Can architecture restore human connection in emotionally abandoned cities? — Adam Bamba Tanaka

In this episode of Soft + Savage, Adam Tanaka reframes wellness as civic infrastructure — and asks what our cities should be designed to restore.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Adam Bumba, Tanaka, okay. You are the COO of Therma, which is a global company that is revolutionizing the ancient practice of thermal bathing. But before we get into Therma, um tell us a little bit about you. I know that you have a uh PhD in urban planning from Harvard, but tell us more about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Well, it's it's so fun to be here. I mean, really the story of my adult life and really much of my adolescence has just been a love of cities and a love of what makes cities tick and what makes cities fun and exciting and inclusive. And that's what led me in my early 20s, basically straight out of university to go into a PhD, um, really studying innovation in cities and large-scale urban revitalization. And I've always been interested in what are the kinds of uses that can bring people together in large numbers, but also serve as a vehicle for revitalizing urban areas. And, you know, from pretty early in my PhD, I realized I was actually more interested in building cities and being involved in planning cities than just writing about them and reading about them. Uh, I still love reading about them and I actually sometimes still write about them, but really my focus has shifted pretty emphatically towards you know, designing, dreaming, and building and building projects in cities. So when I completed my PhD uh in 2018, I went to work for a real estate and planning consulting company called HRNA that did a lot of work with city governments and developers and community groups and different kinds of uh institutions in in cities, and I absolutely adored that work. Uh, some of the projects that HRNA has been involved with include the Highline and Brooklyn Bridge Park, uh, as well as other projects around the country and even uh internationally. And uh funnily enough, in the depths of the pandemic, uh we were hired by Thermogroup to help them think about their US market entry. And I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about Thermogroup as we continue in the conversation. But that was really the first exposure to wellness and thermal bathing and this concept of you know large-scale accessible and inclusive wellness. Uh, and for me, it was actually a very funny coincidence because uh my um father's family is Japanese. Uh, I actually lived in Japan in my 20s, uh, and I grew up in the UK, but have a lot of family in Europe and in France and in Switzerland. So I had been actually to a lot of thermal bathing and hot springs uh, you know, establishments. Um, I wouldn't say growing up necessarily, but definitely in my 20s. Um, I, you know, when I lived in Japan, I visited Onsen and Sento and different bathhouses. For many years, my favorite film has been a film called Spirited Away, which is this amazing Japanese animated film all set in a bathhouse. Um, so when I figured out, oh my goodness, there's this way to kind of connect this family heritage and love of global wellness culture with my long-standing passion for cities and architecture and development, it just seemed like one of these matches made made in heaven. And so when Thirma made an offer to uh join them and help them, you know, launch this concept uh in the US, it was it was hard to say no.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

But it's not just a bathing facility. I mean, I've seen pictures of concepts and also execution. And essentially what you do is you drop this little utopia into an urban landscape. And it's not just about bathing. I mean, there's you're you're growing food and you're, you know, it's just it's it's it's an entire ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Absolutely. I mean, really the vision is about bringing blue and green spaces into the heart of cities and and urban areas. We call them wellness oases, wellness wonderlands, you know, wellness infrastructure, uh, you know, a word that we definitely do not use as a spa or or a water park because we're we're much more than that. When you walk into our facilities, really the experience is akin to being in a botanical garden. And as you may know, there's a lot of research about the therapeutic effects of being surrounded by greenery, as well as actually the therapeutic effects of looking at lakes and oceans and bodies of water. So um, a large part of the wellness experience is not the kind of active activity of getting into a pool or getting into a sauna, but the passive activity of being surrounded in a light-filled biophilic space, uh, and being able to do so without having to get on a plane or travel to some distant destination, but be able to actually do so, you know, in your own urban area, maybe only a 30-minute drive or even a walk from where you live. Um, and you know, the vast majority of our customers at our European facilities are our local residents, anywhere from 60 to 90% of the customers are our local residents. And most of those residents are coming on a repeat basis. So this is not a kind of once-in-a-lifetime, you know, destination experience, but really something more habitual. And in that respect, we're really drawing on, you know, centuries, you know, if not millennia, of human traditions of participating in these communal wellness activities, whether it's, you know, the ancient Roman baths uh in in you know, ancient Roman, not just Rome, but across the Roman Empire, or whether it's the Hamans in in the Middle East and North Africa, or the Yansen, you know, in Japan, there is this long heritage of really intentionally integrating large-scale wellness uh facilities into the heart of an urban area, uh pricing them accessibly or even making them free in some cases. Uh, and that's the tradition that we're really trying to bring back, but I would say reimagined with a focus on nature so that when you're in the building, you don't even really feel like you're in a building.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

So you were the one that coined the phrase for me, and I hadn't heard this in years and years and years of third space.

unknown 6:56

Correct?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Well, I certainly can't take credit for coining the phrase, but I'm glad that I shared the phrase.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

That's damn correct it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

So essentially, if you bring it into the current vernacular, that's what you're doing, is you're creating a third space.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, the idea of a third space or the concept, which I think is one that dates back to the 60s or or 70s, it's really the idea that, you know, the first place is the home, the second place is the workplace. Uh, and historically, there have been many, many, many third places, third spaces, I should say, in society, whether it's, you know, religious institutions or civic institutions, uh, you know, spaces like uh, you know, what labor unions offered to their members. Um, and you know, what we've observed, especially in Western and increasingly secular societies, is really an erosion of these kinds of third spaces, uh, especially for younger people. Um, and, you know, and also a commercialization of these spaces. Um, so I think, you know, we still have libraries, we still have schools, we still have parks, we still have museums, um, but they are, you know, either becoming fewer in number due to you know reduced public investment, or they're no longer really appealing, or how can I say, you know, actively engaging with contemporary society, perhaps in the way that they're used to. And that's why it's exciting to see, you know, libraries and museums starting to reinvent themselves, integrating more programming, integrating more digital technologies. Um, and so I think in that vein, you know, Therma really can be part of creating these third spaces. We are a ticket attraction, we are a commercial operation. You do have to pay to get in the door, but you don't have to pay very much. I mean, the current pricing we're contemplating for the US market would start around $50 for a ticket. If you go in Europe, actually, you know, that the facilities are even cheaper than that. Um, and you know, I would say the other thing that's really distinctive about Therma, and I think connects to this idea of a third place is the intergenerational aspect. And, you know, when you go inside our facilities, you will see everyone from age five to age 85. And if you go during the week in the mornings, it is heavily freighted towards seniors. We actually offer discounted pricing for seniors uh during the weekday mornings. If you go on the weekends, it's more weighted towards families. And then in the evenings, because we're open until midnight every night, uh, it really is more millennials and young people. So there's kind of something for everyone under one roof. I think uh that in particular is something that has really eroded, you know, in recent decades. And obviously, digital technologies and platforms um have only accelerated that.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah. So what is the experience? Are these enclosed spaces? What is it that it looks like? What is it, what what is the experience like when you're when you're inside?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Absolutely. Well, they are basically enormous glass enclosed domes the size of a football stadium or a concert arena. Uh the smallest facility uh that we operate is is 300,000 square feet. Uh the largest is 700,000 square feet. You can think of these almost on the scale of an airport terminal. And the reason why they're so big is because we attract very, very, very large volumes of people. So on a on an average day, you could have four to five thousand people. On a peak day, you know, we welcome nine to twelve thousand people. That's like you know, summer, summer holiday kind of kind of day. Um, part of the reason why they're so big is also because of that botanical environment that I mentioned earlier. There's, you know, over a thousand fully grown mature trees in the facility as well as thousands of plants. And so you need, you know, high ceiling spans and a lot of natural light to make that environment healthy and sustained. And so when you're inside, you actually often don't even really realize you're in a building because when you look up, you see a tree canopy. You don't see, you know, uh some kind of big roof. And actually, over our main pools, uh the roofs can open and close so that actually in the summer you get a natural breeze and you really do feel like you're outside and you're kind of blurring the boundary between built and natural. But you asked about the experience. So, you know, I should certainly speak to that. Really, the experience is thermal relaxation and wellness, you know, with water and heat. So you are bathing in pools of different temperatures, you're bathing in pools with different mineral compositions, calcium, lithium, salt. You are entering into saunas and steam rooms of different temperatures, different sizes, different levels of humidity. Um, and the facilities are also very actively programmed. So you actually have something called Alfguss, which is a German tradition of sauna entertainment, where you have a sauna master coming in and giving some aromatherapy demonstration with music, with sound, with light. It makes it incredibly entertaining and engaging. And it also moves the heat and the aroma and the humidity around the space, which makes it a much more immersive experience. And I think especially in the US, where people aren't maybe as accustomed to sauna culture, this kind of programming and entertainment is going to make uh the experience much, much, much more exciting and I think accessible for people. But the other thing I should say, and this is why we attract so many thousands of people on busy days, is there's, you know, probably 40% of the project is devoted to families. And in that area, you do have elements that you see from water parks. We have slides, we have wave pools, you know, we have those kinds of attraction elements that you might see, you know, in a in a family water park, but it's packaged in that botanical environment. And more importantly, it's supplemented by wellness experiences for the entire family to provide a counterpoint to the adrenaline. So you have steam rooms for kids, you have thermal pools for kids. And the idea is not only can the parents then relax, because parents might not want to be going down the water slide all day long, but actually there's a space for the kids to also downregulate, to also relax, because children these days actually probably need those kinds of, you know, downregulating environments even more urgently than adults today.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Unquestionably. So, how do you manage all of that? Who is who is watching the kids? Who is, you know, who's organizing people going in or just walking around and availing themselves of the beauty of the of this environment? How it's it's it sounds like a Herculean test.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

It really is a choose your own adventure experience. It is not like a theme park where you have to go in and stand in line for a ride. And, you know, I recently went to uh Disney World. And now, because these parks are so popular, you basically have to, you know, if you actually want to visit some of the attractions, you have to pre-book all of your attractions almost like a schedule of a workday. You know, at 10 a.m. I'm gonna go here and 3 p.m. I'm gonna go there. And it's no longer that fun. You know, it becomes kind of stressful. In Therma, it really is a choose your own adventure kind of experience. You go in and you could go visit the saunas, you could go visit the pools, you could go visit the slides, you know, except on a very, very, very, very busy peak day, you're never gonna have any issue getting into any of those experiences. Maybe on a busy day, some of the saunas might be a little crowded, but you can almost always find yourself, you know, a comfortable space. And in terms of the family area, because of the fact that there are these adult experiences that are delivered directly adjacent to the kids' experiences, the kids are always being supervised and the parents are never very far from the kids. And so we ensure that there's experiences appealing to parents and kind of guardians so that the kids aren't just running off and kind of disappearing. Um, and you know, we have lifeguards and we have we have, you know, people to ensure that people don't get injured. But by and large, this is not a facilitated experience with a minder. This is an independent experience where you are choosing what you want to do, and that's part of the wellness as well. You know, you go in and you're not sure what you want to do, and you can kind of imagine your own adventure every time you go. And, you know, some interestingly, some wellness environments are highly prescriptive and highly programmed and highly scheduled. And we believe that that is actually something that undermines that sense of relaxation. And so we take very much the opposite tack, which is to say once you walk in the door, you know, this place is your oyster, do whatever you wish, and there's no up charge. You know, once you've paid the ticket to enter a certain area, all the experiences are complementary. You don't have to worry about, oh, can I go in there or oh, can I go in here?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

And how are you finding locations? I mean, did you say it was 500 to 700,000 square feet? And I know that you're anticipating putting one in Georgetown and Washington, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, it's not in Georgetown, it's along the Anacostia River in southeast DC. Uh, that is uh the site that we're currently in discussions with the Washington, D.C. government about. Um, but that actually is a good example of the kind of sites that we look for. We are looking for iconic sites in the heart of a city. And so uh at minimum, we need about 15 acres to make the concept work because, in addition to the building itself, we also have quite a lot of outdoor area around with outdoor pools and outdoor restaurants uh and outdoor relaxation gardens and outdoor saunas and so on. So, really, the minimum amount of land that we need to make this concept work is about 15 acres. Uh, and then it can scale up to 25 or 30 acres, depending on how much land you know is available. Um, but in terms of the target type of location that we're looking for, we are looking for sites that are easily accessible because we need to serve a very large number of people. So ideally, it's uh adjacent to mass transit and adjacent to you know freeways. Um, but we also want sites that have some sense of place and some sense of proximity to nature because we don't just want to be an inward-looking kind of nature experience. We also want to be an outward-looking nature experience. And so in DC, the site that the uh District of Columbia has designated us for is along the Anacostia River. Uh, it's on a piece of land that has been closed off to the public for decades. Actually, it's fenced off and inaccessible. It's actually interestingly a site where the federal government used to have its tree nursery for many decades. Uh, ironically, the pesticides they used for the tree nursery were toxic. So actually, a site is now closed and inaccessible. And so we would be part of a larger effort to revitalize and actually um clean up that site from a contamination perspective and reopen it uh to the public. So it's a brownfield. It's a brownfield, exactly. But part of the reason that that site is so attractive to us is you know, it's adjacent to a river, you have an incredible view of the capital. Oh, it's directly adjacent to a metro station, and it's directly adjacent to multiple freeways. So it kind of hits a lot of those points that we look for. And I would say, you know, the other way to spin it is maybe think about where, you know, 15 or 20 years ago, you might have put uh a multiplex cinema or a shopping mall or some kind of, you know, maybe a stadium. We look for those kinds of sites, sites where you want to put places of assembly for very large numbers of people and appealing to, you know, the majority of the population of a metro area. And the easy thing for us would be to put them on, you know, in the suburbs somewhere really far away, but that's not of interest to us. We want to be part of the life of a city, we want to be part of the cultural life of the city. And so the site that we have recently acquired in Dallas also hits many of those criteria. It's adjacent to the historic Trinity River, it has a view of downtown, uh, it's not too far from uh a light rail line and it's directly adjacent to freeways. So it really is about hitting a lot of those points. And maybe the last thing I would say is if you think about ancient Rome and where the Roman baths were placed, they were placed in the heart of an urban area, not on the edge, but in the very heart. And that really is, you know, the inspiration for us in terms of carrying on that tradition.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah. And you've certainly got seasoned people because one of your partners is Robert Hanneman, who is responsible for the creation and the execution of the Highline. So these are people who know what they're looking for and know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

So exactly, exactly. And our chairman in the US is also someone who, for decades and decades, has been building public parks across the U.S. He led the development of Brooklyn Bridge Park. He was also heavily involved in the Highline. It's a gentleman called John Al Schuler. So it's interesting that our leadership team actually includes a lot of people who come out of public space and urban planning. That's certainly my background too. And I think that speaks to our hope and very much our intent for these projects to be civic projects. Yes, they may be commercial, yes, they may be developed by a you know a private for-profit entity, but the goal is for these to be heavily integrated in their communities. We will be partnering with community organizations, we'll offer discounted pricing, we'll even offer at times free pricing, because for us, you know, the projects are only successful if they're achieving social impact and, you know, enhancing the communities that they're in.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

And are you getting pushback? I mean, I know that you're going to the Middle East, I know that you're going to Asia, I know that you're in Europe, and now you're in the United States. Are you getting pushback from the municipalities and from the states about this who don't understand what it is that you're trying to do? Or are they behind it because they understand the potential?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Well, it's a great question. I would say, you know, our government partners have been incredibly, incredibly excited about the, you know, the potential impact of Therma. What they see is something that is increasingly hard to do, which is deliver projects in cities that bring together large volumes of people in physical space. If you think about it 10, 15 years ago, people went to the movies, you know, people went shopping in the mall, people went to offices. But increasingly, and obviously our conversation today is a good example of this, you can access those kinds of experiences digitally. And a lot of the uses that used to reliably bring people together in cities and for city governments, generate tax revenue, generate spending, generate foot traffic, uh aren't as uh, you know, uh as effective as they were in the past. And what's fantastic about Therma is it's a use and experience that cannot be digitized. You know, you can't do this at home, you can't do this on an app, and you never will be able to unless some technology I can't even imagine is created. Um but that's something that city governments have been incredibly excited about. And the fact that we can connect into and enhance adjacent public space such as parks, because we're such a nature focused. Use is also something that has been incredibly interesting to them. You know, a stadium or an office building, or certainly a residential development, is not a friendly neighbor to a public space. It's a closed wall, it's a barrier, it's not very active on a ground floor necessarily, while a therma is all about nature, all about greenery, uh, and all about porosity with its edges. And so that actually creates a very appealing kind of you know adjacency for a public space, kind of like putting a botanical garden into a park, you know. That makes sense. Um, you know, I would say the one area where sometimes we do get questions is oh, you know, this is such a European concept, will it work here? Oh, this is such an Asian concept, will it work here? But I would certainly say in the last three years, you know, that we've been working on this, we've heard those questions less and less. There has really been a movement and a resurgence of thermal bathing and social bathing and so on in the US over the past two or three years. There are companies like Other Ship and Whirl Springs and Bath House, which are doing very, very, very well and a kind of blazing the trail for us. Uh, yes, we're larger, but we also incorporate elements of things that Americans love and have loved for decades, whether it's theme parks, water parks, uh, you know, we have swim up bars, we have water slides. So the thermal bathing experience is packaged in a kind of immersive, experiential um way that I think is going to be very exciting and very accessible and fun for people.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

And it's so healing for the older generation, but it's so delicious for the younger generation, for these kids who are growing up in an urban wasteland to be exposed to this, this utopian, you know, delicious, exquisite something that you've that you just that you just plop down and land in the middle of of you know of an of an of urban decay.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Absolutely. I mean, it's not just the physical experience, because by now, and there's you know, new studies coming out every week about the health benefits of heat and and balneotherapy and what it does for you know cardiac health and for joint health. Um, but I would say even more impactful than that, it's the social impact of being around other people, being around other people in a very uh safe and open kind of environment. You know, when you walk into a thermal, everyone's in a bathing suit, you don't know who's rich, who's poor, you know, all of those markers that segregate us in society outside fall away. And and if you visit, you know, some of the facilities that we already have in the US, you know, for instance, Korean spas or Russian bathhouses, you'll see an incredibly diverse array of people, you know, race, ethnicity, age, gender, people there alone, people there in groups. So already these kinds of experiences are attracting a very broad spectrum of society, and we're confident that we'll only you know enhance and increase that.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

So, what what do you what is your timeline for the US?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

It's a great question. So just building one of these projects takes you know two to three years. It's like building a large stadium or a large theme park. Um, so we are currently in the the design phase in Dallas and in the approvals phase. Our hope is that, you know, in early 2027, late 2026, we would break ground and we'd be opening sometime in 2029 or 2030. So there's still you know four or five years to go until we have our doors open. Um, but we're not in a rush. You know, these are large projects. It takes time to get things right, it takes time to speak to all the different stakeholders and members of the community to ensure that they are supportive of the project and are able to share their perspective on a project. So nothing big should be done quickly. And from my point of view, that's what is exciting about building large projects is being able to have the time to ensure that you're able to incorporate, you know, all of the feedback, meet with all the people who will be able to, you know, hopefully enjoy the project in the future. Um, so you know, we are aggressive in our timeline, but we're also uh realistic. Um but you know, we recently announced a joint venture with a real estate company called the Georgetown Company. It's a national real estate company, and working with them, we you know have set a goal of building 10 of these facilities over the next decade. Um and so the idea is Dallas and DC will be kind of the uh the pilot projects, but ultimately we believe that every large metropolitan area in the US can support a therma, especially because they predominantly attract residents, right? This isn't a tourist-driven concept. So if you have one in Chicago and you have one in LA, they're not going to cannibalize each other. Um so ultimately that's the vision, and ultimately that's the vision of Therma Group globally, is you know, to deliver a Therma in all major global cities, because this is an amenity that we believe is is integral to the health and well-being of an urban area and of an urban society.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Absolutely. And how are these facilities funded?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

How are they funded?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Are they privately funded?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Is it a partnership with the So they um have been privately funded to date. I mean, the facilities um are uh highly profitable and exhibit all of the business fundamentals that would attract, you know, private capital and third-party capital. Uh the facility in Erding uh is the largest water park in Europe uh in terms of visitors. So we get almost two million visitors a year there. And, you know, what makes the business model so attractive is it's this combination of high volume, long dwell time, high repeat visit, and an intergenerational customer base. So people often ask us, who's your target market? And it's very, very hard to answer that question because we cater to both adults and to children. We cater to both weekend customers and weekday customers. We cater to both health and wellness-oriented type customers, as well as people looking for a good time who want to drink a cocktail. So it's a very, very broad spectrum. And sometimes those are the same people, but coming for different kinds of motivations. Maybe sometime I'm going in the week because I want to have a quiet time by myself or with my partner. Maybe on the weekend I'm coming back because I want to be with my, you know, my friends and go with a large group and have a cocktail under a palm tree. So, you know, you can kind of rinse and repeat and have a completely different experience every time you go. Um, but our goal is to raise, you know, significantly significant third-party capital to deliver the pipeline. Um, in just in the past couple of months, we've announced uh deals with uh Macquarie, which is an Australian infrastructure fund, one of the largest in the world, um, as well as Sculptor, which is a global private equity outfit that has seen, you know, the huge potential in our business model. And I think in this idea of wellness as a category that is not only growing rapidly today, but long-term will continue uh to grow. So we're confident that we'll be able to secure the funds, you know, to deliver on this vision. And, you know, we shouldn't beat about the bush. These are very, very large, very, very expensive projects. You know, each one costs, you know, 400, 500 million USD to execute. Um, but then you're attracting two plus million people a year, you know. So, so, you know, it it pays itself back um very solidly.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

And are the municipalities, are the states providing any value to you? Are they giving you any kind of you know, any kind of benefits because you're you're stimulating the environment, you're stimulating.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, on a case-by-case basis, depending on the project needs and the project context, that's something we would certainly enter into a dialogue with a local government about. Um, you know, if we are um helping to revitalize, you know, a certain area or invest in in a public space around the project, um, that might be an area for public-private partnership. Or for instance, in Washington, DC, where we are helping to basically unlock a piece of land that has been inaccessible and contaminated uh for decades, that would be an area in which we would hope for some public investment to help unlock the project. That wouldn't be an investment into the business, but it would be an investment into the supporting infrastructure, you know, the roads, uh, the utilities that you know create a development pad that we can then that we can then build on. But the business, you know, as of itself is very viable. So it's not like we're looking for an operating subsidy. But if the piece of land itself is not yet ready for development, and often, you know, when you have large pieces of land in cities that haven't been developed, it's because of a lack of infrastructure. And that's where a partnership with the local government really becomes critical.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

And tax breaks, you should be afforded tax breaks, don't you think?

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Well, I think on a case-by-case basis, depending on the impacts that we bring, it's something that we would explore. But a priori, it's not something that we go into and say, you know, we will only consider projects with tax breaks.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Yeah. Well, it sounds fantastic, and I can't wait to see this. I can't wait to see this evolve in the United States of America.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Well, we hope we can welcome you in one of our European projects uh sooner rather than later. Uh and uh yeah, we believe that you know there's a very bright future for these kinds of wellness experiences at scale. Um, it's something that this country and this society, I think, desperately needs today more than ever. And it's interesting if you look back historically, America once had a thriving, you know, bathing and social wellness culture. You know, it's things like suburbanization, the rise of the private pool, the rise of the shower, funnily enough, that really started to undermine some of these communal experiences. But I think what you've seen in the past, especially five years, is really a return of interest to um these kinds of communal experiences because people are realizing, you know, a life that's lived without others is a pretty empty and a pretty sad life, you know. So uh so we hope to be a space that can address, you know, the loneliness epidemic, address also, you know, the issues of uh lack of contact with nature, um, and uh, you know, be a place that that people will come back to and people will make special memories in with with family and friends for you know for many years to come.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Fantastic. And is there your facility? I'm gonna be in Glasgow next week. Is your facility in Glasgow up and running yet? No.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

No, no, that's still in the development stage as well. But from the UK, you can take a very quick flight to either Germany or Romania and visit one of our projects there. So uh and it's funny, you know, currently I think 40% of the customers to our Romanian facility are international tourists. Uh it's actually the biggest tourist attraction in Eastern Europe. And a lot of that is because the cheap flights that you have from the UK and Italy and France and Spain, you know, to get into Eastern Europe. So we have you we went viral on TikTok actually last year because people were saying you can go to Romania and back for, you know, and spend a whole day in a spa there for less than the cost of just going to a spa in London. You know my God. So that that was uh a hard, a hard thing to say no to, I think.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

That's kill. Well, thank you very, very, very, very much. I am honored and delighted to have you on Soft and Savage, and uh and I look forward to your making the United States and the world a better place.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Thank you. It was such a pleasure to be here, and I look forward to uh hearing you know all your episodes and guests to come. It sounds like you got an amazing, amazing roster of people and a and a great concept for the podcast. And hope to see you again in person soon.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Okay, I hope so. Thank you.