EPISODE 22: HATE REVISITED

Welcome back to MORGAN TALKS COMICS.

This week (in the heat!), we are talking about HATE REVISITED by PETER BAGGE, published by my favourite comics publisher, FANTAGRAPHICS BOOKS.

HATE was a cult comic in the 1990s, and FANTAGRAPHICS have been reprinting the original comics in beautiful collected editions, as well as publishing the single issues of HATE REVISITED. It's a dry, sardonic look at middle America, and the lives of middle Americans. 

I was aware of PETER BAGGE'S work at the time, but was reading more mainstream comics. These days, I prefer to read indie and small press comics, and enjoy making them too.

We also talk about my new coaching activities coming up, helping people rediscover their creativity through making comics and cartoons. ENJOY!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Morgan Talks Comics. This week we are looking at Hate Revisited by Peter Bagg, an American cartoonist. With me again, as ever, is Eliza Mariah Chamberlain. Hello.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Hello, I'm only half with you. The weather is so hot here, and we're not used to it in uh the UK. We don't do hot weather as a general rule. So we don't have central, not central heating, we wouldn't need that on.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

We certainly wouldn't need central heating, no.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

We don't have air conditioning, and what you can hear in the background, you might be able to hear the fan going off. But I have to say, I don't think we're super energetic, are we?

SPEAKER_00 0:39

No, definitely a bit lethargic at the moment. It is incredibly hot. I think it's the hottest temperature we've had so far this week has been about 36 degrees. So uh that's centigrade. Um, which might not sound a lot to some countries, but for the UK that's really high. It's the hottest recorded year. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

So that's how it's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

We're staying indoors and we're staying cool, but we're still looking at comics. Um right, so hate revisited. Uh this was published by Fantagraphics, one of my probab I was gonna say one of my probably my favourite published comic book publisher.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

Hmm, it does it's not got an appealing title. If I saw that, I'd think, oh, don't want to watch that. You wouldn't read that, I mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, so bit of background on Peter Bagg. He is an American cartoonist, born in 1957, uh, kind of really started coming to prominence in the early 80s. He worked for a uh a zine, you know, which is uh a sort of a cheaply produced magazine called Punk, which I'm not sure if it still exists, but it had been around for a long time, and it was obviously about the punk scene and music and stuff. Peter Bag he's kind of he's more what I would call an underground cartoonist, and but there's lots lots of stuff about music in the earlier hate series, which was in the 90s, early 90s. Um one of the one of the lead characters who's not in this one was um in a band. Um so there's always been stuff about music, and I think if I'm correct, going by the cover as well, it's set in Seattle. Seattle has a very strong very strong there. We have been to Seattle. Seattle has a really strong music scene, uh, always has done. A lot of a lot of REM came from Seattle. Excuse me for a minute, the cat was turned on. The cat's turned on the the other computer. End of parts work.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Looking mystified, like, what did I do?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Now he's really confused. He's like, what?

SPEAKER_04 2:46

But he was confused when the light went on. He was about this, this dates it that Black Lives Matter because that's about I don't know, several years old.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yeah. So I say this the original hate series ran in like the ran through the 90s, uh was published by Fantagraphics. Um some really nice uh collected editions. Now I was aware of Peter Bag at the time, but I was reading probably more mainstream comics. I found as I've grown older and got really back at back into comics, I'm leaning more towards alternative and small press stuff. Uh and and obviously publishers do that. Fantasgraphics, big fan because they publish peanuts, which is probably my favourite cartoon of all time.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

They publish all newbie in it.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I've got noopy in it.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

One of my daughter's favourite toys was Snoopy, but it was called Noopy at the time, and it's still called New Pie.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, so yeah, Fantigraphics, along with they they publish um, they do publish new comics. As I say, this came out in 2024, uh, but they also they republish a lot of classic American American comics.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Kitty attacking the equipment.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah. Mind you, the kitties are staying out of the way because I think they're suffering from the heat as well. We all are at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Well, actually, they've left us alone nearly all the time, except when we're doing this.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, but so yeah, a bit of backstory. So yeah, uh Peter Bag he started started sort of really working in comics and cartoons in in the early 80s. Worked for a uh zine called Punk, which became sort of recognised, certainly in America, as a big like anti-establishment publication. So it's very much um quite angry comics. This is why I'm gonna be interested to see what Eliza Mariah thinks of this.

SPEAKER_04 4:45

Yeah, I'm not liking it so far.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

So it's it's very it's very black, it's it's very dark humour, and it's looking at sort of middle middle class American youth. You know, so the lead character Buddy, you can see uh is he started off in in a comic called Neat Stuff, which is what Pete Bag did first before he transformed it into hate.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

I'm getting the impression that this creator has got an enormous chip on his shoulder. Um I well yes, yeah. I think he does.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Live.

SPEAKER_04 5:29

Well, he's he the real people he chooses to look like.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yes. And as can as can be seen from the the style of the artwork, he's very influenced by um more like cartoons, so more the the Warner Brothers cartoons like Bugs Bunny and the Texavory stuff. He he cites Texavory as a big influence on his drawing style. He has very what I would call kinetic drawing style.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

It's very energetic, it's got a lot of energy in it, it's got a lot, you know, even though it's static images, it's actually got quite a lot of movement as it indications of movement and energy.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Well, that's very strange that physic physics it stays still and is not moving at the same time. I never encountered that, but somebody will probably tell me that it is worth and I'm all on.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

His artwork has a lot of energy in it, and his writing does as well. Um, yeah, so shall we dive in? Yes, you can tell Eliza Mariah's really looking forward to this one. I thought this one would be the one that would probably test her the most. So um, yeah, this is coming back to characters that that uh that Bag did in the 90s. So you've got Buddy who's black and white not all in black and white.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

Okay, so I've got a good one.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

But originally was published just in black and white. Um, a lot of what we would class as underground comics like Fritz the Cat, Fro Freak Brothers, stuff like that. Cheap. Cheap, yeah. Um, so it would be produced in black and white in the first instance. Right, what's the story? So the story Jack and Norley does they tend to be sort of short episodes within each comic. Um and it's it's it's about it's predominantly about social situations and about social and about social interaction. So we've got a we've got a broad we've got a broad um cast of characters. So Buddy is is is probably Pete Bagg's longest serving character. He's kind of the the middleman in a lot of stuff. He's very he's kind of a bit apathetic about politics and stuff like that, because he they do touch on politics and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

He's that a criticism of in this. What? Because he's kind of apathetic, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

He he'll sort of kind of speak up about stuff occasionally, but he won't really Does he vote? He does vote. If there's trouble, he kind of won't barge in necessarily to sort it out. He'll probably sit quietly in the background and complain about it.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Right, but if he votes, does he sort out all the details before he does it?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Don't know, but there is funnily enough, there is a comic on there is a cartoon on the back page which mentions voting.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Oh right. Yeah. I'm trying really to try and keep an open mind for this. I'm so negatively impacted just by the name of it and by this and by a possible chick on chip on the shoulder that I'm finding it a bit different.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I think I think that's kind of the a bit of the premise of it, you know, is to the the fact that he's chosen hate as a title is to make yeah, but it's kind of ironic using hate as a title. Right. Yeah. But yeah, so we have what does that say? What the title? Yeah. When Buddy Met Lisa.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Oh, if I sat up properly, I'd probably have to read it, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 9:02

You probably would, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Probably bothered.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

So yeah, so these were drawn in tw in 2023 and then published uh a year later in 2024. Uh there were four issues of of Hate Revisited.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Um Is it somebody or town or a place or what is hate?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Hate is just the type the generic title that that Bag chooses to use for his for these comics for these characters.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

So it's just a made-up title that happens to be alien. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Might I guess um it's quite it's a lot of it is set in Seattle and that that area of America.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Right. Well, all I saw in Seattle was a very nice hotel, and I sat and talked to my friend all day.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, I actually went to explore Seattle. Went uh I found some comic shops. I went down onto the um into the bay where the river runs, where the river runs through, and I bit explored the the uh the market that's there.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

I didn't even realise there was a river.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's called the sound, something sound. I can't remember. I should have anyway, but yeah. So we've got a group of people here in an apartment, uh drinking and talking. And they're talking about what are they talking about? They're talking about it the the scene and trying to drive up rents and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 10:25

Oh yeah. Well that that applies to just about everywhere, doesn't it? It pretty much does, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah. So it's this is what we'd call, this is very much what we call a slice of life comic. This is more far more rooted in real life than in just bits going on and nothing happens. Kind of, yeah. So they're they've gone out to us, they've gone out to a show and um sort of show. It's it's I think it's kind of almost like a bit of a talent contest kind of thing, because we've got this we've got a female character here who's um tapping herself like a set of drums, and that's her act.

SPEAKER_04 11:04

Well, that's a bit silly. Yeah, I'd take that.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

Actually, I probably wouldn't, I'd probably be the ideal shame.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, but they're talking about the fact that they didn't pay for the show, and they go, of course not, this show is free. Mm-hmm. And I say they can't demand a refund, and there's another one of the one of the guys in the crowd asking them to shut up because they're ruining everything. And then stuck a bit. I get did get stuck a bit, yeah. And then so there's a uh another another character goes on, comes on stage. She's a girl who was high, was sort of hiding in a corner at the part of the apartment before they all came there, or they all went out to the show, and um she's talking about the fact she's um her actors she's drumming inside her head that they just can't hear it, and then she gets walked out by one of the sort of like the bouncers at the at the venue. So she pulled then. Well, she has because Buddy turns round and says that girl is he's thinking that girl is completely out of her mind. I think I might I think I want to have sex with her. He's a charmer. He is a charmer.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Like you say, he's a bit of a I I've got a word beginning with a D for to describe here. Go on then. No, I'm not saying either. I've been lady sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Anyway, so Buddy goes as this as uh I think this is Lisa from the for the the title of the comic. Uh Buddy, Buddy goes running out after her and starts talking talking to her and and saying that she'd want to walk her walk her home. And she's saying about being um why don't you stalk me home? So follow follow her at a distance because I've never been stalked before. I want to experience it, and Buddy's like, uh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

Well, that just sounds like a fun game, yeah. Well, not if it's real, I I I put this back very quickly to qualify that that if it's real, it's not fun.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

No, but Buddy doesn't do very well, he's like bump, he's like barging into like dumpsters and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 13:15

What I mean like looking into them, not having a look in them.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

No, no, he's like bumping into them and stuff like that. Right. And then the following page we see them back at their apartment, and it's it's quite obvious that they've um they've slept together.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

How's it obvious?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Well, they're both in bed together, and her well Buddy's actually gone to sleep, but Lisa is like wide awake and she's going. They've gone back to her apartment. She says she had to leave through the window now because her roommate just came back. And Buddy's sort of a bit like, what, eh? No, do I have to do that? Well, does he actually like huh? Her buddy falls out of the falls out of the window.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

How many stories up? What floor is he on?

SPEAKER_00 13:59

I think he was at least one story up.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

So just the first floor.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

It's not as if he's tumbled for but the next the next day they're back at they're back at um Buddy and his friend's apartment, and um they're talking about somebody else moving in because they want to obviously split the rent and share the rent. Yeah. And um that's it, is it? Yeah, basically, that's basically it. They're they these little call what I would call a vignette, little short stories, but it's it uses the same group characters.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

What's that artist's name? What's on that did it?

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Oh, Peter Bag, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Yes, Mr. Bag. I'm very sorry, but it's not my bag.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I kind of thought it might not be. I thought this would be a very interesting one to do. You're trying to wind me up, aren't you? Me? No, I'm not trying to wind you up at all. Um, yeah, so this so that short story is like wrapped up, and then if the very last panel is five years later, and she goes, Hey, and it's Buddy and Lisa talking together, and she says, Hey Lisa, do you remember when that night we met? And she said, Not really, I guess I was drunk.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

At least she he's she's forgot that you were just fell asleep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah, so short story, finished, and then the next next story moving into colour is is set in contemporary times, set in 2023.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

This is nice and clear, like this.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

So there's a big like splash panel at the at the at the top of the page. Bag seems to work on sort of a six or seven pay panels to a page sort of thing, so the story flows fairly clearly.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Yes, yeah, yeah, that really is nice, the the thing. Hang on.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

It's uppercase, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Mariah's busted those notice of the capitals.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Mr. Bag. You've got to learn to do the uppercase and lowercase so that people can read it if they've got difficulty reading, and I'm so hot.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Shall I do this on my own?

SPEAKER_04 16:11

You know, I'll I'll I'll mention something now and then.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

So we've got so we've got a colour story here, and it's a it's a buddy's house. I think this is sort of moving on from when they were living in the apartment. That was a while ago. This has now moved into like what would be present time.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

So he's with them.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

So I think he's with Lisa here. They've actually settled down together.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

In a nice house.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Is it supposed to be a nice house?

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I think it's supposed to be a nice house. It's in a quieter, it's in probably in the suburbs of Seattle, so not like living in the city centre, so more like living in the suburbs.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

Well, I would have thought that this particular view from the writer in this would be very negative for there.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah, well, it's it does have kind of a negative energy, but like say with with Buddy being quite an apathetic character, he's he's kind of he wants to in in his heart he kind of wants to stand up to authority and be more of a rebel and stuff like that. But I think basically he's a bit of a wimp, so he kind of doesn't. He just he complains a lot but doesn't actually do a lot.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

Well he's put pen to paper or like emails.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Interestingly, in this story, he's actually working as a writer. I think he's like writing for like a local paper or something.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Oh, he's got a little steam there then, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

I've got more of a voice than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah. But they're talking about going to visit, um going to visit in so they've moved out of Seattle and they're talking about going back to visit one of their one of Lisa's friends in Seattle. This is post-pandemic, the pandemic is mentioned it, is mentioned in it.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Um yeah, I suppose um Black Lives Matter was sort of enough that you ran that time.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

It was around about the same time, wasn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

Let's think it was about five billions ago, but it's not it it's not.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

I mean, it's yeah, it's bizarre to think that it was like six years ago now.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

Yeah, that could my mind won't take that. I couldn't say anything exploding.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, and um so they're going back talking about going back to Seattle to visit this friend Valerie and um uh uh her partner George, who is the the other cat who is the character who we saw moving into the apartment in the previous story.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Right, and Valerie's other flat flat money.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, right. So we've got they arrive in Seattle, go to the apartment, and uh we've got Buddy and George talking together. George is an interesting character because he's a black character, but he's very again, he's quite he's quite he's quite apathetic again. He very much keeps himself to himself and d and does a lot of does a lot of sort of rambling online and stuff like that, but he's not going out shouting for his rights or anything like that.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

No he's laid back, yeah. Maybe just maybe he doesn't think he's such a real deal. Yeah, it could be, yeah. Because not everybody had, yeah, but plenty of had.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, but they're talking they're talking about the Black Lives Matter riots here.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Uh, and they're saying so. George was telling me how he headed for the hills during the Black Lives Matter riots, and then uh Valerie's saying he did not head for the hills. So but basically there was the riots and protests going on, and George basically hid while it was all going on, he didn't go out and protest.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Yeah, but yeah, that's his choice though, isn't it? That is his choice, yeah. You can't complain to somebody because they've chosen, yeah. Because, well, that's that is his Black Lives Matter's choice.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Absolutely, and they're they're talking they're talking about politics and stuff here, and and Valerie's accusing Buddy of of secretly voting for Trump. And that Buddy, Buddy actually does get sort of quite keyed up, he gets actually quite passionate about no way, man, I'm not gonna vote for him, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Which characters uh get ground up?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Buddy is the Buddy is the lead character, he's kind of the you know the yeah, he's the lead character. I was gonna say hero, but he's more of an anti-hero. Yeah, he's the protagonist. He's the protagonist that's the word I want to do. That's the word I want, but he's the protagonist. So yeah, so they're sitting around at the den table, they're drink having a drink, and they're they're talking about um like the area that they live in and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 20:42

Yeah. And is it are they complaining about the area or a balanced account?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

They're talking about how the neighbourhood has changed.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

For the better or the worse.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

For the worse, I think. Instead of it's becoming more gentrified.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

Well that that's for the better.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

It depends, doesn't it, who you are.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

It depends exactly. With the and with these sorry, excuse me, with these characters, um they'll argue about stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, well that's healthy. Yeah. Don't row, just argue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

So dinner is finished, and they're uh Buddy and George are sitting talking around the table, and then they the uh towards the end of the conversation here, they talk about uh Valerie asks Buddy if he's seen a therapist yet. And he's like, Oh no, we're actually doing this again. He says, But a good psychotherapist would do wonders for anyone. And he says, Oh, look at the time, thanks for dinner, bye, and drags Lisa out and they get they they leave.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

Hang on, let me get Valerie is the friend, Valerie is the friend, and he's trying, she's trying to get Buddy to see a psychotherapist or a what counsellor or whatever. Mine.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah. So they drive they drive back to Tacoma, which is where they where they they've moved out to.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

Is that uh part of Seattle?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

I know I'm not I'm not exactly sure. I think it's part of Washington State, which is where uh Seattle is.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

Because I've been there.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

But they're talking they're talking about what what they're going on, talking about the the people that they're all with and stuff like that. And um Buddy's been very negative about that, about the whole evening, saying that you know she's a bit of a phony and pretentious and stuff like that. And Lisa saying no, I like I like that kind of thing. It's all good.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Yeah, yeah. That there is reality in that. You get two friends and the partner's dragged along. Yeah. And they don't like I'm thinking of a particular person that um there was a couple we went out with um long, long time ago, and she was really nice, and he was you don't know who I mean, but never mind. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

No, I think I do actually. I think I do.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

It was a shame because I now I've lost touch with her.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Mind you maybe thinking the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

They lost touch with us.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

No, that I dragged a partner. You can't have been more different, the pair of you. Just because people are friends doesn't mean that their partners are going to get on and if you do, it's really brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah. True. So we we we uh go back to the house in Tacoma. We see it's the next morning, and Buddy and Lisa are sitting around talking with I assume is their son. So they've had a so this is uh quite a bit of time has passed on and they've got old is he? Well he's I would say his late teens, early twenties. Right, another argument. Yeah. Yep. So they're and obviously they're having a kind of a fairly typical grown-up and child and and young person uh uh discussion about his room being the best virtuals. Oh he's talking about it's talking about his co-workers at the construction site. They're still talking about Trump and and asking if um if if the guys that he works with are you know make America make America great stuff people, you know?

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Oh it's a shame because it seems as if he's made the complete opposite, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

It's a good everybody wants to have their country great, don't they? Yeah. But you have to go about it in the right way.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. But I say it's quite a cynical view of like of of of society in here, you know, you grew you've got Buddy as being quite a yeah, he is quite a cynical character.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Generally speaking, I don't talk politics, but when it comes to Trump, well, how can you be anything but cynical? Except people are.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Yeah. I don't know, it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy, given what's going on at the moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

Yeah, it's a shame.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah. It is a shame. We've been watching a lot of lot of stuff about uh what Americans think of Trump and of the way society is going at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

Yes, there's Tyler Rumpel, he's a a reactor reactor. Is that the right word?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

I s and he is a reactor, he's he's he's providing reactions to videos and and like uh just journey things. Forums and stuff like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

Yeah, and um he he's the one that comes up with all these strange things and comments and he seems as mystified as the rest of the world. Yeah. He's um one of the things he comments on is that many Americans haven't left America and don't really engage with what's going on outside. Yeah, but I I don't know, that is his opinion, it's not my opinion, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

And then read reading the the skateboard magazines I do, which is an American magazine, you know, so obviously I would say 99% of the people being interviewed are American, but a lot of them are travelling the at a young age, which is great, you know, that they're actually leaving the country at a young age.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Oh, they're yeah, they are doing the yeah, they are going out and traveling. I suppose there's always been a certain uh um proportion of people do that. We we know because we've seen people.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

You only go to London when you're in London, you always see young Americans and young other country people with their backpacks and whatnot. Yeah, I think they're brave.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

Yeah. Anyway, we've get back to work then.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Get back to work. So here we have Buddy and Valerie going out, going out together, not going out. This is this is flashing, this is going back to 1991. And um Valerie's taking Buddy along to Ikea to choose some furniture.

SPEAKER_04 27:14

I'm laughing.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

And he's he's talking about talking about he said, Well, I've been need to be here much longer.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

And um That's how I feel about IKEA because you can't escape, can you?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

No, you have to go round in a certain direction before you can actually get out. Yeah, you can't just like take a detour and and leave leave the store.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

Yeah, so that's a bit that's I don't like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yeah, but that's all they're they're choosing some furniture for an apartment, and uh Valerie's saying we and Buddy's going, we this is for your place, Val. But he says, You're over a lot these days, so you have to look at it too. And he says, So what it's your money? So they're looking walking around. I think I think because he's over at her apartment quite a lot, so why are they carrying on? No, they're not carrying on, but they're all they're all like in the same friend group, so they're they're sort of hanging out together.

SPEAKER_04 28:10

So as a friend, he's just gone along like you do.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

So they're choosing furniture and then he's having fun and games, fitting furniture into the back of the car, and uh she grabs the keys and says, She'll drive it, it's my parents' car. Oh. And she's basically basically taking it as an ob as an opportunity to uh have a go at Buddy, really. So saying, you know, talking about him uh having um being afraid of commitments, so you know, not not choosing to like make decisions and stuff like that. Say he's been with the same person, he'd have to have a t a teenager.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Yeah, yeah, this is it.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

But but did he just do that because it's the easy thing to do? You know, this is kind of a bit of his character. He seems, like I say, he made he doesn't really like to make a fuss, but he will complain about a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Yes, yeah. That drives me around the bend when people complain and don't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Like I complain about the heat, but you can't tine it down, can you?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

No, you can't.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

It's hot, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

And then what happens is through uh part way through the story with flash, we go we go into the present, so that the strip moves into colour again, and we've got Buddy and Lisa talking up talking about how um talking about the it so it appears that they were in a relationship before, so Val was in a relationship with Buddy before Lee before he was in a relationship with Lisa.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

Oh yes, because they were all together going to that.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah, they're all in the same group of friends, so they they they were sort of hanging out together and stuff, and just talking about the fact that um Buddy's been having a dream and it brought back some some weird memories, and um saying that Val used to hit him.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

That's not good.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah. And uh and Lisa saying, Did you ever hit her back? And he says, Of course not. Um the odd the oddest thing I did was moved in with her. We were getting serious. I almost moved in with her, he says.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

And then was it Lisa comes along and rescues him? Yeah, although really he should rescue himself, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

But he's talking about the fact that if he'd moved in with her, then he'd he would have been like walked all over and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Yes. So he's good that it was an almost, so he's not that lethargic.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

No, so he's thinking he's he's thinking and reflecting on all this stuff, so they they talk about that stuff and then he wanders off into into the night because he's clearly wide awake now, because they were they were asleep, but he's woken up from a dream.

SPEAKER_04 30:43

Oh, was that a dream he's in IKEA?

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yeah, it was a dream that it was in IKEA.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Yeah, which is why it was pitched back in time and then and also drawn in black and white. The colour stuff is the more the colour strips in in these comics are the present time and the black and white stuff is is is in the past.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

You could have told me that at the beginning, or were you waiting to spring it on me?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

Were you waiting to see if I realised?

SPEAKER_00 31:15

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

If it wasn't so hot, I might have done.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah. So then we go back here to Seattle 1990. This is back at um back at Buddy's apartment that he shares with his friend Stinky. Stinky is this really, really loud, obnoxious character. Why is he Why is he what?

SPEAKER_04 31:36

What why is he um with that person? Why isn't he again?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Because he kind of doesn't he feels like he hasn't got a choice. He kind of feels like he has to be with him, kind of thing, and he he he won't he won't stand up for himself. So we've got so we've got George who's the the black character that we saw earlier in the comment, and this is his mother bringing over bringing over George's things, and he's saying, I don't want to disturb him, I'm sure he has much more important things to do.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

Oh who says that?

SPEAKER_00 32:09

His uh George's mother says that.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

Oh, I was saying about George.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

And George has put up a sign saying private keep out on his door, and George is all talking about conspiracy theory types of talking about the Illuminati and all this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

That was all right.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

And uh Buddy's Buddy's trying to get engage him into actually doing stuff, and he's like, go to a park and toss a frisbee around, and George is saying a park, a frisbee. I thought only white people did stuff like that. Buddy says, Oh well, today you're gonna break the frisbee colour barrier.

SPEAKER_04 32:46

Well, that's certainly not true round here, it's not only white people that do good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Absolutely, but they go to the park and they're tossing around frisbee, and George is just absolutely not into it, and he goes back to the apartment. And um, yeah, he's talking to his mother, and he is saying that um talking to George's mother, sorry, and he says, You made an effort, and that's all that matters. He says, Seriously, buddy, you're the best friend George ever had, and Buddy looks completely dumbfounded by this.

SPEAKER_04 33:22

Well, getting him to go out and do something he thinks other people do and he doesn't do. That is good for him. That is good.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Absolutely. And then on the back page, we've got a uh we've got a short strip of Buddy and Lisa talking together, and Buddy's uh Lisa is asking Buddy if he voted him asking Buddy if he voted for Trump, and he says, Give me some credit, woman.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

No, we didn't. No. But uh they were talking they were talking about stuff, they're talking about um so so you voted voted for Biden then, so it's just the time of of the Biden and Trump election.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Yeah, then it ch um that must have been written before the actual election. Yeah, yeah. That I can't remember the woman's name, but she replaced him at the last minute. Oh, Kamala Harris? Was it her name? Kamala Harris?

SPEAKER_00 34:21

She wrote she went up against but in went up against Trump in the latest latest Americans. It was too late, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 34:28

I wonder if she'll be in the next ones.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Who? Kamala. I hope so. She seemed like she really had her stuff together. I quite liked her.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

So did I, but could it have been relative?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Possibly well, yeah. No, she does seem to be like one of the good ones. You know, she does seem to be doing good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Because it is way behind the rest of the world. I mean, absolutely what three, four, five ministers at the women.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

At least three I can think of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So hate revisited, uh, collected uh and came out last year. Yeah, came out last year, the collected edition. I was getting the individual issues because I it's nice sometimes it's been hard for me to get phantographic stuff because I like the way they do stuff. They always make you know, they put it on nice paper and they look after it. Yeah, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

I noticed that as well put it. It's always kind of good.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Yeah, it's always well well presented, yeah, always well presented. Um they do tend towards either classic cartoons, so they they republish a lot of the early Disney comic strips that were done in the in the 30s and 40s. Um Mickey Mass and stuff. Quite a lot of a lot of Donald Doc stuff. Donald Doc was like really big in comics in the in the in like in the in sort of like the 40s and 50s. But it it was just it was another thing they did, but yeah, but they also they're also publishing that there are artists now doing new stories with those characters and they're publishing those as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

I like Vint Stones. That was about oh and and the one that you don't like, which is um um god's name. So Which one? Scooby-doo. Scooby-doo. That's what I was trying to get at. That's what I was trying to get. You you didn't um I'm yeah, not really a Scooby-Doo fan. And uh, you know, it was just fun as a kid to run go around the house going s you know, Snoopy Doo. I haven't been drinking, I promise you.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

It's the heat, honest.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Yes, it's the heat. Should I pin it on that?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, you could do. So uh it's this will be interesting to hear what you think.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

Well, I like the paper, yeah. I like the colour, and I like the fact that it goes if it's in the past, then it's a different colour. Yeah. And I wish they'd do it on television, played it in black and white, because they get so confused. What were we watching? Oh, I know it was the last bits of arrow, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

And it was I couldn't work out who was there and who's everybody else wasn't too confusing.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, they were flashing between the past and the present and the future, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

Oh yes, that was right. Future was funny, didn't there? What would you do for the the future if you had black and white for the past? Oh no, you I tell you what, you can have C Pier for the past and black and white for the future and normal for normal.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:45

Yeah, I've got it sorted out now. But I liked that idea, so I liked that. I like the colours when he has done the colours, but I don't like the title, and I don't really like the the premise, I don't really like it. Um and it loses points, of course, for only having uppercase. And I'm very sorry, Mr.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Bag.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

Mr. Bag, but I can only give you about four.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Oh so yeah, I thought this might be one that you wouldn't get.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

I might get it very well.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

But no, no, I didn't think it would appeal to you as much, you know. No. So I've I've sort of uh I was aware I was aware of hate and um and Peter Bagg's work at the time, but I was reading more what I would call mainstream comics. Uh since I've got back into collection over the last couple of years, I've tended more towards the indie publishers and more underground sort of stuff. Which is what I've slowly been getting into over the over the sort of last 20 years or so, but like especially over the last couple of years, I've been getting more into small press and independent publishers.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Yeah, and you've been doing a lot of that stuff, although you're doing some changes at the moment. Yeah. And um going to do some classes online.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Well, yeah, I will be. I'll be teaching people how to draw cartoons. The a lot of it is the idea of I think a lot of people when they get older they think they they can't if they they can't think because they don't do drawing all the time like you would do when you were at school and stuff like that. People tend to think that they can't do it, and I'm what I'm trying to get through with my classes is the fact that you can. The reason I use cartooning is it's a simpler art form than than you know, sort of like going off and doing a life drawing class, but you could still go off and do a life drawing class and just be really sketchy and and loose.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

You can do proper artwork too, can't you? Yeah, I'd yeah, don't mean that.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

I'd be I'd be known to do I've been known to do proper, he says in inverted commas artwork. I have got some paintings hanging around.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

You're on the walls, believe it or not.

SPEAKER_04 39:54

Yeah, funny enough, and they're very good indeed.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

But I haven't seen you do any artwork for ages.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

No, I've been mean to get back into painting. Uh I've mainly been working with uh brush pen and and using digital colour, but I I want to get back into painting. Um the the stuff that I'm working on, the covers will be painted.

SPEAKER_04 40:13

Yes, I like it when you're painting at your easel with acrylics you use, don't you? Yeah. And you paint like a demon, and magically this wonderful painting comes comes out in in half a day.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah, I do tend to I do tend to work quite quickly when I'm when I'm drawing, yeah. Well painting, painting especially, yeah. I I sometimes I get a bit impatient. It's like with with working with watercolour is fun because obviously you have to wait, leave it time to dry because it is a wet medium. It's water, it's water, but um and I'm I can get in get a bit impatient trying to get stuff done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Does that spoil it?

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Has done on occasion, but I've I've sort of learnt my lesson.

unknown 40:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:00

Dry.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

I've I've I'm a lot better about leaving time in, you know, leaving stuff to dry before I finish it off and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 41:08

Yeah. Things are going, well, it's all being prepared now, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah. We were I'm working on excuse me, I'm working on on the classes. I've I've prepared some um resources already, which are good introductory stuff. Yeah, like my lesson plans, so it's sort of going back to my teaching days, lesson plans and schemes of work.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Yes, I was going to say you are a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah, I am actually a qualified teacher.

SPEAKER_04 41:37

Well, that's in the distant parts, but you won't forget it.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

No, I won't forget it.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

I won't let you.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

No. No. But there you go.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

Right, yes, so bear that in mind if you're interested in uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

If you want to learn how to draw cartoons, I'm I'm opening up uh really good introductory classes, and it again it's very much it's very much uh geared towards people who think they can't draw or think they can't be creative.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

You know, if you want if you're actually interested in it, you could email Morgan. Is your email um address on the you know in the places that you put the podcast and everything?

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Uh not actually.

SPEAKER_04 42:24

Um it's on your website. But it is on my website, and it's more it's quite difficult to remember because it's morgan at morgangleave.co dot uk. Yeah. So it's Morgan at Morgan Gleave in the UK, that's probably enough.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

But uh it would be nice to have somebody for some people further afield. You've got some.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah, absolutely that are you know, that I mean that's that's the nice thing because I'm I'm planning on using Zoom to do online classes. I would I'm I'm planning on having like a group class and also do one-to-one coaching as well. Um the the the great thing is really with with Zoom now, we you can do you can do it wherever. Obviously, we all you have to work around is time differences, and we just haven't work around that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:15

I'm afraid you will have to get up early. I'll get you up early.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Yeah, I'll just have to get up a lot earlier than I usually do.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

And a glass of water will do it.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

No.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

On that bombshell. Uh thanks for listening, watching, and tuning in. Let us know what you think. As ever, uh, are there more underground stuff that we should look we should be looking at? Looking at more underground comics, more alternative comics. Um, yeah, be nice to hear from you. Bye.