WHO LEADS THE LEADER?: Mentoring and a big tick for vulnerability

The heroic leader who carries everything and asks for nothing is not sustainable and everyone in the school pays the price. Mentoring leaders is key for school leaders. Can reduction of compliance lead to more personalised leadership?

A conversation with Brad Gaynor.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

And of course you're with the Cheryl Lacey Show where Curiosity Meets Courage, and it's always good to have your company. And this morning's leadership conversation is going to be with Brad Gaynor, educational leader in the primary sector, but also a leading author now with a number of books out, particularly on the issue of leadership. And it's really quite an interesting one because there are many terms and phrases that are used now and applied to the leadership role. And that's one of the things that Brad has focused on very heavily in one of his latest books, Burnout to Breakthrough, the subtitle The Leadership Reset. And he talks about redefining leadership because of a lot of leadership fatigue. Welcome to the show, Brad.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Thanks well, thanks for having me on. It's lovely to um to be talking to you again.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Indeed, indeed, indeed. Now, Brad, redefining leadership, why do we have to redefine it?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Because I think look I think we've got this sense that uh leadership has to be heroic, that you know, the leader has to always be on, always be available, 24-7. Um and I think that's what's really led to burnout. And I think we need to readjust that and not have you know people, leaders, at any level burning out. And I think it's leadership I mean burnout isn't to me a personal thing. To me it's more of a systems and structures um issue. So when I talk about redefining, I think we need to redefine what leadership is in terms of our systems and our structures to allow leaders to be able to thrive rather than burn out. Um so so that really is essentially what the book is, I suppose, it's uh about.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Okay, Brad, just if you could just check your sound there. It seems to be uh i i whether or not you're moving around, I'm not quite sure, but it's a bit hazy here, so if you could just check that that would be great.

unknown 2:02

Yep. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Is that better? Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Uh that's a little bit better. Uh sorry. Okay. Good. So in terms of burnout and as you phrase it, uh leadership fatigue, is it essentially because we've not quite determined what it is our roles are and therefore there is overreach and where the there are there are boundaries that are being crossed over?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

I I think it's I think it's all of that. I think it's it's sometimes it is up to individu up to the individual. The individual does push himself too hard um to try and prove himself, then like I said, there's that sort of heroic um element to it. Um but I think a lot of it is really about the systems that set up that to that that's the expectation. The expectation is for leaders to be to be like that, to um to always be on. And I just think we've got to change we've got to sh we've got to shift that and and make leadership so much more sustainable, right? Um, especially moving forward, especially in a society that we've got at the moment, with so many different conditions um affecting uh leaders in in any in any capacity. I think we've just got to restructure how leadership is perceived.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

So what keeps school principals up at night?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Oh goodness. Um a lot of things. It's it's d it's definitely well it I I ideally it's it's it's relationships you you have. So it's with it's your staff. Ideally that should be the that's the focus. So those sort of things certainly keep you up at night. It could be a teacher going through uh s specifically something, you know, in their personal lives. It could be a uh a family that you're that you're trying to support, or a difficult student that you're trying to sort of get to the bottom of. But it's it's it's definitely that, but it's also now becoming more and more as the job is so compliance based and there's so many governance structures. I know a lot of principals um and school leaders are staying up at night trying to just get on top of all the policies and procedures and reports that are due and all these things that are sort of taking them away from the corporate education is about. But but that is the nature of of the job at the moment. So those sorts of things are definitely keeping people up at night because it they uh all the leaders I talk to during the day at w at at the school they're they're really trying to be with the the students and and the teachers, trying to be instructional leaders, trying to be coaches, trying to be mentors, that a lot of that um paperwork and compliance work can only really be done, you know, after after after hours, so to speak, to keep up with it.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

When you say compliance, that where is that coming from?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

A lot of it is coming from the government, um, a lot of it is coming from the actual system itself. But you look I mean if you take the example of um a student with with with needs, um, you know, you're getting government funding for that particular student, so say that that student's an extensive student, um, which is great, you just create this government supporting students, but then the for the the school they've got to be in in a way justify what what is happening with that with that money. So there's you know personalised plans, and then every year there's the NCCD audits where you you know schools are sort of have got to submit all their paperwork about what where their funding's going and and what that actual funding is doing for that particular student. So you've got to write down all the um the habits the tasks of being differentiated for that student, things like that. So all of that is is is paperwork. Um and comes with that is uh additional meanings for parents, so you've got to you know set goals for parents, which is it's all fantastic work and it's all necessary, but it's just creating such a burden for the classroom teacher and then for you know the school. Some of it is it sort of filters down. Um and then you know, systems just have to be compliant. So there's lots of you know things coming from the system as well. And so there's some some principles may you know could put a bit too much pressure on the staff for other areas that may be are necessary or unnecessary, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah. Brad, I sorry, I'm going to harp on you the sound again. You you might be speaking through a headset or something because it's really I'm I mean, I'm I've got the phone right in front of me. Okay, well it's maybe too close to your mouth. It's yeah, it's it's really it's uh just because you've your responses are terrific and I I just don't want our listeners to be missing out.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

I'll take it off speaker and let's see if that helps.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Oh thank you. That's what the problem was.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Oh my gosh, clear as anything. Thank you. Terrific. Now so we're talking about uh the the compliance that's required. And there's often conversations about funding. You mentioned special needs or needs-based funding. And there's often that conversation that this funding goes into consolidated revenue. It doesn't necessarily get to the child that the the formula has enabled the funding to reach the school in the first place. Is that a distinction between the government and independent sector, or do all sectors have the funds go into consolidated funds to start with?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Well, my my um my take on it is that the the funding now is because you're so accountable for it, it has to it it you yeah, it has to be justified and be seen to go to the students. That's why you've got so many personalised plans that are um have to be updated regular, because that's the justification that this actual money is actually targeting this particular particular student. Um in some systems, I'm you know, I'm sure some of that funding goes towards having the support services and the Allied Health people, like you know, your OTs and your speech therapists and your behaviour therapists, and and and that's all well and good, and that's all extremely necessary to support support schools. But I would say, I mean, I can sort of comment probably on the on the independent sector, um the money definitely goes towards the student, and has to go towards the student. And we're probably more um in terms of compliance, we probably have to justify it more than than government schools.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And you mentioned personalised learning. Doesn't that affect everybody? So are there personalised learning plans for every student or just those that get additional funding?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Um well in in a lot of schools it's um for those students with with needs, and so that then they're categorized. Um so you might have students that are uh supplementary, substantial, extensive. Um but all all students, all teachers when you know when they're planning a lesson, plan for not only the students that you know are on plans, but they will they know their students. So they know their class, they know okay, I've got I've got to pitch a little bit for this group, a little bit for this group, a little bit for this group, and some extension activities. So differentiation happens all the time, but for students on particular plans that they've got set goals, you've got to try to achieve those goals. So in your program you've got to have the adjustments quite highlighted. So there's an activity, this is the adjustment for for Cheryl, this is the adjustment for Brad, so that child can access full learning like everyone else, but at at the at at the appropriate level.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Now, in the media this morning there's a horrifying report that childcare centres are failing in national standards, and for many childcare centres they haven't been assessed for up to four years. Which is, you know, you think about the amount of funding that goes to childcare and also the age of the client if you will the children themselves. And a lack of assessment for a four-year period. Horrifying. What sort of assessments do schools go through? And particularly with the leadership uh second question here is what is the consequence if there are failing standards?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Well, in schools, um I know most schools have a five-year cycle of of of sort of registration and compliance. So within that five years, um that's when the um policies and programs um have to be continually uh are updated, and then depending on on the sector, there's some sort of a review. Um I've been involved in reviews as a principal where you have a team of people coming in and they they go through all your paperwork, um, visit classrooms to make sure that you know everything's sort of going along smoothly, and then you get a report about what's been really good and maybe some actions for the future. Um now um I've also been on where I've been the one going into schools and providing some of the information for the report. So that happens a lot in in a lot of in a lot of areas. Um but also too there's um in the sectors I'm I'm aware of, um, audits for you know policies, programs you know, regularly. Um especially around, especially if it's compliant annual reports, that sort of thing, where you you sort of got to um have things certain things done at certain times and and they're sort of not scrutinized, but they're sort of examined and things like that. So that sort of stuff happens quite quite regularly um in in schools, um, which is good because you know that obviously flows back into the to their particular sector and you know whatever supports need to be changed or updated at as a sector. And in terms of principals, most principals are on a on a contract of some description. Um so then they would there's usually a review um like I know in some of the sectors I'm a I I work with is you know usually you have a review after the first two years, so you have that foundational phase and you set goals, and then there's you know usually five years or five years after that depends on on the on the contract length. Um but yeah, there's usually some sort of review goal setting um coaching uh aligned with that. So you the the principals always sort of r reviewing and um their own practice and setting goals for the future.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

And with that review, you've obviously got mentors as well who assist you with your role but also perhaps through that review process. What are some of the more difficult situations for principals where they're going it alone and have to constantly rely on their own capabilities even when they're newbies in the role and don't necessarily have the experience?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Well, that's where I think as you said as you mentioned, that sort of support, that mentorship, those structures are really, really important. Um I know a lot of sectors have really strong foundation programs where um sort of network is created um with those new people and they're often there's you know um some professional learning specifically designed for them, and that could be on you know a range of things to do with finances and budgets, down to policy, down to um you know goal setting with staff, you know, instructional leadership, all those sorts of things. So most of the sectors I'm aware of have very strong foundation principle programs so that person isn't alone. Um and often they've got a uh an official mentor um who like a it's often another principal that they that's their go-to person. Um sometimes you know you don't want to like I'm I'm a mentor to quite a few foundation principals, but I'm from sort of the office perspective. So they'll call me for something. Do I know they'll probably call their principal buddy to say, you know, what do I do? I'm not too sure. Um and there's always there's always support. Um and I I it's rare, I think, these days that you would find a uh early foundational principal who doesn't have a support system around them. It's imperi it's imperative for their success.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

You're listening to the Cheryl Lacey show where curiosity meets courage. And I'm speaking with Brad Gaynor, principal from New South Wales, and he's also a an author with a particular focus on leadership. So this is what we've been discussing for those listeners that have just joined us. When you're talking about leadership, Brad, which we have been discussing this morning, it's uh often an internally focused conversation, and rightly so, because we are dealing with what you are doing inside the school. However, all of your decisions that are made affect the broader community and particularly the parents would be quite uh you know in tune with what is and isn't happening on a day-to-day basis, you would hope. So, how do you build trust with parents and the broader community around your given leadership approach?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Look, uh I think a huge part of often I'm asked, you know, what's the core to leadership and it to me it's relationships. So to me, um, and I say this to a lot of early career principals, yeah, be out and be seen, be out there talking to talking to parents, just not you know, mm not you know sort of false way, but just you know at at morning lineup or at the at the the drop off and pick up in the morning and the afternoons. Just be available because then people see that you're there's there's it's there's a sense of trust is built just in presence. Um and I think that's really important that p parents can see you at you that you're there and that you're present and that you're available and you're talking to the kids, you know, how is your weekend as they're getting out of the car, and you know, you know, how your swimming lessons go well as they're getting in the car, that that you're available to the parents. I think that that builds trust. Um I think another big factor is um in leadership trust with parents is communication. Um it's I think it's really important that your communication is it's fine, that fine line between enough and too much. Um you know, you know, they don't need to know everything, they don't have time to read lots of things. So it's ha it's how you communicate and what you communicate is really important. Um and I think social media's been great, that if you snippets then you can send information to certain families and certain year levels rather than than everybody. Um so I think communication is really important. Um I think too I think knowing your stuff, like being being like if you if you're presenting to parents at an information night or an open day, that you that you that you know what you're doing, that you come across very professional, that you know you you you talk teacher language but i in in a way that parents can understand it. And I think that's sort of once again parents go, okay, yeah, m my kids are m my kids are safe with okay, you know, they're they're in a they're in they're in a good spot here with with this with this uh in this school, you know, there's policies and procedures for things that's safe, my children are coming home happy, all those things sort of lead to developing that trust. Um without it, it's yeah, it's an uphill battle.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

So how do you handle a situation where there's strong disagreement from the community and particularly the parent body with something that the school is initiating?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Look, yeah, in fact I'm I'm dealing with a similar issue at the moment with supporting a school. Um so decisions have been made and sometimes it's it has to be made for reasons that the parents may not necessarily understand. Um so it once again it's very, very clear clear communication um as to the why. Um the why this is that this has happened. You you know you may not necessarily agree, but this is this is the why, this is the s this is the solution, this is how long it's for, um, this will be the outcome, the desired outcome is going to be this. Um in this instance it's it's about um buildings and sort of um combine classes into spaces so so a building can be finished, that sort of thing. So it's just sometimes it's just making them aware that this is this is the why. Yes, it's some sort of short-term pain, but the long-term goal is that we'll have these brand new open spaces, whatever, whatever. So um it yeah, it comes down to communication and that relationship you've got with them and and and the trust. But then at the end of the day, sometimes this is just this is the way it is. I'm I'm really sorry, but you know, we've got you know we've got limited space, we can't bring portables in to make extra classrooms for the six months. It's all these sort of factors. I think it's just being really honest and open with with um with families as best as best you can.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Mm. Now you've been working in schools for some years now and you are working closely with other principals as you've said, and rightly so with your expertise in leadership. I back it in there would be some areas that principals themselves have stopped asking questions of themselves because they've been in the role so long. In other words, uh curiosity isn't quite where it could be. Uh the level of complacency, if you will, in some areas. Where do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Um good question. Um I think it's a really good question, actually. So I think everything is to grow in that that sort of sense of curiosity. I think sh i it depends on on the on does depend on the on the sector and on where they're going to at the moment. But I know a lot of principals get their inspiration there, I suppose that that that sense of why they're in this job by visiting the kids, like going into the classrooms. Um I know a lot of principals are reading um quite avidly now because there's so much you know available, short, sharp and shiny blogs and things on on websites and in articles. So I think that's where they're finding a lot of their in their in their inspiration and their curiosity. Um but it once again it's after hours because I just don't get a chance during hours. Um so I think I think that's having a lot of um I think I think sharing your understanding or having those professional conversations with colleagues in those networking situations, I know that brings great um curiosity to to to principals. Oh, I didn't realise that. Oh that's a good idea, I might go and try that in my school. So those sorts of things. So it's I think it's allowing yourself time to be curious and and and and keep that sense of growing. You know, we're we're talking about being lifelong learners, but sometimes I think leaders forget that they are and they've got to actually keep it's not gonna be handed to you on a plate. Yes, things are offered. Here's a PD session we need you to go to, but I still think you've got to have your own interests and your own um you know, passions and and and follow them. And so I do a lot of m a lot of my job is goal setting with principles. Okay, so what what's your what what's your goal? What do you want to what what what does energise you? Well let's look at at ways of developing that. Um and I think it's really important for the to keep that that spark in principles.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Hmm. It's a balancing act, isn't it? Because compliance is an issue when there's demands made of of as you said earlier, government departments or the sector you're in. And then there's the whole, well you've got to do this PD. So off they go and do the PD. And that's more or less acceptable because it's a requirement and then it then it becomes part and parcel of the role. So it is a juggle and it makes sense that you talk about leadership fatigue. And I back it in, just one last question before we wrap up, if I could, Brad. And this is uh uh a bit of a curly one for you, but uh there are truths that we know but we actually don't say out loud. So what is one truth about the sector that you keep to yourself that you you know if you're courageous enough you'd share it?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Um I think a lot more principals and leaders are struggling and scared to show vulnerability because they'll be judged. Um and I think I think the aim of the book was really to try and give some language around around it so people could sort of, you know, w express it without feeling like they're gonna they're gonna be judged. So um yeah, burnout's not necessarily personal. I think burnout is actually also a system thing. So it opens a door for conversation, but I would say definitely yeah, I I think people are there's still there's still a a stigma stigma, if you like, about burning out and and showing vulnerability and I think that's um something that we need to be need to articul articulate more and that whole sense of being heroic leadership and it really that needs to stop because it's not sustainable. That would be my my thing, probably vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Good one, and that really does come back to trust, it comes back to, as you said earlier, on communication and also relationships right across the board. Absolutely. Yep. For sure. So once again, uh again I know I've congratulated you in the past, but congratulations on your two books and also the work that you do do. It's not easy having a role that you are then imparting your your wisdom and knowledge on to others because it's an added workload and somehow you manage to fit it in. I don't know how you do.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Well, I you know, it's something that like I said, it's about having a passion, and this is my passion, and I really appreciate you know shows like yours putting that the spotlight on on so many areas of education, so many areas of the community. I think it's it's really valuable. So, yeah, no, thank you as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Pleasure. Good to have you, Brad, and uh look forward to having you back. Have a great day and God bless. Thank you, babe. That was Brad Gaynor, the principal in New South Wales, who is also an author for the book Burnout to Break Through the Leadership Reset. And as you've just heard, there are challenges in education. That sometimes we're aware of, and other times there is there are hidden pains that go on with the role, but importantly, as Brad pointed out, we're really talking about communication, we're talking about trust, and more importantly, ensuring that there are compliance measures in place that are fair and reasonable and don't overwhelm so that the actual role of teaching is compromised. So interesting conversation, and I've got no doubt that there'll be some curious thoughts taking place as a result of that conversation this morning.