#14 Carmen McDougall on Why Leaders Say "I'm Fine": Burnout, Boundaries & Better Leadership

What happens when the person everyone relies on is the one who's struggling?

In this thought-provoking episode, Jayne is joined by mindset and leadership coach Carmen McDougall, who shares her own experience of corporate burnout and how it transformed both her career and her understanding of emotional wellbeing.

Together they explore why so many leaders feel they have to carry everything alone, the hidden impact of people-pleasing, and why asking for help is often seen as a weakness when it should be recognised as a strength.

Carmen explains how stress, anxiety and overwhelm can affect decision-making at every level of an organisation, and why emotionally intelligent leadership starts with looking after yourself first. They also discuss the importance of prevention rather than simply responding when someone reaches crisis point, and why workplaces need to become better at recognising the early signs that someone isn't coping.

If you've ever found yourself saying "I'm fine" when you're anything but, or you've struggled to balance the pressures of work, family and expectations, this conversation offers practical insights, reassurance and hope.

Connect with Carmen and find out more: www.happysoulcoaching.co.uk 

EF training exists because nobody should have to pour from an empty cup. Founded by Jayne Ellis who learnt the hard way so you don't have too.

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If you or someone you know would like to join the conversation and be a guest on our podcast, please get in touch. 

Connect with us at info@eftraining.co.uk

Visit us at http://eftraining.co.uk for more information about Jayne Ellis and learn about our Compassion Fatigue and Emotional Resilience Training for Organisations and Individuals.

Please note: This podcast is intended for education and supportive purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health support. If you are struggling, please reach out to a qualified professional or contact your GP. 

The views and options expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, values or position of EF training Ltd. Guest content is shared in the spirit of open conversation, learning and intended as a safe space for honest dialogue. 

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the I'm Fine podcast. I'm your host, Jayne Ellis. And one of the things that we talk about a lot with with the podcast is looking after ourselves, as so the idea behind the I'm Fine podcast is that we talk to interesting and inspiring people about the things that they do and then how they look after themselves. And my guest this week is the lovely Carmen McDougall, who was introduced to me through Kate, one of my trainers, who has also done one of the podcasts. If you haven't heard that one, it's very good. Make sure you go back and listen to it. So I will let her introduce herself and tell us a little bit more about what it is that you do thank you very much, Jayne, and thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. Okay, what do I do? I run two businesses actually. The main one is called The Mindset Edge, and that's specifically based on my years of experience in the corporate industry, especially working with very senior leaders and C-suite, and it's very much focusing on the mindset, so it does what it says on the tin. I find, and have found from my experience, that quite often when you're at that senior level, you haven't always got the person that you can liaise with in a confidential way. The mindset is the foundation for where people make decisions and for their performance, and where that sometimes fails people, sometimes due to anxiety, stress, and overwhelm, they find it very difficult to make those important decisions. And the buck stops at them. So what I do is I work with senior leaders and C-suite to help them with their mindset to improve their performance as a leader, and that often filters through then to their teams as well. So I cover things like the art of influential communication performance as a team, but also in terms of how they work with the customer experience side. I use a lot of intuition, and I've been known as what's called the trusted advisor. The other business I have is something called Happy Soul Coaching, where I work with the individual. So in exactly the same way, someone may be stuck in their life, they have anxiety, overwhelm, they're going round in ever-decreasing circles and they're not fine, but they can't see a way out, and it causes further problems which actually impacts all areas of their life. So that's what I do. And how have you got to the point that you're doing this? So you said you obviously you had a career before you started your consultancy work. So- Yes what were you doing before? So I started off in the legal and investment banking industry, two of one of the most stressful environments that I've experienced, and I actually ended up with corporate burnout. I was working with very senior people. I was doing the classic people-pleasing, working till one o'clock in the morning quite often, and then traveling back home out of London, so always worked in the city. And it was from that time, I think it was a blessing actually, that when I had the corporate burnout, I went to the doctor and she wanted to prescribe me with antidepressants, and I said, "Nope, I'm going to sort myself out." And that's when I discovered coaching. So I trained as a coach, qualified in 2002, and during that journey I was presenting a lot. The Times newspaper used to run a conference twice a year with workshops for the PA industry- So I was running five workshops a day presenting over three days, and the PAs would say, "I really need you to speak to my boss." So it could've been the CEO, leader, because what you do is relevant to them. So the first event I did was actually to the National Firemen's Association. There were 600 leaders, and it was leadership through change. And I realized that actually there was something there about the way they had the organizational culture, the change, the values, behaviors, how they would lead, but the commonality was the stress and how that impacted performance and how they managed people. Now back in 2010, unfortunately my then husband had a brain tumor diagnosis. We had our two daughters aged eight and 10. I was running a thriving business, and I was just about to give birth to a third child. So unfortunately I did have to make the decision to sell the business which was the right decision. I wasn't fine for a long time, and I had to go through my own process, but then I went back into the corporate industry. And then I worked at a few well-known companies working again with very senior leaders with a whole organizational change and really everything I do with the mindset edge. And it was a great learning curve for me. I had a lot of opportunities to work very closely with very senior people, and then I got made redundant into 2023, so I decided to relaunch the business again and do what I'm doing now. I know this is quite a difficult question, but is there something that a lot of the leaders that lead well have in common? They use their intuition a lot. Yeah. And even in their decision-making, I always asked the leaders, "How do you make decisions?" Intuition was the first one. But the people who would lead well were very compassionate people, and really took time to understand each individual, and not assuming that they all know what they're doing. It's taking the time to set them up to succeed, and I think when your people feel that they're being cared for, they're listened to, they're communicated as an individual, and it's not all about the profit, it's about the person, then of course they want to do well. The other thing is sharing their vision, why they're doing what they're doing. What are some of the challenges that are likely to come up? But also not staying in their ivory tower. That constant communication was really important. Yeah. So when a leader sits down in front of you and they are sharing their stress and their anxiety are there common themes that come up that they find that they're having to deal with? Yeah. They quite often feel they've got to do it all themselves. Okay that they know what they're doing. Sometimes it's because, I have to admit, in some cases they've realized they haven't recruited well. They recruited very quickly because someone left and they needed to get someone in, and they realize they haven't done that well. But also, they have problems making decisions, and they're worried that if they make the wrong decision it's going to impact not just the profits of the company, maybe if they're reporting to the board, but also for their people. And yes, they have this huge pressure that if they don't make that right choice, it's the impact, so they're under a lot of stress. But also it's the volume of work, so they're not always very good at delegating and trusting their team to get on with what the tasks are. So yeah, so that's a very common factor actually. And come on, I have to ask you, what's the difference between men and women when they sit down in front of you? Oh, do you know, it's very interesting, but I mostly have coached men than women, which is interesting. The women I have coached, they have a very different mindset. They bring on board actually a lot of their home life into the workplace as well, in terms of they're trying to balance a lot, and they feel they've got a lot of responsibilities, that they've got, let's say, a young family maybe. And sometimes even where they've got elderly parents and they're managing that as well as the responsibilities at work. They've got very much the nurture nature feel. So that's been really interesting. The men have been very different in that respect, just more pragmatic, and their focus is very much on work and everything else is put by the wayside actually. It's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. So obviously you experienced some corporate burnout yourself when you were working in London. If you were gonna rewind the clock and go back to straight out of university Carmen, Do you think there was anything that you could have done differently that could potentially have avoided that for you in any way at all? People pleasing, definitely. I thought I had to work longer hours, be the highest performer in the team, say yes to everything, because if not, I was worried that they would get rid of me. I don't even know why I thought that. And I think as well, I was under a lot of pressure because the environment was very pressurized. It was literally on this hamster wheel constantly. And Do you know, in a way, there was a big learning lesson there, was how to manage and compartmentalise lots of different things at the same time. So I became amazing at multitasking in my head. Now, the physical multitasking I don't think really works. I don't think that's effective, personally. I think if I went back to that Carmen then, I would say stop people pleasing, because everyone would always say, "You're amazing." I'm very strategic in my mindset. I come from a family where everyone ran their own business, so I was actually the first person to be employed. So I've got a very strategic mindset, and I can see things and piece things together and connect them very well. But I put pressure on myself to over-perform, and actually when I had the burnout and I went home, my head of department called me and said, "Carmen, how come you've never asked for help?" And so the lesson there was not just the people pleasing to stop, but to ask for help, because I thought asking for help was a sign of weakness. I should be able to do it all myself. So my self-worth and self-esteem was low because of all of that. If somebody's listening to this and they go, "Ooh, I'm a people pleaser-" What would you say to them? Is there something that you say to people when you coach them that can help them start to unravel that behavior- and start to come out the other side a little bit? Is there something that you can put around yourself? I often find, and it certainly was the case in my situation, that it comes from something in the past that has happened. So with me I didn't get the love and attention from my father. He was very much hardly ever there. And when he was there, he'd be comparing me to the children of other families, saying they've achieved X, Y, Z. Now, the strange thing was the rest of my family would always say how brilliant I was, but I needed to get that validation from my father. And so that was carried with me for a long time. Of course, when I studied coaching and neuro-linguistic programming, that was all dealt with, but I hadn't studied it by this point. So in a very unconscious way, that's what I was dealing with, and I didn't know it at the time. And quite often the people I'm coaching, we delve backwards and we find that pinpoint time that the same, there's something relevant to them. Yeah. And so I work with their subconscious mind to remove that and help... Actually, what I do is help them go back to that past self to reevaluate and to send a new message to that part of their experience. Interesting. So you work with people as individuals, and, you work with people, in the corporate world and you work with with managers. Yeah. Is there something that you look at now and you think, "Those were my symptoms early on that I was starting to burn out, but I didn't do anything about them"? I just wonder whether when you're talking to people, you can hear it in them and you recognize, "Oh yeah that's, that was something that happened to me as well." A lot of what they say is confidentially to me, "I'm not coping." But they're afraid to communicate that externally because- partly peer pressure. Interestingly, very much in a sales type of environment as well. And where you've got very big characters, there'll always be, that person that puts their head above the pulpit and, is performing well. They have imposter syndrome. So all these things, the people pleasing, "I'm not coping." Sometimes even physically you can see their hands are shaking. Their body's not relaxed. And a lot of the things that they're saying to me is exactly what I was saying to myself or people that I could trust in the workplace, is, "I'm not coping." So ultimately it's helping them to become brave enough to speak up, but knowing exactly what to say. People have this fear, "If I say the wrong thing, they're going to exit me out the business." And that comes up a lot. And they have a fear for their jobs, 'cause at the end of the day, people have responsibilities, so they don't want to upset the apple cart. So what I help them to do, and a lot of it is based on my experience and my training, is how to phrase, "I need help. I'm not okay. I'm not fine." And to verbalize what's going on for them. But the one lesson that I did learn from... He was the head of my department before I left, and he said, "Never come to me just with a problem. Come to me with a solution and we can discuss it." Because he explained he doesn't have or he didn't have all the answers. So sometimes we have to just take a step back, and I do help people with breathing techniques and to get to a place of calm, because you can't feel anxious and calm at the same time. So we work on that first, and then we- Yeah look at the phrases, the language of how to verbalize what they're going through, but also to look at creating their own solutions. And that's really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. And when we talk about this on the training, because we've got a slide actually that has got on it things that people have had said to them when they've gone for help. "If you don't like the job, go and work in Tesco's. You knew what the job was like when you took it." And when you're considering that sometimes, the person standing in front of you is somebody that is absorbing such a lot of trauma from other people, and it is quite useful sometimes to put yourself in the shoes of the person that you're talking to," because- Yeah if you ring them up and tell them you've broken your leg, they've got a protocol for that, haven't they? You're gonna be off- Of course for six weeks in a cast. They might have to make some adjustments to your workplace. Then have a bit of physio, then you'll come back. But if you go to them and say, "I'm emotionally broken-" A lot of managers have never had any training in emotional health and safety, have they? Yeah, I was just thinking of that as you were saying that, Jayne, and that's the thing. What's interesting is I've experienced lots of leadership training in my past, or I've even facilitated some on behalf of the company, and I often thought to myself, "Where is the human side to this?" There isn't any. And when someone has, they're on the verge of a breakdown and they just can't cope People aren't given the tools. Now, a manager doesn't have to necessarily have all of the tools, but someone within the business should have that at least before they direct them. Now, I know we have things like mental health first aid, but even then, that can only cover to a certain point. They're normally going to refer you on to somebody. And the dangerous part is, and I'll say dangerous and I don't say that lightly, is that there can often be a big waiting list. So in between that time of going to maybe your manager who doesn't know maybe not their fault, they don't have the right tools to manage that process or know what to say, and the first thing they're gonna say if you don't like it, we'll exit you out." So that's a knee-jerk reaction. Then they go to HR maybe, or the first aiders, but even then there's a waiting period, and during that waiting period they're still expected to perform and carry out the role, or their doctor might sign them off sick, and they're going through all sorts of things in their head, and they're worried about going back to work, the anxiety, what are people gonna say? Maybe I shouldn't be doing this role. And that's absolutely not the case. They just need to take a step back and recalibrate and be able to breathe. And even quite often people will perform well, and they're given a promotion, and with that promotion, they're given people to manage, but they're not often taught how to manage. So you could be absolutely amazing in your role, it doesn't mean you know how to manage people. And even with the right tools, you might not be a natural manager. And so again, you're setting up that manager to fail in leading people, and that has a knock-on effect on the people you're leading, who could be excellent at their role, but they wish to leave because they don't feel they're getting anywhere with that manager. So it's literally a vicious cycle in all of this. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And and I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again until, until I die we've lost that impetus to do a proactive approach towards this. A lot of the time with, like with physical first aiders, you always want to make sure that you never use them. Yes. I taught first aid for years. And I always used to say to them, I hope I see you in three years' time and you've never used any of the stuff that I've taught you." And yet somehow mental health first aid has been like, "We've got mental health first aid." Great, we spend a lot of time teaching people how not to hurt themselves so that they don't need first aid. And then suddenly- Exactly with mental health- Yeah it's got turned round the other way. So we're going, "Oh, it's okay. We've got a counseling service. We've got mental health first aiders." But what are you doing to try and stop them getting to that point? Exactly. It's the whole prevention, isn't it? And I think- yeah again, if the manager or the senior team, or even peers as well, it doesn't have to be all on the managers. It could be- Yeah literally your colleagues. It's being able to recognize signs. And actually, there's one of my managers who I, had a great working relationship with, he spotted those signs, and he said to me, "Carmen, I need you to go home, go to the doctor." And I literally burst out into tears. And I thought it was such a relief for someone to actually recognize I wasn't okay. And I wish other people had, but he did. So he saved me in a way because I don't know- Yeah what would've happened if I'd continued. Had you not recognized those signs in yourself? Yeah. I know exactly when I'm starting to get overwhelmed. I've not been formally diagnosed with ADHD. I think I am. I show a lot of the signs. And and actually very recent, the brain, the ADHD, and the overwhelm. I've written a little guide about that, and actually some of my clients have been going through it, and so the techniques have really helped them. So I recognize the signs. When I'm starting to get overwhelmed, I stop what I'm doing, and I take a step back. Of course, I run my own business, and I choose what I do. I will obviously have deadlines that I'm meeting for clients as well, but if I don't perform well, if I'm in a state of overwhelm anxiety, I'm not in the best place to serve my clients. So I'm lucky I've got those tools to be able to do that, and the environment because I have complete flexibility. So what I do is I give this guide to clients so that when they recognize I'm starting to feel overwhelmed, they go through some of these techniques which can happen instantly. Breathing techniques even splashing cold water on your face, on the bridge of your nose, even on your wrist. There's seven techniques that have an instant impact. There's a lot of guilt though still, isn't there? Of being- Yes signed off sick with anything that's not a physical health problem. Absolutely. And, I'm sure that you have to deal with people who are in that space. Yeah, absolutely. Very recently there's one lady who I was coaching. She's been in a terrible state. A lot of it is the way she's being managed at work, people not listening to her, and suddenly people are noticing how stressed she is and the anxiety. So they're changing their behavior towards her, and she feels they're all coming at her. And she feels guilty at the thought of taking time off sick because she says they're gonna exit me out the business." Now, that unfortunately, very sadly, is a common thing that comes across, and people will exit somebody out the business because they feel they can't cope. Now, that's a very controversial thing to say, I know, but I've seen that happen a lot, and my mission is to stop that 'cause actually that's unnecessary. It doesn't have to happen. But of course- One of the things that we looked at was what she can say when she's having her performance review as well. And also, like I said previously, is to come up with some solutions. You know how your brain works. You know how you work. You know when you're starting to feel overwhelmed. What is that? Because then you can say, "I've got a suggestion. Can I discuss that with you?" The managers are often, they've said this to me, so relieved when they don't have to come up with a solution that, their member of staff does. And it's a breath of fresh air. So it's having those open conversations, it does mean being brave. Being brave to just have those... It's the what if because scenario that I share with people. They're saying what if they want to get rid of me? What if they don't listen to me? What if..." And it goes on and on. But what if it goes right? What if it opens up a really positive conversation because you've got a solution and you know yourself, you know your manager, and you both want a positive outcome? Yeah. That's great advice because, in the training we talk about boundaries. Especially with NHS staff. Yeah. And we say, you can say no," but the problem is that if you're very committed to your job, if you really care about what you do and you see it as being, more than just a job but a mission in life, you feel very guilty if you say, "No, I don't want to stay on extra. I don't want to come in early. I don't want to take on this extra responsibility." So we give them a few ideas about things that they can say instead, which is, "I can't do that, but I could do this instead," or, "I can't do it today, I'll do it tomorrow." But the thing that makes me very angry is when you get a kind of they almost morally blackmail you by saying things like, "But you're my best member of staff," or, "No one else can do it as well as you." Indeed. Does that resonate with what you've heard as well? Yes, very much and I think the worst thing is, that comes up a lot, is when you've got a member of staff that's off sick, and then suddenly there's extra pressure on the rest of the employees, and nothing really seems to be actioned like bringing somebody in the interim, especially if someone's on long-term sick as well. Yeah, so it's definitely that moral compass, isn't it, that people will play on. And again, I think part of that is because the managers don't know what else to say. And if you haven't got the right tools... a lot of this comes from the mindset your own experience as a manager. You may not have had a great manager in the past. They made you feel that guilt, and that's what you're carrying forward, not because you're doing it intentionally, but that's all you know. It's like being a parent, let's say. You've been brought up by your parents or a guardian in a particular way. So when you have children, you're probably gonna do the same until someone shows you something different and you read that magic- Yeah book with the magic formula of how not to speak with your children, how not to tell them off, et cetera. But until someone teaches you that and shows you a different way, you're not gonna have that aha moment and think- Yeah "So that's why they respond in that way." And- Yeah it's very much about seeking something different if you want a different result Yeah. Yeah, the whole madness thing about doing the same thing and expecting something different. If I gave you an unlimited budget, and you were gonna put together a course for all managers to go through, what would be the key elements of that might help, people have that emotional intelligence and listen to their intuition? Is there something that you would make sure that was part of that course for them to take back to the workplace? Yeah. I think, okay an unlimited budget sounds just joyous, I have to say. The first thing that came to mind actually, Jayne, was to focus on them first, and not- Yeah their people, because if you step into their shoes, they've got... and I've done this myself. I- I've had teams of about seven, eight people, and then larger, for who reporting to them as well. So I remember I'd have myself to manage, I'd have my work and the expectations placed on me to perform and achieve targets. Then I've got the same for each of my members of staff. You have updates to do with them, their emotional side their work performance, and then collectively of it as a team to then make sure everyone's performing. And then you have to report to the board or the senior directors on everything. So you've got to think, as a manager, as a leader, there's a lot of responsibility placed on that person's shoulders. And on top of that, whatever's going on for their personal life as well, they've got that to carry too. So the very first place I always start is them as the person. How to navigate all of that, their mindset, their beliefs, their behaviors, how they perform, their overwhelm, their anxiety. Because when you come from a very strong foundation, and not coming from a place of chaos in your mind, but calm, the way you lead and manage with the right tools is so much more powerful, and you become very empowered yourself. That's a really good answer. You need to put that course together and roll it out- I do. to everybody. I will. I will do that- That's excellent certainly. So let's come back to you for a minute. Yes. Obviously, we called the podcast The Truth Behind the Smile because, you came across as a very happy, smiley person, and I'm sure that the more stressed you were, especially when you were in that corporate environment, if somebody came over to you and asked you how you felt, you would probably have said, "I'm fine," or something along those lines. I did. Do you know why you would've said that? Because it was a sign of weakness, I thought back then, that if I said I'm not okay and I'm not fine, it's you should be." But also, I had this thing about if I started talking about it, whatever I'm not fine about, I'd get emotional, and I felt embarrassed- about that actually. But then I thought, are they just saying, "Are you okay?" because that's what people say. Are they really interested in if I'm okay? I never really felt that was the case, and they haven't got time. So the way they would put it across wasn't, "Are you okay?" It's like, "Oh, how are you? Are you okay?" "Yes," 'cause it's a passing thing. It's a passing conversation. But if they say, "Carmen, are you really okay? Talk to me," I would've had a very different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And I can imagine that you now say that to the people who are sitting in front of you, that you don't just do it as a passing conversation, but it's- Yeah a sit down with a cup of tea Definitely Are you okay? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you do to look after you now? With all this experience that you've got what do you do on a daily, weekly basis that refills the emotional energy that you need to be able to do your job and run your businesses? I say to people, "I'm one of the most selfish people that you could know, you could meet," and I mean that in a really positive way. So it's interesting, people have commented, "Oh, you seem so busy." Ah, but how are you making that impression? Obviously I've got visibility for my business. I'm not working 24 hours, seven days a week. When I wake up in the morning, I write in a gratitude journal all the things I'm really grateful for, because when you do... It's not woo-woo. It's by writing things like that down, even saying them out loud, it makes your emotional compass is focused on the good things. So you straightaway wake up and you feel good about yourself. You feel good about what you've got, rather than, "I've got to try and get another client," or, "I've got to try and meet this deadline." It's what I'm grateful for, what really matters. I go to the gym five days a week. I used to do seven, but that was too much. So five days a week I'm in the gym. And I have a really great set of friends that I can call upon. Some I meet regularly, some I talk regularly to. I message two of my best friends in the morning. We do that and we create accountability. I do things, I do meditation. But I generally then make sure I've got quality time with myself, because I have to be my own best friend and that's where, like if I look at the Happy Soul coaching, the whole point of that is be a happy soul. The happiness needs to come from you inside, not what pair of shoes you've bought or, the monetary value, the material things, or the wins. It's about you, and then that elevates your vibe, your vibration, your happiness, your energy. And people do say, "You're always smiling. You've got a lovely energy. You're very positive." That's because I look after me first, and I will say no to people. So my boundaries are definitely there. Yeah. And you get better at that as you get older, don't you? Most definitely. I think partly age. We call it responsible selfishness at the EF training Yeah as Kate's probably told you. I love that. But yeah, no, it's... You do get better at it as you get older because you, yourself- Yeah differently, don't you? You do see yourself differently. When I'm speaking to people that are much younger than myself, I'm 55 now, I'll say to people, "Look, don't wait until you're older and more mature in age to then be brave to have those boundaries and look after yourself. Start from now, 'cause that will have such a positive impact on your mental health as you go forward." I think our children are better at it than we are. Yeah. They do say no. As I look at my late 20s and 30-year-old they're much better at it than we are. Yes. And whether that's because they've watched us do it wrong, or whether that's just- Yeah because that's what we've instilled in them moving forwards, I'm not sure. But they certainly are better than we are about it. We totally agree. We learn from them, don't we? We do. It does work both ways. Yeah. Yeah, very much it's been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much- Thank you very much, Jayne for being a guest. And if anybody's interested in getting in touch with you, we'll make sure that all of your details are available And thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. And carry on doing what you're doing 'cause it's really needed. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jayne.