Frontline Innovation: Entrepreneurship in Conflict & Humanitarian Response with Jesse Levin

In this episode of Soft + Savage, Jesse Levin takes us inside crisis, readiness, and the human architecture behind real-world response.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:25

So, Jesse Levin, the credo of Soft and Savage is that there are those that are faced with challenges and there are those that seek challenges, and you are clearly a seeker because since you graduated from Babson College, which is the number one undergraduate and graduate entrepreneurial business school in the world, you have been boots on the ground at natural and man-made disasters before the NGOs get there. You just spent you just finished spending two and a half years in the Ukraine. And you are now the executive director of DEF, which is the Defense Entrepreneurial Forum, which I want to get to in great detail, but you've got great stories to tell. So Jesse Levin, welcome to Soft and Savage.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Round two. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Round two. So you describe yourself as an expeditionary entrepreneur. And just if you can explain what it is that means through a number of the experiences that you've had, because you've done fascinating, fascinating things. And I don't think people understand an entrepreneurial lens used to solve situations in austere environments. So if you could regale us with some of the stories about some of the some of the Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So expeditionary entrepreneurship is something that we've been developing since Panama in 2007, 2008. And the idea is essentially taking an entrepreneurial toolkit and a lens, you know, looking at starting things in environments that are very resource-constrained and very competitive and getting them done irrespective of the challenges. And that happens to be very applicable in austere environments, in war zones, and humanitarian disasters. So we've paired military special operations veterans, folks in the intelligence community, uh people who specialize in humanitarian assistance and disaster response and emergency economic stability and created this capability that we call expeditionary entrepreneurship. And there's really two sides to it. One is domestically, um, you know, when you look at launching a startup, and we've done a lot in the world of brick and mortars, where we've, you know, tried to really creatively pair the national security community to the entrepreneurial community. Um and when you when you have to build uh capacity very quickly with not a lot of resources, it's the same exact approach you need to take when you drop into a disaster zone or a war zone and you don't know the culture or the language or the movers and shakers. The same way you kind of cultivate resources and build community is the same way you you would essentially ostensibly go about launching a startup. So both sides of the coin is in the States, we've done that a lot uh with with brick and mortar is anything from bars and climbing gyms and co-working spaces um to you know sending specialized teams into Haiti, the Philippines, uh, Ukraine, Panama, uh you name it, to do, you know, really rapid uh capacity building and emergency economic stability and humanitarian assistance and disaster response work.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

So give us some examples. Tell us about what was the first one, Panama?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, we really learned, you know, we kind of formed the thesis in Panama. Um 2007, 2008, there's still a lot. It was a lot more of a Wild West environment. Uh there was a lot in parts of the country, uh, there was a lot more drug running uh and activity going on back then uh in an area called uh Varaguas, Coca Norte, Costa Arriba, Costa Abraho. Um there was mining activity, there was foreign direct investment, and there's obviously a lot of contested perspectives and objectives between those groups. And we got involved and were basically in a way trying to keep people from killing each other while allowing everyone to kind of go about their own respective business. And during that time, there was a lot of flooding in the area. Um and you know, there wasn't really any infrastructure where we were working, there was no roads, there was there was no electricity, there was no cellular phone coverage. Um there's these really these indigenous villages where you had the FARC who were running narcotics, you had a group called the tumbadores who were out of Cologne, who were basically Panamanian uh I don't call them mafia, but gangsters who would go about stealing the drugs that the FAT would use and stash along the coastline with all the farmers and subsistence villagers. Um, and then you had one anti-narcotics maritime police unit that would patrol something akin to 200 nautical miles of coastline with no radar, no radar radios or anything to that effect. Um and when there was a huge amount of flooding, we realized that no one really had the capability and capacity to do anything. These villagers were slammed in these riverhead villages, they couldn't get their boats out through the waves. And so we said, okay, well, if we go and we we you know pay for fuel for the Marine Police Unit, will you guys give us a ride and help us get to these villages? And they said, sure. Um and it was actually a really interesting time because irrespective, and this will sound very weird to most people, but when there's an emergency, it's actually a great opportunity to build collective community and capacity. And irrespective of differing norms or warring factions, a lot of times people just come together because they want to help. And I know that sounds insane, but there were folks who were, you know, previous members of Vodak. There were, you know, all kinds of people running around that close line who just chipped in to say, hey, let's get this done, let's help this help these people. And so we realized that A, you can work with the institution and provide, you know, funding for fuel to what is obstensibly a national asset or a government asset. And you can go to the Red Cross depot and say, hey, we're doing this thing, we need stuff, and they'll be like, sure, I'll take stuff. Um and so you you can take unconventional private capital, utilize uh, you know, NGO slash government resources, and pair it all together very informally and very on the spot without any kind of contracting uh means whatsoever, just execute. And then when folks come together and they get to work in that capacity, they understand that they're just everyone's human and they kind of you know have this more familiar, friendly rapport, which will carry back over into everyday life once the emergency is over.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Huh. So tell the story about, because didn't you use, didn't you have the the the drug runner's boat that that FARC were were using to help you bring supplies in at one point? I know that you took cows out, which sounded very, very strange, but you were also using the the drug runners' boats to Well, it wasn't the no no.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

We were using the uh we teamed up with the the uh anti-narcotics police unit who had, you know, I don't know where they got that boat. Um it definitely looked very indicative of of a boat used for nefarious activities. Um but yeah, we were riding with them and we were just running uh relief operations, bringing supplies in, bringing sick people out. And a lot of times, you know, you mentioned the cow story in these incidences there's a lot of these really deeply ingrained SOPs where these large organizations standard operating procedures where, you know, the idea to help, you know, we need to flood an area with water or food or clothes or what have you. And there's always, you know, in these large-scale disasters, which this wasn't one, a very large-scale disaster, but you know, Haiti, the Philippines, there's these massive depots at these airports that fill up with stuff that's completely useless uh and doesn't get anywhere. Uh and oftentimes what people really need is not part of the conversation. And we actually, the the flooding was prolonged, and people's they were not only subsistence fishermen, but they were cattle farmers. And their cattle were getting stuck in various parts of the coast where they they couldn't get access to it. So they asked us to help them move the cattle as part of like a critical emergency you know operation, which we were happy to do. So we were hog tying cattle and throwing them in the boat and and moving around. Uh and that's where we we learned about alternative currency, right? It's not just you know money or things that people need. Oftentimes you have to really understand the cultural nuances to figure out what's uh impactful.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

And you know, you talked about you made mention of the fact that there uh oftentimes that all of the supplies that the NGOs bring in are brought to the ports, but they can't get them what you call last mile. And that really is your strategic brilliance, is getting things the last the last mile.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah, I mean there's there's you know, it's not this is not like an esoteric concept. Like there's there's a huge uh logistical bottleneck that typically occurs where we're great, you know, the the traditional aid institutions writ large are great at getting things to a point. Uh and then, you know, yeah, quote unquote last mile, getting from the airport or the port to the population in need always proves to be far more difficult for any number of reasons. Um but even more than you know, trying to solve that problem, you know, our approach has always been identifying and supporting hyperlocal capacity uh to kind of eradicate or decrease the need and of dependence on that external relief because that's more palliative in nature. And you know, when there's a big event, a lot of times like life-saving aid is just needed. There's an acute period where you just need people to help and food and water and shelter. But very quickly that transitions into kind of more of a recovery uh you know period. And the sooner you can get the local ecosystem, whether it's economic or otherwise, uh bolstered and up and running to solve their own challenges, you decrease that need on external aid and you also decrease the ability for malign actors to come in and take advantage of the situation, which is um, you know, if you read any of like Naomi Klein's work, um, you know, the shock doctrine, there's no question that disaster capitalism is very much alive and well. Uh, and uh our adversaries uh take advantage of these types of situations to build rapport uh and to gain entry into, you know, from an influence perspective, into these various jurisdictions.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

You have a great story about building native capacity when you went into Puerto Rico. Was it after a hurricane?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Uh Puerto Rico's 2017, Hurricane Maria. Um yeah, you know, I was invited down there. My my buddy uh Steve, who's kind of uh someone I do all the communications work with, um, was down there, actually went down before the storm and said, Hey, you know, right after the storm hit, he called me and said, You need to get down here, there's just gonna be a lot to do. So went down and uh met up with Steve, and we're just kind of kicking around for a day or two. And the first thing that we always try to do when we hit the ground is to figure out what's actually going on, right? And Puerto Rico is interesting because it was more emblematic of an international response, but because Puerto Rico is a U.S. protectorate, it fell under the auspices of FEMA. FEMA is not necessarily designed to handle more of international environments, and there's also a tremendous amount of misconception as to what FEMA can do and what they're designed to do. You know, FEMA in essence is really a funding uh an advisory agency to get behind local government resources and assets, and the only real direct action that they do is search and rescue. So you have these populations that are sitting and waiting for you know to be saved by FEMA, but FEMA can only be as effective as the local government. And so if the local government does not have the assets or resources, they're really handicapped. And more detrimental to that is a misunderstanding of the you know the populace of what FEMA is designed to do. So you've got these people waiting for help that simply isn't coming. Um and what was happening in in Puerto Rico was the traditional aid ecosystem, and again, this is not to belittle or to to naysay or any of this, but you know, there was this perception that there's a huge lack of food and water, which in some cases was true. So, you know, you've got to remember the island was destroyed, the roads were destroyed, ports were really damaged. So getting anything off island, onto island, and then out to the damaged areas is incredibly difficult and costly. And a lot of the effort and resources were being directed to bringing in huge container ships full of pallet, you know, palletized water and MREs, which are meals ready to eat, which if anybody who knows or has eaten those, no one wants them. Um and you eat those for two days and you know, you get a whole different type of emergency on your hands. Um so we went out and you know, we basically had come to understand very quickly that in the very remote areas, uh, we put a pin on the map, drove into the most remote area we could get to, had a chainsaw, you know, whatever, and went out on the Jeep and started talking to these local uh owners of what are called pantarias, which are these local supermarkets. And they had all known the storm was coming, they had stocked up on a tremendous amount of food and water, they had generator, they had gas, and they are, of course, doing what they could to help their communities for a period. But you know, if you if there's no commerce and there's no way to kind of bring in money and you can't pay your people, like that starts to break down very quickly. And the real issue was like not necessarily a lack of food and water as an example. Like if you had sent out a couple hydraulic engineers and welders, you could have fixed these pump houses and pipelines that would have taken care of entire municipalities, right, as opposed to having to ship in trucks full truck fulls of water and bottled water, which is a huge waste issue. And on top of that, a huge percentage, I don't remember the number anymore, of the people of Puerto Rico depend on EBT or electronic benefits transfer or food stamps. And if there's no power, there's no communications, and if there's no communications, there's no point of sale. So you couldn't run the cards to actually facilitate any kind of purchasing or selling. So the merchants were trying to support their communities, but they could no longer sell anything. They couldn't really buy anything, and they couldn't pay their people, and that was a really detrimental, acute food security breakdown and economic emergency. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

And the FEMA trucks are parched right next to the bodegas.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

So in some instances, yes. And they would say, Hey, can you please like stop doing this? We're trying to like solve our own problem, and we've got the food. You know, this is just this is this is problematic. And so we we cultivated relationships, and you know, Steve had been down there and he's great at networking, Steve Birenbaum, and you know, we had a relationship with the CIO and CTO of Puerto Rico. Uh and if you you know you it's amazing when you walk into these environments. Like FEMA has what's called a joint field JF JFO acronyms, like the joint field operating office, which is this huge thing they set up and they bring in tons of people and it's this logistically complex operation where you have what are called ESFs, which deal with like ESF um they're clusters and they deal with communications and sanitation and all these different things. And so you've got this like war room of people, and you know, we because we were firefighters and because we knew someone, we could just walk in and and you know, we had realized that the real issue was not necessarily food and water, but it was connectivity. And if we could restore connectivity, we could restore economic commerce and we could restore, you know, solve the food security issue using local resources while reinvigorating the local economy and decreasing the need for external supply. And everyone's like, yeah, it's a great idea. Like, let's do that. That's that's amazing. That makes so much sense. But you, you know, no one could fund it, you couldn't move it quick enough because it's government and it's slow, and again, that's not a knock, that's just a reality. And so, you know, we swiped $30,000 on the credit card and we met these guys that have this very simple, cheap satellite uh, you know, these terminals which are really you know not sophisticated. Uh and we went around and we found we worked with the Department of Family Services who had all of the data for EBT transactions throughout the island who could say, hey, you need to, these are like the most prominent areas of the heaviest usage. And we went and you know, if these owners had a generator and had real food and supply, we'd connect them, uh, put the satellite terminal on their roof, and then they're up and running. And within, you know, we spent 30,000 bucks and then, you know, DHS and FEMA helped us fly around, they give us air support. Without them, we couldn't have done it as effectively. So it was a collaborative effort. Um, and within a couple months, millions of dollars of transactions had gone through the system, which we just paid for. And, you know, thank God a local uh foundation um I don't remember the name of it, but they they reimbursed us and said, hey, like you know, they they they focus on economic solvency and economic empowerment in Puerto Rico, so it was within their mission. So they they wrote us a check and paid me back for the 30,000 bucks, so broke even on that one. And uh yeah, it was a it was a great use case.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

And Haiti?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Haiti in what sense we want to know about Haiti.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Well in Haiti, I think that you know you you were able to bridge the cultural divide with a sense of humor. And and you were also able to to because you didn't have to, you know, you didn't have you weren't part of a bureaucracy and you didn't have the kinds of constraints that the bureaucracies have, you were able to do things, for instance, take the trucks in out at night and and sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah. Yeah, Haiti um 2010 Haiti earthquake was right after I had left Port uh Panama um and went down there just to volunteer for search and rescue, ended up working with a joint Latin American task force for about a week, um just doing initial, you know, looking looking for folks, um, and then realized that that that game was kind of over, right? At that point, you're you're doing body recovery, you're not, you know, you're not um and someone I think it was actually um my dad's ex-wife said, Hey, I there's this guy, his family is from Stanford, here's his number, call the SAT phone. And so I look literally walked with my bag from this this site we were living at, the search and rescue operation up in Petchenville, and called this dude and said, Hey man, like someone said to call you. Uh, I'm here, you know. If I can be helpful, like I'm happy to help. And he's like, Yeah, okay, I'll be there in 20 minutes. Uh and Mike Stewart pulled up uh with Skylar in a flatbed truck, and um, you know, a year and a half went by. And he was in-country director for a tiny little NGO called Hope for Haiti, um, which you know had been there forever. Um, and you know, it's a small little operation, but it's it was like a 99% Haitian team, so it spoke the language, they understood how to move and operate. And you had all these larger NGOs down there who had the security posturing, you know, regulations where they couldn't go out after night because it was dangerous, this, that, and the other thing. And because we were small and tiny, and you know, there wasn't really a whole lot of bureaucracy, and you know, we knew the the environment, uh, we could we couldn't do things as you know were necessary to get it done. So that included driving around at night, and that included um understanding where like the real needs and areas that were impacted were. And and um you know, like there's these instances of like these incredibly sophisticated field hospitals built in like these soccer stadiums that like the Haitians couldn't even get into because they're Haitian and they had to be accompanied by like a it was the most bizarre thing. Um you know, it was a really interesting learning experience, and I learned a lot about the disaster response world and logistics from Mikey, uh Mike Stewart, who I've worked with now in various capacities for the past, you know, over a decade. Uh we're still working together on the Defense Entrepreneurs Forum. Um and then you mentioned humor. I think one of the most you know important things I learned down there is a lot of folks will walk around in these environments, you know, whether it's a war zone or a disaster zone, posturing as a form of security. So they'll you know they'll walk around like this, like looking really like ominous and scary and you know, to kind of give keep people give them a wide berth. But our approach is always more like, you know, put the hat on backwards, have a smile, like try to speak the language. And for the most part, in most parts of the world, and there's certainly exceptions, right? This is not to be naive, uh, people are friendly and and don't wish you harm, right? And it's not to say you can like go walk around uh, you know, see uh not City Soleil. Uh see, that's so bad I'm getting my countries mixed up. But there's like you know areas you can't go, and you know, you have to be cognizant. But oftentimes humor and empathy and like the ability to resonate with people um will get you really far. Like I'll never forget Skyler, uh, who was running Hope for Haiti. I think he's still running Hope for Haiti now. We were somewhere and he you know he spoke Creole really well, and he started like there's a gazillion kids around the truck, and he started singing the song, which was like basically like some like Creel really you know, not perverted, but like risky song, and all the kids are just laughing and thought it was hysterical. And everyone loved it. And there was one time when uh I was out at some point in like a d water drop, and you know, I was down in Carfu, which is Carfort, which is by the port, and the truck got surrounded and everyone's climbing up on the truck and shaking it and like trying to get into the cab. And obstinately that could be like a pretty nerve-wracking, dangerous situation. But on the other sense, like a worst case scenario, you keep the windows, the doors you know, closed and they steal stuff out of the back. That's still a form of distribution. But I rolled down the window and I had this, I always traveled with this like duck, this stuffed animal quacking duck. And you know, I didn't speak of any Creole, I'm not not that I never learned Creole, but I learned a couple of words, and you know, I was like, you know, I was like, go moyezami, like the kid that stood up next to the door and I took this duck out and went quack, quack, quack, because it like it quacked. And he looked at me like, who the heck is this like white dude driving this truck in the middle of like this dump of an area with a quacking duck and like it just neutralized the whole situation. Everyone thought it was hysterical. And you know, you just go from like terse and and you know confrontational to like, high five, what's up? Like uh and you can switch that, you know, you can you can flip that switch very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

So talk about switching uh of flipping the switch. Next you went to the Ukraine, which was not a disaster zone, it's a war zone, and you had a reputation of being small but mighty because of everything that you got accomplished there.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

So uh yeah, there's a lot happening between you know uh Haiti and Ukraine. Ukraine was, you know, Haiti was 2000, well, first time in Haiti was 2010, but Ukraine was the last major thing we we did.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Um and we as tactivate.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

As Tactivate, correct.

unknown 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Like anything else, you know, we didn't we don't look to contract, we just show up and you know, we see what we can do. And I had a a great buddy who was a firefighter, I have a local firefighter that I worked with uh who In Connecticut. In Connecticut, who's Ukrainian. Um and I had uh another good friend through a veteran-centric incubator I'd been a part of, who was a sergeant major, who had served in Ukraine for a number of years, um, and basically like literally hitchhiked over the border from Poland into Ukraine a couple after you know it was a couple days after February 22nd when it when the kinetic activity you know restarted, because this has been going on since 2014. Um and very surreal. It was like, you know, the first the first couple of weeks was like pretty mad maxi. Um and you know, didn't speak any, didn't speak the language. I got in the back of this old Ukrainian dude's car, and then our buddy, this guy, the cousin of my firefighter friend, said, Yeah, I'll pick you up at the border. I had no idea. I didn't know if my phone was gonna work, but he had sent me a pin. And so we get like, you know, five minutes past the border, and I like I just point to the guy who's driving a pullover, and he's like, pull over? Like, okay. And he's like, Yeah, we're gonna get out. And we got out, and I was like, Well, I don't see the guy here, like shit. Like, what are we what are we doing? And all of a sudden this this Tesla pulls up. I've never been in a Tesla. And here I am in Ukraine, and it's like, it's like, you know, there's a million people getting trying to get out of the country, and we're going the other way, so there's nobody coming in. And there is uh this guy Julian, pulls up in a Tesla. Um, and you know, he turns up to be like the being this crazy entrepreneur in in uh in in Ukraine, and he like takes us under his wing for the first couple days, and you know, we we drive around with him, and then he takes me to this place in Lviv, which is very far west in Ukraine. Um, and uh we meet another guy uh who was friends with Sergio, who was had working who had served in the Army in Ukraine. And he turns out that this guy is just a monster of a logistician, has a logistics company that had worked with the DOD. Uh so we were able very early on to establish uh a logistical and operational footprint with cross border capabilities and and and vehicles. Uh and initially we were just helping uh place there's certain types of folks that had the right kind kind of skills uh that because of our connections, we were we were connected with the MOD and in various you know components of MOD uh Ministry of Defense and and Um Gur and these various uh groups, the intelligence groups within Ukraine, and we were able to help place uh folks from the US with a certain set of skills to help them advise uh and to do those kind of things early on, and we were just running you know basic stuff, medical kits and tourniquets, it wasn't anything uh really all that sophisticated. Uh and then as we were leaving, we got asked uh, because we've been there for about a month or a month and a half or something like that, and that's as like really as long as we can stain things. Um, we got asked to uh end up supporting this international company that happened to own uh a lot of local Ukrainian businesses uh to do uh what amounted eventually to you know a lot of emergency economic stability operations and you know trauma, developed a whole trauma training uh program for staff and were responsible for 5,000 people. And it was a very interesting pairing of private capital in support of humanitarian and more kinetic operations, which would have typically fallen under the auspices of State Department or DOD. Uh that's what was really interesting about Ukraine was the society the societal dynamic of it was a true whole of society response that people don't really talk about. Like everyone's really focused on drones and tech and electronic warfare, which is all important. But what's really missed uh in in our opinion, and what's really like the most critical competitive advantage in the strategic aspect of this that we should be studying is what is it about Ukrainian society uh that enabled them to again flip the switch and really activate out of necessity to sustain and repel a far more resource and larger adversary, right? Um I mean it was a true no-kidding, I don't care who you were, a babushka, entrepreneur, uh whatever kind of company, everyone is active in supporting the war effort. And this has nothing to do with like a you know geopolitical or political perspective or whether we should be there or not, whether we should be supporting or not, like humans are humans, and there's always gonna be conflict. And we really were interested in staying because we wanted to study that, right? We wanted to see, you know, we wanted to help out obviously, but it was very interesting to watch uh how society congealed and what kind of capabilities and capacity uh came to be uh in regards to how they develop their drone technology in 24-hour cycles and you know, uh a lot of those things, there's nuances behind that that are worth studying, uh not just from a hardware perspective, but from a societal construct perspective.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Aaron Powell And it seems like you've brought that back to your position as the executive director of DEF and that you want to study that and implement that here in the United States through that entrepreneurial community. Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

So DEF or the Defense Entrepreneurs Forum is something I've been involved with for a very long time since it started. It's been around for 11 years. Um and it was started by an F-18 pilot and a Navy SEAL. Uh and they wrote a white paper that was basically the premise was um, you know, we weren't doing a very good job back then of of identifying and empowering innovation from within the branches, within the forces, let alone from outside. And now, 10 years later, the ecosystem has very much evolved, and there's a lot in the world of innovation that's happening in national security and these programs of record, and these these a lot there's a lot going on to work to ameliorate that that deficit. Um deaf has evolved, but what it's what's really become is because it's been around for so long, there's now very senior uh folks who are involved, um, you know, flag officers and general officers, which are kind of very senior folks in the military, and there's entrepreneurs and technologists and NGO folks and academics and tinkerers. Like it's a very eclectic group. It's incredibly loosely organized. And you ask any two people that are involved with deaf what it is and what it means to them, they're gonna give you like diametrically opposed answers, which is great because it's a, you know, they make it what they need it to be. Uh it's referred to as the virtuous insurgency, uh, and it isn't all volunteer NGO. Uh and the the net, net, net is like, you know, we we view informal networks as a strategic weapon system. So, you know, while there's bureaucracy uh and you know, we've we've honed our national security apparatus to thrive and be very successful in and AO's area areas of operation like Iraq and Afghanistan, the geopolitical realities of today and the areas of operation which we're we're potentially going to be get getting involved with are very different. And our systems are uh anathema to the realities of the day, to include technology adoption, procurement, um, and you know, there's a lot going on to improve and to tackle that. Uh but in the meantime, we're engaged in real real world uh you know activity. And what's been labeled as gray, gray zone or gray area operations, um, you know, refers to like you know, malign influence, cyber operations, miss and disinformation, economic coercion, logistical supply chain arbitrage, there's a lot that's happening that's considered gray or almost falls under the banner of irregular warfare, which bifurcates it from the common conversation uh and makes it this like almost nebulous esoteric thing when in point of fact, like that is the current war. That is, you know, if you ask a lot of people to say, yeah, well, we've been engaged in World War III for a number of years. And I'm not a fan of that lens because when you look at things uh from a, you know, from through like we're actually engaged in kinetic in a warfare, which I think we are in a lot of ways, that puts us in a posture where our only reaction is escalatory. Like if we come at it from a a competitive, you know, we are engaged in war perspective, that's going to very much uh put linear parameters on how we respond, as opposed to like realizing and identifying and celebrating the fact that this is just evolved reality of the geopolitical landscape, and our adversaries are going to very much leverage our weaknesses. Like we, we, we, we had our blinders on for 20 plus years in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we didn't develop cognitive infrastructure or a really robust information, you know, IW or counter information warfare capability and capacity. Not to say we're not doing it and trying, but we really are, quite frankly, behind the eight-ball. And the most frightening uh and I think the most disadvantageous element of that notion today is that our true asset, and what I think our adversaries are most afraid of, is democracy, right? Is creativity, is the entrepreneurial capability and capacity of the American people. And when we launched, started the Global War on Terror, like there's literally a quote that says, you know, what can the American populace do? And they were told quite literally to go shopping. They said, you you can support the war affair by going shopping, which created this like monstrous decoupling of society's proximity to national security realities, which had incredibly detrimental effects, not only for like our relationship with veterans, uh, but we really removed the general populace from the realities of of what's going on geopolitically and the nature of warfare. And today we're doing the same thing where we're this is almost as patronizing, uh you know, to use your frame, you you your words a lot, you you know, you say a patriarchal, patronizing dynamic authority. Or like the DOD. I don't think like intentionally, like they want to protect the U.S. the American people. And you know, the Defense Entrepreneurs Forum is a really interesting uh counterbalance to that, in that it's a a point of entry uh for folks who don't know they even necessarily have a role to play or that they really want to get involved uh but don't know how. And so that's it's a point of entry that's very welcoming. Uh and the rank doesn't matter, experience doesn't necessarily matter, as long as you have a positive attitude uh and you're willing to disrupt the status quo, you're you're more or less welcome to to kind of join the ranks and join the organization. And what we're kind of combating is so much of the current effort, um, which again is important, but is so focused on hardware and software and technology and AI and compute, which is again all very, very important and necessary, but there's a there's just the minimus resources and attention being paid to the human element, right? And we would argue, or I would argue, I can't speak for the organization on this part, that the American civilian, everyday person, you are are the the war fighter on the front line because you are being manipulated by missing disinformation on a daily basis and don't have the s the skills or the perspective to to acknowledge or identify that or to cope with that effectively. Um, you know, we are we are in these trade wars, which are, you know, a very real uh, you know, reality that affects everyday life. Like business, small business owners, teachers, the the healthcare system, everything is is is being consciously manipulated by our adversaries in in ways that are so much more sophisticated and nuanced than than the general populace realizes. And we're not having an honest conversation with the public. And you know, what excites me about Deaf is that it's a human-focused and human-centered and community-centered organization, right? Like we, I think, have the capacity and the ability to help remedy that that disconnect and to change the conversation uh around um getting people more involved in the national security ecosystem, not because you know, we need to go to war and, you know, this, that, and the other thing, but because, you know, the the capability and capacity to be of service was always a fundamental facet of American society, and we've lost that. That doesn't mean we need to like be prepared to go to war, but it means like people need to have a vested interest and be involved and be capable of contributing. You know, I think one of the reasons why, you know, I I recommend mandatory travel is because I don't know what percentage of the U.S. population uh doesn't have a passport, but it's significant. And as a result, you know, kids growing up do not have an appreciation for other cultures. So it's much easier for us to weaponize or to vilify others, right? So as opposed to these kids going to Mexico or they're Tyler, Philippines, Picky, or Chile, you know, we can we can very easily manipulate the narrative and say, these are others, they're they're enemies, they're what have you. And anybody who travels, for the most part, I made this comment earlier, like people are amazing and they're welcoming. And irrespective of like our misguided foreign policy, and you know, people are willing to look past government action and to accept people on a, on a on a per person-to-person level. Uh, and and so in that way, like when when if we could get kids out of the US and get them exposure uh to other cultures, it's very likely that they will just have a far more empathetic, uh, appreciative perspective of life. And as they grow grow older and take positions of power, we'll look at things very differently and have just more of an appreciation and a celebration for the other versus viewing the other as an enemy. These others are my are my good buddies, and just because they speak a different language or like that doesn't mean I can go and manipulate and and take advantage of them. Uh and so I think that's you know, you know, one reason. And the and the other part of it is, you know, just getting kids out and exposed to a different set of skills uh uh it will change their perspective, whether that's the trades or, you know, again, firefighting or EMS. Like, you know, we have to stop. We've for a very long time, we've celebrated uh softer financial sector as the you know, end-all be all. We we we celebrate things that are odd, you know, as what people want to reach to be YouTube stars and sports players, like great, God bless, but you know, we should be celebrating like you know, scientists and teachers and first responders and and you know law enforcement and and you know military personnel as the epitome of of selflessness and you know what it means to be an American, you know, the capability to be useful, um, not just to generate wealth, but to you know to generate you know material impact for for others. And I think you know a lot of folks would argue that the U.S. has lost its North Star. There's no one, there's nothing really calling people to service. People don't know what to really rally behind.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Um, well, and I think people have also been convinced that they don't have agency.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

So those are things that we experiment with um you know at Deaf and are actively working on addressing.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

So what does it look like five years from now? What's the best possible case scenario and what's your what's your most frightening scenario?

SPEAKER_00 33:14

You know, if you if you put me in charge for for a day, I would I would um actually just wrote about this this morning. I would uh mandate and subsidize mandatory international travel for every American citizen between the age of 16 and 18. And I would require every high schooler to become uh to uh obtain an EMTB uh certification and a Firefighter One certification and serve for a year domestically. And I think that would uh help to bridge uh the socioeconomic and cultural divisiveness that we're experiencing here. I think that would change people's perspective and lens, that would give them agency, um, and that would help, you know, it would help to provide a sense of uh a reality check. Uh, because you when you work in those fields, your perspective and baseline shifts and you become far less reactionary and you you become more proactive and calm and and and excited to be counted on to be a helper. So that's a you know, I think you know, we need to focus far more on creative ways in the behavioral sciences arena to how to get an innovate around models to re-engage and activate civil society and you know, using the mechanisms that are in place, i.e., volunteer fire departments and EMS departments that exist, how can we make the capability and capacity to be of service attractive and sexy and cool and and and almost as an expected, right, uh to be a a standing member, an upstanding member of society.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

And I think it would also assuage a lot of fear. I think that that we're living in a very fear-based society because people, you know, as you have always suggested, you know, it doesn't matter if you've got the guns and you've got the food and you've got the water, you have to know how to do things and you have to know the people in your community that are capable of doing the kinds of things that need to get done in an emergency situation, and that that's not what we have going on.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

You know, it's funny to watch, like I don't I wouldn't consider myself a prepper, but we've done a lot in the readiness space. And the way that Americans, you know, generally speaking, view pro preparedness is like I'm gonna buy a bunch of food and I'm gonna stockpile ammunition and I'm gonna hide in my basement and I need a bunker and I'm gonna isolate. It's like it's not how the world works. Like anybody who's you know served or has been in, you know, and that's not to say, you know, you don't need to be prepared. Like I'm not saying don't have supplies, but the mindset of like isolation versus leaning forward and being involved and building community and surrounding yourself with complementary, you know, skill sets is imperative because nothing happens in isolation. And I forget the guy's uh name. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Who wrote the book? Yeah, he wrote the book, Emergency. Um, social um when you know when you when you I forget what it's called, like social engineer dating, I forget. But anyway, he wrote a book and the premise at first was he was terrified and did all these exercises of like how long can I turn the power off of my house and live? And I bought the composting toilet and I got MREs and I took shooting classes and he was preparing to be like, you know, this like Rambo dude. Um and by the end of the book, what he came to realize is like the safest and the most like you know secure he felt is by actually, as opposed to preparing to leave the system that he thought was out to get him, he became a part of that system, he became an EMT. I think he joined law enforcement uh and and it was like, oh, like these are my people, like oh, oh, community, oh that's what it is. It's not about isolation, it's about joining and leaning in. So we have to really change the narrative uh because you know, this this current state is a very we versus they, you know, isolation versus collective uh paradigm, which is uh you know just counter to the way the world actually works and what what will be uh effective. And you know, not to be a doomsday or guy, but like you know, the likelihood of something material happening because everyone who's in the industry or in the national security arena, you know our adversaries have our adversaries have been in our systems for forever, for 15 years, 20 years. Like they are in our power grids, they are in our water systems, they are like, you know, it's not that we're vulnerable and it's coming, it's they're deeply, deeply, deeply entrenched and ingrained. And all they have to do is flip a switch, right? And and and it's you know, they're not gonna invade the U.S. Like they're not gonna drop a bomb on us mostly, they're not coming with tanks, but it's gonna be economic, it's gonna be cyber, and you know, because we're so divisive domestically, it won't take a lot to get us to to you know turn against one another. And anybody who's gone to a Home Depot after like Hurricane Sandy two days after and watched the fist fights in the parking lot over the last generator, like you know, we're not accustomed to, you know, when I was in Puerto Rico, there's some parts of the island where people didn't have power for six months and they were sitting on their stoop drinking beer, laughing, they had figured out how to take their car battery and like backfill their panel to power their house. Like, we don't have that culture here. Like we're, you know, we're so used to being comfortable and we've become very complacent and we've become very entitled. Uh so you know, when we experience those disruptions, it's far more jarring and we automatically revert to like me, me, me, I, I, my own versus, okay, this is time to like to go out and take care of the community. Uh and that will, if we don't shift that, that will be a tremendous chink in our armor.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Well, all I can say is that I'm glad that someone with your experience and your mindset and your eloquence is turning, changing the paradigm and getting getting the social fabric involved and protecting our country and ourselves. So, Jesse Levin, thank you so very much. Thank you for having me. If you liked our show today, please like and subscribe. And thank you very much for joining us on Soft and Savage.