#003 Leadership and Communication with Beth High

Welcome to the Six Domains of Leadership Podcast. In this episode, host Sim Sitkin is joined by Beth High, a seasoned leadership coach, facilitator, and the Director of Programs and Products for Delta Leadership, to explore the critical, bilateral bridge between effective organizational leadership and communication.

Drawing directly from the empirical Six Domains of Leadership framework, Sitkin and High challenge the traditional, one-directional "command and control" paradigms often taught in management. Instead, they unpack why leadership is fundamentally an exercise in dialogue, influence, and the co-creation of a "shared pool of relevant information." 

Whether you are a leadership professor, an executive coach, or an organizational scholar, this episode offers deep structural insights into the pedagogical and practical mechanics of modern leadership behavior.

Key Topics Covered in This Episode:
• The Illusion of Communication: Unpacking George Bernard Shaw’s famous baseline concept within modern organizational hierarchies.
• Framework Mechanics: Why Contextual Leadership statistically scores the lowest on the Six Domains Leadership Survey (SDLS), and how failure to communicate intent limits institutional alignment.
• The Action Tier: How Supportive and Inspirational leadership behaviors rely entirely on establishing a relational foundation of trust.
• Clarity vs. Control: Moving away from coercive controls to adaptive, enabling controls—and why effectively exercising control requires giving it up.
• The Authenticity Constraint: Managing cross-cultural and cross-disciplinary boundaries without sacrificing the baseline credibility of Personal Leadership.

About the Speakers:
• Sim Sitkin is a professor and leadership scholar whose decades of research focus on understanding what leaders actually do that makes a structural difference in their organizations, communities, and the world.
• Beth High is a veteran executive facilitator and director who specializes in translating complex behavioral leadership data into actionable team dynamics and organizational clarity.

Learn More & Connect:
To explore specialized 360 leadership assessments, academic certification programs, and executive coaching workshops, visit: http://DeltaLeadership.com

#DukeUniversity #LeadershipPedagogy #SixDomainsOfLeadership #ExecutiveEducation #OrganizationalBehavior #ManagementScholars #DeltaLeadership

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The single biggest issue with communication is the illusion that it's taken place.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

I'd like to have us have a nice conversation today about your perspectives on the link between effective leadership and communication. Influence.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Leadership is about influence. So how do you influence? Well, most of us do influencing by what we choose to say to somebody and what we choose to discuss with people and what kinds of things we want to know about them.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

I'd like to take a look at that and get your insights in terms of the six domains of leadership and the ways that communication relates to each of the six domains.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

It's really interesting. The fact that contextual leadership is statistically the lowest scoring of the six domains when we use our SDLS, our survey. And doesn't that make sense? If you aren't asking questions or if you aren't thinking about what is it they need to know, we often have trouble putting ourselves in their shoes to know what they need to have explained.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Because it could be, as you alluded to. I already know that, so I assume everybody else knows it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

The best decisions are made from the largest shared pool of relevant information. Every single word in there is important. Each leader has to find their way of saying everybody in the pool.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Each side has its own way of communicating, but you still have to be who you are in order to sustain that sense of credibility and trust. Welcome to the Six Domains of Leadership podcast. I'm Sim Sitkin. For decades, my work has focused on understanding what leaders actually do that makes a difference in their organizations, their communities, and the world. In this podcast, we explore leadership not as a title, but as a set of behaviors that shape trust, credibility, and impact. In each episode, I'm joined by leaders, scholars, and practitioners who are rethinking leadership and shaping a better tomorrow today. Thank you for being part of this conversation. In this episode, I will be engaging in conversation with Beth High, a seasoned leadership coach, facilitator, and the director of programs and products for Delta Leadership. Together, we will discuss the bridge between leadership and communication, how empathy, listening, and clarity shape leadership influence, and what communication breakdowns can reveal about leadership effectiveness using the six domains. I'd like to welcome Beth High and an expert on communication and leadership. And I'd like to have us have a nice conversation today about your perspectives on the link between effective leadership and communication. And I'd like to start us off with a question of why is communication important to effective leadership?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah. I think thank you for inviting me, first of all. It's great to be here and to talk to you about this topic because we are we have so much that we share about this. And I think there's a good way for us to help people really see what the connection point is. So I think what I would start with is um to to say that it really is, let's go back to the definition that we use, which is about influence. Leadership is about influence. So how do you influence? Well, most of us do influencing by what we choose to say to somebody and what we choose to discuss with people and what kinds of things we want to know about them. So it is really about that influence piece that I think it makes it so such a clear bridge.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

And what about uh the aspects of communication that are nonverbal, for example, because communication is about what you say, right? But it's about more than just what you say.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Yeah. And it's also about anything you can do to create a space where you're getting to know and understand somebody, that opens that space for influence. And that also includes how you are in that space. So if I walk in and say something to you in this way, as opposed to leaning in a little and saying it this way, it matters.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

So communication is about what I say to you. It's also what communication I receive from you and what both of us do and who we are. So all of these things are aspects of communication. Right. And leadership effectiveness and success is influenced by those. Why? Why is it influenced by those?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah. Well, in leadership, we're trying to create a relationship with somebody. We're trying to have a connection where we can influence them and bring together a joint conversation about something that's meaningful for hopefully for all of us. So as leaders, we're trying to create a space where that kind of exchange can happen, both us saying, here's what I think, I believe it passionately, and asking, are you passionate about this? or what gets in the way? So it's really about creating that space.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

So people often think of communication as one-directional, but it's really a dialogue. Whether it's verbal or physical or through the aspects of the organization structure, even it's a it's a dialogue between a leader and a person, or between a leader and a group of people, and it goes in both directions.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Absolutely. And when you think about all the different opportunities, if you're trying to share an idea or a concept that you're excited about, or you have a group of people that you need in order to accomplish any kind of vision that you have, it starts with having the conversation about what you see and how do they see it. Until you have that, how do they see it, you're not really, you're not really communicating.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

You know, it's just one directional, as you said. So that leads, uh, I'd like to frame my next question for you this way. Um it's also about not only I want to influence you, but what do you need from me? And I'd like to take a look at that and get your insights in terms of the six domains of leadership and the ways that that communication relates to each of the six domains. Can you comment on that? Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Well, I wanna I want to start by saying one of my favorite quotes about communication is the George Bernard Shaw that says the single biggest issue with communication is the illusion that it's taken place. Right? Yeah. And I think if we can remember that as we go through the six domains, it it just reinforces that sense of getting to a deeper understanding of what people need. So, in personal, we want to express our competence. We're trying to help people see what it is that we bring to the table that they may need, that we believe is going to help. And so it relies on you communicating that in a positive way. That can be really hard for some people. It's like, oh, I don't want to talk about what I've done. But remember, communication is about helping those who need information. So, in personal, we have to express who we are and and how we hope to connect in some way and give them faith that we as a leader might have some really good ideas about how to move forward.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

So it's it's both what do you want them to know about you in order to influence them? But it's also thinking about what they need to know about you for their own purposes, not only for your purposes, and to get over the shyness of saying, I don't want to brag about myself or I don't want to reveal my weaknesses, but to actually connect with the person so they have a sense of who you are as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, I remember one time early on, you said something about you have to remember that they're going, why should I follow you? Why should I care about what you have to say? And when you think about the number of times that you've been a new leader has come into your world in organizations where all of a sudden somebody comes in and says, I'm so excited about the new direction we're going in, and starts talking buzzwords, talking at you. And there's no really, there's no deeper understanding of what they need to know about the person.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

So what about, do you want to go on to relational? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think relational, um, first of all, one of the most powerful part of your model, you're an Alan's model in my mind, is the awareness of saying, okay, I want to influence, and this is the effect that I want to have. The effects are so useful in for a leader to figure out how should I communicate. And, you know, relational is in the pyramid in the right place. It's dead center, yes? And trust is the whole foundation. Trust is the effect that you're hopefully going to gain by practicing relational leadership. And trust is okay, I I want to have, I want to influence them and I want to build trust. What is it that I need to say and what is it I need to find out? So it's not just saying, but it's what are the questions I need to ask them. And to me, that's just sort of the bedrock of where the notion of questions are important. Questions are crucial in communication. And as a leader, you need to get comfortable with what are the questions I should be asking here.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

And how do you ask questions that are showing your strength, not just your weakness? It doesn't mean that I don't know something, but I don't know this, or I want to verify it from your perspective. So I connect with you and I sincerely ask for your input. Because the other thing, which I've heard you point out in the past too, is that leaders sometimes will ask questions, but you know they actually are not interested in the answer because they're ready to ask the next question before you've even answered. Right. They're just going through the motions.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

And I think that points to what role listening plays in communication. That, as you said, the physical presence and how you port yourself, how you um come into any conversation. But boy, the listening piece is crucial that in the listening, you really open the space for relational leadership to get richer and deeper. Because you're you have to listen. So that's not just saying one thing and then like, okay, we're done here. I've I've told you what that I want to understand you and I want to care about you. We're done. Now I've, you know, check. No, it takes more of the the building and the really listening to the responses so that you can hear what is it that they need? What are they looking for? And it's going to be different for every person you hope to influence.

unknown 11:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

And why don't we go to the third foundation element of contextual leadership? And then I'll just open it up if you want to talk about inspirational, supportive, or responsible leadership. But with respect to contextual, how do you think about the link between that and and uh communication?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Well, it it's, you know, as the foundation builds, which we we know and we were we've been talking about it in that way. Contextual is about what is the information they need to know. And it relies on your understanding of the work they're doing, what are their needs. So you have to spend some time in the relational before you can step into the contextual. And it's really interesting the fact that contextual leadership is statistically the lowest scoring of the six domains when we use our SDLS, our survey. And doesn't that make sense? If you aren't asking questions, or if you aren't thinking about what is it they need to know, that's why we don't ask questions. We don't say, does this make sense to you? Or um do you see how this fits into the bigger picture? If we're not taking the time because we assume they already know that, or they quote, should know that, we really limit how willing we are to offer up contextual information. And none of us has tried to lead and not found themselves going, of course they don't know that. Why did I assume? Right? Yeah. I I think it just it makes perfect sense that contextual is the hardest one to do, but it really connects back into it's about effective communication and asking the right questions and really understanding what is it, as you said, what is it they need to know, and how can I figure that out and learn that along the way.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

And we often have trouble putting ourselves in their shoes to know what they need to have explained, because it could be, as you alluded to, I already know that, so I assume everybody else knows it. But it could also be, I don't know it, but it never occurred to me someone would need to know it because I haven't been in their shoes. And especially when you're leading people who have particular expertise or grappling with particular problems that are not your angle on the world, it's hard to put yourself in their shoes. But that's one of the foundation elements you need. And that rests critically on communication, both asking the questions, as you said, and then giving them the answers that help them understand the situation we're in.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

And being comfortable enough to challenge the assumptions that you either hear in someone's voice and what they're saying, or what you may have. And feel being allowing yourself as a leader to be vulnerable enough to go, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, you just said something that makes me think that you're this is what you think is your responsibility. I really want to challenge that a little bit and say, no, you have a whole team to be doing this.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

You know, I love this. It's giving me a thought I haven't had before about leadership, which is to draw the analogy to the um Sherlock Holmes idea of, you know, the dog that didn't bark. What was the question someone should have asked for clarification about that they didn't ask? Yes. As a leader, you want to listen for the dog that doesn't bark. And that's very hard. And then you want to link that to what communication did they need from me and what more do I need from them in order to recognize the bark was missing.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

And so often that sort of pushes against people's uh understanding about what a leader should do. I should have the answers, I should guide them. Yeah, I should be the person that shines the light. And what what you really need to do is create the space so that the flashlight can beam around until, oh, this is maybe what's going on at the heart of it.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Yeah. Do you want to talk at all about the inspirational, supportive, and responsible pieces?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Well, I think I think that all of those are they, you know, the the the action, the supportive and the inspirational are both in what we call the action tier. So ultimately, you're asking people to do something more, a little more. You want them to reach a little higher for inspirational. You want them to be brave and take the initiative on something. So that again points right back down to trust and building trust. And then knowing what it is they need. If you're leading someone, there are people who are very happy to take the initiative, like they're off to the races. Yeah. And you're like, well, let's, you know, maybe we should slow down a little and get a little more refinement about what that is, without having them feel as though, well, you said you want me to take initiative. Then you have to open up for some space there. And I think it's it's our job as leaders to find the right communication, the right words to help the individuals and what we've learned about them in that foundational work to pick the right words to inspire them, to, to help them reach a little higher, to pick the right kind of what is it that they need to feel safe enough to take the initiative? And then responsible is sort of the culmination of all of it. Where your dream is to have people say, I'm doing this because this is what we need to do. We have to get this done. And okay, shared sense of responsibility and shared sense of ownership about what you're dreaming about. Um, so it's all reliant on that foundation tier.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

So, where do you see the biggest communication failures, uh, the biggest stumbling blocks or obstacles where either there are obstacles to communicate or the failure of communication leads to obstacles in achieving uh leadership success?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I think without a doubt, I would say the biggest trip-up for leaders is relying on that sense of I'm supposed to have the answers, I'm supposed to be able to tell them what to do. Without saying, I'm supposed to encourage, inspire, support them into working with me and all of us and the context that we're in to find the answers. Because um, can I share a couple of examples with you?

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Of course, please.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Um this one is influence over um a single person. So I was working with an an executive at FEMA and this person, he he was very frustrated um that the way it's set up, they they were receiving orders sort of thrown over the wall as the bureaucratic layer. They were thrown the political layer was throwing information and orders over the wall to them. And there was lack of context, the contextual leadership. And this person felt as though he had especially one particular employee who he really wanted to um, it's like he won't work with me. He just sits back and says, Well, you know, these guys taught this to you. What do you want me to do? And he couldn't break that. He couldn't find how to get someone to step up more or to even be inspired. Well, when we talked about it, we went through the six domains, which is so effective when you're coaching. And when we got to contextual, it was like, oh, this person needs to understand that I don't have the context. That I can't magically make context that I don't have right now appear. So I need his help in figuring out what kind of context we can gather in order to make decisions. And it totally changed their relationship. The person became more empathetic and also shifted what it is he was willing to ask the leader. It was it was really great.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

That that example is it's a great example of the whole foundation because the leader had to be willing to admit to weaknesses and to gaps, which in turn showed respect for the the um the knowledge and experience that their subordinate had. Yes, which in turn would help them jointly create an understanding of the context that either of them alone either didn't feel authorized to do or didn't have the knowledge to do.

unknown 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

And it was a joint solution, which only could come about through these elements of communication that are easily overlooked if you just look at one little piece. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

And I think what happened was when we were in our coaching session, what the leader recognized was oh, he's he's holding me accountable for what he believes I should be doing as a leader. And if I can reframe that for him, then uh he'll understand that I yes, I'd love to have the context too, but I don't. So what will we do? And it became more of the yes and.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

He I think the person that he was having trouble with was thinking, yes, but you're the leader. And what he said was, yes, and I don't have the information you're assuming I do. What do we do now?

SPEAKER_03 21:54

So it's interesting. It's it's in a sense a communication framing of what leadership. Is just as you can go from one directional, you know, you're my boss, I give you the report that you asked me for, you give me the direction of what you're asking for. And we do it sequentially, but it's all one directional at a time, that we recognize that a lot of leadership, some leadership is like that, but a lot of leadership is bilateral. It's jointly created rather than one does one thing, then the other does the other. Absolutely. Communication is a dialogue, in a sense.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

And also one of my favorite ground rules of life, you've heard me say it many times, but it really is at the heart, I think, of that point, which is the best decisions are made from the largest shared pool of relevant information. And every single word in there is important. So if you think about that, the best decisions are made from the largest shared pool of relevant information. You have to share the information. You have to find out what's relevant. And so that says in order to make the best decisions, I need to create that space. And I have to, as a leader, I have to develop my key questions that get to what are we missing here? Or is that relevant in this case? Those kinds of questions that build that dialogue. And if you can, to me, if leaders can change their mindset to, I have to tell them what to do, to we've got to make, we have to make a decision, whether you own it eventually or not, we have to make a collect decision. I'm owning that decision. And I want to do it with the largest shared pool of relevant information that I can gather in the time that I have. And that means you got to be good at asking the right questions.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

You know, it it this gives me an idea of a metaphor for this, which is the word pool. If you think of a body of water that's a shared body of water, but let's say it's in a river where there are these very dangerous eddies in various places, which are like the information bubbles that people can be in, where they are circling around and they don't realize other people don't aren't in their same eddy that it's a pool. What we need to do is to combine all of these, get out of that sort of black hole. I'm mixing metaphors here, black hole that the eddy represents, and develop a shared pool of information. It requires each of us to contribute our part, but then to feel the ownership of the whole. But that only works if the communication is real, living, and um and and also is part of the sharing.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

And is authentic. So I have one other story about that quote, that um idea, that concept about the larger shared pool of relevant information. Um, a client that I was working with decided, just fell in love with that expression. It was like, oh, this this makes so much sense. Okay, I really so he started using it. And it's a long phrase. You know, the best decisions are made from the largest shared pool of relevant information. And it doesn't roll off the tongue. It does from mine, because I say it so freaking often, but it doesn't really roll off the tongue. He shortened his, he explained it to his team. Actually, this was a she. She explained it to her team. And um, and they were so they were so, and then they did it. They really, what's relevant? What's relevant? You know, do you know this? Do you know this? And after that, it became a short little tool, which was all right, gather up everybody in the pool. That's great. And they knew what that was all about, you know. And I think that to me is where the work that you and I are doing on the connection between communication and the six domains really comes down to that. Each leader has to find their way of saying everybody in the pool.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

And they have to do it in a way that I just I can't encourage leaders enough to you have to find the phrases that work for you. So that means you have to understand the mindset you're looking for. And what's the mindset? If your mindset is, I really need to get input from everybody else and understand what they need, then you need to develop the questions that'll get you there. And they have to be true to you. They have to work for you.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

So so that that leads to my next question how do you convey the importance of communication in leadership uh effectively to learners, to leaders who want to become better leaders, or even great leaders who want to sustain that and get even and get even better. What are the ways that you can build that into programs, into coaching, into individual um development in an organization?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

I think the main point is to help them really feel comfortable with that notion, the logical notion that more information is helpful. We're always going to be limited by time. But don't assume you know what you don't know. You you really have to be vulnerable enough to say, I've got this much time to make this decision. And here's my thinking about it. I want to test the waters a little bit and ask questions like, what are we not asking here? What relevant information do we not have here? And getting people to think that way as well. So you're in order to create the mindset of people wanting to have dialogue, you have to have the same kind of mindset. And so that's the most important thing, I think, in our training is to connect them to saying, if you want to do personal, relational, contextual, if you want to, particularly if you want to do inspirational and supportive, you have to have the mindset that it's going to be a dialogue. It's got to be a dialogue, and that you have something to learn. You can't have all the answers. Your answers are going to become sharper once you've got the right information around you and allowing yourself to have that vulnerability.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

But also for either young leaders or leaders who are a little hesitant and lack confidence, it's not only you have something to learn, you have something to offer. Yes. Regardless of where you're coming from. And it may be you're facilitating the process. You come into a situation. I've I often use the example that I was put into an executive role when I was in my mid-20s. Who was I to be in that role?

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

What I had to recognize was there were people with a lot more experience and expertise than I had, but I had some ability to help manage the process and bring that out of them. And I also knew some stuff. So it's that two sides of being confident enough, but be to be open.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

And also to think about this is where the six domains framework can be helpful, is to recognize that some of the communication is about the situation that we're in, helping people understand the organization, what we're doing, why we're doing it, and how that it all fits together. But some of it is about you as a leader and the person or people you're leading. And you've got to communicate about all those things. Yeah. If you want to go, that's about the present situation, essentially. When you get to inspirational supportive leadership, you're talking about where are we going down the road. Yeah. And you need to help people see that as well and let them help you see it, because they're going to see opportunities you may not have thought of.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

I think one of the hardest things for leaders in, you know, you've got to put a vision out there saying, this is where I believe we can go. And here's why we want to do that. And then the truth is, for that vision to really come to fruition, you have to take all the passion that you felt for it. And then you've got to put it out there and let everybody put their mucky hands all over your vision. It's got to be something that's shared if it's really going to come to be. And that's hard. When you, when you have the passion that we do as leaders, you want to put it out there and you want everybody to go, yeah, you know. And when they're like, okay, maybe. It it, oh, wait a minute, you know, and you don't want to beat it into them. You want to find out what's what else do they need to know about this? And again, open up that space. Boy, that foundation. That's where all that comes from.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Because, because what you want is them to not just observe your passion, but feel it connected to their passion and to have it a list. Right. So it may be their existing passion, or it may be you're drawing a passion out they never even saw in themselves before. You've got to be a catalyst. Okay, let me switch gears here because part of the role of leadership and part of the role of communication is this enabling, opening up aspect. But part of what it's all about in, especially in organizations, is exercising control more effectively. What is the role of communication in fostering leader control and organizational control? And how do you do it so it doesn't undermine all the things we've been talking about?

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Right. I I think I think the what I would do is I would take the word control out of it and substitute it with clarity. Because through clarity, you set the expectations. And the expectations are what create the boundaries, the parameters, the the execute executable path. And if you can be thinking in terms of clarity versus control, the control comes as a result of people being clear about what their responsibility is and what the organization expects from them. And checking in on that, you know, just saying, is that clear to you? It's what isn't clear about that. What can I what's going to get in the way for you? Can I tell you one more story?

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Yeah, can I just raise one thing there, though? Is being building on your earlier point about being open, being open about the clarity, as well as not only is this clear to you and what's not clear, but is what's clear to you correct? Or do we need to change it in some way? By being clear, I make it easier for you to communicate back to me not only what I didn't explain, but what I might have explained that's dead wrong. Yes. In your view. Or it might be right for the organization as a whole, but it's going to be really problematic for your job or your unit. And until I was clear, you couldn't convey back to me what the problem was.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

And you couldn't communicate back to them where you're like, I can't, I can't meet this expectation. I can't do this until you have shared. So that's what helps with flipping the question, you know, what do you think is going to get in the way of this?

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Um, it it allows somebody else to be able to fill in some of the pixels in the picture, you know. Um, so the other story I was going to tell you was an executive that I coached a long time ago. He was the CEO of a company that was purchased by the company that hired me to to work with him. And we had sort of a rocky start to begin with, because he was trying to come in and be, you know, you know, I've I've I've I've owned a company and who are you? And what do you what is this coaching thing? And we just, I said, fine, this is just a test. Let's just talk for a while. Well, one of the things that he said was bothering him was that he didn't really get a sense of how his employees felt about him. And he said, I get this feeling maybe they're scared of me or something. And then at one point, um, it during we we were working together for a year plus. He said, You know, I overheard, or somebody came to me and said that they heard one of my employees going, Well, when he walks down the hall, it's like he's just flying down and throwing out orders. He was head of sales for a large portion of the global network, throwing out orders and rushing, and people who were just scrambling behind him trying to catch them. And he goes, I don't, I don't do that. I'm throwing things at them because I believe in their capacity to deal with more. And they're, these are opportunities I'm throwing out. And so we started talking about questions and what is it that might be able to shift that. And he was, he was, he got very excited and he said, Okay, so now when I'm, I'm not gonna change the fact that I run down the hall and I throw out opportunities, because that's what sales is all about. But I'm gonna add something. And what we were fine together was that he was gonna add, when I come back, whichever the time frame was, when I come back, I want to hear from you what you believe is gonna get in the way and exactly what you need me to do to keep that moving forward. And it totally changed the dynamics of the team. They started to feel as though they started to see it as opportunity, not as command, do this or else, you know. And it it just made all the difference in the world. And that's just a shift in how he communicated. It was adding a piece of clarity and also sharing something about himself, saying, I see my role as helping you that they weren't, they weren't feeling that before. Yeah. So just by saying, I want you to tell me what you need for me in order to make this sales happen, it it opened up a whole other area for them.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

You know, it reminds me of uh I remember a number of years ago working with a German bank that had acquired an American bank because they wanted to become more innovative. Um, and they were very command and control in their orientation. And I shared this with some of the people who were supposed to be leading this initiative. And they said, Oh, great, we get it. We're gonna give them exactly what we want them to innovate about and tell them exactly how they should innovate. And I said, No, no, you're missing the main point. Yeah. By the way, it it didn't work because they couldn't overcome sort of the cultural underpinnings and they ended up not innovating, they ended up not gaining value from the American company because they couldn't make that adjustment. And what it also reminds me of, I think you've heard me say this before, I like to quote my friend Marty Dempsey, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who said, in today's world, the only way to effectively exercise control is to give up control. And as a leader, giving up control doesn't mean you're just throwing your hands up. It means you're finding how do I clarify for them and then let them know I will support them as they try to exercise control over their domain. And I'm telling them what the right and left boundaries are, what the rules of engagement are, and what they're not. And then within that, they can be as innovative and creative and they can figure out what controls are enabling controls rather than coercive controls for them.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

And I think it also I want to point back to the pyramid because it's just got so much power, what we call the lower right triangle, that combination of having built a relationship that's establishing trust, giving them information so that they feel supported. And they're not going to feel supported until they've got some sense of trust and also that information they need to feel brave enough to jump in there and do it.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

And also, the support of peace is encouraging initiative, but it's not endless initiative. It's knowing what initiative is appropriate or inappropriate. So they in turn are leading up, let's say, and saying, should we be doing this or that? Or you gave me too much freedom on this. I think I need some guidelines. Right. But it's a di it goes back to the dialogue. Yes. I think we need to pause here for a moment and wrap things up by asking if we think about this combination of communication, control, and leadership effectiveness, can we can you think of one concrete example of where putting those all together has really been transformational for an organization?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

I I think um I wish I could say it was for a whole organization. But I think um the example I'd point to was yeah, it it you could consider it the company itself, took over this notion of they didn't call it everybody in the pool, but they took over this notion of everybody has a piece of the truth. And with that, you know, that expression says, okay, if I as a leader want to figure out the truth, or there is a truth about how we're going to get from point A to point B, then I really have to believe down to my toes that everybody has some information that's going to be valuable to that. And I think they they really absorbed that language, and that was their key phrase. But again, it comes down to what is the phrase that works that sticks, the stickiness. It kind of connects to advertising. How do you get people to what is it that clicks for people in terms of a phrase that that a leader feels they can often say again and again and make it authentic and real and meaningful? So you and I have been talking a lot about cross-cultural things. And I think again, this same notion of communication, how do you communicate across a divide, a cultural divide? And helping people see in that case, it's not a piece of the truth, it's an understanding of what is. And so using the six domains to find those paths for dialogue is is just it's the key. It's it's absolutely the key. And for leaders, it means a little shift in mindset, but that deep belief that it is dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

And I think the other thing to sort of conclude that you raised that I think is really critical, is you can get general lessons about communication, but you've got to communicate in a way that is true to yourself. Absolutely. And and when you talk about cross-cultural, it's if two cultures are coming together, which can be within an organization, it can be cross-national, it doesn't matter. Um happens all the time, cross-disciplines, for example. Um each side has its own way of communicating, its own language, its own style, its own pace. And what you need to be able to do is be adaptable enough at the boundaries that as a leader, if you're dealing with different groups, you may adjust your style and your focus to what they need from you, but you still have to be who you are in order to sustain that sense of credibility and trust and to really be able to lead the diverse community that most of our organizations are these days.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

And I think our work together on this is really, really pointing to that notion of the six domains gives you the systematic approach to what you need to do. The communication you use will really support your being able to do that. And the one thing that's required is an openness to dialogue. While remaining authentic, you have to be believable. And that's why personal, personal relationship, personal leadership is at the very beginning. You have to, and you can. That's that's what we want to help people do is find out what what are the words that you're gonna use that will create that space that will build the dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Great. Thanks so much, Beth. It's really been a pleasure. It's been fun.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

And I hope it's been informative for people. I think it has been.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

I do too. Thanks again. I appreciate the time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Thank you for joining us for the Six Domains of Leadership podcast. If this episode sparked new thinking about your leadership, we invite you to take the next step. Explore our six domains of leadership workshops, certification programs, executive coaching, and 360 leadership assessments at Deltaleadership.com. And if you found value in today's conversation, share it. Because leadership grows when it's shared. To learn more about our global concierge leadership program. Programs, visit our website, connect with us on LinkedIn, and follow us on Facebook. Delta Leadership is where leaders from around the world come together to create meaningful, lasting change. And remember, better leaders create better organizations. Better organizations build better communities, and better communities shape better societies.