How to Actually Build Influence At Work

In this episode of The Triple Triple, Sydne Garchik, Meredith Esarey, and Cathy Coler unpack how to actually build influence at work—from networking and credibility to confidence, relationships, and leadership presence. They discuss why hard work alone isn't enough, whether it's better to be liked or respected, and the career lessons they wish more women understood earlier. 

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome to The Triple Triple & A Big MRK Milestone

01:55 What We Got Wrong About Successful Women

04:03 The Myth of Having It All Together

06:00 The Women Who Opened Doors Before Us

09:17 Career Success, Motherhood & Modern Expectations

11:35 How Great Leaders Get People On Board

16:22 Why Consistency Builds Trust

19:25 The Power of Authentic Leadership

20:42 Is It Better to Be Liked or Respected?

24:22 Can You Respect Someone You Don't Like?

29:32 How Influence Is Really Built at Work

31:42 The Secret Advantage of Humor in Leadership

32:22 Why Human-Centered Leadership Is Winning

34:06 What Corporate Leaders Can Learn from Sports Teams

36:06 Creating Accountability Without Burnout

37:26 Why Celebrating Wins Matters

38:56 Recognition, Growth & Psychological Safety

42:43 Final Leadership Lessons & Closing Quote 

ABOUT MRK PARTNERS

MRK Partners Inc. ("MRK") is a real estate development firm specializing in the acquisition, repositioning, preservation, and creation of affordable housing.

We are mission-driven and resident-centered, guided by the belief that everyone deserves safe and affordable housing. Secure homes and supportive communities are the foundation of empowerment.

By prioritizing our residents’ needs and fostering connection, opportunity, and resilience, we create environments that enrich lives, strengthen neighborhoods, and uplift entire cities.

Our approach integrates thoughtful design, purposeful amenities, resident services, sustainable practices, and operational efficiency to build affordable communities where people want to live — not just where they can afford to live.

With communities across the country, MRK continues to grow by building strong partnerships and demonstrating that affordability and excellence can coexist. 

To learn more, visit mrkpartners.com

ABOUT MRK PARTNERS

MRK Partners Inc. ("MRK") is a real estate development firm specializing in the acquisition, repositioning, preservation, and creation of affordable housing.

We are mission-driven and resident-centered, guided by the belief that everyone deserves safe and affordable housing. Secure homes and supportive communities are the foundation of empowerment.

By prioritizing our residents’ needs and fostering connection, opportunity, and resilience, we create environments that enrich lives, strengthen neighborhoods, and uplift entire cities.

Our approach integrates thoughtful design, purposeful amenities, resident services, sustainable practices, and operational efficiency to build affordable communities where people want to live — not just where they can afford to live.

With communities across the country, MRK continues to grow by building strong partnerships and demonstrating that affordability and excellence can coexist. 

To learn more, visit mrkpartners.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Triple Triple. Three women, three kids each, and a triple shot of unfiltered truth. Here we talk about all the things: life, careers, raising families, leadership, and shaping communities. This podcast is equal parts informative, inspiring, and fun. So grab a seat cupcake and let's dive in. I'm Sydney Garchick, president of MRK Partners.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

I'm Kathy Kohler, Chief Operating Officer of MRK Partners.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

And I'm Meredith Essery, Chief Revenue Officer of MRK Partners. All right. Morning, everybody. We are in a new studio space today.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Sid, do you want to tell us where we are and why we're here? So we're in New Jersey because we did a thing. We, over the last basically year and a half, have been working on an acquisition of both real estate and a management and development company based here in New Jersey. And we're so excited because we have basically finished that entire uh acquisition. And so now we are here, a lot of us are here, um, descending on New Jersey to welcome and to spend time with all of the new management and development co-personnel. And we've taken our portfolio just over 10,000 units. So it's been a really big jump for us, and it's a really exciting start for the next 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Super exciting, big move, lots of changes, really, really exciting growth. So I love that Tiff, our producer, found a studio here locally. So when the three of us are together visiting um out in these offices, we can do this here too.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

So fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah. So I don't always have to flop to California to be with you to now.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

We know what it's like to have to travel. All these clothes. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Outfit changes and all those things. Um, so today we're gonna talk a bit about women in leadership. And we kind of like weave this into many conversations that we have, but I really want to target sort of the younger us, which we do a lot too, which is like, who were we at 22 when we started in our careers? And what did we we personally misunderstand about women in leadership, women that were successful? Do you remember those early careers, maybe whether you were interning or starting in a new job, that you saw women in leadership roles or you saw really successful women? What did you think about them? What did you conjure in your head maybe before you even spoke to them? And then when you did, did it match what you thought for that woman? Was she struggling? Was she as successful as she looked? Um, this was interesting to me because I I, until joining MRK, have worked only for men. And it was a really interesting thing to watch other women around me grow into leadership roles and what I thought they had to do at 22 to get there versus what I see now as women in leadership. So before I give some of my storytelling, what comes up for you when you started your early career?

SPEAKER_03 3:04

My biggest thing is there's there's one woman who was my manager and my boss for a while, someone you know as well. And she was always so calm and collected. And I just thought, like, oh, nothing bothers her, and that must be really easy. And and now I know how much rage she must have felt internally at every second, and so been like, okay, deep breath. And I think that's that's a part of leadership, period. But as a woman, you're also told never to have an emotion. I'm I balance that a little bit of if I really sometimes I think it is good to have some emotion. But I just thought that was just her. She just didn't have any, but that's not true. She had a ton, but she knew how to channel it. And so it was a few years in when I realized, like, oh, she's furious, but you're just not seeing that. And that is very powerful, I think, to do that. Um, but I didn't realize how hard that must have been on her.

unknown 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah. I think for me, what comes up, which is interesting, is even before maybe I was interning or into the workforce, like I the successful woman was kind of like the picture of my mom. And my mom, like, was a corporate lawyer, and she wore a suit and she wore heels and she was like put together and um very confident. And so, like, that was kind of my thought of being successful was like, oh, you know, I'm going to wear a suit and I'm going to have a good handbag, and my hair is gonna look good, and everything is gonna be perfect, and I have my all of my shit together, and I'm perfect, and I also rule the world. And what's been so interesting for me is actually what it really looks like, and the fact that honestly, that really doesn't matter that much. Um, and that I pick sneakers over high heels because my feet hurt, or that, you know, success as we define it today is being in balance, feeling good about yourself, feeling confident, being a good leader, all of these things. And rarely does anyone actually care what I look like at all. Um, you know, I often don't even wash my hair. So so I think, you know, that has been an interesting shift for me over time as I've as I've grown.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

I think one comment, because we joke about this a lot, like I tend to dress more in all of those different things. But I think what it really boils down to is how do you feel comfortable showing up? So if you don't feel comfortable in heels or even in whatever outfit, then it shows. And it it shows that you feel uncomfortable and you're kind of awkward in your in your costume, if you will. And the same would be true for me if I was really casual, right? And it's so I think that confidence comes from being like more true to who you are and showing up in whatever way that is, and that exudes the confidence. One thing that was interesting, similar to your mom, my mom, way back when they called them stockbrokers, she was a wealth manager, and she was at Payne Weber in the 80s, and she was the first female vice president there in Chicago. And so my mom, similar to you, had a lot of this like corporate, like you know, I don't know, presence, I guess, if you will. So I too enjoyed that and it probably stuck with me a bit longer. But what I also thought was really interesting is I've talked to my mom and other women when I was 20, and these women were 60, what they had to fight through to get to the places that they were. And so I don't know that I was maybe not aware, but I wasn't as deeply aware as I am now. But showing up in those spaces where it's like, why were they so protective of being the one woman in the room? Like there wasn't a lot of space for extra young 22-year-olds that had big voices. And then if I really look back and it's like, I gotta give some grace there. They had to fight really effing hard to get into that room, to be at that table, to be in the leadership space they were in. And so while I think many women do want more and better for the younger women coming up and they can shepherd you through that process, there's still a little bit of them that's like, hey, don't come in here and command the room. I had to fight real hard to get here. And so there's some grace that I feel like I can bestow on a lot of those older women that I didn't at the time.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Well, and I think it also created a, so I am therefore the only one in here and I will push you out of reality. And then in addition to that, I also, same manager that I was talking about before, I remember one time there was like some executive made a joke about me in the office. It wasn't a well, okay, maybe it was a bad joke. Um, it had to do with my looks and it was a compliment, but it was inappropriate because I was like 22 and I was like, oh, what's a big deal? And it got turned into a big deal. And I even said to the HRI, like, I don't know why this, I didn't complain, but my manager was just protecting me from other things that could happen and stuff. And so I think that that was amazing because it was someone trying to had to fight their way in that then was trying to protect younger women. And I think often it was kind of pushed out instead because I have to be the only one, or you might push me out if you're in here with me.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

It's really interesting that you say that because I think that is very true. And as a woman that was in a I mean, we are women in a male-dominated industry, but in my past 20 years, I was a lot of times one of the only women in the room when there'd be 25 men and then me, or 25 men and me and one other woman. And it is very different to be at MRK and to be in an environment where we're all women. So there isn't that level of competition because you can't be the only woman, one on leadership or really in our organization, because we're more than 50% women. And so I think that that's a really it's like it it disappears from your mind that that competition from a female perspective is even part of the dialogue anymore. And it it removes sort of a stress for you. You're like, okay, I don't have to worry about that. I don't have to fight for that or fight against it if there are other women in the room that are fighting for like against you, which I think's kind of cool. Yeah. But there's a lot to learn and a lot, like as we continue to grow in your careers, and then we end up becoming the 60-year-old woman in the room. What is it gonna look like for us to talk to the 22-year-old woman when she comes in? Like, what is her attitude gonna be? What is what is our attitude gonna be about that?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, it'll be really interesting because I think I completely agree. Like our parents, our moms had to fight super hard. Like my mom ended up being a partner at a very young age, but that meant a lot of sacrifice. Yeah. And I think like we benefit from that, like we wrote on that. So now, like, okay, what is this next generation? But we still had to work really hard for that, right? Like for everything that we've done. And so I'm I'm curious to see from for the next generation, like, how will we feel? Like it shouldn't be given to anyone, it still requires a lot of hard work, right? But it's different, right? It's different in the sense that we might be able to run out and watch our kids school play or whatever where our our moms might not have been. But it it doesn't necessarily mean that the work or the push was less.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

No, I think in in in some ways it's a different kind of heart because they were fighting a singular path, right? To have the right for women in these roles and in these companies. And we're saying, okay, we're we're doing that, but we're also fighting to be active parents. Because I think that generation sacrificed a lot on the family side for the career because it was such a full-time fight. And now we're saying, okay, so part of our fight is to be corporate, and then the other part of our fight is to still be moms, which can be almost, I don't want to say more, it's not fair, but like an equally draining experience because you're trying to be a hundred percent in two categories instead of saying, I'm willing to sacrifice one for the other.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

But I think social media makes being a mom very performative, too. Yeah. If you're not cutting in the sandwiches and little stars, which I do never do, but you see these videos where people are doing all these things and that shit, and it's thought that that's the standard versus just making sure that they're loved and taken care of and that they have a lunch and you know, that they know that their family loves them.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And the fact that like you can actually make money in social media by doing those performative things is like a whole different ballgame between like not being in social media and having like a job that is off social media. Yeah, I mean, the other morning, like Avery refused to get out of the car to go to school. Like by 8:15, when I finally dropped her off after we went to get cereal boxes, it was a whole production. But like I felt like I needed to go back to bed. Like I had lived a life before I even started my regular life. So it's just, I do. I think it's gonna be very interesting to see what happens with the next generation. Yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

I think the other thing I've been thinking a lot about is like when we think of leadership and we're trying, and again, in a male-dominated world, I was told a lot what to do, right? And then you decide when you get to the point where you have a voice and you can say no back or disagree and create space for your own opinions. And as leaders, how do we communicate with our teams and how do we get them to do what we need them to do without feeling that old, more like authoritative mentality? And this has been a thing I struggle with, like with my kids too. But I do think leadership can be a lot like parenting, but in the most wonderful way, not in a condescending way, but in a really wonderful way about how you want to parent your children. And one of the things I found to be really helpful in this, like, okay, how do I get the people on board with my ideas and make people feel like they're heard? I typically will start with like who's making the decision. So I name that at the beginning of the question. So I'll start with like, hey, everybody, this is a collective decision. I want everybody on board. We're gonna all kind of like have the conversation, could sort of vote to get on the same page. And then other times I'll say, I'm gonna make the final decision here. So I want to hear everyone's thoughts. I want to gather that information, but ultimately I am going to decide. And then then I need everybody to be on board with that decision. But sometimes naming it so that they understand that at the beginning has been really helpful to me. And I found that in my past life, when people would ask for my opinion, I would give it. I'd feel really passionate about like we cannot do X. We need to do Y. And then they would do Y. I felt like no one heard me. But it was because they were always going to make the decision. They were just gathering information. But at the time, it felt like, oh, you wanted to know what I think because you're going to listen to me. I'm wondering how you think about it, maybe with parenting, but also with like getting teams and ideas or even partners like outside of the company to move along a path you need them to go on.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

I think I do a lot of what you just said about showing that you've they've been heard, right? So I heard what you said, and this is what we're going to do. So because I think sometimes just letting them know that that you heard that, and that was one of the options, just because it wasn't the option chosen doesn't mean that they weren't, nobody paid attention to them. Yeah. And I think the other thing that I noticed too is half the time when I'm listening to somebody and what they're saying and what I'm saying is not very different. And so if I can either identify for them, like, but you see the similarities in what we're saying, and or if it's putting something in a specific format that is exactly what I said, but in the order that they want it, or something like that, that goes a long way. So I think sometimes just taking a step back and hearing what they're saying and what you're saying, and what is the difference about it? What are the similarities and matching those similarities together? But definitely no matter what, being authentic in what you say. Um, you don't just say yes to somebody if you know that that's not gonna work. Well, you're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't have teams as much as you guys do. I'm lucky in that like the people that I surround myself with are really people that I trust and that do the thing already without a lot of a lot of asking. Um, but I think, yeah, it's really hard because sometimes we really struggle with authoritative, you need to do this. And does that produce the right result? Or here's the vision and here's why we're working to it towards it. And like, so like let's all get on board and get to that thing. And I still think we we even struggle with that now. And and how do you hold people accountable without making it feel authoritative, but also hold people accountable. And so, you know, I'm really actually lucky that I don't have to struggle with that as much anymore because the people that I mainly interact with hold themselves accountable, which is just like a an amazing thing. And I think most of our organization does that as well. But I think it will be interesting to see going forward, um, you know, how we continue to get better at that. How do we integrate a full team? You know, how do other people encourage, you know, others to do to do what they want.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

What's interesting too is when I'm talking about this too, I'm actually not thinking about the people who work under me that I manage. I'm thinking about when we're going to a housing authority for something or we're going to a lender to say, this is how you should look at this or equity. So I think it can span well beyond just managing, you know, the people that are at your company and just how you're working with the vendors and and whatnot to get what we're trying to achieve across.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

I think there's also something to be said for consistent behavior. When you're talking about a woman that we used to work with, and for the most part, you are this calm, sort of steady, reasonable human. And there are times though, where I will do this, but it's like, okay, when you hear this intensity coming from me and I'm getting frustrated, it's because I've like I've worked through this whole path. And here I am. Right. And so when my team or I was very frustrated with a service provider recently, and I'm calm and I'm calm and I'm calm for a week and a half, and then something is still not done, I will show up in a meeting and say, I am confused as to why this is not done. This was my ask. This it we are well past that, and I'm very direct. So I'm never yelling at anyone, but my language is curt, it's short, and it is direct. And so I think when we're when we're asking for people, it's like, hey, let's be collaborative with the housing authority and like whatever, and let's try to figure this out together. But there becomes a point where shit has to get done, and I'm now past the point. It's like talking to your child where you're like, put your shoes on. Hey, babe, can you put your shoes on? We're leaving. Can you put your shoes? Put your shoes on. Because they won't get to the shoe part, right? Like, I have one child that that takes like nine times to get to. He's like, Why are you always yelling? I'm like, I wasn't yelling for nine times that I asked. And then you finally get to the point where you break. So that does happen. But I think if we can break in a way that is authoritative, that is confident, that is reasonable and respectful, the break has meaning. It has power. And sometimes it's okay to use that more intense version of yourself to get something across the bench line.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

I might use it a little more often than you.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Fair. But you're authentic to who you are. And there, there's a lot to be said about this consistency in leadership. Like Adam Grant talks about this a lot that when you as, and I'm not saying this about you, but when someone is an asshole, they're always an asshole. And that's really helpful because you know how to navigate that person's personality. But when someone, and then when someone is calm all the time, you know how to navigate that personality. But when someone is oscillating between being a psycho and being calm and then being your best friend and then yelling at you, it's like, I don't know what Jekyll and Hyde version I'm gonna get of you today. And that causes a lot of anxiety for people in organizations and in communities when you're like, who are you today? And so they basically stay on edge all the time. And I had one boss that he was fine, but it there were some behaviors that were very frustrating, but they were so wildly consistent. He was so like easy to read. And I was like, oh, here we go. Step one, this behavior, step two, this behavior, step three, I'll get what I need. And I just got to wait out the steps because he was so predictable. So I think for us as leaders, is thinking about how do we create consistency in our environments where they know what to expect all the time, so that when we do hit the gas and we get real frustrated, they're like, oh, she means business. This isn't just one of her moods. This is like shit has to get done.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

And I think we do a really good job basically showing up like as our authentic selves. And I think it's interesting for women because we don't have time for anything else. Like, we are who we are. You're gonna get our responses, we're calm, we're collected, we have our shit together. And then at some point you're really gonna frustrate us. But this is us, and we don't have time for the drama. Like, we don't have time to go through a whole cycle of crazy town before we get to an answer. So I think that's also really interesting. Like, everyone knows where my head is at just because I'm always showing up as myself. Yeah. And the other interesting thing I think we do a really interesting job with is also storytelling. Like we are storytellers, right? Because we are sharing affordable housing and like what it actually is. And in order for people to buy into that, you have to share the vision. And that for me is actually a really interesting way to get people on board with things. And it is because like I can go and say, look, this is what we're going to do. It's going to be really cool. Now, like, get on board, right? And I and I think that also drives people to do to follow the vision and the mission. And it's been something that um I think everyone at MRK has is that mission and vision.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, so when we're talking about again back to the female leaders and or really leaders in general, there's this idea of being well-liked or well respected. And I have a lot of feeling, a lot of thoughts or feelings on this about those words. And because I think your interpretation of the word liked and your interpretation of the word respected really matters. How are you defining respect and how are you defining liked before you answer the question, is it better to be well-liked or well respected? I'm wondering if that question has come up for you or you've thought about it yourself. Um, and when you think about it, is it coming from a place of defensiveness because you don't feel well respected or you don't feel well-liked? So you're choosing one or the other in that moment with like an emotional reaction, or do you have a pretty steady, like, no, if I've sat back and I was in my rational mind, not frustrated or sad or whatever, like which one feels important to you? And is it an either or?

unknown 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

I mean, like to me just is like popularity, friends. And I don't know, like, I've never been the most popular. So I'm I'm pretty like confident in that. Like, I think like people generally like me, but I'm not the most popular, and and I'm okay with that, and I've been okay with that, and I'd rather be doing something. Like I remember in high school, there was never the popular crew, but everybody knew what I was doing though. They're like, oh, Kathy got this test right or did this in this race or something like that. And and so that matters more to me than having like a crowd of people that I don't know, like me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

I think that respect drives like, right? Like I think that if you show up in your authentic self, you're truthful, and you are gaining respect, then that generates like, right? Like I would say, like Kathy specifically, you're well respected and also well liked, right? Like I hope that's the case for me. Like I know that's the case for for you. So it's like, you know, that is where I would love to start because I think that if someone respects you, that like leads to the like, right? I don't show up every day being like, I want you to love me. Yeah, I I want to be friends with you because if I'm talking to you, I usually really like you. But I want you to respect me because you know I'll be authentic, I'll be truthful, I'll show up for you, right? When you need me, and and on all of these things, it's it's like a friendship, right? And so I think that respects drives the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Do you think there are people you sometimes the con like respect as fear? Because I think we're not talking about it like that, but I do think that that exists, or someone's like, well, I respect them. And it's sort of like a respective authority. It reminds me of like my dad and my childhood was like respect your mother, you know, and father kind of vibe. And so I think there can be this like more negative connotation to respect that comes from a place of fear that's like, well, I respect them in sort of a hallowed way where I they maybe aren't authentic, or I don't feel the like because there isn't the warmth and connection, but I respect them because they're a leader in their field, or they're intelligent, or they've created a career that is meaningful, but I don't like them, but I respect them. And I think that there is there can be a difference.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Well, I agree. I you don't have to be respected and liked. You could be respected and feared, but I think that just comes down to the type of person you are, no matter what, though, right? Like the person that's feeling that way or the person that is that way. It to me, it tends to be respected and feared tends to be more along the lines of I haven't connected with somebody, right? Or I have shown that I just don't care about somebody. And I think that for us, we whether you like me or not, I don't want anything bad to happen to you, right? Right. Like, and that's across the board with everybody. And when we have to let somebody go, I am very sad about that person. Like, I don't want them to feel that sadness, but it's the best probably for them too, right? So I still have this care about them, even if it's not working at the company. You'd have to be a bad person for me to be like, no, no, no, I just don't like like you as a person. I don't care about you as a person. You'd have to be a really bad person. Right. But not everybody feels that way. Right. Some people just really don't care about other people. Yeah. But they still might be good at something. Yeah. So I feel like that's the respected and you know, like yeah, authority feared type situation because they just don't care.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, but I I do feel like there's like I feel like that if I respect someone, then I also like them. Even if they're like, I don't think that I'm gonna respect someone, that's mean to other people. Yeah. Because then I won't respect them. Right. So it's like I as I was just thinking back, it's like okay, I was thinking about an old boss, and I was like, well, he's really smart, he's also kind of a dick. So no, I don't respect him, and I don't like him. Right. So I think that they go hand in hand. And I'm also perfectly comfortable saying that I could respect someone who has an attitude but's not a dick, right? Who just might be very blunt or might not be like the nicest person, but I still respect them and I also still like them. Right. And so I think it's like in the eye of the beholder, right? Like what is important for you in terms of respect, but I don't think I can separate respect and like. Like for me, I think they go together.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

I think that is true for me too. And I think to Kathy's point though, I don't think that's true for everyone. And I and I do think that there are people that can see an individual and respect them in sort of again, either a fear way or sort of like a like you've done so much for ex-field way, or there's a lot of forgiveness. It's like, well, they're kind of a jerk, but and I think the way that I feel, and it sounds like the two of you feel, is like, no, I see the whole person. Like, I need the whole person in order to actually use the word respect. And I think that goes back to my original comment. Well, how do you define respect? Because if you define it as they've done great things, that's very different than the totality of who they are as a human, yeah, is something I respect.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Well, look at how people viewed, I'll take, I'll take the non-political one, Puff Daddy, P. Diddy. Yeah, right? Like people would say he's so risk well respected in the hip hop community. When the whole documentation or uh documentary came out and all the the all the stuff that's going on with him, I was never surprised. Like, yeah, that tracks exist. You know, like I don't wouldn't want to be friends with him. Right. But some people were truly like floored by it, and some people think it's just like a hoax. And I think that not everybody separates the two, and I think that shows that.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah, yeah. I do think it's in it's funny you say that the thing about music because um Michael Jackson has a like play. Well, they have a movie now, and there's a play of Pantages, and Barrett and I were like, Oh, I would think it would be really fun to take the kids to a musical. And I was like, but I don't, I don't think we can do that. Like, I don't think we can go to the Michael Jackson musical. Like, I don't think we're doing that anymore because the totality of who he was. And then this one woman actually worked with his family and and all these things, and she was talking about it, and she's like, Well, he wasn't proven, like he never was like arrested, and all of these things didn't happen. And I was like, Okay. And it got me thinking, but it thinks about all of these characters and our lives that are like a P. Diddy or um, you know, just a variety of people. Chris Brown or Ellie. I had a number of them going on in my head. Um, but actually, our kids actually asked that about the other day. They were listening to Snoop's song in the car, and then we were talking about what OG meant, and we were talking about gangsters, and they're like, Okay, well, what was a gangster? And I was like, well, and you're trying to explain this, but it's like this idea that you can like love Snoop's music, but like, did you like all of who he was as a human? Did he make all these right choices? It's a weird thing. And when they're a bit distant from you and a bit like not in your normal day-to-day, it's like, okay, I can make up some storyline that allows for this. But when there's someone in your life that you're spending time with, that you're in community with, that you're having represent your brand, that you're in partnership with and on a deal, like that's a very different version of respect than sort of the public figure one.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah. And I think it totally comes down to how do you define it? Because you can say, like, Michael Jackson was an incredible artist.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah. Period. And then you don't have to respect or have a person conversation about it.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

I also think as you move up and become a leader, you start seeing things a little bit more clearly and seeing who people are, and maybe you don't see so much of that until you get in those positions and you start thinking about it a little differently.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Do you guys feel like you've gotten further being liked or respected or a combination of the two?

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Good question.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Like the networks and the people that you work with and gravitate towards, do you feel like it's because they respect you or because they like you or both?

SPEAKER_02 29:45

I so much of my career was networking, right? So it was it was sales-oriented. And so I do feel like in a in that environment, you have to be liked and have presence in a room and be able to navigate conversations and make people feel included and bring people in. And and so that I think got me into the rooms and into the conversations. But then the respect part happens when they're like, oh, and she delivered and she got shit done, and she looked out for me, and she protected my business. And then that's where the respect grew. But had I not, I mean, I'll very candidly, had I not had the like part, that probably wouldn't have given me as much opportunity to earn respect as as others.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Yeah. I hated networking. I it was a popularity contest, and I just hate that. And so I struggled. I struggled a lot with networking. And I, when I went over to MRK, I then just started just doing work and putting my head down and said got to do all the networking.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, but you know what's so interesting because you're actually funny. I mean, I always say that I'm the funniest, but you're actually way funnier than me. And I think like humor is such a good way to like bring down barriers, and whether it's networking in person or on the phone, like we crack jokes, and cracking the jokes gets the like. Yeah. And then to your point, like over time, we earn respect. Now, a lot of these people we've been working with for years, so they respect and like us, but they like us because we're funny and we're cool. Well, I mean, I'm cool, but like you're cooler. But you know, like I think I think that's such it's it's so important to have both. Like, you you it it's fun, right? Like we're also having fun doing it, but I do think without like, it's hard to get to respect.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

I think so much of like is the ability to laugh at yourself and use self-deprecating humor and to understand that you're not gonna take yourself too seriously. And when you do that, it's very disarming to people. And I think we do all do a very good job of that and sort of laughing at ourselves about silly things, and that just like level sets people where it's like, oh, I don't have to perform in this environment. Now we can put on our performance face and do our performance when we need to, but for the most part, and probably even in those performances, there's some of that like self-deprecating humor and yeah, more relaxed environment.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

So this is our in the news. A recent article from Workplace Peace Institute. That's a hard one, argues that the future of work is shifting away from traditional top-down leadership styles and toward more human-centered leadership rooted in collaboration, emotional intelligence, adaptability, and community. The article suggests that workplaces are increasingly valuing traits historically associated with feminine leadership, like empathy, communication, mentorship, and psychological safety, especially as burnout, disengagement, and changing workforce expectations continue to reshape professional culture. Rather than saying women should lead everything, the beast argues that the future workplace may reward leaders who can build trust, foster collaboration, and create sustainable, people-first environments instead of relying solely on authority and hierarchy. Our workplace is finally valuing leadership styles women have been bringing to the table all along. So I thought about this a lot, actually, and and I do like I very much value this type of leadership. Um, and I do very much think that a lot of women, like I understand why we are saying a more feminist leadership style, but it also really reminds me of like a sports team. So I it really to me, it triggered John Witten. I went to UCLA and his pyramid of success, and it all was about like building a team and really trusting that team and respecting the team members, everything that we're just talking about. And I do think a lot of women leaned into it. What's interesting is that I also think like men do on sports teams, and why does that not translate to the workplace? Yes. It's it's crazy that there's such a difference there.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

But um, so I'm curious what that made you guys think about as well and and such.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

I feel like you nailed it. I'm listening to Simon Sinek do an interview with a gentleman who um interviewed John Wooden like every year for like 30 years. And it's I'll send this to you. It's fascinating. And listening to how he coached, and it was it was calm, it was respectful, but it had an intense level of accountability. And it was not just the team being accountable to him, they were accountable to each other. Yeah. And it like I have like goose when I was thinking about it because I wanted to get through it. I have like nine minutes left, and then I was like, we have to all listen to this and talk about it. It was so good. And so you're right, I don't think it has to be women, but why can we not get that sports or military like team intensity into corporate environments? Like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know. Maybe we should think about that. But that's that is what is really resonating because that accountability and awareness of team is what makes people successful. It's not that the leader is something and the employee is something, it's that the team is something together. And that has resonated a ton with me when you read that news article.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my initial thought was like, I feel like we've kind of been doing this for a little while, right? Like we we've got a lot of this, but I do agree that some of that intensity we don't feel because uh I assume this is a basketball coach. Yeah, whatever. Okay, that's anyways, anyways. But I mean, you have a condensed 48, 52, I don't know, some number of minutes you have in this these games, right? What are they quarters of eight or something?

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Quarters would be four. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Four quarters of eight.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

In college, I think they're just half, but whatever. But it's fine. Glad we went there.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

But you have like I got a book for you, don't worry. 40, how however many minutes I'm bad at math, but maybe good at math. 48 minutes or 40 minutes or whatever of like this very specific thing, right? And that's the intensity that you you find. And I think in corporate America, it's a little bit more difficult because you're running a marathon, right? And and it's not that these sports teams aren't running a marathon, but they get like practice to where it's not as intense. But then, like when you run the sprint, it's very intense. And I think part of it is actually how do we create that intensity and that camaraderie and that accountability in the marathon? Because we're constantly running marathons. Like every year it's just like, oh my God, we're gonna do this one big thing, and then we're like not gonna do the big thing, but we just keep doing the big things, right? And so, you know, how do we elongate it and still really show up for each other without feeling like we're constantly sprinting?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

You that's a really, really good point. I think I said that actually in our quarterly meeting. I was like, we just finished running a marathon and we're gonna celebrate and wear the like chain and then drink a beer, and then we're gonna run another one, like because that's what's gonna happen. I am getting granular for a second, but our company operates on EOS, which is the an operating system for entrepreneurs. And what we have done is we've looked at the marathon and said, what's our like 10-year goal? And then we've broken it down to a three-year goal and a one-year goal. And then we say to our teams, what are your quarterly rocks? Right. Like these are the mini races, these are the sprints. But how, as I'm I'm brainstorming out loud in this conversation, but how do we as leaders create intensity and enthusiasm around the rocks where it doesn't necessarily feel like I'm just checking boxes, but we're gonna celebrate rocks. We are gonna, that's gonna be our basketball game, right? Is is around that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

And then I yeah, that's and then the rest of it is the practice, right? Like the rest of it can relax the intensity, all the other things that you have to do in life. But the rocks really are those intense sprints within like the longer marathon.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Um, yeah. But we have to celebrate them though. I was thinking about it, because I'm usually like, okay, you got your rocks done, great job. That was my expectation. You did what I expected, and check, check, and these didn't happen, but I understand why. And we sort of move on. But I wonder if there's a way as leaders we can think about how to celebrate some of those wins.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

John wouldn't say what did you know? I'm not big on celebrating, and I don't think he is either. I think that's part of it, is that like you are feel good about yourself, right? But it doesn't need to be this huge celebration. I I we're a little different in that respect. I think there still needs to be a space to say, like, you did the thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Like, yeah. Yes. Not saying we have to have a party, but like talk about like how important it is to complete these rocks because it means something for the company. And then when you do them, like acknowledging them in a way that feels like you didn't, I didn't just create the chart to say what percentage you completed, you know?

SPEAKER_03 38:47

I think part of this leadership style is taking away some of that ego and letting the team do the things and struggle within the thing. And I think that that is often also missed where you want to micromanage or do everything or save somebody from struggling, but there's actually a lot of growth and accomplishment feeling if you struggled and then achieved it. Yeah. But I think then the coach becomes more of, which is then the leader, more of the person that says, Great job. You did a great job there. And I think that is very important to acknowledge it. Um, I I just think that for me, then I'm I'm on to the next thing in my mind, and that's not the same for everybody. And I get that, but I try to always acknowledge it, acknowledge it in front of a group of people too. Yeah. And um I think that means a lot. So if the person has then gone through the struggle, they they know it was hard, they feel really good, and then everybody they got this acknowledgement in front of everyone that this happened.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah, that's what I mean by like celebrating is like the acknowledgement. And you do a great job of doing like really focusing on kudos and our meetings and really trying to acknowledge people. I think turning it back a little bit or looping it back to the style of leadership and these what are typically called like softer skills, creating spaces. I think it goes back to our parenting conversation, which I not everyone is a parent, but there's a lot that can be learned and gleaned from that is how do we show up for our for our children in those ways, right? Like we are doing some of those softer skills with them to grow them into the human we want them to be. And I think as leaders, that's oftentimes a really safe place that psychological safety is the consistency of behavior, knowing that no matter what you do, I will always love you. And like you can't be that intense with um an employee, but there is an acknowledgement that's like we can fail forward. Like if you fail 50 times, like we're gonna have a different conversation. But like you can make mistakes, learn from them, and don't make them again. And I think creating environments, and again, for me, my style is naming those things. And for others, it's just behaving that way or or not. But I think those softer skills are sort of a little bit more innate, but I like I like those. I think those are important. I know you guys are like, no.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

No, I think I think it's super interesting. I guess you know, with at like my kids' school, like they get X amount of compliments and then they get to have like a fake sleepover or something. It's almost like we find like a celebratory event, but it's like an annual event, right? Like it's almost like we got all the compliments, we got all our rocks, like we got 80% of our rocks, and like now let's have a pizza party or something.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Well, it's like what sales organizations do, like Barrett, yeah, Barrett's organization. Like, if you hit this thing called President's Club, which was not your goal. Like you had a goal and you had to meet your goal, but that was the expectation. You have to meet this goal. It was if you go above the goal a certain percentage, then you went, I mean, that we went to Europe like multiple times on free trips because he qualified for those trips. And there is something that felt really good. Like, I didn't just do my job, I didn't do what I was expected to do. I did more than what I was expected and I crushed it. And so therefore I am rewarded. I mean, I don't suggest we take everyone to Europe, they were wildly expensive.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Factor rewards. Like it's it's a lot about rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

And I know it's hard for it's hard sometimes to be like, oh, I don't want to reward people all the time. And I think that rewarding people for doing their job is not appropriate, but when they go above and beyond, there is a reward system, and people do react to that and they do feel cared for and they do feel appreciated when there's a small bonus. We just did that for a couple of people on this recent transaction, and that's meaningful. Yeah. Like it means a lot. And you know, I think taking the time to do that is important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

So okay. I wrap with a quote usually. Um, my quote today is people respond well to those that are sure of what they want. And it's by Anna Wintor, who was like I think is still the editor of Vogue. Um, she has a little bob and the glasses on all the time. Devil Worse Prada. Yeah, she's also in Devil Wars. Yeah, there's Meryl Streep. Yeah. Meryl Streep is her. Yeah, she's very cool. But I think it just plays into everything that we talked about today because part of what makes us feel confident, makes us show up authentically is that we really know what we want. Um, we're not like overexplaining, we're not seeking consensus, we're just saying, like, here we are, here's where showing up, and here's what we want. So um, that is my quote for today. And thanks, guys. Good episode.