Men's Grief and the Love That Remains featuring Herman Bulls

Grief is universal, but we do not hear enough men speak about it with honesty. In this tender and deeply human episode, Ruth sits down with Herman Bulls to explore loss through a perspective that is often kept private, men’s grief, and the expectations placed on men to stay composed, stay busy, and stay strong even when their world has changed. Herman shares the love story he built with his wife, Iris, and the devastation of losing her to stage four pancreatic cancer after a sudden medical crisis. He reflects on the realities of caregiving, the shock of rapid decline, and the moments of clarity that reshaped his understanding of what it means to keep living. The conversation also moves into healing, including survivor’s guilt, the value of counseling, and the importance of a real support system, with Herman offering candid, practical encouragement for other men walking this road. The episode closes with a reminder that grief is not a moment, it is a process, and that love and memory can become a source of strength as you move forward, one day at a time.

About the Guest: Herman Bulls

Herman Bulls is Vice Chairman, Americas at JLL and the founder of JLL’s Public Institutions Division, where for more than three decades he has helped federal, state, and local governments, higher education institutions, and nonprofits develop real estate strategies that reduce costs and increase productivity. Prior to JLL, Herman served nearly 12 years on active duty in the U.S. Army, including assignments at the Pentagon and as an Assistant Professor of Economics and Finance at West Point, and later retired as a Colonel in the U.S. Army Reserves. He is also a distinguished board leader, serving as Chairman of Fluence Energy and Vice Chairman of USAA, along with board service across major public, private, and nonprofit organizations. Herman earned his undergraduate degree from the United States Military Academy at West Point and his MBA from Harvard Business School. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome back to Beyond 60 Unscripted. This is the show where we have honest conversations about what it really means to live fully in this season of life that's beyond 60. I'm Ruth Williams Brinkley and I am your host. Today's episode is really a tender episode, and it's so very important. We're going to be talking about grief, and we're talking about it through a lens we don't often hear enough from. We're talking about men's grief and their experience. There are so many expectations placed on men to hold it together, to stay busy, to stay composed, but grief doesn't recognize gender, grief doesn't recognize rules and it does not care about appearances. If you're listening today and loss is close to you, take this at your own pace. And if you know someone who's grieving, this conversation may help you understand what support for that person could really look like. And now it's time for our beyond 60 buzz. So this is a story from The Guardian, and it might not strike you as that important when I first talk about it, but listen up and you'll get it. So uh the title is A Daily Ritual That Rewrites Retirement. So this story is about a woman by the name of Vicki Harden Woods. She worried about retirement and that it would cost her her identity. And you know, that's common with a lot of us. We knew who we were in our jobs, whatever they were. And now that we are retired from those jobs or moving forward from those jobs, we are kind of confused about the future. So what Vicky Harden Woods did was committed to um baking one pie a day, and she gave the pies away. Now you might say, um, what does that have to do with um with retirement? Well, let's take this in steps. First of all, reinvention as is a plan and not a personality change. So Vicki calls out something many few people feel post-career, and many of us may have felt. And it was that uneasy question of who am I without my title? Who am I without my office? Who am I without my assistant who is there to help me? And she answers that question with actions instead of overthinking it. The whole idea of baking a pie every day. So why a project works? Because it's a daily practice. It gives you structure, it gives you momentum, and it gives you a reason to get out of the house. Taking those pies to people gave her a reason to get out of the house. And that's important, especially in the early months of retirement, when the days can blur together and you may not know what you want to do. You may be confused. And if you move too quickly, you may make an error and do something that you really don't want to do. The other uh importance of the baking of the pies was it was building a community. By giving the pies away, it forced connection, not waiting for the connection to come to her. She did an outreach for a connection. It's a great prompt for all of us. What's one small thing I could do today to make it easier for someone else and make it easier for me to interact with somebody else? So creativity can also be a brain exercise as well as a spirit exercise. I don't know that I could bake pies, but I could do some other things. Um, and you could do some other things if you don't bake pies. The surprise benefit is identity shifts from job to values. That's really important. That shift from job to values. Her takeaway in doing those pies is really powerful. She learned that her professional identity was not the core of who she is, but the core of who she is was her values. So, what do you want to be known for in this season? Your values, what are they and how important are they to you that you live those values out in your retirement? And finally, um when you take micro steps and not try to take a big step all at one time, one pie, one day, one person, it's a real simple model for reinvention. And it does not require a huge budget, it does not require reinvention, it does not require anything but a commitment that you keep. So think about it and let's move from what were the big headlines to the human experience. That's why we have this time beyond 60 to do some of the things that we didn't have the time to do when we were in our big jobs. So I am delighted and honored today to be joined by someone I deeply respect, Herman Bulls. Herman, thank you for being here with us today and for being willing to have this conversation. It means a lot to me and to our audience.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Ruth, it's a pleasure to be here. And uh when you call, I answer the phone.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Oh, thank you, thank you. And I do the same. Um, let me share a little bit about Herman, and then I'm gonna have him introduce himself. But I he this is stuff he probably would not tell you about himself. But Herman is just a phenomenal leader, phenomenal executive. And just a little bit about his bio. Herman is vice chairman of the Americas at JLL and the founder of JLL's Public Institutions Division, where he spent more than three decades helping federal, state, and local governments, higher education institutions, and nonprofits develop real estate strategies that reduce costs and increase productivity. Before JLL, Herman served nearly 12 years, 12 years of active duty in the United States Army, including assignments at the Pentagon and as an assistant professor of economics and finance at West Point. He later retired as a colonel in the U.S. Army Reserves. He's also an extraordinary board leader, serving as chairman of Fluence Energy and vice chairman of USAA, along with board service across major public, private, and nonprofit organizations. Herman earned his engineering degree from West Point and his MBA from Harvard. Herman has spent his life in leadership. And today he's joining us, though, in a different capacity, the kind that requires honesty and vulnerability from a personal standpoint. Not that he doesn't have that in his business. He absolutely does. But this is the heart. So, Herman, before we begin, I want to just say this. We don't often hear men talk openly about their grief. And I am so grateful that you're willing to share your perspective. So Herman, if you are comfortable, can you share with me? I want to first hear about the love story between you and your wife, Iris, and then the grief journey that started in the earliest days and what that loss felt like to you.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Well, Ruth, first of all, again, thank you for um having me on the program. Uh it's a pleasure to be here. Uh there's something about grief, but there's also something about love and uh Iris. Uh certainly I keep a picture of her by my desk uh here on our wedding day. I'm showing your listeners now. And and and it's a uh a phenomenal story. Um in the Army, as you said before, and I was at Fort Dix, New Jersey, and I lived in the bachelor officers' quarters. And for your listeners who don't know, it's really like efficiency apartments where officers who are not married live. And one day I left for work and I knew that there was an individual that lived in the apartment across from me, and uh, you know, I saw that they've moved out. The next day I came in, and that apartment, the door was open. So it was directly across the hall from my apartment. So the door was open, so I kind of walked into the room, and it's very, very small. Uh I mean, you can uh, you know, maybe 25 by 25. And I walked in the bathroom, I looked, and I turned around, and when I walked out of the bathroom, I turned around, Ruth, and there was the most beautiful woman sitting there, and with somewhat of a stern look on her face, she said, What are you doing in my room? And and just she has this. I mean, it wasn't, I mean, she was serious, but it was still just such a lovely sight. And you have to think quickly on your feet in these situations for. So I said immediately, I'm from neighborhood watch. I saw the door was open and I wanted to make sure the neighborhood was safe. And she said, get out of my room. Now, I learned later that the another lady that lived next door was her sponsor. So in the military, we have when you go to a new location, you'll have another officer that will be your sponsor, help you acclimate to the area, et cetera, et cetera. And uh, so the sponsor had told her about me, saying, I've got this very flirty guy that lives next door, but I'm gonna get you an apartment right across from me, but you just watch out for him. And uh so she, I think she knew who I was, and she she put that uh uh impremature of being stern on me. And and she was she was she was dating someone uh uh at the time, and uh she had the job which required her to be in the field quite often. She was an exo for a training company, and as a result of that, she often had to work on weekends. My job, I didn't have to work on weekends. So on one weekend, uh her boyfriend was coming to visit her. I mean, we were friends, we would just say hello, et cetera, et cetera. And um uh he came, she said, Hey, you know, we were friends. She said, Can you? I've got to work on Saturday. Would you mind doing some things with my boyfriend? I said, I'd be happy to. And he came, he was an athlete, and we played basketball, we went to eat, came back. And uh, when his trip was over, uh, she said, you know, uh, my my boyfriend said he was so happy that you know you that I lived across the hall from you because you were just such a gentleman and you really helped him out. And uh one weekend I was going to New York City to see a family friend, and I asked her if she wanted to ride up with me, and she said, sure. So we went out for the weekend, and and I think uh during that weekend we we kind of saw that we had something for one another, and it was I I you know, I don't know if I believe in love at first sight, however, there was definitely some chemistry that was there, and as you saw from that picture, she just has the most uh uh inviting uh smile that you could want. And uh there we were. So so we're there, Ruth. And then this was in uh say January, end of January, February of uh 1979. Okay and in the beginning, so we we we we we did start dating, and then I had to leave to go to airborne school in in uh Fort Bidding, Georgia. Okay, and so I'm in airborne school, and she says, Okay, I'll come down and see you. So she came down to see me. And I okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Now you all are still not dating at this point.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

No, we're we're dating now.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Oh, you're dating now.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, we're dating now. This is like four weeks later. I mean, we're we're we're cutting the deal, uh Ruth. I got the number, and if I didn't have the number, I just go across the hall and knock on the door. So it was pretty, pretty, pretty convenient that part of it. So so she comes down to Fort Benny. I hurt my ankle, so I was delayed a week in in the training, and she came down and said, uh, came down to see me. I'll never forget. We went to a mall somewhere and there was a food court and we ate. And I looked up at her, you know, I'm the guy, you know, three of my two of my best friends from high school. I'm never gonna get married, right? I'm I'm I'm Mr. Ed. I'm not gonna get married. And uh, and I just remember looking over at her and and I just said, I said, I think I could see myself with you, I mean with you for a long time. And she just looked at me and said, Hmm, you know, you think you should take that line? And and uh and and then uh so so she left and then I had my graduation from airborne school. Two weeks later, she came back down, and I had driven, so we drove back from Fort Benning to New Jersey, and on the way of doing that, we passed by Washington, DC, and her parents lived in Oxentville, Maryland, right outside of Washington, and we stopped by the house and I got to meet her parents, and you know, they're everybody's just kind of looking at me, you know, who is this guy? And yeah, she's like what happened to the other guy right now. Well, yeah, and uh, so I met her parents then, so that would have been in probably April, and uh then what happened um in June, uh so April through June, July, I was still there, and then I had an assignment where I went back to West Point and I was in the admissions office. So I would be on the road for two weeks, back a week, but I would always fly into Newark for the weekend, go to Fort Dix to see her, then go back to West Point. And I gotta tell you, Ruth, it was during that time that uh I asked her to marry me.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Oh now, how long, Herman, from from the time you met her to the time you asked her to marry you?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

It was probably it was probably six months, nine months.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Wow. Yeah, so you get this was love at first sight, really.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we planned a wedding, had a beautiful wedding uh in in uh August of uh 1980. Uh we were married at West Point and just uh beautiful day. I remember it like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Oh my goodness, I am such a romantic, so this does I love this kind of stuff. So so Lenos fast forward, you got married, and you uh you had three boys, three young men, and um how long were you all married before tell tell me the story about when Iris became ill and then you had to sort of you know go through that?

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Iris was probably the most physically fit person that you have seen. Beautiful lady worked out practically every day, at least five days a week. In addition to that, in terms of diet, she very seldom ate out at lunch at work. She would only do it if she had to for a meeting. Other than that, she would measure this much olive oil, this much, you know. We had a rule in our family you have to eat a leafy green vegetable every day. He subscribed to the Stanford, Harvard, Penn, Johns Hopkins, and Mayo Clinic newsletters and read them every day. They came out weekly, and she would read these things. I mean, it was her passion, health and fitness. And in our house, she would cook me a steak on Father's Day and on my birthday. Other than that, Ruth, you got a lot of fish and chicken in this house.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

No red meat, other than no red meat.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

You know, when at the 4th of July, people come, I would be able to do hamburgers. She did ever the cooking inside. I did all the grilling. We had again, partnerships are so important.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

And uh, so, so, so we're getting ready. Okay. I had represented my company at Davos. And the first time I went, Iris was so dedicated to her job. I told her she was just too dedicated. Sometimes you gotta smell the roses. And the first time I went to Davos, she didn't go because she had the project. So this time, you know, you know, this was six years ago, uh, six and a half years ago. And I'm going, Iris, I don't know how much longer I'm gonna do this. I've got an opportunity to go to Davos again, and we would have been inside the security, nice important, just a it's a great experience and a great week. And I told her about it. So you gotta do this. And she, I remember I walked downstairs and she said, Herman, I'll think about it. Uh however, uh, the doctor told me I had a blood clot in my leg, and we've got to go, you know, I just gotta see if it's okay. I said, Iris, and you know, typical man, I come to some conclusion. I said, Iris, you're working out too hard. You gotta slow down, you're working out too hard. So I'm diagnosing it, of course, misdiagnosing, I might add.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

And and we all do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

We all do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah, and in her, you know, sweet manner, she, you know, she listened to me, but she's gonna do what needs to be done. So uh like two days, three days later, you know, the wife's telling she got a blood clot, she can't get in a plane, et cetera, et cetera. So we decide, uh, she said, okay, uh, we had a plutomicist. Plutomacist, she was going to see a specialist there. Yeah. Yeah. And we went in, Ruth, and it was we had the appointment at one time. And Iris, in addition to her working out, she got her massages at least two a month. Okay. And she had a massage.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

I that those are essential.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, yes, yes, they are. And and we were about, she says, Look, I got to get to my massage appointment. This is taking too long. So we actually got up, walked out, and we're going to the elevator. And the technician came in, Mrs. Mr. Doctor, see you now. He said, Okay. So we go in, see the doctor, and the doctor basically we explained to him what it is. He looks at everything. He says, Well, you know, you know, you're gonna be in first class, just make sure you get up and walk around. It shouldn't be a problem. Um, you know, and he said, By the way, before you leave, though, I want to make sure I get some some blood samples. So he took like 10 vials of blood. So Iris goes off to her massage appointment. I was having lunch with a friend, and the I get a call, and it's from the doctor's office. They said, uh, we tried to contact your wife, we can't contact her. However, she needs to go to the nearest hospital immediately. And I'm like, Well, what is it? So, well, just go to the hospital. And I try to call her, I couldn't reach her. Then I finally I called my uh friend I was having lunch with, said, Hey, I can't have lunch, I gotta go. So I went toward the area where she was having her massage, which happens to be next door to our family doctor. And she was feeling great. And uh she said, Well, look, you know, doctor's office here, let's just go in. And we went in and we told the doctor what happened and what the issue was around the blood clot, whatever. He said, uh, no, they didn't mean to come see your doctor, they meant go to the hospital. So we uh uh, you know, being thinking she might have to stay over, so we came home. I just packed a little bag, like toothbrush or whatever, and then we went to the hospital. And you know, the triage, we had to wait, yeah, wait. Yeah, and then finally the doctor came to see her and said, and she said, you know, I've been having these abdominal pains and blah, blah, blah. And he said, Oh, let's go take a look at this, let's go take some scans. So they went and takes took the scan, brought her back. And Ruth, I remember it like it was yesterday, said, There's something going on and it's not good. And that was when that night uh the diagnosis was made that she had a growth. We didn't know exactly what it is, so she was admitted to the hospital. I immediately called uh two of my sons were I was able to reach. The third one was in the military. He was out on a field exercise, so I couldn't reach him. I called her mom and her sister and her brother, and uh we were admitted to the hospital. And that night, I mean, it was great. The next morning, she was up fixing her hair. Her her family came, her mom and sister came over. I had a board call because I was supposed to be at a board meeting. Obviously, I didn't go to the meeting, but I was doing part of the call in the room, everything, and that that day went great. And then the next night um uh she had a heart attack.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

A heart attack?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Heart attack, yes. And so she was rushed from the women's portion of the hospital to the to the heart unit, right? Went over to the heart unit, and all this makes sense in in retrospect. And then the doctor that had gotten the results of her blood tests, everything, he came in, he said, um uh she has pancreatic cancer.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

And for your listeners who don't know, that is a generally a very, very deadly disease.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Uh usually, and unfortunately for her, we didn't even find out about it until it was stage four. And there are markers that you get things, and she had had some intestines. Issues, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it didn't show up in her physical that she had taken the previous April, nothing showed up. And generally, when you're diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, you know, you can look to you know three to six months to live because it boom goes really.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

It's hard to diagnose as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Very, very hard to diagnose. And uh Iris and her uh uh you know jovial uh personality. She has a doctor said, Oh my gosh, that means I gotta get chemo. I don't want to lose my hair. And all the doctor said, Well, we have a procedure. He had worked with a model uh who had gone through the chemo, and uh yeah, we have a procedure now that we can actually do things that you don't lose your hair. Yeah, it's a cold freeze digney cap, it was called that we use. And she said, Okay, so we went, um uh, then we thought we were, you know, we're just gonna go through and get ready for this treatment. And then a day later she had a stroke.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Oh my goodness. Oh, a heart attack, then a stroke.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Heart attack, then a stroke. Okay, and this is three days after we found out about this. And what what your listeners should understand about this disease, it tries to get to your main arteries, your your lung, your heart, your brain, and cause things to you know discombobulate, so to speak. So this it was working its way through, and I I tell you, she went through, went through uh, they put her through the procedure, then they brought her into ICU. And by this time, all the kids are there, right? So yeah, either they're all there, and I'll never forget today. So I've got the cancer doctor saying we've got to get blood thinner.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

We gotta can't have these uh clogs, and then the internist is saying you can't do that because she's gonna bleed to death if you get to the blood thinner. So it's like sitting there, and they both looked at me and said, Hey, you got, you know, what do you want to do? And it reminded me of Ranger School, which some of those maybe you're put in charge of a leadership position, and they say, Ranger, what you gonna do? And you know, I'm sitting there with these two professionals who have a difference of opinion, but are both giving you their best advice based upon their experience. And I'm more of a go-getter, and I said, We're gonna do the, we're gonna do the thing, we're not gonna sit back and wait. And I went over, and Iris had, you know, she had yeah, wires out of her head and everything, but she was sort of conscience. And uh, I made that decision. I went over her and I held her hand, Ruth, and I said, you know, hey, here's the situation. And this is what I decided. And she squeezed my hand, Ruth, and she said, Whatever you decide is the right thing to do. And that that just that I'll never forget that moment as long as I live. And um then all of a sudden, Ruth, we had what was almost like a miraculous recovery. We did that, she stayed in the ICU probably about four or five more days. Then she went to another part of the hospital where she was doing more uh work and getting stronger. And then they said, Well, you're ready for outpatient rehab. And uh just so happened at the hospital here at ANOVA, they had just opened a new cancer center, cancer center, and everything was in one place. And we said, Okay, we'll we'll do it here. And it was a beautiful facility, and we did that, and one night, Ruth, while we were in the ICU and you're there, by the way, I stayed in the hospital for two stents, and I stayed in the hospital every night except three. I sat on that little little couch there, and yeah, you don't think about it, you do what you need to do. Yeah, however, my son Nathaniel, one night she was in ICU and I wouldn't go home. And I tell your listeners in the future, I should have listened to people because the caretaker needs care as well. Yes. However, you're going through this pulling of you're remembering your vows and you're seeing this person you love and a mother of your kids, and God, if I don't do what I'm supposed to do, but it takes a little balancing. And I didn't do a very good job of that. And I that's one of the lessons I'd learned that I would tell people, but emotionally that's hard to do. So my son says, you know what, we ought to go to Disney World for vacation because we had taken, I had two grandkids at the time, three now, but two of them had gone twice. And the third one, Kennedy, who was born on her birthday, hadn't gone. In the previous year, Iris had sent an email to everybody said, Hey, I got a great idea for vacation because we did, she had this thing, we want to go on vacation. She sponsored, she slash we sponsored vacation. Kids just show up. That was her thing. She said, I don't care. That's what we're gonna do, and that's what we did. And she said, uh, the previous February, uh, maybe February, because we had we planned them a year ahead. She said, I think we ought to do Disney. And people wrote back and said, Kenny's she's gonna be two, she's really not gonna remember. Why don't we wait to do that one? And Ruth, she wrote an email, a text at least. She said, Candy and the kids may not remember, but I will. And it was oh gosh, yes, like, and I mean, this was nine, 10 months before any of this happened. I I, you know, and it's March, and I said, you know what? And the doctors, I didn't tell you when the doctors here and back and forth whether it should be the blood thinner or not. Yeah, they told me that realistically she had 30 to 60 days left.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Okay, and you get that diagnosis, right? Stroke, heart attack, ICU. This lady made the most miraculous recovery you have ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Really?

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yes. So, Ruth, we got to the point that I often say that rules are guidelines. So, first of all, you had to be out of the rehabilitation center before you could have your first chemo treatment. Yeah, for some way I was able to create a scenario where they gave her her first chemo treatment the day before we got uh dis discharged. We got back, and two weeks, three weeks later, Iris and I were out playing golf.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

She had that much of a big recovery.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

So just to get it going, Aruth, there's uh she had been telling me one more story, and then I'm gonna let you ask another question that and this just shows uh how we've lived. She had told me about two and a half years earlier that she wanted a water fountain in the backyard. And I didn't conceive it, and I had no idea what she was talking about. And I gave her the heisman for a year and a half. And finally, one day she was in the hospital, got out of the hospital, came back home, and it's COVID. I'm sitting right where I am now doing work, and the doorbell rang because she had a very low tolerance, so we had to make sure she didn't around people. Yeah. And she said, It's a man that's gonna build my garden. And I will tell you what, she designed that garden, Ruth, and to this day it exists. They delivered three flats of rock the week before she died.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Oh my goodness. Oh, it is.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

And and what I do now when I, you know, during the appropriate weather, I come home from a trip. First thing I do is go out in that that garden and in our home, the balcony of our bedroom master bedroom suite kind of looks over it. You can hear the water. Oh, it's just so tranquil. And she was a big tea drinker. We built this house and we put this balcony up on, and I just I imagine her now getting her evening tea, going out on our bedroom balcony, it's lit beautifully, and just listening to the waterfall and uh and her um her joy. So, Ruth, that's our story. I mean, it's a beautiful story for me. Uh, it's it's heartbreaking. It takes time to get over grief. Uh, grief is not a moment, grief is a process. I think I don't know how a woman feels about it. I can only say uh how I felt about it. Uh, and and I, you know, I basically say there's no timeline. Um turning. And one point I had, let me tell you one point I had that was so important. The day after she passed, I stayed in my bedroom, window shades down. It was summertime. I didn't have a shirt on top. And my little daughter-in-law, uh granddaughter, who's probably two and a half to river, she knocks on the door. She says, T-Dad, what are you gonna come down? I mean, I don't know if she understood death or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I looked up and she said, Who, why are you in bed naked? And I sit there and I just, you know, because I'm going through, you know, my wife isn't right. I'm going through it. But I'm saying the innocence and purity of this, yeah. And Ruth, I'm gonna tell you what. I got my butt up, I hadn't shaved, and I, you know, I don't look very well now, but I know I didn't look good then. You look great, Herman.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

You really do.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Okay. And then, and then I go look in the mirror, and Ruth, this is what happened. This is so important for everybody to understand. Life is not about absolutes, life is about relativity. I looked in the mirror, Ruth, and I thought of my mother. I'm the youngest of seven kids. My father was killed in a farm accident when my mom was four months pregnant with me.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

She hadn't finished college. My dad was a janitor and a farmer, so there was no money. She was in another part of the county picking cotton. And think of her when she got the news that her husband is dead. She has six kids, she's pregnant, probably no money in the bank, maybe$50. Okay. And I'm sitting here in this beautiful home, resources with a support system of my kids around me, and I think I'm having a bad day.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Now she over the years went back, got her GED, working four jobs at the same time, a cook, a uh domestic house cleaner, a collecting insurance for Atlanta Life Insurance Company, and she fixed hair on the side at times. And she was doing all those things, driving 70 miles round trip two to three days a week to go get her LPN degree, which she got, which propelled us into a you know middle class existence.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Now she had a bad day.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

I had a terrible day, but relatively speaking, to what my mom went through, get your butt up and go live with it.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah. Wow. That that's a remarkable story. So, what happens after that, Herman? How did you, you know, you know you go through funerals and so forth. How did you handle? Did you have to confront your own grief at some point?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

I definitely did. And what I did, I went to some grief training with the funeral home, and they have, you know, people that lose loved ones in that period of time. And there were three or four sessions. I did that, and it helped some. And then I actually went out and uh, you know, got a counselor. Okay. And the counselor, I went for the first session. I probably didn't give it uh the time it needed. In the first session, and all the questions she was asking me, it was all of the things that I had done as a junior officer, counseling my soldiers. And I'm like, I don't know. This isn't happening to me, whatever. And and I stopped going. However, probably about a year and a half ago, I got back in touch and I really seriously took counseling up.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

And went in for counseling. And I tell men, women, whoever, go out there, be honest with your counselors, yeah, talk to them, and have somebody lead you can listen to. I had my kids, you have everything, but you just certain things you're just not going to share with everybody. And having that one place where you can share everything and feel safe about it has been fantastic. And now I'm uh, I won't say I'm on top of the world, but this is going great. Two more grandkids, uh, you know, and one of the things you had in your pre-thinking, I did start dating, and and one of the things, let me tell you, let me tell you, talk about the love story. And this is important for me. Yeah I just did a couple things. She told me, she said, hey, because I mean, she knew she was gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

And living with someone you love that you know is gonna die, they know they're gonna die. You just you talk, we would have such great talks. Yeah, and one of the things, the reason we did this thing with the kids and paying for their vacations, she was like, Herman, she did this before she was sick. Herman, I don't want any more stuff. I want memories. I want memories. And we had some great memories, and we make those memories. So we just uh uh so so she she said, and this is this is her very personal now. Okay, she said, You're a young man, you need to live your life, you can make someone happy, and I want you to be happy. So she tells me that let me tell you how strategic she was. She made the same comment in front of two people that she knew they were listening, but they weren't really in the conversation. She did it with my oldest son and she did it with her sister.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Ah, and this was people who can vouch for her words after.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I'm certain that's the way she was thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

And and and it it it it it meant and means a lot.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

What a remarkable story, Herman. I I didn't, I wish I could have met your wife. She is just was just a remark. I say is because it's you've kept her memory alive, but she was just a remarkable woman. How are you feeling today? You said you were feeling pretty pretty good. You you said that, you know, I think you said you're not on, you won't say you're on top of the world, but you're feeling good.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

I'm feeling good.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

What I do, Iris and I talk every day. Uh, I'm a very spiritual person, uh, and meaning that I believe in a higher being, and we talk every day. I I pray before every meal.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

And uh she is generally in that. Uh great relationship with my kids, the grandkids. My name is G Dad. Her name was Granny. It's something easy that easily that they can say. Uh, just love uh seeing them. My professional career, I'm working as much as I want to, so to speak. Uh I'm doing the corporate board work, which is interesting. I'm chair of a public company.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

And uh it's just it's just fantastic. I'm getting ready now on ELC. I've got a yeah, so be over, getting ready to go for an ELC trip. And then I'm gonna head down to uh Houston, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

I think it's Houston.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, that'll be in Houston. And then from there I have a board meeting, uh, one of my boards online, called public company boards, and then I'm gonna go down to um to uh Cabo St. Lucas with a friend for a week and a half and lay back and eat and exercise and take in the sun.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

That is wonderful, Herman. I mean, you're doing remarkably well. My last question then is what advice? I know you grief is a personal journey and and loss is a personal journey, but if you I won't even say advice, what would you say to other men who are what would you say to other men who are on this pathway? Um and and did you do you have anything that you would say to other men? Well, or to anyone particularly?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

I I you men, men maybe, maybe there's something uh specifically for for men. Um, but I think the first thing is make sure you have a support system and don't feel that you're along. I think that's important. Um, you know, you you don't, you know, my military training, I used to think, you know, you gotta be tough and you gotta do all this stuff. You don't. Let me tell you something. Cry when you have to or when you want to. I gotta tell you, I don't think I will ever try to hold back tears again in my life. Okay, you know, teach kids, oh, be a big, big, be a big boy, be a big girl, don't cry. Um, talk to someone you trust. And remember the combination, I've got my brother-in-law Matt, I've got my childhood friend Ricky Lewis, and my college fan, Ray Bassett, I've got a couple of other friends that from West Point, Tom Bostick and Darcy Anderson. So you've got all these people from different points in your life. Stay in touch with them. Uh, let me tell you, stay active physically and mentally. Uh, you know, I got a nice workout in this morning before this show. I uh Iris had something that she uh was definitely in. We were both. And in the healing process, it's not a straight line, it's uneven. Yeah, you can have those days when it is what it does. Uh, it's quiet. You gotta have those moments. It takes time. And uh, you know, and don't be afraid, I want to say again, for a man, don't think that you don't need support. You do need support.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

And I heard you say also that you didn't say this, but you said it in indirectly in your comments. Timing is everything because you said you did a little bit of grief counseling uh when ours first left us, but then you went back. It was almost like three and a half, three years later, three and a half years later. And you were ready then. You didn't say that, but that is that a fair assessment you were ready then.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I was ready then, and and just in terms of understanding how I wanted uh not only my family relationships, but my personal relationships to exist. Because let me tell you what you have, Ruth. Okay, or what I have, I shouldn't say everyone. I had survivors guilt.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Me and this lady, I don't think I would be, I'll tell you right now, I would not be where I am right now without Iris Bowles. I would not be where I am now. She was the person that when we didn't have anything, worked with me and we supported one another. I started a company while she was still working. We had her insurance, and I took the risk and started this company, and it worked. Uh and the survivor guilt comes in in that having success in so many different dimensions, and knowing that she contributed to it, and knowing that right now she would be with those grandkids somewhere doing something, and we would be traveling. We had all of these plans to travel and be with the kids, and you know, we have the resources to do it, and and and there's every so often this guilt comes in is that the love of my life, whom I wanted to share that with, yes, is not here with me to share. And that's where the survivor's guilt comes in.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah, but you know, she she would be happy for you from everything you have told me. It's sad, but I in my I just imagine that she would be happy for you and would tell you because she told you, you you said this earlier. She told you to have a life, basically, you're a young man, and to not sort of fade away. Um those are my words, not fade away into obscurity. Is that fair? She oh that's that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

She those were her words, you're a young man, but Ruth, I just celebrated my 70th birthday, so I don't know about the young man.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Well, you were you're still young. I consider myself still young. So you know it's it's and I'm in I'm in my 70s. Um, it's it's just what you do, and you are healthy. Thank goodness you're healthy. So I am happy for you. And I am happy, and I'm happy for myself because I went through a similar experience. Yes. Uh 17. Oh, no, no, it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

You and I, you and I spoke about that.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah, it's been a long time, but it it is timing. Everything is timing. And you have to grief what I have learned, and I and others I've talked to, it's a personal experience. And this has been your personal experience. And I really, really appreciate you sharing it with other men because women, as women, we talk to each other and we process things with each other, sometimes out loud, sometimes in the back room. But men are more reticent. And and I just hope that there is someone listening who will get something from what you've said, Herman. Thank you. Very, very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

And now it's time for our silver lining. It's a small reflection that we hope you will carry with you throughout your week, day, month, whatever. So the silver lining today is that grief is not proof you're broken. And that is important. You may feel broken, but grief cannot break you unless you allow it to. It is proof. Grief is proof that you were loved and loved dearly. And we heard that through everything that Herman told us today. And if you're in the thick of grief, here's the truth. I've been in the thick of grief, and everybody's grief journey is individual, as I've said many times before. If you're in the middle of grief, you don't have to worry about doing everything today or tomorrow. Take your time. All you have to do is figure out what is the next most important thing you have to do. One call, one walk, one meal, one honest moment, one pie, if you will. Healing is built quietly, and it comes from the inside to the outside. And no one can tell you how to heal or how to grieve. It's individual. Herman, we thank you so much for sharing your heart, your soul, and your honesty and your wisdom and your willingness to bring this conversation out into the open, especially for men. I know that this is going to help someone feel less alone. To our listeners, I want to thank you for being here with us. I want to thank you for just being your presence. If this episode resonated, please share it with someone who might need it. And finally, I want to say, be sure to follow Beyond 60 Unscripted on social media. Subscribe wherever you listen. And if you have a moment, please leave us a review. We really want to know what you think, and we want to have other people be aware of our podcast. Next time, we're going to be talking about another exciting topic. You won't want to miss it. We're happy for you to join us today, and please keep joining us. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other, and remember that your best years are still ahead of you.