Lacey Show, where curiosity meets courage, and it's always great to have your company, and I have no doubt you're going to learn a lot from our next guest, Andrew Cock, President of the Australian Principals Federation. Now Andrew's based in Melbourne, has been a school principal in a number of government schools in Victoria, and is also now a recognised commentator in the media with articles in various magazines. So he's a force to be reckoned with, and it's fantastic to have him on the show. Welcome, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Uh thanks, Cheryl. Uh thanks for having me on this morning.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Pleasure. Andrew, you've got a very, very critical role because you're essentially, if I could say, holding hands of educators who are trying to deal with, and if I could put it in your words, uh the decline of teacher well-being and its impact on principals. They're not isolated from anything, are they? And they're dealing not just with day-to-day matters in schools, but also the emotional and moral implications that has on principals and the wider community.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah, I think uh you've hit the nail on the head there. The reality is that schools are becoming more and more complex and uh it is uh you know, teacher well-being goes hand in hand with principal well-being, and uh we continue to advocate in that space to really ensure that uh, you know, all of our children here in Victoria are getting the the very best of education and uh uh you know we want to have see the best teachers in front of those classes and by default we need the best the very best leaders running those schools.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

And so to do that, uh there are certain things that principals cannot delegate, and there are other things that they can delegate, and that delegation obviously requires effective middle management, etc., in schools, and also obviously the the desire and will of others who want to continue to grow professionally. It also means working closely with the community and the school board, or in the case of of government schools, the school councils. It's a whole of community issue at the end of the day, isn't it? So principals and your role in supporting them is uh absolutely essential for the health of the community more broadly.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Uh absolutely, and and we know the impact uh that uh you know uh early stages of schooling have uh on on creating social cohesion and social um uh value in in our s in society as a whole. Um and as you were touching on there, you know, context becomes so important because it is. It's about uh how do we engage that it that whole community and uh you know, for you know, it is such an important piece that uh our children spend uh a large portion of their day and their lives uh in classrooms and you know bringing parents along in in that partnership is is really important as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

I've I had on the show just before uh Dr. Andy Johnson, professor of literacy in Minnesota in the United States, and he was talking about uh the issues that they face with regard to the the lack of professional development that's ongoing for teachers to give them the autonomy that's required. And I'm showing my age here as Andy did on the show as well, that we used to have many years ago with teaching where certainly there was a curriculum that that was required to be followed, but there was also room for teacher autonomy and flexibility in in what they taught, how they taught, more importantly, how they engaged students and the and therefore families as well. Why is that disappearing?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

I I think there's probably a there's there's a number of factors I think that are at play um of why that's disappearing. I think uh we're seeing a change um in our students that uh are coming to school. Uh I think there's a societal change. Um gosh, I hope that I hope none of none of my uh previous colleagues are listening to this this morning because uh they will have heard me on this sub box. Uh uh one of the things I love is language and when uh Cheryl, when you and I went to school, what did we what did we go to? We went to to prep. It was preparatory, it was to prepare you for school.

unknown 4:17

And that was what did our parents want?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

They probably wanted that maternal loving teacher that was going to, you know, guide their little four or five-year-old when we first stepped into school. Um the language around it now, what's our first year of schooling called? It's now foundation, it's the foundation year of learning. Um and we you we can have a personal and professional conversation around this one, um, whether it's right or wrong, um, but that's what we're seeing more and more in schools is that uh our children enter their first year of schooling, uh, many of them able to read and write or having uh some literacy uh background. But we also um are experiencing parents that are sending their children, and that's what they want from that first year of schooling. They want their children to be learning to read and write and um and uh expand their academic knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Andrew, you really hit on something critical here and that is language. And like you, I'm a a lover of language and unpacking the meanings behind words and how we actually confuse them or conflate them, uh, depending on the conversation we're having and the agenda that we we actually have. And language is really the foundation for the conversations that build these important relationships. And I can see us having many conversations, Andrew, now that you've uh raised that issue. And preparatory and foundation are two very different things, on one hand uh or they could be seen as uh very much the same. So it's really what's happening in that year. And I'm sort of leaning now towards what you said with parents is unlike when I was a child and when you were a child, uh, childcare centres and uh universal childcare has become such a dominant force in the lives of families and society that that preparation has uh been a long time coming outside of the home before children hit school.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Absolutely, and uh, you know, some of those uh things that we experienced uh, you know, with uh with uh you know, early uh rhymes and uh some of those, you know, traditional s uh fairy tales and all of those sorts of things are now being delivered in different ways, that they're delivered in a group setting out of childcare or or long day care. And um, you know, you understand the reasoning why families uh more and more are acquiring, you know, uh two incomes um and those sorts of situations. Um but it is uh you know it is one of those things that we're seeing now in schools as well that uh many of the children are stepping in with that that experience um not just the kindergarten experience as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Let's get back to uh the role of principals in schools because you've you it it's a natural segue from what you've just talked about there with uh care and concern and and foundations and and preparatory measures and so forth. Regardless of what we call something and regardless of how we see the way schools unfolding, change is inevitable. And it seems that the changes uh whether they be uh too rapid or that we're not prepared for change, I'm not quite sure, and this is where I'm leaning in my question. What has really, in your view, led to the amount of uh stress and I I know it's a big question, but the amount of stress and the need for emphasis on well-being in schools that we haven't experienced in the past?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, I think I think it's probably just uh and it's funny that you you your intro there was uh talking about change, because it's probably some of it is about the change that's occurred in schools. Um I think there's scenarios where we're seeing more and more responsibilities being placed uh on schools, things that and and maybe it loop that does uh connect to our uh previous conversation, uh it's things like, you know, now we're teaching bike education and swimming at school, where once upon a time they were a parental responsibility. Uh so I think some of that has changed. Uh I think the other big change uh is that we um we see that uh that you know in terms of the administrative side and the the workload that goes alongside the administrative side, the red tape uh sort of thing, once upon a time, probably when we were at school shell, the uh you know if the teacher wanted to take us on a little excursion down to the local park to look at the cookabows in the trail or whatever, we probably just did it. Um where now, you know, we have to go through the full uh excursion process, make sure we've got parent permission and go through all of the steps required. Um that takes a lot more time and headspace uh for the teachers and principals uh to do that. I think uh and going hand in hand with the academic conversation we were having, I think the um requirement of our teachers in terms of the uh planning and the assessment and and the data that they're they're now utilising in their roles is very different to what was was once done as well. Um, I I do think that I I often use the analogy of uh a you know an accountant is not going to turn up to a meeting without his numbers. Uh so you know teachers need to be in that same vein. Um, you know, bringing to meetings uh the student assessment and the student examples of work so that they know what that next step is to take uh their children to their to the next level.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

It's it's interesting that that we have a lot of analogies, and and that's an in uh one that you've just said there about the accountant having his numbers and and the teacher having you know the student samples of work. Uh I'm gonna save that because I want to have a really long conversation about that one next time we we converse. I want to stick with what you just said a moment ago about uh administration and you s you talked about excursions and so forth. I wonder how much we're bringing on ourselves this weight and pain. I recall uh many years ago now uh we used to have we did have uh swimming teaching in, you know, in I remember uh uh swimming classes when I attended school. Uh but more importantly the uh administrative role of excursions. We used to have an annual uh uh uh permission form. That's right. And the annual permission form had it it gave the boundaries of distance that we would go on, it would be walked outside of the school, that it didn't matter when you did it, the parents had approved and knew it would be happening, all we needed was uh some additional volunteers and that was the the the regular communication with with uh uh families for that to occur. And then we also had the wider one where it was ec uh incursions where people would come into the school and so forth and it would be budgeted accordingly. So it took away the weight of that administration. It seems as though we've we there's this overcure that we keep accepting that we shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

And I think uh and I don't know fingers crossed we don't see it uh certainly that we could probably know some of the countries around the world where you know society is uh down more down the uh I guess more litigious sort of path. Um, you know, some of it is around, I guess, protecting our school staff though, to ensure that our parents are fully informed about whatever it is that might be happening uh with their child on that day. So I it is I d I I I understand uh where you're coming from, but uh you know at the same time I also think there's that perspective of um that we also do need to keep our parents informed to make sure that uh we've got them on board too.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Oh, look, absolutely. It's it's a minefield, isn't it? And and organisations such as yours are certainly critical because you are the voice across the board and that gives uh communities broadly an understanding of what's happening and obviously it keeps that cohesion with the principals. What makes your organisation different to the AEU, for example, and uh other organisations that support principals?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, so so we are we are the uh essentially we are the union for the principal class here in our Victorian government schools, so we represent uh the principal class right across uh primary, secondary and special schools, um right across the state as well. So that's what really does make us different. Um we are not compromised, we are principals only. Uh so we can we really do advocate and and we are the voice of of the principals. Um so our our approach is really to work closely with um the department will uh obviously because we want to be part of the solution. Um so when you know when we hear uh the frustrations from our principals in schools, we hear um the challenges that they're facing, uh, and that's the opportunity for us to be able to advocate and and be that real voice of the principals. Um it is the best job in the world, uh, but it is complex and challenging. And and then and it's uh and I think you know some of the things we've already touched on this morning um are are adding to those challenges, but at the same time, uh I think you know it is uh how we are able to to fashion it into such a um wonderful place and we we have wonderful schools here in Victoria. We are we are really incredibly lucky with the uh great schools that we've got and the great school leaders that we've got around the state and uh we will continue to to to advocate on their behalf and uh speak positively about the profession because uh it was something you touched on earlier that I sort of didn't didn't uh pick up, but maybe it's another conversation for another day too, is is some of those middle managers and how do we um you know build in that succession planning and upskilling those uh principal uh assistant principals and leading teachers around the state that say they want to be a principal in a school because uh it is a fabulous job and you get to work with you know incredible children and incredible families around it as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Well, one thing's for sure is that I can hear your passion in your voice and if you are focused entirely on the principal class, which you are, and you are that union representing the principals, it certainly makes it so much easier as well when there are negotiations to take place, when there are disputes, but also knowing that there is that one forum and that one support base. So thanks for being on the show, Andrew. We do have a lot more to discuss, so I'm looking forward to having you back uh fairly soon. Be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Thanks, Cheryl, absolutely anytime. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Take care. Andrew Koch, the president of the Australian Principles Federation.