#15 Jayne Connery on The Truth About Dementia Care: Compassion, Courage & Campaigning for Change

How far would you go to protect someone you love?

In this powerful and deeply moving episode, Jayne is joined by leading advocate, author and Founder of Care Campaign for the Vulnerable, Jayne Connery, whose personal experience of caring for her mother with dementia led her to become one of the UK’s leading voices for greater transparency, safety and dignity in adult social care.

After witnessing failures in her mother’s care, Jayne turned heartbreak into action, founding a national not-for-profit organisation that supports families navigating the care system while championing the rights of vulnerable people, promoting responsible use of technology in care, and working collaboratively with providers and professionals to improve safety, transparency and standards of care across the UK.

Together, Jayne and Jayne discuss the emotional toll of navigating the care system, the importance of rebuilding trust, and why technology, when used ethically and responsibly, can help protect residents, families and care professionals alike.

This conversation is not about criticising care—it is about improving it. It shines a light on the incredible carers who go above and beyond, while exploring how openness, compassion and transparency can help create safer environments for everyone.

If you've ever supported a loved one with dementia, worked in health or social care, or wondered what really happens behind the scenes when families say "I'm fine" while carrying an enormous emotional burden, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

Find out more about Care Campaign For The Vulnerable  https://carecampaignforthevulnerable.com/

Connect with Jayne Connery https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayne-connery-frsa-92376758/ 

Jayne's book - The Long Road Back to Tipperary: A memoir about a mother, a daughter, and the truth of dementia https://amzn.eu/d/0iTGmIMB 

Please note all proceeds from the sale of the book are donated to dementia charity BRACE - Dementia Research and Adopt a Grandparent https://www.alzheimers-brace.org/ 

EF training exists because nobody should have to pour from an empty cup. Founded by Jayne Ellis who learnt the hard way so you don't have too.

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Connect with us at info@eftraining.co.uk

Visit us at http://eftraining.co.uk for more information about Jayne Ellis and learn about our Compassion Fatigue and Emotional Resilience Training for Organisations and Individuals.

Please note: This podcast is intended for education and supportive purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health support. If you are struggling, please reach out to a qualified professional or contact your GP. 

The views and options expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, values or position of EF training Ltd. Guest content is shared in the spirit of open conversation, learning and intended as a safe space for honest dialogue. 

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to this week's I'm Fine podcast. My guest this week is the lovely Jayne Connery who I first met because she was speaking at a care conference that I was also speaking at. And I stood and listened to her, and then I made a beeline to try and catch her before she ran away, which I did. And we started a conversation a few years ago now, and we've stayed in touch, because what she does is really, really, really important. And I am very supportive of everything she's trying to do and, we hopefully will work together a lot more moving forwards. So I will just get Jayne to introduce herself and tell you a little bit about how she has got to the point where she is running the campaign. Hello, Jayne. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. And I didn't run away, I just moved very swiftly because I was into another conference. Okay. But thank you. First of all, let me just introduce myself. My name is Jane Connery and I'm the director and founder of Care Campaign for the Vulnerable. And I set it up really in memory of Mum, my mum, Ellen, and everything is really driven by the experience that I had in care with her. And over a decade later Care Campaign has come so far, even beyond what was really my expectation. So it's just wonderful to be here, Jayne. You're very welcome. I've also just read your book. Ah. And I would recommend it to anybody. I've put a review on for you as well, so that, you can see what I thought of it. But it really is a very honest and moving story about you and your life with your mum and your dad, and then what happened to her as she went into the care system. And I know you describe yourself as just a daughter, but there are many, many just daughters and sons, and husbands and wives, and loved ones who are in exactly the same position that you found yourself in, including me with my dad at the moment. And I'd just like you to explain to anyone who hasn't had the opportunity to read your lovely book yet, what led you to set up the Care Campaign in the way that you did? What was the catalyst that got you moving forwards? Because a lot of people experience this, but not a lot of people then go on to do what you've done. No, and thank you for taking the time to read it. I, I'm not an author, um, I've never proclaimed to be. But it was really my thoughts and you know, I'm hitting the big 6-0 next year. And I felt it was time to sort of put my thoughts of that time down. And really it was more of a family thing. I've got a very close family and they said, you know, "Do it." So once I had their permission it was just onwards and upwards. And I think- What happened to my mum and the kind of person she was didn't happen in isolation. A lot of people said to me, and I write this in the book, "You must have been so close to your mum. You brought her home after years in the sector. Uh, and you brought her home to care for her." But I think it was important to say, yes, of course, we loved each other. We're very, very, very close family, but we had a typical mother-daughter relationship. We, you know, it could sometimes be complex in my teenage years, and I thought it was important to, to write about that. And when I did I sort of found it very emotional because, you know, when you put things on paper it becomes real. Yeah and yeah, so before I knew it, it not only become my mum's story, but the first 10 chapters was about my life, my mum, in the early years. Yeah. And it just then went into Mum's journey. And of course, my father was a very big supporter of CCFTV, 'cause he'd passed away from cancer in 2018, and I had set it up in 2017. So he had started to see what I was doing, and he was so proud. So I thought it was really important he had become part of it as well. Yeah. His voice is there as well, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, very much so. So for those people who don't know what you do- just explain a little bit about what the campaign is. It started as a campaign And now it's a movement. Yeah. Yeah. It's safety in dementia care organization. We're national. It's nonprofit. So we rely on wonderful partners and sponsors, and I'm blessed to have the most amazing organizations supporting us and partnering with Care Campaign for the Vulnerable. So basically my whole ethos is around greater transparency in particularly dementia care. The people, elderly people who don't have a voice, of a generation that they don't complain. Yeah. And I saw it with my own mum, and it was a light bulb moment. And I always use that term in every podcast I've done. It's always a light bulb moment, because it was. Yeah. I was standing in a communal area. My mother had been assaulted, I was told, by my mother, who had dementia. Therefore, she couldn't witness her own abuse because she had dementia. And I asked the question, "If there were cameras in this communal area, we would know what happened," 'cause the assault happened in a communal area. And so for me, it was just a question, where's the CCTV? Where's the cameras? Where, you know, you're dealing with vulnerable people here. Yeah. And also to safeguard the carers, because a lot of people and I deal with it with supporting families as well today people with dementia sometimes regress, they go back. They sometimes say things that haven't happened. So it protects the carers as well. So for me, it was a light bulb moment. But I will say that now that the organization has progressed and learned, and I have evolved in my understanding of the sector, now I push for choice-led. So if a family go to a provider and says, "We're worried about dad, um, he's saying things, we're just a little bit worried," or, "We want to understand what dad's journey in care is like. We wanna see how he reacts sometimes," or, "We just want to ensure that what's in the care plan is being carried out as best as it can be." If a provider says no- Then that is a disappointing response. Yeah. But if we're looking at lasting power of attorneys as well looking at best interest decisions for that person, for that vulnerable person, then we are pushing for legislation to say it's choice led. And best interest decisions has been had, 'cause it has to be responsible. You can't just stick a camera in. And that way we're looking at eradicating the plague of hidden camera. And that's why I do it. 'Cause I placed in a hidden camera in my mum's second care home after she was abused in her first. So my trust had broken down, so I placed in. I'd asked them if I could put in a little IP camera just to sort of see mum at certain times. They said no So I placed in a hidden camera, and then when I went to the home and said, "Care plan is not being adhered to. I'd like this to be looked at." And it was very much wanting to work with them. My mom got evicted. And today I hear that every day, every week. Yeah. I hear the same account from families. And that's not coming down on the care sector. I love the care sector. I have grown to really respect the sector, and I understand it more now than as I did as a family member. But I still think we have to embrace technology, and embrace it- With greater transparency in care. And I work with amazing providers that are absolutely pro greater transparency for them and for their carers. And that's what we try to do at Care Campaign. We bring everybody in. It's not an enforcement. We're not saying, "We're coming down on you if you don't have ca-", no, no. This is about choice. And it's also working with what we see as we need a regulator. We need the CQC to make it clear to providers that if they want to implement this kind of technology with family's consent with provider consent, they should be able to do so without any repercussions. Yeah, that's important. Yeah, that's really important. Yeah. If you were to go back, if you were to rewind 10 years and do it again, is there anything you would've done differently in those early years, do you think in terms of the way that you approached things? Uh, that's a really good question, and I would have to say no, because I didn't have the tools. I didn't understand the care sector then. Yeah. If I'd had all the knowledge I've got now- i'd like to think I would be more effective in my communication. Right. What I think providers and managers, and, when I give a talk I always talk from a family point, not from a director. Because that daughter that you said in the beginning I'm here. I'll never go away. And I think what's really important is back then I didn't have the tools. And- Yeah I can remember, and it's in the book, you know, I write very candidly that, I saw things that weren't right. I saw things that weren't not just right in my mum's care, but weren't right in other vulnerable people that I saw. But it was very rarely about cruelness, or people being cruel, or carers just not... It was about carers being unsupported, overworked, overstretched. I can honestly say with hand on my heart- One or two, uh, bad eggs over, over five years. But the majority of care staff were absolute diamonds. Mm. And it was because of them that I kept my mum in residential care far longer than I should have done because I always thought, if one carer was on duty or a few carers that I knew had real hearts and you know, really cared for my mum I could get on with my day. I could go away and work and do things. But I always found that I was dragged back in when the right care wasn't in place. And I always tried to be fair, and some of those carers still follow me today, on Care Campaign. And it really does touch me because it's not about coming down on carers. It's coming down on those who don't care. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you were listening to this from the outside and you didn't know anything about what you do you might be forgiven for thinking that it was coming down on carers. Yeah. But actually what comes through in the book and what comes through from the times that I've heard you talk is that the care staff want this, too. Yes. I go in and talk to, you know, providers sometimes, thankfully invite me in. And when I give talks about safety monitoring, and, I will use the word, though I don't like it, CCTV because for me that's very, it's quite a brutal thing. It's like camera stuck there and watching you 24/7. But safety monitoring is there to sort of pick up the gold moments as well. The wonderful moments when managers go home, when area directors go home. The carers are there. They're the ones doing the job. They're the ones doing the role. They're holding th- that business together. Mm. And they sometimes go above and beyond, and sometimes that's not caught. Yeah so when I go in and talk to carers, I'm saying I support carers today at Care Campaign, and I see the devastation when they are told that, someone has said that they have been unkind or they've not done what they should have done. And carers come to me and say, "But that's not true. I have, and we need protecting, too. We need that oversight, too." You know, Jayne, for me it's always been a no-brainer. And I feel it even more today than I did 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the sector has changed. It's changing all the time, isn't it? It is. It's really changing. It changed since COVID. Did you see a change in that period of time in, in the way that the people were reacting towards you and what you were doing? Well, it's very much evident in the, The Long Road back to Tipperary, my memoir, because I write about that. And for me, it sort of sounds you know, Care Campaign came alive during the pandemic. It did. Yeah. And I didn't come up for breath in two years. In a year and a half- Mm two years. I worked seven days a week. I got calls at 3:00 o'clock in the morning. I worked. I didn't see my friends. I didn't really see much of my family. I worked nonstop. And we gained a lot of traction, not just from the media, but from providers. Providers started to come to Care Campaign for the Vulnerable. They saw what I was doing. They saw the fact that I wasn't calling out the providers, I was calling out the lack of support from government. I was saying, "This is what I'm seeing when I'm going on FaceTime calls with families to see their loved ones. We are seeing this decline. Who are we blaming? Well, it's not about blame. It's about the fact that this is an unprecedented time, and we need to really get the right guidance, the right support." And we weren't getting it. And I saw how the sector I think I had gained so much respect for the sector during that time. Yeah. And it stuck with me because I saw, and I had managers, CEOs contact me that I had built relationships with, saying, "This is outrageous what we're putting up with." And I saw that side of it, Jayne. Yeah. And it stuck Yeah. Yeah, and I think the sector's forever changed because of it. Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. I think we always had those challenges. It just came to light during COVID, and I think that's the real shame. I get very despondent, I get very disheartened with how the sector is being supported right now. And we have to look at how without social care the NHS would struggle beyond doubt. And I do think it needs far more support, financial as well, but obviously in, in the public's hearts, you know? Yeah. We banged the drum during COVID. I stepped out and clapped in the beginning. And in the end I stopped, and I became very hardened to the fact that they don't want your claps. They want to be supported. And carers were telling us that, "Keep your claps." You know, we know what we're doing. We know-" Yeah we're sleeping on the grounds in camps because we don't wanna go home. We wanna support our vulnerable people." And you know, so much, and I heard all this. I was getting calls every day. My phone didn't stop. And I had carers saying, "I haven't seen my husband or my children because I'm staying at the home." It was a hard time. It was unprecedented, yeah. It was. I was helping to run one of the vaccination centers in Berkshire. And I don't know whether people realize, but when we turned up at the care homes and vaccinated the residents and the staff, we were often met with tears because they knew that it was the beginning of them being able to go back to their families. Yeah. And, and they had been kind of forgotten at that point, I think. It was- Yeah very emotional for us to go in and see them and to hear their stories about what they had sacrificed during that time. Like you say, they, some of them just didn't go home, or some of them went home and slept in their garage or in a caravan so that they didn't have to go back to their families. Yeah. We care campaigned for the vulnerable. You know, we were getting providers come to us saying "We don't have PPE. You know, we're struggling." I'd write to local MPs, care campaign would. We wrote to the senior leaders. Everyone. Um- Yeah and, you know, we worked, and we worked really hard and, I got more traction with CCF TV care campaign for the... You know, we, we got far more traction. We started getting sponsors, partners- Yeah, it, it was a time that shone a light on what was failing the sector in the first place. And you know, I think the sector is still struggling. We can't make any sort of disingenuous tone about that. It's still struggling, and I still see that we are in desperate need of a lot more transparency in care. I think it's come a long way in many ways, and I think it's got far more open view on technology today, than 10 years ago. It was completely frowned upon 10 years ago, and you couldn't mention safety monitoring. And I think now providers are opening up their mindset that, hold on a second, this could be good for our business. This could be good for our staff and for the vulnerable people, of course, that we're looking after. And I am seeing that. I was surprised in the book that you mentioned that you were abroad, and you went and visited a care home, and they already had safety monitoring in their- Communal areas. And share with the listeners who that was because it's not a country, 'cause you're gonna think now that she's going to say America. Yeah, yeah. But it's not. No it, again, it was a moment, and I went with a family member, and she was doing some work with Care Campaign, so voluntary. And she came with me on the abseil 'cause I raise money for BRACE, a wonderful charity, dementia research, I'm a proud ambassador of. And I wanted to sort of do something really, you know, out there. And we got sponsored by a wonderful partner, ERA Group, and they sponsored us to go out. We went to South Africa. And, the abseil got canceled 'cause of high winds, which was terrifying anyway. So me and Gerry, my niece, we decided, well, she decided as well, let's go out. Let's wear our BRACE. Let's just take it out there. But before we did that, we decided to see if we could visit a care home in South Africa, 'cause I thought that would be really nice to visit a care home. And I wasn't quite sure what would greet us, but we found a wonderful home called Nazareth House. And we were absolutely arms wide open which was quite a shock We literally just jumped in and just said, "We're here. Can we come round, view your lovely home?" And we just wanted to meet the residents and the dementia floor and... Well, we walked into this place, and it was magical. And I say that because it just looked like some retreat. You could see Table Mountain right opposite. Elderly people were being walked in these fabulous grounds. And that was all very lovely, and me and Gerri, we were like it's lovely, but what about their safety?" You know, we were still sort of thinking- this is all too good, you know? Yeah. And, and I always go in absolutely positive about staff and, it just had that feel. And I always say, trust your gut. Trust your gut- Mm when you go in. I was just like, "This is incredible what you're doing for people with dementia." They were strolling round the grounds and, oh, just amazing. But then we were walking in the communal areas, and Gerri gave me one big nudge. And she went, "Look." And I looked up, and there was these indiscreet cameras and I said to the lovely manager, Megan, I said, "You've got cameras in your communal areas." She said, "It protects the staff and it protects the vulnerable people that live here. They're very vulnerable, Jayne." I was just... Me and Jerry just went- Oh. And then she showed us into some empty rooms, 'cause obviously not where people were sleeping, but there was a couple empty rooms, uh, private rooms. And as I walked in, I looked up and there was a discreet camera, and I said, "Hold on. Hold on. Stop the bus. What's that?" And she said, "Oh, it's with consent. Families can have cameras in if they want to check on their loved one." Well, me and Jerry, we were just absolutely, "What? W- when did this happen?" And she said, "Oh, decade." Oh, no. And I just said, "Do you know Meghan?" Now I, and many other campaigners, but I'll talk about me, have been asking for monitoring in these spaces. And Care Campaign has been working on a choice-led model- Mm-hmm for 10 years. And you just walk around and say it with such, like it's part of life. And that shocked me and Gerri. We left that home and I was tinged with not only hope but incredible sadness- Mm that people in England, families in England are not afforded that, that level of trust. Yeah. Yeah. And I wrote about it in the book because it stuck with me. And it stuck with me as well. I didn't know where you were going with that chapter, and then I was like, you know, we went to a care home and Yeah and I needed a defibrillator because I had a heart attack because they were already doing it, and it was completely normal. There was just nothing in her tone. Yeah. Yeah. That's- it, it, well, it was pretty breathtaking because- Yeah if families wanted to have... And it was very discreet. Very discreet. It was just, yeah, they want to see how their loved ones are doing. Yeah. If they want to check if they're a little bit uneasy, not during personal care. But they had sound. Yeah. And I thought that was incredible. Yeah. And for me, that's the model I'd like to see in every British- Yes care home. How far do you think you are from that now? Nowhere near. Nowhere near. I wanna be honest. I don't sit here saying that Care Campaign for the Vulnerable has changed the whole sector. No, we still come up against resistance. We still come up against cost. We still come up against transparency, dignity, privacy. All important things. But I think we have providers that understand it, and we have providers that don't want to. Yeah. And that's the crux of it. Mm. And what I do again, CCFTV has evolved. So if providers come to us, we will talk to them about monitoring, about safety, about what families want, 'cause I support families every day and carers, so that's the core of what Care Campaign does. Yeah. So I don't sit there saying, "We need this because of that's happening," without knowing. I support these families in best interest meeting, crisis meetings, I go into coroner courts, I go into Crown Courts. I see- what goes wrong when there is little oversight in the care of vulnerable people, and I see the devastation it brings carers. So for me, I will always do what I do, and I will always try and promote best practice and to work to change mindsets. Yeah. And that's all I can do. Yeah. But in the meantime, my priority will always be supporting families in care If you were gonna set up let's say within the care home sector. If you were gonna set up the perfect care home, 'cause I've given you an unlimited budget now. Oh, nice. You've got an unlimited budget, blue sky thinking. What would that look like in terms of safety for the staff and the residents at that home? I think you've got two issues here. That there's an issue where technology now, we're 2026, technology, AI, you have so many sensors, acoustics. I'm all for it. I love the fact that technology when used responsibly, that doesn't overtake a natural person. Mm-hmm. 'Cause you can never replace a human touch. You can never replace having the right carers on the right amount. But I think that oversight, and that's how I look at it, it's supporting the care staff. It's supporting the provider to know what elderly people that are vulnerable, how they're coping. So for me, that's a no-brainer. And I'm very pro. So I get a lot of companies come to Care Campaign for the Vulnerable, knowing that we're technology, knowing that we're safety monitoring promoting. And they say, "Oh, we've got this great acoustic. We've got this amazing AI." And I listen, and I have those meetings, and I think it is the way forward when used responsibly, and I will say that. But I think a perfect care home for me is a care home that gets things wrong A perfect care home to me is a care home management team that will say, "Sorry, we've got that wrong, and we'll do everything we can to put that right." Mm-hmm. "And we will show you." That's another perfect care home to me. But when I go into care homes, and it's rare, but I go in, and I will get a member of staff, management team say, "We have no risk. We're compliant led. No safeguardings. We work. We do this. We do that." Doesn't happen. So when I go into another care home, and it could be requires improvement, doesn't have to be outstanding, I see the best of care. We get things wrong, but we do what we can, and this is what we do. Yeah. I speak to family members on the quiet. "What do you think of this home?" Quickly. They don't see me talking to family members when I see them. And they say, "You know what? They're good, because my dad had a fall last week and they did everything they could, and they put things in place." That's what I wanna hear Yeah. That's a great answer Don't tell me there's a perfect care home. I'll call you a liar Very good. Let's go back to Jayne now. What do you do? So in the training that we run for the social care staff that we look after and teach about compassion fatigue, we talk about the idea of becoming responsibly selfish. So doing something every day, that refills the emotional energy that you need to be able to run the emotional marathon that you run every day doing what you're doing. What is it that you do? What have you do that looks after you? I'd like to do more I think you could say family, I think that comes anyway but I think for me it is about looking after yourself. And I know that in the beginning, the first five years with CCF TV, I didn't know how to stop. Mm. And you know, it could have had a detrimental effect because you're taking on everybody's issues. Yeah. You're taking on their pain. You become a bit of a sponge. Yeah. And you'll know that in your role, Jayne. But I think for me it's about being aware. It's about being self-aware, and it's about understanding when you do need to take time and I want to be fair, families can be demanding. But I do try and manage expectations, and I do say, I'm one person. I will support you, but, I have to manage what you require." Yeah. And I think I've started to do that in the last couple of years. So now instead of taking on 200 families, and I now am quite niche in what I take on. So I will take on complex cases, I will take on NHS funding. I go into many NHS funding, meetings, and complex neglect. Yeah. So people with complex dementia. So my passion, Jayne and it always has been, is complex dementia. Mm-hmm. When I go and visit a care home, I love visiting care homes, don't get me wrong. I think the majority are superb. Superb, and we've come a long, long, long way. But when I go and visit, I don't wanna stay on the bottom floor. I wanna go up and see what their dementia floor's like. And I always say, "This is lovely, beautiful. Love your drapes. Love your popcorn machine, but I wanna go up where it's important." Yeah. Where people really matter, uh, those with complex dementia. Mm. And that, for me, is something that I see regularly now really improving. Outdoor space. I went and viewed a home, Haddenham Park, and I will say it incredible. I was blown away. Mm. Because I think we're really understanding now, because I can remember when my mum was in her first dementia care home in 20- I think it was 2012. I can remember saying, you know, "Why is my mum stuck behind a fire door?" You know, why can't she have better outdoor space? Why is she on a top floor that's stifling in the summer?" My mum hated mirrors. She used to get very distressed around mirrors, and I can remember going to the manager saying, "You know, wouldn't it be lovely if you could just 'Cause you could take it off. I said, "Take off the mirror in my mum's bathroom 'cause she's getting very distressed." And they used to look at me like I was crazy, and they'd say, "No, Jayne, the mirror, what deme- no, that's not true. Mirrors have no effect." And now I went into a care home a couple of weeks ago, and they don't have mirrors. Yeah. They have mirrors for when the carer needs to look at it. The mirror is not there for people with complex dementia. And I got quite emotional when I saw this at this home because, I knew then, 'cause I knew my mum that, you know, mirrors used to distress her. Yeah. So it's the little things. Yeah. So for me it, it's about understanding that. Yeah. So the title of the podcast is obviously I'm Fine, 'cause that's what we say. Are you tempted ever to say that you're fine when you're not anymore, or are you getting better 'Cause you've just explained really nicely that you've now started to put boundaries in around yourself. Yeah. So do you think that makes it less likely that you're gonna just dismiss it and say you're fine when you're not? I always dismiss it. How did I know you were gonna say that? You know me too well, Jayne. No, I do. I always say I'm fine when I'm not. Yeah, Look I do say sometimes, when someone says, "How are you?" I go, "I'm fine." And I might have had a really bad morning with a family member. I might have had to go through hidden camera footage where I've seen abuse. Yeah. Am I fine? No, I'm not fine But I think you have to build a bit of an armor. Yeah. And I certainly do. I wouldn't say everybody. And I think it's good to talk. I think it is good to talk. Yeah. But sometimes you don't wanna talk to people that might not understand and I, I certainly know that there are times when I've shut my door after I've seen something very distressing. I've turned off my phone, which is never turned off, and I make a cup of tea, and I sit down, and I think, "When will it end?" Because, you know, Jayne, going back, talking about, are you fine? I think in an industry where you can see such greatness, and then you can see many, many things that need changing, and they need changing quickly. When you don't see that happen as quickly as you like- Yeah I think you have to separate your personal life from your private life. In my private life, I'm fine, and I am. But in my working life, I can say I'm fine, but, you know... I think you have to be human. Yes. And it's a human approach Yeah. Yeah. That's a really that's a lovely way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you can sum it up in a yes or a no. I think life's far too complicated for that. Yeah. Well, as long as you carry on looking after yourself, because there are millions of people out there that need you to carry on doing what you're doing, because it is so, so, so important. Everybody needs to read your wonderful book. I will make sure that there is a link in the description especially if you're going through what you went through with a relative in the care sector at the moment. It's really helpful. And if you need to contact Jayne because you need her help and support, or if you want to support her as a sponsor please do get in touch with either me or Jayne and thank you once again for being a guest on the podcast. It's been an absolute delight to talk to you as always. Well, Jane, it's always a pleasure. I'm going to get a little plug in, 'cause it's for charity. The book proceeds are going to BRACE Dementia Research- Awesome and a wonderful charity as well called Adopt a Grandparent. Very well known within the sector, both of them. So the proceeds are going to that. But I just wanna thank you. And, you know, thank you for inviting me on your lovely podcast and for chatting. I love chatting to you because we just end up nattering away But what you do is equally important. Thank you. And I know how passionate and dedicated you are, Jane. I wish there was more people like you in the sector. But, um- Thank you but thank you. Thank you very much. It's been great. Thank you. Take care. Bye-bye. Take care.