The most dangerous environments in America are built from people who were never given a language.

In this episode of Soft + Savage, Sean Dino Johnson reflects on rehabilitation, performance, and what it means to restore dignity after the system has already written someone off.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Welcome to Soft and Savage. I am your host, Louise Levin. If you are interested in our conversations, please subscribe and like and follow our channel. Sean Dino Johnson epitomizes the quintessence of those that we showcase. He is the soft and savage archetype. He was convicted, sentenced, and served 15 years in Sing Sing prison, which is a maximum security prison that houses some of the most dangerous criminals in America. And three weeks after I interviewed him, he was walking the red carpet in Los Angeles, in Hollywood, because the film Sing Sing, that is a docudrama about the time that he spent in prison, was nominated for three Academy Awards. So, Sean Dino Johnson, thank you for coming to Soft and Savage. It's a privilege to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I had the great pleasure of seeing you in Sing Sing, I think it was three weeks ago, at Fairfield University at the Quick Center. And I was just blown away by the film because in this environment things are so toxic and I was so exhausted, and I thought, oh my god, I'm going to see another prison film. This will be a real toe-tapper. And it turned out to be just an inspiration and hope and resilience and humanity and mankind. And it just it actually brought me back to life. It resuscitated me. So for those who haven't seen the film yet, can you give us a description of what the film's about and how it came to be?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

The film is about a program that exists in New York State. And uh it started back in 96 called Rehabilitation Through the Arts. I'm one of the founding members of Rehabilitation Through the Arts. And it started off in one prison, now it's in eight prisons. And it's not teaching people how to be actors, it's teaching people life skills and learning to be more effective because the arts is the most powerful vehicle. Um at first we wanted just guys to get in touch with their their sense of humanity. And we we started off first doing skits for the population, and we became the conscious of the population in the performance that we would put on. We would always uh address the big elephant in the room, the things that men don't talk about in prison, and it it brought so much good feelings and hope to a lot of men in their hearts, just to to watch plays and and things, just deal with the things that we we stress about every day.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Well, one of the things that you said when you were on the panel after seeing the film was that when you go to prison, that there is such a significant potential for just becoming a number and being dehumanized. And what this did is it made people realize their humanity, it made them realize that there was a person inside and that that spread through the community, and it affected the way that people treated one another and the way that the administration treated you, and that it was just a very healing, healthy kind of process.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Absolutely. Uh, around the time that um RTA began, there was a lot going on in the prison. Uh, a lot of violence, a lot of anger, um just so much. And it was a lot to deal with. And guys need hope. They need something to hold on to. And RTA became that, the hope of the population. It began to bring people out of that environment. Cause when you when you're watching a play, you kind of forget where you're at. You get involved in what's going on on stage, and you leave prison for a little short time. And and the arts just take you away back to being human again and enjoying the things you've always enjoyed, or the things you hadn't experienced, even Shakespeare and and things of that nature. It's it's it's educating, it's refreshing, it's fulfilling. And it was so much of that, it was so much needed. At first, the administration was like, hmm. I guess the administration reacted, responded the same way I responded at the thought of theater in prison, you know, because a friend of mine was like, hey, Dino, come on, we're gonna go down to the school building and talk about putting together a theater program. I looked at him like, theater? You realize this is a maximum security facility? So you want me to put on tights and run around the stage talking about to be or not to be. I mean, come on. Come on, I'm waiting for the joke, the, you know, the laugh line. And he's looking at me like, seriously, because my experience with theater was very small. Very, really, it didn't even exist. And my perception of it was like, I mean, come on, knock it off. And you know, the the the guys in in prison was the same way. It was like, uh, theater, isn't it? But what happened was we came in a room, and of course, in prison, we we uh we we always click up in prison. In prison, you know, you associate with these guys or this guy, whoever you feel comfortable and who you identify with. So we go in the room, you got gangsters over in this corner, you got philosophers over there, you have the nerds over here, LGBTQ communities over here, and everyone's looking at each other like, and you had the jazz musicians all the way over there, and we, you know, we just clicked up like, you know, I don't mess with this guy, I don't talk to him in the yard, this thing, and we just clicked up, and we're looking at each other, then we start passing out scripts, and we started reading them. We start giving people roles, and then all of a sudden laughter began. We began to laugh, we began to smile, we began to realize that we were all had so much more in common. And before you know it, we didn't want to put the scripts down. We wanted to exist in this imaginary world and interact with one another and forgetting about who this person is or who that person is or whatever, and we're engaged in the scripts, and we loved it. I used to be a key block monster, I was an introvert. I stayed on key block because I was drowning in my own anger. And when I got part of this program, when we started this program, it was like I had something to hold on to. I had a reason not to get in trouble, I had a reason to to stay focused, and it changed my life. You know, I couldn't communicate effectively when I was younger. And every time I opened my mouth, people misunderstood me and it would always get me into problems. And the arts gave me a vocabulary, the arts gave me the empowered me to then start shaping who I wanted to be. You know? Just for example, we we started scene studies and stuff, and we're taking apart scenes and we're looking at, okay, this guy's a villain. And you realize, oh, wait a minute. This guy's the villain. He has attributes that similar to the ones I have. I don't like that. We have a hero, and he has attributes I like and I love and I would love to have. It then empowered me to start making changes in my life. You know, taking on attributes that I wanted to possess and let go of the ones I no longer wanted to possess. And that was power. Arts is a vehicle that can show a person who you can be and who you're capable of being. So for me it was like it it was I felt so empowered because I couldn't communicate effectively. But getting involved in the arts, I didn't learn how to communicate. I learned how to be an effective speaker. I learned how to get my point across. I learned how to talk to people that we have nothing in common. I've learned how to talk to people I don't like and have a civil conversation. And when your vocabulary is small, it's like when you have a vocabulary of maybe a hundred words, what do you do when the vocabulary runs out? It results to the violence, you know, and that's not that wasn't no longer an option. You know? So many men changed their lives participating with this program. Many men changed their lives based on being in the audience with this program, just learning about one another.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Because how is that? I remember you made a very powerful statement. You said that you used to be very introverted and that you didn't know how to talk to people and you didn't know how to read people and you didn't know how to read the room because you were always looking down. And what this theater program did for you is it gave you perception. It gave you the quality of perception. You were able to see the world through the eyes of an other. And that that has helped you not only it helped you not only survive in prison and flourish in prison, but it's helped you in your life afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Absolutely. I had no idea body language was a form of communication. I had no idea. And once you you learn body language, then you learn how to read a room, read a person, read, read what's going on, and and when you're in danger, when you're not in danger, when someone has their best interests at heart, you know, or your best interest at heart. You you could feel it, you could sense it. So the arts for me was like it was like getting in a tank and throwing it in high gear and riding to my life.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

You know, and it's so interesting because they take all these programs out of the schools because they think they're fluff programs and they're unnecessary and they're superfluous. But when you look at it from this perspective, when you see how divided everybody is and how myopic everybody is today in this country, you wonder if they weren't exposed to these, you know, these kinds of programs and this kind of insight and this kind of perception, if we wouldn't be more tolerant of one another and have more reciprocity.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Because whenever a budget falls short, art's is the first thing to go. Absolutely. And they don't realize it, but you know, exposing someone young to art is so rewarding, you know? And and I don't think they realize that, you know, they're just looking at numbers, and but we don't realize that that's somebody's life. I wish I was exposed to the arts at a younger age. I had no idea that I would find so much fulfillment in the arts.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Well, you seem to have brought that into your family because isn't your son an actor and a screenwriter?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yes, he is. And my son uh graduated from the school of Yale drama. Wow. And uh from ranking in Connecticut, yes. Wow. And um he's amazing. He's he's amazing. And we both started getting into the arts around the same time. I was in prison, he was in school, and we still started gravitating to art, and when he found out that I was actually acting and doing things of that nature, he was like, wow, and it built something that we could build on, and we we came much closer. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

And so you said to me that you had taken that you studied theater for 13 years. You were in prison, you were incarcerated for 15 years. Yes. And you said that for 13 out of the 15 years that you were studying theater.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yes. And uh I'm glad I did.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

You know, it's interesting because I'm ill-informed. You were amazed at how ill-informed I was this morning about about the prison system. And when we think about prisons, when we the great unwashed and huddled masses, think about prison, we think about the fact that it's violent and that it's you know, and that it's you know cutting off your humanity. And you explained to me this morning that there are education programs that you can get everything from your GED to your master's degree, that you can study theater, that you can learn all of these different and and and we just don't we don't see that, and we don't know that. So what is what is the environment like there?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

You know, it's it's you know, prison is a dangerous environment because you have the most dangerous men in the state confined there. However, it's a big university. It's a university where depending on what you want to learn, you can learn.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

And it is available to you, they make it available.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

It's available to you. Yes. If if you want to learn how to steal cars, you're gonna hang out in the yard with guys that that steal cars. And you wanna you want to learn how to lie, you hang out with the liars. If you want to be a philosopher, you hang out with philosophers. You want to be a jazz musician, you hang out with the band guys. If you know, so it's it's it's an amazing process, but you have to make a decision how you're gonna have this time serve you. And education became my thing. Education freed me, you know. So most of the guys that participated with rehabilitation through the arts all went on to college to either get their bachelor's degree or their master's, and you know, it's just we realized that education was needed, you know, and a lot of people from the outside would think, well, well, why why should we educate these men? Well, think about all these men are going to be coming home someday. They're coming home to your community. How would you like them to come home? Better or worse?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Well, see, now there's a misconception that I had because I didn't think that any rehabilitation was going on inside at all. I thought that they were just punishing you and that they let you out with no skills and no resources and and expected you to thrive in society. And I think for a long time that was the case because wasn't the recidivism rate before this program, wasn't the recidivism rate something like 60 or 65 percent?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

The national recidivism rate is 60 percent. Right. Uh for those that went through and took advantage of programs like rehabilitation out, it's three percent. Right. And I'm gonna be honest with you there is no rehabilitation going on inside unless it's something that you make an importance. So, in other words, you're not mandatory to make take these programs. You're not told, yo, you gotta do this, that no, you're not. So if you just want to hang out in the yard all day and work out and lift weights, that that's what you're gonna do. And there's no rehabilitation going on. And you have to make a clear decision in your mind that this is something I want to do. And you have to take advantage of those opportunities that's there.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

And the structure is available to you to do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

And you have structure, which I'm sure a lot of people don't have on the outside.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Absolutely. Presently in New York State, there is structure there, but unfortunately, um a lot of these programs that's offered in this particular hub, like the Sing Sing hub, are not always available further out in other facilities when you go as far as Dan Amora. They have basic vocational and they're teaching you horticulture. And, you know, what what is a guy from Brooklyn? How's he gonna use horticulture? Seeds. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So certain hubs are more progressive with college, with learning things that the actual kids from the inner city will actually utilize upon their release.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

So who funds these programs? Are these funded by the state and the federal government?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Uh most of them are f uh uh uh um privately funded, and some colleges have their own funding sources that are private that they invest in the in that's their way of giving back to the community by educating. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

There's a funny scene in the film, and if you haven't seen this film, you must see this film. Um, there's a funny scene in the film where you have to put on a performance for the people that are funding you.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah. Oh, that's a funny scene. Overall, the film, if you notice, there was no stereotypes in the film. Yeah, there was no politics in the film. Because a lot of people, when they visualize prison, they see a guy with a bandana on his head, in the yard, up to no good, doing this, doing that. And in reality, there's a lot of positive things that's going on. And we in the media we get stereotyped as these monsters. Monsters behind the wall. And the reality is we're human beings. You hear words like convict, inmate, and these are words that take away our humanity. We are humans. You have people that made some very bad mistakes, and you have some people that made a few mistakes, and you have some people that are uh, how should I say, wrongfully convicted that's in prison, that don't belong there. And we just gotta change how we how we how we see it. And that's one of the main things this movie is about. It's it's more or less ref a reflection of our human side, how we get through things, the resilience of human nature, and we and how we stay strong. Because the only way we were able to survive this was by coming together. And and loving each other. You know, and and right now, in this world we live in, one of the things that we have to learn how to do is love each other. No matter how different some of us are from each other, no matter how we may look or whatever, we have to start loving each other as people. And and it that starts by looking at each other's humanity instead of what you've been told about them.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, and I think that, you know, that's the most powerful thing that I took away from listening to you speak the night of the film, is that it gave you perception. Again, I don't mean to come back to this, but it gave you it gave you perception and it and it and it and it it it gave you the ability to look at the world through an other's eyes. And so rather than condemning people and rather than profiling people, and you've taken that and you've now you're now going into the other prisons. And I understand, do I understand correctly that you're working with, you know, the bloods and the cribs and and and all these divergent groups in the prison and showing them how to do that. I want to perform.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Gang members. I work with active gang members. I work with um at-risk youth. Period. All over. All five boroughs, all of Long Island. And I I try to teach life skills. Okay. I work with a non-for-profit organization that that's in schools, embedded in schools, and with curriculum, and teaching people how to put their lives together, how to have better relationships, whether it be with their family, better relationships with their teachers, and better relationships with people in general. Because sometimes we we forget a person's perception is shaped by their experience. So what we have to do is help them experience a different side. So they can see through other lenses other than the ones they're looking through. Because if your experience has been harsh, of course you're gonna look through harsh lenses at other people. But when you start experiencing other things, you're gonna realize a lot of the things that you were told were not true about other people. And you're gonna realize they're just like you. And uh this this amongst a lot of gang members, you know, they start realizing that they all want the same thing. Respect.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Well, and family too, isn't that a way to do it?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Respect and a sense of family, a belonging to something.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

And I would imagine also a sense of agency.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yes, because see, as human beings, we're tribal by nature. Okay? Did you go to college? Okay, when you went to college, did you pledge?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Why?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

So that I could be part of something.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Absolutely. But a kid that don't go to school, right? And he has no op opportunities for that. What is the opportunity for him to be a part of? Whatever's out there. And they want to become part of something is a sense of identity. And this is why I say no matter what your age is, we all want to be a part of something. I don't care if you're 10 years old, I don't care if you're 75, 80 years old. We all want to be a part of this community in some way or form. And sometimes we just have to expose our youth and our community to a better way of looking at each other.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

So, what kind of feedback are you getting from the programs that you're involved in outside? Do you think it's changing lives? Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Absolutely. It's changing lives. It's bringing hope to people that didn't see hope. It's bringing light to people that didn't see light. But more or less, I've wished it was more art. Well, isn't it that's a powerful vehicle?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah. But doesn't religion inside do the same thing? Say that again. Doesn't religion do the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Absolutely. For some people, yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Some people need that sense of uh uh regiment to just get their lives in in order, you know? Structure. It could be a religious structure, it could be educational structure. It's just that we we all need different things.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

So let's get back to the film itself, to making this film. I mean, again, that's up for three Academy Awards. Are you going to LA or are you gonna walk the red carpet?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Well, I just came back from LA walking several red carpets. Um it's it's been quite an experience for me. Um I'm learning so much, and I'm also broadening myself out more into the into the acting. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

So you must have been acting for a long time because I I saw the three films that you participated in, but when I was reading your bio, I saw that you were in a Mel Brooks film in 2000. Yes, yes, the producers.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I was one of the um, I was one of the prisoners of love. I see, yeah. In the scene where uh Matthew Broadwick and Nathan Lane go to prison. They actually supposedly goes to sing same. And um, yes, that was uh 2005, and also it's it it it I have been acting a while. I've been studying theater for a while, and I love it.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Obviously, you reek of it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

So let's talk about making the movie. I know that when you go to prison, that you go to downhill state or downhill prison, and that's where they process you.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

You probably get processed at a reception center, and then they send you off to the facility based on the amount of time you have to do, the type of education you're interested in, and stuff of that nature. Right. Now, when we made the movie, we shot the movie in uh three uh three uh facilities. Two two no re what's the word I'm looking for? Um they was no longer open. Downstate is no longer open. Right. Mid-orange is no longer open. And then we shot in a high school and then also um the sports center in up in Hudson Valley. And it was all of us was kind of it's emotional going back in a prison, whether it be still functioning or not, and putting those greens back on. They had someone on standby, you know, to have a talk with us, a psychologist, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Sure, because a lot of the guys must have gotten triggered. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

And um, just putting those greens back on, and it brought back so much. And when we did it was midsummer. The uh COVID just passed through. And it was 90 degrees out. 90 degrees. And we went back in there to film. Anybody knows anything about prison? The air is stagnant, there's no breeze going through there, nothing. And the sweat is really dripping down the walls. So it was bringing back so many memories just going back in there. And it could have been traumatizing, except for the fact that we realized that the story had to be told. We needed to tell the story because people needed to know more about this program that's saving lives, more about our story.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And it was told through the eyes of Clarence McCallan. He wrote the piece and he was interred at the same time that you were.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

He was his name is Clarence Macklin and Devine G. Whitfield. Yes. Those are the two main writers, along with Clint Bentley and Greg Quiddow.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And you were all in at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yes, we were all in prison around the same time, yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

So this was showing this from the perspective of the time when you were in there.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Right. And I'm a founding member. Uh Devine G, he's also a founding member as well. And we we was from the beginning of this program starting. But the movie is based on the relationship between Clarence and Devine G. Yeah. And Devine G is someone who was uh, I should say, wrongfully convicted that shouldn't have been in prison. So that's a powerful part of the movie as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Yeah, I don't know you how you keep your sanity about you because there's a scene in in the film where he goes up for parole. Yes. And they question him. And and you just you can agree.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

He found a tape that showed he was innocent. Yes. But they refused to let him out because the guy died.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

I mean the impotent rage that he must have experienced.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Two of our cast members were wrongfully convicted. Yes. JJ Vasquez and Devon G. Whitfield. JJ was exonerated just two months ago.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

After how many years?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

After 24 years. And Devon G, he's still fighting for his life back. So some people they eventually get it after they do all that time. They eventually then are found clear. And it's sad that we live in a a reality like that, that you know, we could have men spend most of their life in prison and don't even belong there.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

So well, I think it's very lovely and very generous that you're calling it sad rather than cruel.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

I I'll be honest with you. It is cruel. But it's sad that we as humans know that it's cruel and don't do nothing about it. That's what's sad.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

So what happens when you get out? What's that transition like?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

That transition is difficult depending on how depending on the person and individual and your preparation. Meaning, if you do not prepare yourself to get out, you're gonna have a hard time. When you get out, you're not gonna be ready. When you prepare yourself, your transition is much smoother.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Who's helping you to prepare yourself?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

That's the thing. You have to prepare yourself. You have to make the relationships work, you have to start the planning, also getting the education that you need to do whatever you plan on doing. One of the things that uh I told myself was if I'm gonna start my life out anew, I gotta figure out how to make my first dollar with these hands. These ten fingers. I have to be able to, if if you know, God forbid, if I don't have any, you know, way to to to do this, I would have to find a way, you know, if I've if I have no family left. You know, we have to think like this. You know, how are you gonna make a living? How are you gonna buy your first suit to go on your first interview?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Oh, so they don't provide you with any resources to make that transition? No.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

I'm gonna be honest with you. They'll give you a book and say transition all this and that, da da da, but half of those resources are 20, 30 years old, and half of them are different, the numbers change, it's not nobody's updating them. You know? Uh things are changing, the world is changing, people are changing. You have to be prepared to take advantage and seize that moment when them doors open. Meaning you have to start networking on the outside before you even get out. Me and myself, I had a job waiting for me as soon as I walked out the door. Okay, that was because of networking. Um it's just so much preparation involved, you know, getting an education and making a solid decision on what you want to do with your life. There's a lot of people that don't know what they want to do, and they get out and the doors open, and they're standing there and they're like, okay, what am I gonna do? You should have been thinking about that a long time ago. It's all about preparation, all about preparation, uh making good relationships, uh, connecting with people. You you can't do it by yourself. You cannot do that by yourself, and it's not something that you should wait to do upon release. But we didn't go into any of that in the movie or none of that stuff. What we did go into was just how we built the positive relationships with each other, and that's what was so important in that movie. The relationships, the brotherhood, men being vulnerable with each other. You know, that's something you don't see often in prison, but we created that within RTA.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

How different was it making the movie from the programs that you did, the the the theater that you did when you were inside?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Actually, the movie captures exactly what we did. Huh. Exactly. The the vulnerability that we shared with one another. That's all in the movie, and we created that same environment on the set because all of us knew each other for years, you know, and it was a blessing having Colin Domingo, Paul Racy, and Sean San Jose come in, and they just fell right into it. They they they blended perfectly with us, you know. Coleman Domingo, uh, he's a generous actor, a wonderful, generous actor. And when he came in, he came in and he's like, you guys are the experts. You know, I'm just going to come to where you guys at, and he could have came in as big bad Colin Domingo. He didn't. He came in human. It's like we loved him. He became one of the bros. Crazy. And and that that's what's so important. Sometimes we don't take the time out to uh allow our relationships to flourish because we become masters at destroying relationships in our life. And the key is when you when you make that change, you have to make that change in how you perceive people and how you deal with people. And you then now feeding this relationship is like a plant. What does a plant need to survive? Water, carbon dioxide, right? Soil. As humans, what do our relationships need? Trust, caring, affection, you know, all this thing, honesty, you know, and you learning how to create relationships and build them strong instead of destroying them. And the arts was was a a good vehicle to do that.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

So how did you end up inside? Because you have such wisdom and such clarity. What happened?

SPEAKER_00 37:42

You were in for I didn't have I didn't have such clarity and wisdom when I was younger.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

So what happened? You grew up in Queen. I was Queens?

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I grew I came up out of Queens.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Okay, I lived in two different communities in Queens. I grew up in Lefrack City, and then I I I lived in South Jamaica, Queens. Okay. Um I became a drug trafficker at a very young age.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Hard drugs? What kind of drugs?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Selling large quantities of drugs. I see. And taking them to different rural areas and making money. And that's what led me in prison for such a long time.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

But were you part of an organization? Were you on your own? Were you Yeah, as part of an I was part of an organization.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

And and the thing about it is you don't realize how much harm you do to the community until you really you sit in prison and you talk to people and you you listen to the stories of the different communities and what was going on and what happened in people's lives. And you realize, wow, I used to go to that neighborhood. I used to just this this day. And you start taking accountability and responsibility for the things you've done.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

You did before you were inside, or did you did you have that realization before?

SPEAKER_00 38:58

I had that realization while I was in prison.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

While you were in, but not before I was.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

When you make a change, it's not like overnight. It's a process. But the thing is this the the little the less that you change, right, the longer the process takes. It's like getting dressed. Would you get dressed in a nice outfit and not going to get in the shower? The change is not complete. Would you put on dress clothes and then put on tennis sneakers? No. The change is not complete. But you know, of course you're going to be comfortable. But I'm just saying it's like you have to change everything. I started changing uh little things about me, but I wasn't enough. It wasn't enough. And I still ended up in prison. And that's when I encourage young ones, you know, oh Mr. Dino, uh I I changed I changed my attitude. Did you really? Okay, you changed your attitude. Did you change how you deal with people? No. Did you change how you look at things? No. So how much did your attitude change? You you know what I mean? It has to be a complete change.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

But don't you think that that's a systemic issue too, that if these kids don't have families that and and or if their families aren't available because either they're not available or because they're working two and three and four jobs, and because the schools aren't providing them with what it is that they need, don't you think a lot of these kids are just left to their own devices and absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Absolutely. In a lot of ways, technology is is is is hurting our youth now too. Because um they're losing their ability to communicate. They're becoming introverted. Just just by and you know, I was introverted in a time when before the the technology was there, and I don't know how what it's like to be introverted and stuck inside that shell and not being able to communicate and explain to people what you what you want to do, how you feel. But now people are going back in that shell. They rather text than have a conversation and look you in the eye. I've I've see kids every day. I talk to them, they're like, yo, stop looking at me like that. Stop looking at me like that. No, why you why you looking at me like that? I'm like, I'm trying to communicate with you. You know, and it and it's like they're not used to it. They rather sit there and they're texting someone that's right there. And it's so much that could be hidden in that type of communication. Then I said, Well, you can't text and get a job, text them. You're gonna text the boss and tell him how much you want the job, or you're gonna sit there and have an interview and tell him and explain to him how you want it. And if you can't look at him, he's not gonna trust you. So what are you gonna do? We we gotta put it down sometimes and learn the basics. Go back to the basics.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

I mean, you could do that for society as a whole right now, not just for the at-risk community.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Yeah, we're getting so far away from the basics, it's it's getting pathetic.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Yes. But overall, I think I think the movie Sing Sing was a breath of fresh air to a lot of people that still under these preconceived notions that these monsters are living in a dungeon, you know, they're humans. We are all humans. We need to start treating each other like humans. We gotta stop calling each other names, we gotta start embracing each other, and we gotta start opening our community up and and not look at it as our community, but it's our yes, it's our community, not yours. You know, to say who belongs in it and who don't.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

And again, I reiterate that you could use that for society as a whole right now. Yes. With what's going on. So tell us some wonderful, fabulous, insane stories about the making of the movie and about the people that participated in it.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Uh, a lot of them uh 90% of the cast were formally incarcerated, um, uh rehabilit alumni of uh of rehabilitation through the arts. Um it was it was just It was a process of love. You know, it was like almost like a reunion, us coming together after so many years and sitting down and doing what we did for so many years. It was just it was so fun telling the story and and just being in front of the camera and doing what we do.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

That's great.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

And were there any issues? Were there any problems? Were there any glitches?

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Were there any none whatsoever. We shot that film in 18 days. 18 days we did it. Because that was the only amount of time that Coleman Domingo had.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

So we had to utilize him while he was available.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Interesting. So do you have any other projects on the horizon?

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Absolutely. I have two projects now. I'm not at liberty to talk about them, but I am working on some projects.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Wow, yeah. Yes. Is it already in production or you're not allowed to do it?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

I'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

You're not allowed to see it.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

It's in the works.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Okay. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

All right.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

So, and one more thing. So, how do you think you embody the uh the characteristics and the qualities of soft and savage?

SPEAKER_00 45:17

I like it. I like it because I think soft and savage is trying to do what a lot of us are trying to do. Help others see what they don't see. Help others feel what they don't feel. And sometimes that's how we can bring a community together.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Thank you so much. This has been a pleasure and an honor.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

And I'm delighted to have had this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Thank you for joining us on Soft and Savage. If you enjoyed our conversations, please subscribe and press like. And if you have any comments that you'd like to share with us, we would appreciate that.