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Brian Hatch | Community Engagement Manager CCPG

• Evive Gambling Support

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Before there were gambling recovery podcasts, there was Brian Hatch. A decade after launching All In: The Addicted Gambler Podcast — the first of its kind — Brian is now Community Engagement Manager at the Connecticut Council on Problem Gambling, running peer recovery groups inside a correctional facility and producing Connecticut's first gambling-specific recovery retreat. In this episode he walks through his return to sports card collecting after 10 years of casino recovery, makes the case that prediction markets and card breaks are gambling full stop, and shares the philosophy that keeps him going when the work gets heavy: focus on the person in front of you.  

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.


SPEAKER_03

Brian Hatch.

SPEAKER_01

Brian Hatch. I mean, every time you know, he's just the best. Every time I talk to him, whether it's like, you know, via text or on the phone or he's on the podcast or this podcast. I mean, he's just he's just so cool. He's so funny. He just makes you smile. Like I was just smiling the whole time he's talking.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he's just so easy to connect with. And and he, you know, he's I think I can speak for me. Like he was the first podcast that I listened to, him and Jamie Salzberg's podcast. Like, but I remember it changing things too. Like, he was just such a compassionate interviewer. But then I remember when he brought on the the series of gambling got the girls, he he let a couple of ladies, um, Tiffany and Danielle, take over the podcast for like a six season, six-episode series. And I just love that he was just so open to that conversation and wanting to make sure that that women could hear themselves in these experiences and things like that. And so that always changed things for me. And he was the first person to reach out to me after I released the Burke Girl Society. And he's like, Hey, do you I'd love to connect and have a chat? And he just yeah, he just, you know, and we've been friends ever since. And that's awesome. You know, we've done a lot of projects together, we do a lot of presenting together, and it's just always fantastic to see what an impact he's made in the space. And totally always happy to have that conversation with him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he's he's awesome. And I and I think that like I really liked the fact that this episode that you're about to hear, it wasn't him telling his story. Like, and if you haven't heard his story, just type in Brian Hatch and you're gonna see that he's been on a million places. You know, we we talked about the story a little bit, but we really wanted to dive into post-recovery, right? Like, like what was recovery like for him, what was starting the podcast like, and then you know, what all the amazing work he's doing in the space, working for the Connecticut Council on prom gambling. So, you know, I think uh I definitely learned some stuff that I didn't know about him and what he does.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and you know, everything about this episode is perfect except my audio. My audio is bad. This is a prop. This is not plugged into anything. I'm gonna go buy a new microphone right now. Sam, David, I apologize. The content is there, audio might not be as good, but one time thing.

SPEAKER_00

And then maybe maybe we can we can adjust my voice in the after show so it doesn't I'm gonna I'm gonna try to fix this in post, but I mean it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01

And we can blame my cat. My cat did this.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that, and I'm doing this with bronchitis as well. So true.

SPEAKER_01

Like can we get one bronchitis laugh? Can we get one bronchitis?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, okay. Now I'm gonna now we gotta go. I gotta go cough this out.

SPEAKER_01

All right, here we go. Here's our here's our conversation with Brian Hatch. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons from the Modern Meeting Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook from the Broke Girl Society, and today's guest, Christina, look who we got.

SPEAKER_00

My buddy Hatch.

SPEAKER_01

Brian Hatch, all in the Addicted Gamblers Podcast. I mean, the uh the list of credentials is endless. We're gonna get into all of it. But Brian, thank you so much for coming on eVive live. Thanks for having me. Technically, I don't have that many credentials. Christina has way more than me. Oh, maybe it's accolades is the right word. Like, you know, all his accomplishments and all the things that he's done, right?

SPEAKER_00

So many. And people are gonna be watching this thinking, well, is this the Bet Free Life? Are they finally doing another episode?

SPEAKER_02

People are gonna watch this and go, Who is that guy? He hasn't done anything in quite a while.

SPEAKER_00

So we're we're thoroughly confusing people, but I'm really excited to, you know, have this conversation with my buddy Hatch and talk about all the amazing things that you have done in this space. And I just want to start out by like, for those of you who aren't familiar with Brian Hatch and his podcast, All in Addicted Gambler, he was one of the first people to put out. Um, he was the first person to put out gambling, um, his gambling story in podcast format and and how that just changed the game for all of us. Um, if you want to know more about his story, he talks a lot about it on the podcast and like a bunch of different other podcasts. You know, I think we have a bet-free life episode on the modern meeting episode. So we're not really gonna delve into your story so much for this episode. Um, but would you mind kind of just giving us a cliff notes version of how you started the podcast and um kind of what started the podcast, I guess?

SPEAKER_02

Uh I had gone, I was living in California, and I was at the end of 14 years of gambling, and I had been in out of GA, and it worked great. Um, but then relapses. And uh so I'd gone to GA in California. It was a little different out there for whatever reason. Whatever reason, at the end of the meeting, they would it was like a quiz, and they would just point at you and ask you something about that happened in the meeting and that felt too much pressure. I got anxiety, and so I didn't go, I didn't, I only went to a handful of meetings, I didn't go back. And so when I had to stop because I was just too much in debt and like lost the last dollar in Vegas, um I was like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna do this differently this time? I have to do something different. And so I listened to podcasts and I was like, oh let me see if anyone else is doing this. Nope. Yeah, let's start a podcast. Uh so my buddy Chris, who was the first person in my life to be like, hey man, you got a problem, you need to stop. Uh he uh I reached out to him and I was like, Hey, you wanna do this podcast with me? You can kind of host it and ask me about my story, and I'll tell my story. And so that's how it started. Just me telling my story over like 10 episodes, and then I, you know, ran out of my story and then got some emails from people and then they told their story, and eventually I met you both.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that's a good version for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Part of the reason why I love this today is because I get to ask you all the questions that I didn't get to ask you when you were on the modern meeting, even though we talked for like an hour and a half and it was a two-part episode. But um, my first question for you is you know, knowing your story and how, you know, you uh when you were out in LA, you tried out stand-up comedy, you were doing improv, you wrote a book, you you were doing all these, you know, creative things. Um, once you got into the podcast, so you know, it's it's it's performative. We all know it's a little performative, but it's also just being so vulnerable and just telling your story. What was that like for you where you were kind of using those creative muscles, but now it's like, okay, like this is also real life, and I'm bearing my soul for anyone to hear.

SPEAKER_02

Well, first, I have to tell you, Adam, that um that episode that I did with you, well, the two episodes, I guess, um, that was like the best version of my story. I did I did one other that may be up there with it for some um these guys who they're they do a card counting podcast and they had me on to tell my gambling addiction story. And that was really good on there. But on your podcast, it was it was like that was really great. Like I felt great. Yeah, that was all you it was awesome, yeah. I will say, Adam, please don't take this as this is just constructive, it's not even criticism. But I noticed because you split it into two parts and I see the number, Adam, of one versus the other. And I think people don't find their way to part two because in part one, I look like a relatable fellow in a hat and a sweatshirt. And in part two, you put me in a suit and I look like a douche who's unrelatable. Oh, people see that and go, I don't want that guy, looks like he's from the industry. I don't want to talk to him.

SPEAKER_01

Oh no, it can't be a good one.

SPEAKER_02

Put out that thumbnail, I think you'll either.

SPEAKER_01

I'm changing the thumbnail. I thought you looked great. You were in a sharp suit. I thought you looked awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Sharp suit, I saw that. I was like, where'd he oh, he stole that from the website? Um I always got a kick in life out of telling people the worst parts about me to make them laugh. Because I and so I've that's always sort of been what I did to get a laugh from friends. Plus to kind of make their mind go, oh, you did what? And uh I guess the podcast is just a lot of that. So I guess I'm just vulnerable in general. Like if I don't have many secrets, and if I do, eventually they come out because I'm like, hey, guess what? This happened. I can't hold back information, so I wouldn't make a good CIA operative because I'd be like, hey man, you know what the government did?

SPEAKER_00

I can 100% speak to this too, like just knowing you over the years. And when I just had somebody reach out to me the other day that they had found our presentation that we did in Nevada a couple years ago. Yeah, and so they were just saying how much they really love the um video, and so I was like, man, I haven't watched that in a long time. And I went back in and I and it's on um the Nevada Council's um YouTube page. I think I know what you're referring to. Right where to go. Yes, and you were going through a hard personal time, and in this video, you openly talk about it in a self-deprecating kind of way, just to so that you're laughing about it, the audience is laughing about it with you. And it's a way that you took a very vulnerable situation that you were in, but you used it to really reach people in the audience. Like it was a fantastic presentation in the way that like I'm not saying that's always gonna be somebody's angle, like to take what they're going through and and use it as a way to connect. And and but I think that that really changed how people were relating to us in this presentation. I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I that trip was amazing. Well, a the presentation with you, it's always fun working with you because you're easy to work with and you know all how I am, and I kind of know how what you do, and so it's it's a good give and take. But that trip was amazing because, like we mentioned a minute ago, I placed my last bet in Vegas and I hadn't been back. And I I think I told you, Christine, on that trip. Like, I I've never eaten a meal in Vegas, I've never seen a show in Vegas, and so we went to Vegas. Granted, the hotel we were at was way off the strip, but going back there and not gambling and enjoying that city without gambling was an incredible experience. And being able to walk around a casino alone with cash in my pocket, not only not placing a bet, but not wanting to place a bet, because it like eventually in my brain, I kind of came to the conclusion that there's never enough money, and so it doesn't like it doesn't matter if I gamble because I'll just gamble it all away. Like, there's no escaping that. So once I kind of realized that it I felt very powerful. Like, oh, I'm I'm not gonna go to a casino every day, but I can go to one. And I've been to a few now to see a concert, but that trip was incredible for that. And I think that was we took a picture in front of the fountain at Bellagia where I placed my last bet, holding up 10 fingers. Um, because it was 10 years since I placed my last bet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I was doing like that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It was actually, I mean, it was literally, I think, to the day, nine years and ten months to the day.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, how do you go from someone who lived the life that you lived in and then just was like, you know what? I wanna, I wanna, I wanna make this my life. Like, I know it's a it seems like a broad question, but it's a question that a lot of people ask us. It's like, because you know, like Christina says, 95% of people in recovery, they're worrying about recovery and they're living their lives. And then there's the 5% of us that make it everything, that we we work in it. And so, like, what kind of eventually drew you into wanting to give back and work in the space?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I did the podcast for seven years. I paid for it out of my own pocket for seven years before somebody was like, Hey, do you want a sponsor? Right, and so it never occurred to me to make money. Um, and I always I I always worked crappy jobs, right? Because my gambling got me kicked out of college, so I never graduated, so I was always working hourly wage, junky hourly wage. Like I've never had money. And when I moved to Connecticut, because my ex-wife got a job in Connecticut. Um, I was still doing the podcast, but I was a stay-at-home dad at the time. So we had just moved here. And then I reached out to some people because of the podcast in Connecticut, just like, hey, come, you want to come be on a podcast? Which I'm sure you guys have both uttered thousands of times at this point. Uh and they did, and then I met them, and then a few projects came up where they were like, Hey, do you want to help with this project? And I'm already spending every day talking about my gambling. And so I was like, Yeah, and it was a youth media project where um they give these small grants out to different youth programs throughout the state to come up with PSAs about gambling harm. And so I I I I MC'd that basically. Um, I actually edited the videos and then I MC'd it. And so that's how I got in. And one of the people who work in our treatment program said, Hey, I'm hiring a peer for my program. Do you want to apply? And so, I mean, I think she was like, Do you want the job? But she was like, You can apply. And so I did that, and I worked in treatment as a peer for two and a half years, which was an awesome job, paid like shit, but it was an awesome job. And then with divorce, like I can't, there's no more two incomes, and I have two kids, so I had to get a big boy job, and luckily, you know, in the same field in the same I mean, it's all it's a small ecosystem of people, right? Like, you guys know all the people I know, and so they were nice enough to they had a position opening up at the council, and so it was really my first real job that paid a decent living wage. Um, I have never had that. Uh, but plus the work, like I love, it's frustrating as hell. Don't get me wrong. Like, you guys know what you can say on your podcast, you wouldn't say in certain circles of your work in this field, because you know, recovery you and gambling you is different from professional you, who understands the relationships that are involved in order to make this helping ecosystem thrive. And so that wasn't a hard transition because uh Jeff Wasserman, who works at the Delaware Council and did the podcast with me for a long time, I would always mouth off on the podcast, and then he would bring me back down to Earth and be like, this is the reality, Brian. Which is funny because recently I talked to Jeff and he was kind of going the other way where I was talking him down because he was mouth off. That's awesome. Uh but it's disappointing in a way, but I like I just told my boss the other day, I was like, I love my job, it's frustrating, but I love it because I it's the one-on-one, and I think that's why I don't do the podcast as often anymore either, is because I get very satisfied working locally, like in person with people, and I have an ability to do things that I never would have been able to do with the podcast. Like we had a recovery retreat last year, our first one, Christina came and talked, and it was amazing. People loved her, and she's gonna come back for part two this year, and you know, I there there's there's small talk of of the possibility, uh, and I've we're we've taken some steps of doing a gambling addiction musical, which sounds crazy, but uh I love it. So there's opportunities that I get to do now. I get to come up with ideas and go, can we do this? And they're like, Yeah, do it. So I just loving what I do, but don't get me wrong, like half my adult life has been spent gambling, the other half has been spent talking about gambling. And sometimes I get tired with gambling, which I Christina, you know, recently I was not well recently, and uh I think it's because it all just kind of caught up with me. But I'm a lot better now. And like I said, I love my job. I'm like, look, I'm on the clock right now talking about what I do for work to you guys. So it's it's great. And it introduces me to cool people who I really enjoy. Few, few people I don't enjoy, but mostly cool.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I think you kind of just really touched on the fact, you know, that it's not easy to step from just being a person in recovery into a person who works on this side of it, right? So just to Adam's point and your point, you spent a lot of time gambling, and now you're spending a lot of time talking about gambling in some form. And the fact that there's not a lot of income available to work in the space if you're not a clinician or somebody. Um, and I remember talking to you before you even started working the peer work or doing any of that. And you've always had a desire to help people one-on-one. That's from the moment I've met you, Brian, you've always had that desire to just help people one-on-one, you know, race the barriers to help, right? To somebody, and your catchphrase and our catchphrase on the Bet Free Life was always talking helps, right? Just having those one-on-one conversations and doing this work. Did you ever feel like when you started that podcast, this was gonna be a legacy for you and take you down the path where you're able to help so many people and impact so many people the way that you have?

SPEAKER_02

I'm laughing because you said legacy, and all I pictured was like an asteroid taking out the earth, and nobody has any idea any of us existed ever.

SPEAKER_00

Uh of course.

SPEAKER_02

No, I I just I like I really enjoy talking to people when I'm in the mood. I'm not always in the mood, but I enjoy connecting, especially with new people. Like, I find people's stories fascinating. And so when I took the peer job, I was literally said to my boss at the time, like, this is exactly what I do on the podcast. Like, you just you relate to people, right? Like that uh, my favorite thing to relate to with other casino gamblers is when we would instead of standing up like a normal person and moving, but when they're vacuuming at four in the morning, just pick up your legs instead of like getting up. And other people who do that, they'd laugh at that, and it's because we both had that experience of like, no, I'm too addicted to this to gambling that I don't want to get up. Uh, so I just enjoy that. And and I some people are like, oh, therapy, that's stupid. And I'm not saying you got to talk to a clinician, but just talking to anybody, right? Like two guys at a bar talking about life is is exactly what I'm doing on the podcast, exactly what I'm sure you guys do. I mean, that's pure work. You know, you share your experience, you listen to what they said, and and you try to relate to people. And I I try to just be nice, and I, you know, sometimes I my humor can get in the way of uh being helpful, but I can't help myself sometimes.

SPEAKER_01

So it's so funny, and this is this is why I love I love this. Uh like five minutes ago, I wrote down the word humor, and I just kept underlining it as you were talking, and then you just mentioned it. Where that's one of the things I love about you, and I love about your podcast, and you know, even being at the Connecticut conference, umcing, you know, cracking people up. Like, talk about the importance of humor and the importance of you know doing the work and being there to support people, but also I feel like you do a really good job of balancing, you know, keeping it light and and and injecting some humor into the situation, no matter how shitty it may be.

SPEAKER_02

Adam, that is I I love that you said that because earlier you said you were talking about the stand-up and stuff, and it just made me think like, oh, maybe this. So, well, first of all, I when I got into this space, you start meeting people nationally and hearing people who talk, and it's like not everybody is a born person who can speak in front of people, but they have information you need to hear, so they do. I always had a problem with messaging because I thought, man, this needs to be a little more relatable, a little more entertaining. And over time, I think more and more people are that way, but you know, it comes down to sometimes you got it, sometimes you don't, type of thing. And some people are just uh more not necessarily entertaining but relatable when they talk. Um and so I like I said, I can't help myself. So I run a group in a prison, and those guys will talk and talk, and it I was blown away at how vulnerable a group of guys who are incarcerated can be. And in fact, it's it I mean, that's the favorite part of my job is are those groups that are running there because I I've learned so much from these guys who are just like good people. Like that, I'm not people are gonna listen to that and be like, oh yeah, murders are great people. No, no, no. I'm not in groups with people who committed felonies like that. I'm in going through addictions unit to speak with people who maybe have other addictions or maybe gambling addiction or whatever. Um, but it's it's amazing to learn in there. But they'll get into some deep stuff, and then you know, a group of guys who I sort of know, but there's always new guys in these groups. I'll just throw in a joke or pick on somebody a little bit, and it it and it plays, and it's just such a relief when that happens. But Adam, like uh I I I started doing stand up and improv when I was 19 because I got kicked out of college and I was like, what do I really want to do? And that's what I want to do. And so I started. I started both then and I was doing decent. I started to get paid to do both. And then gambling got in the way. And I don't give a damn about any of the money I lost. I give a damn about that that I loved doing that I lost. And part of the reason I lost is because all of my that muscle that was funny turned into anger. It was just angry. It was angry at me and my life. And I was angry at what I had done. And you know, once you get angry, it's sometimes it's a good motivator, but it didn't make me very productive. It just made me kind of cope. And so I just gambled and gambled and hung out in bars, and it wasn't a great way to live. So I like the humor because I think people in life find that most relatable. Not to go down this road, but I'm convinced that's why we have the present we do is because people find them funny. And like people funny is a powerful thing. If people find you funny, they'll listen to what you say. And I just that's always who I've been at my core. I'm not saying I'm hilarious, I'm just saying like I always search for that funny thing to say, but I'm also not that guy at a group of comedians who's like, let's all tell jokes to each other. I don't, I can't stand that crap. But I do think thrown in a little humor, and I'm not a big muscly guy who's chiseled it with a chin and a jawline, so humor is how you know I went on dates.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So you you as you were talking just now, and you're talking about the past, um, you know, being someone who's worked in Pier for a while, and I just, you know, recently got my IGRS and I'm starting to work with people, a common thing that keeps coming up, and I I feel like I answer it differently every time, and I want to get your opinion on it. When someone is early in recovery and they're struggling to let go of the past, they're struggling to, you know, they they can't get over the fact that they lost all the money, or they can't get over the fact that they burned all those bridges and they can't let go. What is your advice to those people?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, time heals all. It's I stole money from my grandfather. He never found out, he died. And every time somebody would bring up my grandfather, I would cry. Like I couldn't control that. And eventually one day it went away. Doesn't mean that I still don't feel bad about it, but I can talk about it without making myself out to be a horrible human being. Because if you live with that kind of guilt, you're never gonna live, you're never gonna recover if you just blame yourself constantly. But I think that takes time, that's why relapses happen because people are like, well, F it. I'm never gonna feel good, so why not just do the bad thing? But eventually, you know, you get it. Eventually, it just kind of kicks in. And eventually you hear enough other people's experiences, right? Like, I'm sure when you're talking to them, you're sharing. Nobody in that moment wants to hear, like, it'll get better. It's not better now. Like, I need immediacy. That's why we gamble. We want immediate satisfaction. But recovery isn't that.

SPEAKER_00

Um I'm a big advocate for shame not being a recovery plan, you know, where a lot of times, you know, you go in there in the shame of everything that you've done to feed the addiction or stay in the addiction. Like oftentimes people just start really like using that. Um, and I know that there's probably ways you can use it as motivation, you know, to move through that and move away from it. But I think, you know, the hard truths and the real heaviness is not going to be a motivating factor and should never be a motivating factor. You know, I think you're absolutely right that time really does a lot of work on that. And as we continue to do our own recovery and our own healing and move in a healthier way, like we can look at those situations in a healthier way and be like, yeah, what I did was not good. And but I've done all of this since, and you know, and I think that that motivates more than than the shame.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, I would think anybody that you've you've hurt in your gambling, maybe not in the short term, but eventually they'll they're happy that you're figuring it out, that you're trying. All you can do is try. And I tried, I went to GA and things were great for a few years, and then out of the blue, gambled again, relapsed. Um, it's harder now to be unaware of when I do something that's not necessarily gambling, but addictive and kind of gets me away from being productive or living life or playing with my kids. Like, because I know it's from the addiction of gambling and all of that, like I'm very aware of what behaviors I'm doing that aren't good. And that's hard because then in my head I'm like, you know all the answers, just skip to the end, Brian, and let's move on with this stupid thing you're doing. So that's yeah, it's my gripe with recovery, is it makes you realize very aware of uh when something's not good for you?

SPEAKER_01

Great segue to the next question, which was you know, I know you've presented on hobbies like card collecting, online gaming, how they've quietly become like unregulated gambling ecosystems. Walk us through that. And did you have any experience with that? Or you know, what inspired you to kind of shed some light on that before a lot of people did?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, Adam, if you could see my bedroom right now. Um it's like I'm torturing myself. I yeah, I uh like I just said, bad behaviors. Um when I was still married, I I hadn't collected cards in since I was a kid. So it was like 15, 14, 13, I don't know, somewhere in there. And so I had these cards sitting around, and I I don't know, I had just come across, I don't know, maybe a YouTube video or something, or maybe just oh no, I watched uh documentary on minimalism and I was like, I want to get rid of all my stuff. And uh not I, you know, it was a good motivating factor because that's what I would always do when I was I had something about purging when I had a gambling addiction. Like I would get home and just get rid of it, just feels like too much where I can't concentrate on something because there's so many other things going on and a bunch of junk, and I just want to clear out the junk so I can concentrate on this one thing. And so that's what I was trying to do. I was like, I gotta get rid of my stuff. This is laying around. Like, I don't I don't want to die at 90 and somebody have to clean out my home. So I found my old baseball cards, and then I found some that I was like, oh, this is probably because I'm a huge baseball fan, clearly I'm wearing a hat. And I found a Derek Jeter gold rookie card. And I was like, oh, I could probably sell this rather than just get rid of it. So I sold it, and then I found some YouTube videos, and then all of a sudden I was like, whoa, card collecting has changed. And they had these things called breaks, where instead of buying a box of cards, which you know, when I was a kid, packs were 50 cents. Now, if you go buy a single pack at the store, it's like eight bucks. So a box was 20 bucks when I was buying packs. Now that box is three, four, five, six, seven hundred dollars. So they have these things called breaks now that you can do where you just buy a team, you bid on a team on eBay or on whatnot or any of these apps, and you just get the cards from that team. So you're spending 40, 50, 60 bucks to get all the cards from that team from this. And then through doing that, and the price of the boxes, it just clicked where I was like, oh, this is just pulling a lotto ticket out of a box now. Like it's not about collecting for many, it is. There's I there's plenty of good card collectors out there who are still collecting because they enjoy it, and I enjoyed the collecting aspect. I I like um curating the collection. I I'm a big set collector, I love collecting a full set, which is really worthless if you look on eBay. But I like the process of it, but it's way too expensive to really do. But I got heavy into it, and at the time there was a player named Wander Franco, and he was the big chase card that year in 2022, and I went all in on him, and I just kept buying breaks to get his cards, and I had so many of his cards, and then he turned out to be a piece of junk who did bad things and got kicked out of the league, and so all his cards went to worthless. And that's when I went, This is this is why you don't do this. Like the the bottom literally fell out on the biggest play. I mean, I have plenty of other cards. So now, being a divorced individual who uh makes enough money to live, but still has gambling debt and still has bills and kids and all that stuff, I'm like, well, I could throw all these cards out or I could sell them. And so I spend some free time selling them on eBay trying to get rid of them. I've thrown cards out. I think six months ago, I threw out like 5,000 cards. I just chucked them in the trash. Get out of my life. And every day, I they used to be in boxes in the cupboard, and I stuck them all on a shelf over here as like a get rid of this crap type of thing. And so I list, you know, some periodically, and I'm not the guy who's gonna hold out for the best price. I'm the guy who's like, eh, make an offer, get rid of it. You know, I I sold a card today that netted me after all 60 cents. So I drive to that post office for 60 cents. Um, so eventually I may throw out those types of cards, but I do have some others, and I mean I hate the idea of staying involved with it, but I still find it fascinating and interesting. I don't do what I used to do with them, but I do need to get rid of them, and so that's what I do. But it it's crazy. The videos out there, people spending thousands upon thousands to get a card that they're never gonna get. And the good collectors will tell you like it's you're never gonna get that card. They'll they'll say, just buy the card you want. By the time you buy all these boxes of cards and enter into all these breaks, just take that money and buy that card. And it reminds me of when I was gambling, like, just go buy a TV. Like, I'm I'm trying to win money, but what am I winning money for? Like, what's my end goal?

SPEAKER_01

Just go buy that air fryer. You don't need to, you don't need to get all the points to get, yeah. Now, when you were at the height of this, when you were at the height of this and you were noticing that, you know, what am I doing? Like, was there ever a point where you started getting nervous that it could lead to going back to gambling? Because it is pretty similar, you know what I mean, as far as the similar, and I would, I mean, I would call it gambling.

SPEAKER_02

I I mean I said on the podcast when I brought this up years ago, I was like, I I I don't know. I didn't casino gambling was the harmful gambling to me, right? Yeah. Like if my buddies want to play golf and they're like loser buys lunch, I'm not changing my date because I lost at a golf game and then bought somebody lunch. But casino gambling was the thing, and so that was the harmful thing that I know got me going. Now I learned again that cards were just like gambling. So in that podcast that I talked about it, I said, you know, I relapsed on my recovery for sure. Like I because what I did wasn't a healthy behavior, and I eventually realized it was gambling, but I continued to do it, and so I definitely relapsed on my recovery. I I like I said I haven't gambled in a casino. So change my date and actually I don't like dates don't matter, right? Like it don't gamble today. People get hung up on dates and clean time and the rules of certain programs of this amount of clean time for this sort of thing, but it's my life, they're not living it, and I know that I haven't gambled in a casino, messed up on the cards. The worst part about that was getting caught. Because I felt like right back to the gambling of like because when I gambled, I was single. Nobody, you know, other than confessing to people, they didn't know. And so when my wife at the time was like, What's this payment? And I went, I like my brain was like, What lie can I tell? And that was another sign, like this is I'm back to gambling. So I definitely relapsed on my my recovery. Um, but getting caught was the best thing because that stopped it for the most part. I mean, I I still bought some cards every now and then, and and there's a good guy who talks about this. Um collector's MD started up, Alex Efron. And so that was nice to talk to him about this because it's it's not everyone can relate, but then you know, I was working the helpline one day. No, I was in treatment when I was a peer, and one of my clients had a card addiction, and they sent them to me because they knew about mine. And then I've answered a few helpline calls like that, too. So a lot of things have become gambling now, and a lot of it's geared towards kids, and that's gross to me. And, you know, one of our gambling operators in our state, who has a sports book, also is the owner of these cards, these sports cards. And so my fear is that kids are being groomed to gamble for sure, but it also exists, like you said, in online games, and there's just so many little things that are now designed to be addictive, you know, the prediction market apps, just gambling apps. I like we should really stop calling them prediction. It's the gambling apps, you're gambling. Crypto's gambling. Like the stock market is gambling, but you know, if you're doing long-term investing, you're doing it in a way that there's it's back to well, how do I know if I have a gambling addiction? You know, you just don't want to admit it. Like, you know if something's bad for you, you know if you keep losing, you know if you're down or up. I mean, if you gamble and you're up and you're loving life, God bless you, man. I couldn't do it. I I won't do it again. But my brain is always searching for something that's gambling-like. I I've learned that, like, it just does. It's like, ooh, money. But money has the motivation for money has completely derailed my life and ruined many happy times and took away the thing I love doing most. So, pursuit of money, you need it to live, so it sucks. That's why gambling addictions suck so much, different than other addictions, because you have to have money to live. You can't live without money. I mean, can't get to another state without paying tolls. So it's hard to have an addiction that just bankrupts you of your lifeblood of money.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, you you bring up a great point with like the prediction the prediction markets. It's like if, you know, I've I've gone up and down as far as how I feel about the industry, the operators, but like if there's one thing right now that truly disgusts me, and I I will say it on Evive Live, it's these things that everyone knows it's gambling, yet we won't call it gambling. Like, prediction markets is gambling. There's no gray area, it's black and white, it's gambling. So who like what needs to happen for us to at least have these companies be transparent enough to call it what it is?

SPEAKER_02

They they won't ever. They're they're they're making I think it's a bigger conversation as to corporations in general, but I mean they've learned that they can make money this way. It's the same way like uh stake and fliff and all those offshore. I mean, there's they're sweepstakes, right? They're they're sweepstakes. So they skirt the gambling laws and they're sweepstakes, and so people use them, and that's where crypto comes in because you can use crypto to gamble on those sites and then convert it over to money. My thing, like with online gambling, I over time I've cared less about sports betting because people just want to do it and whatever. I still feel like it's the online casino to me that's just horribly addictive and shouldn't be allowed because there's nothing like if this is sports betting, there's some sort of competition that creates the outcome of your bet. Online blackjack and online slots are not that. You're literally, it's just a a repetitive motion of hoping that things line up and big lights and coins pop. And that there's nothing redeeming, there's nothing valuable about that. And I'm always confused by people, how they don't question, like, how do they know the people on the other side of that are just like, we're never gonna let them win? Right. I mean, based just anecdotally from people I've talked to who use those apps, they all won at the beginning. They all won at the beginning. And it's like, well, yeah, yeah, they enticed you in and they got you to win. And we all know one of those big early warning signs is win winning at the beginning. And once they got you, they got you. And same with the prediction where somebody figured out, like, well, it's uh it's contracts and it's the stock market, it's not gambling, but it is gambling because the stock market is gambling, like anything of value is something you know that you risk is gambling. But I man, I'm glad we're talking about this because this is what's been bugging me lately. But it's like no one's ever people want to do what they want to do. And there's an entire culture of people out there who just want easy, fast cash, and it doesn't exist. You know who gets the easy, fast cash? People who own these companies, you know. When like sports cards, you know who makes money on an investing in a sports card? Somebody already has a million bucks because they can buy the expensive card that goes up. Small cards don't go up like that. Like you it just people who already have money make money, and people who don't have money, that's the allure of gambling is that lottery ticket, and that's what gets us all in the door. And then nobody really realizes like it's not gonna happen. One of the greatest lines I ever saw. There was a, I'm sure you guys watched it, the the Hulu documentary series, I think. I don't know if the whole thing was on gambling, but one of the episodes was definitely on gambling. It was called Action or something. Well, one of these guys, longtime Vegas guy, he said, where people make the mistake is they come to Vegas and they bet a dollar expecting to win 50. You need to come to Vegas and bet a dollar hoping to win two. And people just want that quick flash to the top. That I mean, that's why everyone plays the megamillions and the Powerball. That's one, you can't two, we can't fathom like there's 330 million people in the country, so I don't know, 100 million people can buy a Powerball ticket. And like that, you your odds, like you can't our brain can't fathom those kind of odds. Like, until you see all people in one place, and even that doesn't register.

SPEAKER_03

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_02

Like, so you're you're never gonna win. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. Somebody's gonna win, though, right? But then that's all the gambler thinks. Someone's gonna win. Someone, yeah, someone's gonna win. I mean, if I don't tell people not to gamble, you wanna go gamble? You wanna go do that? Do it, man. I hope you win. Please take the industry's money, but yeah, odds are it's not happening.

SPEAKER_00

You know, you're kind of talking about those odds, and I met a young, a young kid recently who was in recovery um from gambling. And when I was talking to him, he's probably 21, maybe. And he was just he's like two months into recovery. You know, I think believe his parents stepped in, got him into recovery. And when I was talking to him, you know how they say that kids' brains aren't usually developed until they're like 25, right? I could tell he was a super intelligent kid. Super intelligent kid. He was so hyper hyper focused on the odds. And he was like, So you were a slot player. And I was like, Yeah, he's like, Those are the words odds in in gambling. And I was just like, Well, I wasn't I wasn't gambling for the odds, I was gambling to escape my life. Um, but it was just really interesting the lack of like connection of why the the gambling got out of control or you know what else was going on in his life that that gambling really took hold because we know that most people can gamble normally, right? We're just part of the special club that can't, and there's so many more reasons, right?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know what normally is anymore. Like you say that, and I've been having this conversation lately. I I'm really bothered because a lot of people in our field say they always give the caveat of it's only one to two percent, which it's one to two percent of the general population. So of the people who gamble, that is higher. Also, it's called the hidden addiction because people lie and say they don't have an addiction. So you're never gonna get a true prevalence rate. Also, it's on the phone now, and no prevalence study has been done since we started doing this online gambling thing, and the ads are everywhere. So the gambling rate, that the addiction rate is gotta be higher. So it bothers me because if this was heroin, we all wouldn't be giving the caveat of like, oh, not a lot of 0.4% of the population get addicted to heroin. You'd be like, don't do heroin. But we don't do that with gambling because it's socially acceptable, but it's still addictive, and heroin's gonna kill you faster, but gambling's gonna make life more difficult faster.

SPEAKER_00

So very interesting perspective there. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02

But that goes back to that goes back to playing ball when you work in a field like this, of having to understand things that you both know what I'm talking about. That uh, you know, it's but it just bothers me that we always give that excuse of the caveat, like we always side with the gambling. Like it's okay, most people can do it. I you know, other than social media where people stick their wins out there and are like, What I want. Like when I talk to guys in prison who still gamble, and they come to the group and they still gamble, and I love that because I can ask them things, and and and I'm not telling them not to gamble. Do what you want, man. But you know, my question is always, Well, you up or down? And one guy he's like, I'm up, and I'm like, that's awesome. That's all I'm glad somebody is. I'm happy somebody is. Get that money, take it and hold it and run away with it. Don't give it back. And I, you know, like with sports button I think a lot of people just like it makes the game more interesting, right? And I people who gamble and then don't gamble stop watching sports. They're like, this isn't as much fun, just watching dudes run with each other. So I'm glad gambling didn't get in the way of my love of baseball, but I'm an old man at heart who likes slow games. Uh but it the online casino and like prediction markets just seem like such a I saw one where they were talking about the I'm blanking as his name, but the the president of Ukraine, because somebody had said, will he wear a suit to the White House this time? He was wearing an outfit and the question was like, well, is this a suit or not? Because it was like in between. And it's like, well, how is that how do you how does that get resolved on the app when you gamble money? And but again, it's like this it's frustrating to say all this and do all this work, and people just are it's hard to realize, and this is true of everything, like people are just gonna do what they're gonna do, and you have to let go, and you gotta help the one in front of you who's asking for help. You can only really help the people who are asking for it, and for those people, I think all three of us are here for that individual. Um, Christina's funny talking about the odds. I had a client when I was in treatment who same thing, and he's going on and on about odds and odds. And I'm nodding along, and I'm nodding along. And he did the same thing. He's like, What would you give? I was like, Well, I did this, this, and this, but you know, I was playing slot slot because I enjoyed the surprise of I don't know how much money I'm gonna win, type of thing. And he, you know, oh, that's stupid. And he kept giving me odds of his game, and then so he was done talking, and I looked at him and I said, Well, you sound like you're really good at gambling, but you're sitting here with me, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_01

No, and that's that's like that's the thing, too. Not only is it the hidden addiction, but like people who are in it still, a lot of them are in denial, right? Like they just remember the win. They don't remember the 20 losses before that one win, right? Like, I that's how I used to be like a future win.

SPEAKER_02

We're like, uh it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. Like it's just like it's like, well, no, no, no, no. Let's like let's really break this down. Like, yes, you have a VIP host and you just uh went to the masters, but like, can we look at your wins and losses for the year? You know what I mean? Like, and so like you said, people are gonna do what they're gonna do, but there's gotta be a way moving forward that because the landscape has changed so much, not just in the last five years, but when I think of when I first started gambling, you and I are similar in age, like when we first started gambling, you had to drive miles to find a casino, right? And now you fucking open your pocket, you you it's in your pocket, you know. But we could we could go another two hours on this like we did last time. I uh we we gotta ask you the e Vive Live question. Last question is what gives you hope? What gives you hope that we can start, you know, making some progress, we can start breaking down some of these barriers. Like, what gives you hope for the industry and just for the recovery space in the future?

SPEAKER_02

Nothing gives me hope for the gambling industry.

SPEAKER_01

Right, yeah, not the industry, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Not the industry, they're making money, right? You gotta rule with a steel, they're doing okay. They're doing okay, they're fine, they don't need any hope until someone tells them no, they're gonna keep going. Um you know, I there's just there's there's more talk. Like Christina, like you guys said beginning, like when I started my podcast, nobody else is doing that. And now look, you both are doing podcasts, and you've reached people, and and like the the the spider web, or what's the thing Christina you always say, but the the ripple, the ripple effect.

SPEAKER_00

There are more people you started it for me for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, this is like the Brian Hatch coaching tree, like it started with you, and it's all we're all brand new.

SPEAKER_02

I you guys all would have been doing it anyway. Eventually you've been like, hey, that's a good way to do that. Uh but I it's it's it's that the more I guess going back to just being there for the person who needs help, right? Like, I I get frustrated constantly, but when I'm sitting in front of an individual who's just like talking about their gambling and and trying to stop, like that's satisfying. Like you can't, it's gonna be a bigger issue. But it's like I hate social media, and it's because it makes everybody concerned for what's happening over here, over there, but no one's concerned about their own yard, instead of you're yelling about your neighbor not cutting their grass. And before social media, people worry about their own yard and their community and making that better and worried about what happened locally, but now everyone's so involved nationally and across the world that no one pays attention to what's happening in front of them. And I think that's how all this stuff snuck in is no one's paying attention. Uh, and so I've learned to just focus small. I guess focusing small is what gives me hope because that it makes a difference to that one person, right? Like when you talk to somebody on your podcasts, and that one person's like, Oh yeah, that was great, or even you know, just giving them that that hour that they're gonna be like, I'm gonna share this with my friends, and I'm on this podcast with Christina Cook. Oh my gosh, I listened to all your podcasts, Christina, and I've been on your website and I've seen everything you've done. I've watched you do these talks, and I read these articles with you, and I'm talking to you. And that helps people because you were able to stop, and they're like, Well, maybe I can stop too, and then maybe I'll talk about it, maybe I'll write a book, or somebody will figure out a new way to discuss all this, which I think people have. So I guess it's focusing small that creates hope. If you if you if you focus wide, it's a very disappointing world to be involved with, sadly. And it drives me nuts from time to time. I mean, a month ago I was not in a good place, and I'm back to normal because of you know, some wake up one day and you go, you know what? This inspires me and I want to do this. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, when I think of the way I feel uh, you know, a year and a half into working in this space, the fact that you've been doing it for 10 times as long. I mean, I feel you, brother. It's it's okay to have those to have those months once in a while for sure.

SPEAKER_00

I think people always need to realize at the end of the day, like even though we're talking about this and we're working in this space and we're trying to help as many people as we can, we're still humans and we have so much life going on outside of this work. And that's the real truth of recovery is how is your life look every day, outside of work, you know, at home, in those relationships, in our communities. Um, it's just so much bigger than just the work of recovery. It's it's, you know, really navigating our lives in in a big way. And and sometimes I think people, it can be easy to forget that we're humans, you know, outside of our podcast and outside of these conversations and outside of our day jobs. Um, but we still very much care about what's happening in this community. And that's why I love this conversation with with you both. Um, you know, because we're all passionate about helping the person who's listening to this podcast. Um, and anything we can do to reduce those barriers and to give them hope, it's always gonna be worth it.

SPEAKER_02

And I like what, you know, back to the the podcast was great. I don't know if you guys ran into this, but it was a good cheat code to just not gamble because you're sitting there telling the world that I'm not gonna gamble. And so you're like, oh, I'm gonna stick to that. Um, and I think a lot of people who do things for the wrong reasons hold themselves up as like I'm awesome and look at how great I am, and eventually you find out that they're not. And so I think if you just be yourself and admit your mistakes and just be honest with people and be like, I effed up and it's not perfect, but this is what I learned. And and it, you know, those books where someone's like, quit gambling, this is how like that's all bull. BS. You said not to swear, I I still wanted to swear. But yeah, you know, it's the people who are like, here's what I tried, here's what I did, and so far it's working. That's the person I want to listen to. Like somebody who's like, hey, man, try it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

People who are any seem to absolutely know everything I don't trust.

SPEAKER_00

I've never had much faith in those. This is how you stop gambling books. Um, because I've I've bought them all. Like, I have all the books I think ever written on gambling. And though they offer, you know, some of them offer some really good wisdom. And and I think we're all like push curiosity, like figure out what's gonna work for you, find out what's gonna work for you, but try everything, read everything, right? Knowledge is gonna be the most impactful thing you can add to your day of just trying to better understand it. Um, but I think you're absolutely right. Like anything that that says stop gambling in 30 days, stop smoking in 30 days, like how do they know that that's gonna work?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they don't, but they know it will sell.

SPEAKER_00

That's very true. All right, you know, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Not sorry, I just not to further I know you're trying to close us out, but just uh I'm curious what you guys think about this. But we all I believe went to Gambos Anonymous. We love Gambos Anonymous, but we also understand that it's a program that you know has some shortfalls in some areas, and I you know, like what's the proper way to recover? I don't think it matters. Do whatever the hell works for you. If if if watching Netflix all day and not being in society helps you not gamble, then do that for a while and see how you are. Going to GA works, do it. If you know being on eVive and involved in the community works, then do it. If you hate online meetings, don't do it. If you love online meetings, do it. If you don't want to read books about other people's gambling addiction, don't do it. You know, like do whatever works. There's no do whatever keeps you from gambling because that's the most harmful thing. If you're you know watching this video, then that's probably the most harmful thing that you've dealt with. And so do whatever makes you not do that, and then course correct as you need. Find out what makes you happy. I I think people, it it's the what's the blanket on the the connection is the opposite of addiction. Like, isn't that I mean I gambled out of loneliness sometimes, even though I had friends and people around, I still felt lonely, and it was gambling that made me that felt fulfilling. So, I mean, keeping people around and being involved with people is what keeps me out of trouble, I think. As much as I shut down and go away and hide, but yeah, I co-sign on everything you just said.

SPEAKER_01

And the one thing I'll add to it, and something that I heard in a meeting recently, was but don't pass judgment on something until you've at least tried it, right? Like, don't say you're not a meetings person and you've never been to a meeting. Don't say you don't vibe with smart recovery if you've never tried smart recovery, right? But but to your point, if if if you stop gambling, whatever you're doing, and you're feeling good and you're evolving and you're recovering, don't worry about what anyone else is telling you to do. But if you're struggling, that's when you gotta, like you said, you got a course correct and you gotta you gotta I I say it all the time, you gotta put the same amount of effort in your recovery as you did with your gambling. And that's you know, and I I think that's that's that's where people, you know, people might have one bad experience with one pathway, and then they they never go back to it. And then they find themselves a year later still struggling. Yeah, you might want to go back, right?

SPEAKER_02

What's what I like about you two is it it and I I because I feel like you're like me in that way of just like be be be a little humble, be a little bashful about like yeah, we have experience, but we're not I don't know everything about gambling addiction.

SPEAKER_00

We're still humans.

SPEAKER_01

We're learning I'm learning every day. I want to keep learning.

SPEAKER_00

All right, yeah. Well, I think that that was a fantastic conversation. And Hatch, I really appreciate you spending the last hour with us and just shooting, shooting the well shoot. I was gonna say shooting the shit.

SPEAKER_01

Shooting the shit with the Godfather. Oh, you did it. Um thank you, Godfrey.

SPEAKER_02

This was awesome. This was great. It's when you guys asked, I'm like, wait, on your pocket? And like, no, no, no. On on Christina's pocket.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no, on a different no, on e Vive Live, but it's not live. Yeah. Found that out the hard way.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening, and we'll catch you next time.

SPEAKER_01

See you later.