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Let's Talk
Total Fertility Rate in Singapore... Why the low birth rate?
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Birth rate is an issue everywhere. Why the low birthrate? Is it a financial problem or is it just the mindset of youngsters nowadays? Let us talk about it.
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So, Ryan, I know you have two kids. Alright?
SPEAKER_00So, in the first place, do you even want to have kids? Uh in the first place, let me see. If let's say I'm 20 plus years old, I actually didn't think to have kids. Actually, from the start, since I was younger, I really don't like kids. Because one thing they are very noisy. If they are sleeping, they are cute. Yeah, I love them. But the moment they make noise, whew. Yeah, because I really cannot take it when the kids cry and throw temptures. Because for me, I I remember I throw temptures, but I I when my brother was born, the moment he threw temption, the moment he starts to cry, I really feel like just take a cane and just wait. Yeah, so I don't really like kids, but now I have to because I don't want in Chinese saying uh Lao Lao Ho Marin Song. I mean to say there's no one to deliver my funeral. I don't want to die alone. Yeah. And I also don't want to, when I was at old age, really needed nobody to take care of me. Probably, maybe they don't take care of me. I also don't know. Okay. But at least there's someone. Yeah, there's someone. There's someone who is my blood.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, why? Have you seen the news that Singapore our fertility rate, total fertility rate last year in 2025 was 0.87. We are ranked number two lowest around the whole world. You mean the childbirth rate? Yes, correct. We are the lowest.
SPEAKER_00Second lowest. Second lowest. Based on last year's statistics. So now people don't want to give birth. Correct. Okay. Why why is it what's the real question here? Is it a crisis?
SPEAKER_01Crisis.
SPEAKER_00Uh I will think that maybe because it's too expensive. Singapore cost of living is very high. Yeah. Maybe I can explore it into this episode. Yes. Okay. So let's start with this episode. This is Ryan. He is Sean. And this is Let's Talk. Yeah, let's start with the most common reason people give up. The cost. The cost of living is the too expensive. Everything is too expensive. Housing is expensive. Yeah, childcare is expensive. Education is expensive. Yes. You still need to have what enrichment class, tuition class, etc. So raising a child in Singapore is like a financial commitment that lasts 20 years.
SPEAKER_01Around that.
SPEAKER_00Around that. Because when 20 years, 21 years, I would expect my son to go into the army already, I show him that really. Yeah, and complete their education. And so if you are being honest, is it really that people cannot afford kids? Because for me myself, I'm only earning an average of six, five to six thousand, or maybe four to five thousand depends on the days I'm not working. I mean I barely scrap by. Yeah, because I had to give up a certain lifestyle. Okay. I have really fully paid my house. I don't really need to pay for my car. I only pay to pay for the petrol. Okay. So is it very expensive? Do do I have enough money to sustain and to raise a kid? I would say, yeah, I still have. I mean, for for my kind of income, I just went by the basic. Right? So it's not really whether we cannot afford kids. It's rather if they do want to afford kids.
SPEAKER_01Because now currently, currently for young couples, they want a certain lifestyle of freedom, I would say. They have enough financially, they have enough to travel twice yearly overseas for their trips to go to Japan, Korea, and explore the world, experience the culture over there, this kind of thing. This is what they like to do now. Create memories, correct? Yeah, then uh they also I would say social media play a part that affects their lifestyles. Social media. Yes. Like how? Like you see a lot of algorithm depending on what you like, your interest. If you like to travel, then every time you see posts about people traveling to certain countries, going skating, going, diving, all different types of posts. So I think the uh mindset is being affected by that certain post of that they view almost every day. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's the same people that are still want to travel, upgrading, the iPhone, the iPhone 17, maybe iPhone 80, maybe an iPhone follower, I don't know. Or maybe going cafe hopping every weekend. Right, right. So it's the issue is not really the affordability. It's rather it's rather that they are the kids is competing with the lifestyle they currently have. And then they want. Yes. Alright? Okay. Having a kid means you need to really give up on certain things. Kids diapers is expensive. That we agree. It can be replaced with one of your lifestyles, maybe your LB bags. Okay, maybe your Prada bags.
SPEAKER_02Okay?
SPEAKER_00Kids, milk powder is expensive, yes. But it also can be replaced with your alcohol, your cocktails, your beer, your nightclubs, etc. Okay? Having a kid means it takes up most of your time. Like I said, your nightclub. Your nightlife is gone. Nightlife is gone. Okay? So it's rather that people don't want to have kids. It's because they don't want to give up those kinds of lifestyles. They will still want to go for nightclubs. They want freedom. They want money. They want to see their money grow inside their bank. Or rather than having it deducted away for certain things that it is not meant for you. It's meant not meant to spend on myself, but rather spend on the kid.
SPEAKER_01So actually, it's not really too expensive to have a kid in Singapore, but it's more of the kid will affect the lifestyle you currently have, which many young couples are not willing to sacrifice.
SPEAKER_00If let's say I have a$4,000 or$5,000 income and I don't have a kid, whoa, so many things I can spend on, man. Yeah, I don't really need to spend on a car because I have a car, but I only need to spend on the petrol. The petrol is excessive, yes. But I can spend a lot of money on other things. Yeah. But having a kid is also the same as you're having a car. If you can afford a car, you can definitely afford a kit. It's only a matter of whether you want a car or want a kid. You can choose either all. But if you're rich enough, yeah, you can have both best of both worlds. Yeah, true. And the most important thing is when you're married, you take and you have a kid, it takes two hands to clap. Your wife may be working. Do you have a more income now? So is it really expensive? No, I don't think so. It's rather that people just don't want to have the the child burden to affect what they want to achieve in their life. So it also depends on what they want in their life. But now parenting today is very different from the past.
SPEAKER_01Yes, parenting has become the pressure of being a parent is so so high now. Do you agree? Okay, because parenting today is very different from the past. Last time you see our parents and our grandparent generation, they have our grandparent generation have five kids, ten kids. It's very normal. My mother's side got ten, my father's side got like two. My mother's side got seven, my father's side got ten. So it is very common last time to have five to ten kids. For our grandparent generation.
SPEAKER_00Last time raised kids is very simple. All you need is a cane.
SPEAKER_01Well, last time grandparent generation is the elders who take care of the younger one. So it just helps.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the younger one, the younger one is always the priest and the priest.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for our parent generation, it's more of having two to four kids. So why? Because I think last time parents just raised a child. Today, having a kid for the young for the younger parents is more of managing a project. Like what you say, uh financial commitment of 20 years, right? So it's about a project that lasts 20 years. Okay, so what kind of project are they losing? Are they making a robot? So because you see the kid in current generation, young education, everything, they need to have tuition, they need to have enrichment classes, they even need to have a coding lesson because now AI is taking over almost all the industry. They also need to have music lesson. I don't know, music lesson maybe to make them a more defined person, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so got classic class.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so and then in local culture, there's this unspoken pressure. If your child don't perform right, you have failed as a parent. So the child the child don't perform academic-wise.
SPEAKER_00Then I fail already because my son.
SPEAKER_01I believe your your mindset and our parents' mindset is still still very close by, so you're not that kind of very competitive parent. Yeah, but in current generation, you want your child to have a better start, I wouldn't say a higher, but a better starting point point from what we have last time. So you want them to have all this extra enrichment and tuition so that they can perform better in their subject and excel in their lives.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Maybe when they grow up ready, then they like if you start young in coding classes, that it's only now that I realize actually secondary school they promote coding classes also. Yes. So you when you start young, maybe in primary school, you start to have a coding lesson. Then when you are in secondary school, you can actually uh have a have a step further than the rest.
SPEAKER_01You have a haystart. Yeah. A better haze start than the rest, correct? So I think the fear isn't just to have kids. It's they are scared of not doing it properly or correctly.
SPEAKER_00Okay, for this question, the fear of not doing it properly. How is it proper? Is it because of the tuition, the the amount of arrangement class, the coding class, the music class, and all the all the all the classes?
SPEAKER_01I would say I would say there's no perfect answer of parenting. Will you agree? Because every child is unique. Every child is unique, so they have their own interests, they are there, they don't have hobbies. And some children don't excel so well when they're young, but they excel when they start working.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Right? Yeah. So there's no perfect answer or perfect solution of parenting or parenthood. It's more there's you just try and error along the way as a parent.
SPEAKER_00So as a parent myself, a parent of two kids. Okay, you also have two kids, but yours, yours is different than mine. The age gap. The age gap. My eldest is 13, my youngest is four. So let's talk about my eldest 13. You talk about tuition, arrangement class, whether I am doing it properly. I would say I'm following the traditional style. I just want my kids to be happy. I want my kid to have childhood. So actually, I don't really send him for arrangement class. I only send him for tuitions because his academic is on the downslope. So that's why I have a tuition to pull his PSLE.
SPEAKER_01So you won't expect him to be a top few percent of the class or cohort, but you just want him to pass?
SPEAKER_00I just want him to live a proper human life because I don't want him to be like a robot out of the like what you say, a project. Because I people will say that having a child is an investment. But to me, it's having a child is I just want him to be a proper human and he grow up so that he can take on my legacy. Maybe not say take on my my amamenta or maybe my survey, etc. Or maybe just someone who grows up and become like me. Okay, teach his own children well. See if he decides to have children. If he decides to have children, not in terms of whether whether I whack him before or maybe all the classes that he goes, maybe have a proper childhood so that he will have a proper childhood memories with his own. Yeah. Because I don't want it to become a high pressure kind of parenting. I mean, work is high pressure enough. Why do I need to make parenting as a word?
SPEAKER_01So though this comes to another thing that what you mentioned at the start is expensive, the sacrifice of the lifestyle. Yeah. And also parenting is high pressure because I think another reason is because of the career. Correct. That's why I think career actually gives us a lot of pressure really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. A lot of stress really. Like I said, uh, because work has really become high pressure. We don't want the parenting to be another kind of pressure. Because having a child doesn't just cost money, it costs time, energy, and opportunities already. So from my point of view, if let's say I when I were at work, okay, work also costs time, energy, opportunities. Okay, people don't want to have a child because of it. Child and parenting is also cost time, energy, and opportunities. You mean that if you have a child, your career progression might be affected. Yeah, especially for women, you affect affect her career progression when they are pregnant. The moment your boss sees that you are pregnant, it means it's the start of your end of career. Or a pause in the career. Yes, because you your your nine months of pregnancy will affect your mood, your your health. You still need to go for medical checkout, etc. You need to take a lot of leaves. And then the moment when you give birth, okay, government rule one month of paid leave must be given. Yeah, during your performance.
SPEAKER_01One month is, I think.
SPEAKER_00No, three months. It's three months. Okay, the moment you are on your eighth month of pregnancy, you can just on the leave all the way until you give birth and after your performance really. Okay? So the three months of paid salary. Then after that, it will depend on whether the lady still wants to work or don't want to work, so they stay at home. So it's also a risk for the boss. So that's why I say it could be could be the end of career for most women. Okay? And for others, it will give it means give up freedom, like the spontaneous travel, like suddenly I want to travel to South Korea, or maybe today I'm here working, tomorrow I want to go to Japan. Okay? Some personal free time and the flexibility.
SPEAKER_01Because you think you apply leave. So maybe not so say to work today. Tomorrow on the fly.
SPEAKER_00Like for example, let's say today is Friday, tomorrow to fly. Okay, so is the issue of trade-off, like whether you want a curve between trade-off between career and having a child. It's a choice. So in modern society, children are no longer seen as the default step.
SPEAKER_01Last time our grandparents and parents is standard. You get married, you have a family, you have a work, or you have a work, have a family, have a kid. It's a standard procedure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's not a default step, like the first, the second choice already. But career family kit. Or career maritime kit. Now it's a choice. Maybe career, family, family, career. Career rich idea, and then maybe a kid. Probably you're at your 40s really. Or maybe you have a second wife. Okay. So some people will simply don't see it as a good deal to have a kid. They will see it as a as a high cost, high responsibility, and a lifestyle trait of. Okay. That is why fertility is lower.
SPEAKER_01But you mentioned that for the maternity leave, there's this paid salary. But I believe government they have policies to reimburse the company. Reimburse the company for the salary. Oh, really? Yeah. It's not purely the company have paid all three months. Yeah. The government also stepped in to help. Because I think the government has noticed or they understand this crisis, this problem exceeded since many years ago. That's why they have many policies to help and try to make people want to have kids. So what are the government policies? One of it is baby bonuses. So when you have a first kid, you can up and can have up to 13k for first and second child? 13k, not 11k. 11k, yes. Yeah. Because from the third child overstanding is 13K. Then childcare subsidies for working mom. Yeah, and housing, housing priority scheme. So you have a kid, you have higher or a better chance of you supporting a queue for your house. Ver balloting, yes, correct. So on the paper, plus policies or on paper, but on the paper, you can see that the support has increased significantly over the years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so if let's say the government policy, there's so much things effort the government puts in really by increasing the baby bonus, increasing the paternal leave, maternity leave, the child sick leave, parent care leave, etc., and also the housing priority, the housing grant. So why is fertility rate still failing?
SPEAKER_01Because you see, all this policy mainly is to reduce the cost of having a kid. Okay. But we don't really see it as too expensive. Hopefully, for many other people that we also see, we don't see too expensive because we are willing to sacrifice our lifestyles to having a kid. But for younger adults, young adults, they it will affect their lifestyle. Although there's help from policies, but it will still affect their lifestyles. They have to sacrifice a lot of things. So the policy doesn't change how people feel about having kids.
SPEAKER_00Between the choice of having a diaper and the freedom, yeah. If giving me a time also choose freaking.
SPEAKER_01And you see about cost of living also. All this policy actually is to cope with cost of living. So you see our cost of living is getting higher and higher every year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, especially look at the petrol now, and it's oh my god, for$2.78 per liter now is 3.5.
SPEAKER_01So you see all this policy, right? It's just to, I would say the cost of living is one. All this policy is one, you detect each other, you can zero. Yeah. So basically you still need to fork out a lot to raise a kid.
SPEAKER_00But not only that, there are still something that people don't really talk enough, which is not enough time. Yeah, time is a very big issue. I mean, one whole day you only got 24 hours, minus a way eight hours of sleep, you only get 16 hours.
SPEAKER_01Then you need data two hours travel time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you only have four hours. So four hours, what can you do with it? Nothing. In Singapore, work hours are long. Okay. By the time when you got home, you're already exhausted. Yes. I mean, look at our peak hour. Our peak hour, all the all the trains are packed with studies. Even the traffic is very bad. The normal time of 20 minutes, maybe it will take you 40 to an hour for you to get home. Okay, so you say childcare. You still need off work ready, you still need to hurry over to the childcare before 7 p.m. Before 7 pm when the childcare center closes, you know, you'll get a penalty. You see parenting responsibility, you need to feed the child. Okay, you still need to give dinner, you still need to bathe, bathe him or her, you still need to change your clothes, you still need to make sure they sleep. All the emotional energy on top of all that. Yeah, so it's not just about money anymore, it's whether people even have the capacity to raise a child. I mean, like I say, you only got like four hours only. Okay, one whole entire day. Like for me, even me myself, I only sleep like five to six hours a day. Okay, and I work like 14 hours. How much do I have? By the time I got home, 9 p.m. And I said need to do what? You cannot do anything really. By 10 or 11, I need to sleep, really.
SPEAKER_01So you will say that the time, the time you have left to spend with your kids are very limited.
SPEAKER_00I mean, in this kind of world, in this world, I I wouldn't say it's just in Singapore, but in the whole entire world, we build a society that is very good at making money. I mean, look at all the businesses around, all the office building, etc. But we have very bad society at raising families because time is a limit. There's not enough time. We have time to go and chase to earn money. Time is money, correct?
SPEAKER_01I think not only you have this uh view of limited time, because if you see in our local news, our local social media, many parents are also raising this issue of having uh shorter working hours so they can have more time to spend with their kids. Some are even suggesting to end the work at 4 p.m.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, some even say what four days' work week, right? Yes, correct. So they have this uh if I'm not wrong, they also sort of government policy about it, flexible work timing, correct?
SPEAKER_01But is is this policy is just still on paper, but it's not enforced.
SPEAKER_00I mean, which kind of office and bosses would like employees to earn that salary and still have flexible hours, right? That's the problem. I mean they're really not very happy with the work from home.
SPEAKER_01So I believe this this is still policy that the government has to discuss and you and do some research about it. They are trying to take away work from home. They want to implement back work from office. Correct. But some some companies are okay with you having five days of week, but one or two days working from home. Depends on the industry.
SPEAKER_00I mean, as long as it doesn't affect the company's uh routine. Yeah, it should be okay. So so this this is still uh this is still a company, the boss mindset. Well, I pay you to be to work at home.
SPEAKER_01Because the scare uh productivity is different when working from home and working from office.
SPEAKER_00So is this trend unique for Singapore? Is it because of the society, the work, etc.?
SPEAKER_01I would say no, because if you have looked into different countries like Japan, Italy, South Korea, they are all facing the same issue as us. Fertility rate dropping. The lowest rate is South Korea. We are rank number two. The next is Japan. South Korea. Yes. So you see, this gives us a better insight. Okay, that the more delivered and successful a country becomes, actually, the fewer children the country will have.
SPEAKER_00But we want to compare US and China, they are also very low.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they also haven't hit because we have this well total volatility rates should be around 2.1 to maintain our current society population size. But you see, Singapore is 0.87, South Korea is 0.7, Japan is about 1.2, US in the wrong is 1.5, 1.6, China is also about the same. Yeah. So you see, all these countries are facing the issue. The only the more the few countries that don't have this issue, right, is actually most of it is concentrated in the South Africa. Okay. Their birth rate is like 4.0, 5.0. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yes. Okay. So the more developed a successful country becomes the fewer children people have.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So the more the modern success, right, and reproduction doesn't go together anymore. All right. So this gives us to our next question. Does immigration help to solve the population issue?
SPEAKER_00So what happens? Like people stop having kids, like Singapore right now.
SPEAKER_01You based on our projection from government, we will have a manpower crisis by 2040.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's why they are bringing in foreign talents, they are encouraging immigration coming in. But we also cannot stop people from migrating out. Yes.
SPEAKER_01So this this solution of immigration, right, is it a temporary fix or is it a long-term solution?
SPEAKER_00It will be something like replacing a problem with another problem. Why? Because let's say we replace our low birth rate with foreign talents. Yeah, foreign talents is good. They come here, they work, they become PR, they become, they register to become Singaporeans, or maybe permanent residents, they will be here. Are we actually solving the issue? No. You are just replacing certain work positions with foreign talents because no one, no locals is there to handle it. Because we got not enough birth. We have not enough population right now. So why do you think it is?
SPEAKER_01So what do you think is a problem, fixing a problem?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it will become like a cultural problem now. Okay, because Singapore is a multiracial country itself. But by meaning of multiracial from the past, it's only the four main ethnic Chinese, Malay, Indian, and Caucasians. That's it. And right now we have what? We have Vietnamese, we have Thailanders, we have what Philippines, uh, Filipinos, we have what French, we have German. All the other international talents are coming into Singapore to work here and stay here. Why do I say it's a cultural difference? Because all of them have different cultural views. They have different religions, they have different beliefs, they have different lifestyles. Maybe they talk different, they handle things different, they see things different from Singapore. We Singapore already have a very strong baseline of what we see, what cultural views we have, how we handle people, how we talk to people. How we respect their cultural. Correct? The la, lo, le, you know, the la looks like this la.
SPEAKER_01But this English is it doesn't mean that we cannot have proper English, English uh communication. Yeah, it's just our culture. It's not our culture.
SPEAKER_00It's a difference in communicating.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because of our different language. Like when you mentioned we've got Chinese means we've got Mandarin, we got Tamar. Yes, it's a combination. It's a combination. So our English is combined with all these different cultures and it's unique to us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So that's why that's why I say let's say we are bringing in more uh foreign talents for other countries. We are not a multi-racial country anymore. We are a multi-international country. We are the Singaporeans right now. We don't want, right now, uh Singaporean population is still standing strong. But we don't really want to have a chance where our Singaporean local population will drop less than 50%. That will really be a very, very big crisis. It's not just solving the problem, it's just replacing it with one, another one. Because we still need locals, we still need Singaporeans, we still need our birth rate to be on the good side. Okay, in order to sustain the country. Yeah, with our birth rate of Joe Parties. The only thing we also bring in for other countries, how about war? Okay? How about the army? Are we bringing in what mercenaries? Who is fighting fighting for our country? Who is fighting for our country, right? Even the governments. Are we really bringing in foreign talent for the government? No. Correct? So I think this gives us another.
SPEAKER_01Is this another topic for us to discuss? I wouldn't say about the talking. Because online, what I see online now is many local Singaporeans, right? When there's so many foreign talents, they are asking all these foreign talents to serve. Yeah. They are requesting them to serve, to be part of our.
SPEAKER_00I mean, as a foreign talent, if let's say I'm a foreign talent myself, I come over to Singapore. I come here to work and earn money. Do I want to serve? Then what happened to you thinking that? I want to become a Singaporean. Yeah, I will ask my son and son to go for the army, correct? Yeah. But if I'm just here to work, I bring my family here, of course I just want to be a peer. Okay. I still want to go back to my own country.
SPEAKER_01Maybe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maybe. Okay, or maybe other country offers a better, better, better bonus, better benefits. Of course I will jump there. Yeah. So it's only a temporary fix because the foreign talents coming here is only temporary. They wouldn't stay here for good. I mean, in it's a very good place for to retire, but I will have other places to retire to. Correct? Maybe I have inheritance, maybe. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01What you mentioned before, the difference in culture, which also will highly cause conflicts in our in our local culture. Because we are very absent of other culture, but some other nations they might not do not understand our culture, so they might not be able to accept it when they first came over.
SPEAKER_00It may not be it may not be rude to us, maybe it will be rude to them. Yes, correct. That's right. So yeah, we try not to replace one problem with another problem. So it's only a temporary, temporary thing. It's not a permanent fix. So maybe the issue is not just the cost, it's not the policy, it could be something deeper.
SPEAKER_01Okay? I think it's a shift in how people define happiness, success, and what are their priorities in life. Because today, right, having children is no longer the default path.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, having the now having dogs is also another path.
SPEAKER_01Having cats also, having pets. That's why we have dings. Do we income no kids?
SPEAKER_00And a ward with a dog. Okay? Yeah, maybe the real problem isn't just it isn't that people don't want kids. It's just the modern life makes kids feel like a bad choice. I mean, I could just daydream me having a nice house with a chandelier, with a good wine on the hand. But I cannot picture having kids jumping around, running around screaming, telling them truth. Yeah. So it's just that it's just the kind of modern life that people want. It's just a lifestyle that people want.
SPEAKER_01So I will say that this problem we have now, actually, will you agree that it's no policy can fix it anymore? Because the government has been trying their best to come up with a lot of policy, a lot of assistance, but the results are showing otherwise.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, unless the government tell me I can get$1 million if I have a kid, I will tell you I have a three, four, five kids, no problem. Okay? So let me ask you this. If everything was affordable, flexible, fully supported, would you have actually one kid? For me? Yes. For me, yes or so. I will have three, four, five kids, no problem. Soccer team. Okay? Soccer team. You need to have 11 or 12. If less than one kid, one million, I get 11 million.
SPEAKER_01I think I have basketball enough for the maximum. Basketball thing. Soccer thing will be too much. I cannot.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so that's all about it. Do you have anything to add on?
SPEAKER_01No, but for our listeners, our viewers, okay. The question is also for you, like what he mentioned. If everything is affordable, flexible, and fully supported, will you want kids? Leave your thoughts in the comment below.
SPEAKER_00And we we would appreciate if you could like and share and comment this video in our YouTube. And for those podcast listeners, you can head on to our descriptions. Our link is there to open our YouTube page. We will set up our Facebook and Instagram page sooner or later. Yeah, but the support will really help us a lot. Yeah, especially in this high rising cost. Okay, it's uh this is Sean. That was like this is Ryan.