Evive Live

Scott Meyer | Recovery Coach, Peer Manager

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Adam and Christina sit down with Recovery Coach Scott Meyer, who shares a brutally honest look into his 13-year battle with gambling addiction—one that unfolded in complete silence while he maintained the image of a successful professional, husband, and father. Scott opens up about living a double life, manipulating those closest to him, and the moment everything came crashing down. From the early wins that fueled the addiction to the isolation, shame, and eventual legal consequences, this conversation pulls back the curtain on how destructive and deceptive gambling addiction can become—regardless of background, career, or intelligence. 

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.



SPEAKER_05

Hi everyone, welcome to EVIB Live. I'm Christina Cook.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm Adam Lyons.

SPEAKER_05

And we just had another amazing conversation with a person who I admire, uh, Scott Meyer. And I see what you did there. I did, I did. Um, he's one of my favorite people, and he his story is incredible. It's it's heartbreaking. But what he's done because of it is pretty amazing. And so I really loved this conversation with Scott.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean, I thought it was so cool that you knew his story, but I didn't. And there was this cool thing going on where like there was a couple moments where I was like, you guys were kind of talking about it, and I was like, whoa, whoa, wait, I don't know what you're talking about. And like, but um, I was hanging on every word, I was truly hanging on every word. And, you know, it's there's something about when someone is talking about their story, I think about where I was at that same time. And while he was getting arrested on Long Island, a little bit of a spoiler alert, I was living in Brooklyn. And so it's like it that it just gave us like I gave it gave me at least this weird little connection of like, you know, we were, we were, we were, he was on Long Island. I was in New York City, and we were both going through it in the throes of it. And I just thought like that was really like a really cool moment for me where like he said, he's like, You might have seen me on the news and you never even knew it. You know what I mean? Like one of those moments where like you you you don't know if you passed someone uh, you know, in the in the in your past.

SPEAKER_05

Um, but yeah, just it's likely you guys were in the same casino at some point.

SPEAKER_04

You're so right. I didn't even think of that. Totally.

SPEAKER_05

Like you walk right past him, or maybe he's setting somewhere in your ears. It's it's it's mind-blowing to think about that.

SPEAKER_04

You know, and now you say that, I literally was just about to say he does look familiar, and I've always thought that since the day I met him. That's just my brain wanting to, but but he the moment I saw him and met him, I'm like, I did have that feeling. So who knows? I mean, I spent, you know, for three and a half straight years, I spent two days a week in Atlantic City. And this was before he hit his rock bottom. So yeah, it's totally possible. It's crazy.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

It was a great conversation, and we hope you guys enjoy it. And take take the hope that he continues to share every day.

SPEAKER_04

And also get ready to hear about the great Kim. That's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_05

All right, let's roll on into this episode.

SPEAKER_04

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons from the Modern Meeting Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook from the Broke Girl Society. Christina, who do we have here today?

SPEAKER_05

We have a really great guy and friend, Mr. Scott Meyer, who's gonna come on, share his lived experience, and just share what he's doing in the space and and how he's he's helping so many of us who have been impacted by gambling. Hi, Scott.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, Christina. Hi, Adam. Scott, how are we doing?

SPEAKER_04

I'm doing great. Awesome. So, I mean, you know, I think before we dive into all the amazing work you're doing now, I think uh, you know, it's important for context's sake to how did you end up getting there? Tell us about your uh a little bit of your lived experience.

SPEAKER_00

How did I end up getting into space?

SPEAKER_04

I was that's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_00

Catapulted into the space. Uh 13 years of destructive gambling, uh, beginning somewhere around the age of 32. Um, and while I gambled many years prior to that, uh the destructiveness began at age 32 and lasted for 13 years in complete, utter silence uh and loneliness and isolation, uh, hidden addiction, as we will, as we all know it. And for 13 years, I was able to manipulate everybody around me. And um came crashing down uh in July of 2013.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so you mentioned that you know it became destructive at 32. What was uh what was the change? Like what was the difference between once you hit 32 compared to the years prior?

SPEAKER_00

You know, it was all it was part of my life since I was 10. And it was always for fun and entertainment and joy. Uh, and then, you know, you all know I'll mention my beautiful bride's name many times, Kim, who I met in high school. Um, and the and the focus was let's see if I can put this in the proper order. Then it was probably sports, Kim, academics, uh, you know, and just having a grand old time. And, you know, going to college, the focus was I was going to be an accountant. 100%. There was no doubt in my mind, since 11th grade in high school, I was going to be an accountant. And then we get engaged during college, right? And we get married right after college. And we start planning a family. And there was no exposure to the level of gambling that exists today for me. Um, you know, we didn't have the funds to go away much, but occasional trips to Atlantic City with the friends, you know, once or twice a year. Uh, and it was all let's go have dinner, let's see a show, let's go dancing, let's have a few drinks, and maybe gamble somewhat. And there was never this desire. And then I can remember when it all changed. You know, we have a bunch of kids, open my own accounting practice, um, and we decide to go away.

SPEAKER_03

And Kim and I were playing a slot machine together, and we hit five thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_00

This was goes back to, I don't know, we were 31 years old. Um and what did we do that day? We left the casino immediately. Immediately, and it all began to spiral from that point forward. The solicitations came, the the uh desire to go back, um, and the trips became fast and furious, and for lack of a better term, uh isolating because I didn't want anybody to go. I just wanted to go. And the solicitations brought me back there. Um, so I mean that's the quick story up to that age, but what really catapulted me into gambling addiction was the online access to casinos across the world. And that goes back, that goes back 20 years. Sure. So while uh they don't didn't exist on my cell phone back then, they existed on every other device that I had.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, you could find them. You just had to dig a little deeper. They were always there.

SPEAKER_00

It was quite easy once you got the first one. Mm-hmm. Because I had at least 10 to 12.

SPEAKER_05

Wow. And I I imagine too, with all of that, like accessibility, availability, all of that. But I imagine too, kind of that pivotal time in your life. There was a lot of pressure to be a provider. You had have all these kids, you know, your beautiful wife, and you're starting out this business, and there's a lot of pressure and stress, all kind of tied in with that too, around the same time. So I could see where the desire to want to just take a break and not think about all of those things that have to be on your shoulder or constantly in your head.

SPEAKER_00

And that's really interesting, Christina, because uh part of it was that I was able to cover up my gambling activities because of the insanity of our life. We had five kids running a business, coaching sports, you know, and all the things that come along with that. It was so easy for me to be stressed out because of the kids, the job, you know, you know, client didn't pay the bill, uh, and any excuse in the book. And believable, too.

SPEAKER_04

It was in Easy Shield.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Now, based on everything that you've said so far in the first six minutes, with you said that for 13 years it was essentially in secret, and now you're painting this picture of your family. So you are the poster boy for living the double life. Is that easy to is that accurate?

SPEAKER_00

That is an accurate statement. And I actually wrote a short paper that I haven't delivered to anybody yet, and uh I was men of two worlds.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So talk about that. Like, talk about you know, just juggling the lies and trying to keep track of what you said to this person and that person, and and you know, obviously doing all the gambling in secret, hiding the finances in secret. Like, take us into all that if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I don't mind at all. Um, it was it was a very difficult life. It I was lying and manipulating every conversation I had from my business partner to clients to friends to relatives to, you know, of course, my my wife, my poor wife. That I I went through great lengths uh to cover it up from her. Um she was taking care of the kids. I was providing for the household. Every word that came out of my mouth was the truth to her. Um, and it was I I mean, I couldn't keep track of it. It was so bad. I mean, I came up with so many stories through that time. Uh I mean, lying to my business partner, taking money from the business, putting us in jeopardy of not making payroll. Uh, it was it was a horrible existence. And it lasted for so many years. And, you know, probably could because I, you know, to some extent I was doing well, right? So I had that feeding, and the other extent, uh, you know, everything else was happening, and I couldn't even pay the electric bill. It was the most mind-boggling thing in the world. But yet, I had this straight professional face wherever I was. Walk through the community. I was a pillar of this community, you know? And and that you look up, look, look back to those times where I was just dying inside, just screaming, help, help, help, and no one, you know, no one can hear it. And I was too shameful to actually say it out loud. Because I was I was my kid's Superman, I was my wife's best friend and you know, confidant and and all that. I was a pillar of the accounting world and the community, and here I am destroying every bit of it, total hidden shame and fear for at least 10 years. Just thinking, guess what? Never enough zeros, right? I think we all know that that expression. That big one was going to come. I was going to fix it all. And lo and behold, there was never enough zeros. Because even if I did win, which we all did, it was allocated to going back and doing it again. Do it again.

SPEAKER_04

Christina, I know I keep asking all the questions. I promise you can ask like the next two. I have one more question for Scott. And I'm stealing this question from the modern meeting. This is the question I ask everyone at the beginning of each episode. I have to know, Scott, do you remember the moment when you realized, uh-oh, like this thing actually is a problem.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, now I was expecting you said a moment when you knew you could no longer gamble again, but this is a different question. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I do remember swearing I would never gamble again 30 times.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I would say it was somewhere around the ninth or tenth year where I was like, oh my God, I I can't do this. And I would delete all the apps. I would be driving home from the casino, never doing it again. Um, you know, and then I wouldn't for a week. You know, and uh what what did I fix? The financials. I fix fixed the financial.

SPEAKER_04

And for those nine or ten years, you know, if anyone knew what was going on, they would have immediately been able to be like, Scott, this is a problem. But when we're in the thick of it, we just are our our the disease makes us think that it's normal, right? Like you were just like, I'm I'm just a hustler, or I'm like, what were what were some of the justifications you think the disease was giving you, like for those nine or 10 years?

SPEAKER_00

I I was very good about copmentalizing the problem and it and not even realizing the magnitude of it. Right. When the magnitude of it came out, I think I was as shocked as other people were because I wasn't tracking that. I wasn't like the number was astronomical, and I had no idea. Um, I knew it. If you if you I don't know if you can really understand that, but the the magnitude of that number was shocking to me, where I couldn't even believe it happened. So I I associate that with being able to kind of block it out and just burying it, and it doesn't exist, and I can keep going and I can fix it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Um, you just talking about the stress and things that you you were in during that time, it just took me back because I spent years just walking around screaming inside, and nobody knew, you know, that the Facebook facade I like to to talk about. So it was just kind of like I took, like, I don't know, my body kind of reacted to you talking about that a little bit because I I so remember like that for me. Um, and just the stress that it was doing to my body. I'm paying the price for it still today of the stress that I caused myself doing very similar, trying to keep up with what I was telling people, trying to keep up with what's coming out of my bank account, what's coming in my bank account, trying to keep up with just everything. And so that the all the the cards don't fall for lack of a better use of words. Um, but I kind of want to go back to, you know, those moments and you talked about like not really tracking the number, but kind of tracking the number. I think all of us probably have a good idea. And, you know, and then when you actually do kind of total it up and you're just like, this can't be right. This can't be right. And then it's that realization of like, this is it. And and I know for you, your story takes kind of a darker turn with that. And you kind of didn't have that moment of like, I think I'm gonna seek a different way. It was just kind of like, I've got to seek a different way, right? Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. You know, like the question I thought Adam was asking was when's the moment you realized you couldn't uh gamble anymore? And and that was literally uh I was avoiding, evading, and and sh moving and shaking, trying to avoid the ultimate consequence. And that was receiving my my beautiful gift of silver bracelets in July of 2013. Uh and that's when the you know D8 detective showed up at my door and said, Nah, we need to talk to you. Um and still to that day, and that day I'm saying to my wife, I don't know what's going on. We're gonna figure this out, you know. I knew exactly what was going on. Um, and and that was really the darkest, most horrible day just to see the fear uh in my wife's eyes and to to just to piggyback on the hidden secrets that we do. You know, like I said, I knew I had a problem, right? The stopping and I'll never do it again. So I was making uh some decisions that were rational and intelligent. I'm not talking about the work I was doing as an accountant, never jeopardized that, which was amazing to me. Uh you know, never just just justify, uh, no, never jeopardized the work that I was doing. So, you know, I had moved money into an account for Kim. And I said, you know, protect it from the business. What if I get sued? We'll just put it in your name and it'll be protected. She was like, great. So we did. We went to the thing and we put a bunch of money in that account. Um, and just like everything, statements came to me. I, you know, they were electronic. Kim never thought she had to check, and that was on me. I made sure she didn't have to check. Okay, I want to make that clear. Um in the day I was arrested, she told me that she said, okay, I'll just go to the bank, I'll get some money, and I'll get him out tomorrow and we'll find out what's going on. And she went to that bank the following day to find out there was 10 cents in that account. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I just realized too, Christina, you know this story and I don't. So I'm like, this is this is amazing. Um so up until that point when the detectives came, nobody had known anything. You had managed to keep the secret. No one had any idea.

SPEAKER_00

No one had any idea about the magnitude of my problems. Everybody knew Scott gambled.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so they knew you gambled, but they had no idea of the magnitude.

SPEAKER_00

No, no. You know, everybody, Monday quarterback, you know, they I had a bunch of people that said, Oh, I thought I thought you had a problem. Including my dad. Right. Which was really disturbing, and that's for probably another part of the story. But uh Kim knew I gambled, right? But, you know, lost a thousand, won a thousand. You know, if I won, if I won 25, if I won, let's be real. If I won 50 grand, I won five, and Kim got the junk chunk of it to put it away for a family trip, right? The games we play. Okay. You know, if I lost 50 grand, uh, I put away, you know, I I lost 500, I lost 2500. Whatever I was I thought she was willing to handle.

SPEAKER_04

And what was your what was your game of choice? Where it I know you said it was online. Was it slots? Was it sports betting?

SPEAKER_00

It was it was online casino betting. Did uh digital applications online went from Blackjack to Let It Ride to slot machines, right? In the casinos, it was high limit slot machines. Uh and occasional card games that where I needed to calm down, if you will, I would go sell a card game. Yeah. I started to be I started to be paranoid, right? So I I knew there was there was relationships that were kind of not the same anymore. Uh there was like this feeling, I had this feeling that things were just not going well. Um and there was questions about, you know, I was I was the trustee, there was uh they were asking questions about the counting and the fees and whatnot. And of course, I thought I handled that, right? But that led to other um more deeper investigation. And, you know, the discovery portion of of my uh actions was actually fairly simple. I was not a very sophisticated uh person who was taking money, transferring it to an offshore account, you know, a shell account, bringing it back to a different account, and you know, doing this big circle. Uh, you know, and you know, what's weird is I was an accountant and probably had the knowledge to do that. But every one of my actions were in in desperation. And it was just from here, right into my personal account. From here, like there was no, right? There was there was no, they didn't have to bring in a forensic accountant to do anything. They literally just opened my account and said, holy crap. You know, and quite honestly, if anybody opened my accounts, they would have said, holy crap. Right.

SPEAKER_05

Do you think you were hoping to get caught? Do you think that that, like you just said, I made this easy for them? Because I've heard a lot of people kind of talk about like never really being able to honestly say, Hey, I'm struggling, or hey, this is happening. They just want people to know that something's struggling, maybe have somebody kind of intervene on your behalf because it's like we can't find the words to say it. We're scared to say it, like those types of things. Do you think that that was part of it?

SPEAKER_00

It was definitely a subconscious part of it. I I just I needed to be caught. I needed to be pounded. And you know, would it it would have been best if uh you know Kim saw it and we were able to come to a realization and I was able to accept the fact that I had a problem and then stopped. Um, you know, yeah, I think that would have been uh the best solution. But I had, you know, like I said, I was becoming paranoid, um, and then more um more focused on gambling because I needed to fix it immediately. So then it like exasperated the whole situation and and the just the the volume at the end was just so fast and furious. Uh and and then it's it's almost like they had to like stop it immediately, uh, because it was just disgusting. Yeah. So yeah, I think so, I think so. And you know, I was so I was no longer the person Kim married. I was no longer this, you know, internally. I was I was miserable, I was tired, I was full of anxiety. Um and it was sad. It was just sad. It was like, wow, and um I know we'll get to the good stuff later. But uh the biggest part is when my wife said she got her husband back.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sorry if I'm not following, but I still don't understand. So was it because the gambling was illegal or was it because you were embezzling from the business? I don't what was the woman?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I was um I was borrowing money from everybody who uh didn't know I was borrowing money from. Okay. There was multiple, there was multiple victims in the case. Okay. Um basically I was their trusted advisor, um, and I had the ability, um, the access um and the means to borrow money. Uh and to be quite honest, I say that not jokingly. I had all intentions of repaying it all back. But it was taking money that I that I didn't earn, that I didn't deserve, um, and that's what it was. So we call it fraud, embezzlement, uh, forging checks, uh, you you name it. There was multiple counts. Um it was horrible. Yeah. All the things that I worked my entire education life and professional life to build as a trusted advisor were the things that I was doing to kind of just what I what I did to the name of the accounting profession uh to me was was one of my biggest shameful acts because I adored, loved, respected that that profession.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Gambling doesn't gambling addiction doesn't care. It will it will make you do things that you couldn't fathom possible.

SPEAKER_05

I mean gambling addiction doesn't care who like what diploma you have on the wall. It doesn't care how big your house is or what kind of car or how big your bank account is or who you love. It doesn't care. It just cares that there's a thread of something that it can beat on. And that could be isolation, loneliness, avoidance, stress, it could be trauma, it could be so many things, and that's what feeds addiction, whether it's gambling, drinking, drugs, sex, it doesn't matter. Gambling isn't discriminatory. It's it it will take whatever it can get. And you know, most of the people I come across, they have degrees, they they're pillars of their community. It's it's just it's just so destructive.

SPEAKER_04

And to the people who are listening who who, you know, might say, like, you know, the people out there would say, Well, why don't you just stop? Or why don't did you just hear what Scott said? His whole what he worked for in his whole life, he essentially threw away. Like, someone who is in control or who can just stop that doesn't do that, right? Like, I just, oh, if that's not a perfect example of how a lot of this is truly out of our control when we're in the throes of it. You know what I mean? Like, what more what more evidence do you need?

SPEAKER_00

I love that you said that, Adam. I really do. It's an it's so important for people to understand you can't just stop. Yeah. You know, we want to stop. You just can't stop. Um and the people that say just stop, the parents that just say just stop, the spouses that say just stop. Uh-uh. Uh no. We we can't. It's I mean, it it has taken over our brains, and we need some change, and we need support to do that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's it's it it rewires the way that we think, the way that we reach for for problem solving, like everything. It it really just gets in there and it it messes with those wiring. And so it to say, just grow up or just stop, or like none of that is ever gonna be helpful. It's never gonna be helpful to say that. Educate yourself, try to better understand what's going on, and and always you always start with compassion and empathy, and you find the resources and you and you build the support. Now, kind of fast-forwarding a little bit, you know, your story that has been told on a few different channels. You can go to our buddy Rob's channel one day at a time. I watched your interview on that, it was fantastic. Um and, you know, so you've got quite a bit of like turn twists and turns in your story, but as you're kind of coming to this realization of like, okay, now I've got to face legal, you know, troubles because of the gambling. Um now you're trying to to figure things out with Kim as well and and just everything, right? Your community. What is that looking like as you're going through the court systems and trying to just hold on?

SPEAKER_03

Wow, you gotta make me cry in that one. It was horrible. I can imagine.

SPEAKER_00

Um couldn't look out my front window. The shame when I walked down the street with my head down. The desire not to be here anymore. Just real and evident. Um and we're gonna talk about suicidality. I mean, I wanted not to be here for years, but actually took four times to try to not be here anymore. Um, it was so hard. The disappointment, the shame, the disgust that was going through my body and the fear of what the unknown, like what was to come, what was going to happen. Am I gonna lose my kids, my wife, uh and ultimately my freedom?

SPEAKER_03

Which I did. Um it was horrible. I it's amazing I'm still standing here. It really is.

SPEAKER_04

And what what do you think when you when you say that what pops in your head of what do you attribute to that, the fact that you're here?

SPEAKER_03

She's sitting in the other office working.

SPEAKER_00

My kids they wanted their father back, she wanted her husband back. Uh and Kim was as as compassionate and empathetic as she was, she also had a very heavy boot and kicked me in my ass a couple times and said, You need to get up and get moving. You need to stop being shameful. You have a disease. I mean, this were words from my wife who knew nothing about addiction.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, what a what a blessing.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, the strength that she um she showed for her for our family, number one, um, and for me to give me the chance in the space. Yeah. I mean, there's there's no doubt. And and you can extend that, and then the support of family and extended family and friends who embraced me, embraced my children and my family during this whole struggle, and just my church. I I mean, it just the web of destruction was terrible. The web of web of support um was amazing, and it gave me an opportunity to to stand on my own and start flying again.

SPEAKER_05

I love that. And you're you're a granddad now too, right?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05

Just bring a little joy into the conversation a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

I just know I appreciate that because when I tell you and when I hear the word, one of my favorite words, names to be called is pop-pop. And uh, you know, I have three grandchildren now. And if you would ask me 13 years ago if I would ever walk two of my daughters down the aisle uh or have grandchildren, I would say I won't be able to see it. And uh the uh the gratitude for that alone is every day. I feel joy. Um yeah, I'm a lucky thank you for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, well, you're one of my favorite people. And so I I love it when you when you share those things and and I just wanted to bring a little smile to your face because I know talking about some of the hardest moments in our life, like it it becomes heavy. And yeah, and I know for people watching, you know, they may be experiencing something similar currently or you know, have a loved one that they're trying to support through it. And so it's it's it's kind of always um for me about understanding, you know, the harms that gambling attributes to us and to everybody around us. Um, but also that that hope and joy and those things are still possible and they're still there, which is what how I want to transition into, you know, you came out of prison. How long did you serve in prison?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I served two years in a in a you know a plush upstate. I I say that with such sarcasm, a disgusting place upstate New York, um, and two years in work release, which gave me an opportunity to be home for what started at four days a week and went to seven days a week. Um, so four years in the system, two and a half were home being able to work and be with my family. But remember, Christina, if you don't remember, and I'll update Adam, I was sentenced to four and a half to thirteen and a half years. Um I could still be in. And I've been I was sentenced and and incarcerated in 2015, and I was reunited with my family two years, almost uh well, actually 23 months later, I actually was able to hug my family.

SPEAKER_04

Um now you mentioned this web of support. Um at what point did recovery enter the conversation?

SPEAKER_00

Defining recovery has has uh evolved during my recovery. Uh when did it start? Uh I stopped gambling in July of 2013. Um the fear of of the unknown existed for many years. I went to a GA meeting July of 2013. Okay, and when I got in that meeting on a Tuesday night in Wonto, New York was hope out of that meeting. Um, I didn't know what else to expect. Uh was that the beginning of recovery? Um yeah, that was my journey. It started there. Um my real true recovery began. You know, I had to I had to navigate the legal system, I had to be inside for quite some time. So protecting my life was was priority. Um you know, recovery started probably in year five. Okay, in recovery for 13 started in year five, and I can tell you I don't remember the date, and I should have written it down, but I can tell you when it happened. It's when I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, I can't, I can't lie anymore to myself, I can't tell myself nonsense anymore. No one else should believe me, but if I start with me, then maybe everybody else will stop believing me. And that's when it began.

SPEAKER_04

God, I love that. You're gonna make me cry. Oh my god, Scott. Holy shit. So now I have over the last four plus years, I have interacted with people in and out of meetings that are struggling with gambling and they're also involved in the legal system. And my question to you is I think I know the answer, but I, you know, I'm gonna let you answer it obviously. The the common, I think, misconception is that if someone goes to jail for a crime they committed because of gambling, it's almost an assumption that, like, well, I mean, that's the rock bottom of all rock bottoms. Once they come out, like they're obviously not going to go back to gambling. When you came out and you were living at home, what was your relationship with gambling then? Were there ever any urges? Did you did did you have to, you know, when you said you looked in the mirror, do you think if you didn't, you know, enter some type of recovery that you may have possibly went back?

SPEAKER_03

There's an unequivoc unequivocal, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. There is there is no way that I could sit here and tell you that I didn't have urges and desires. Um, you know, I was I was now out of a career. I had lost my earning capacity. I had a family still to support. Um, the urges were still there. My brain was not healed. Um, I was not, uh, by no means was was that gone from my life and never to come back again. Uh the urges are are real. Um, and I had to, I had to change the way I was thinking, and I had to be you know honest with myself and know that I never, never want that harm again. Not just for me, for the people I harmed. And while we say what, eight to twelve, okay, my count it exceeds 30. And if you add my full team that I was coaching at the time, you can add another 15 to that because those kids had to see their idol coach crumble.

SPEAKER_03

You know, was that harm? Yeah, that's harm.

SPEAKER_00

You know, so uh yeah, um that's a that's a real tough question. Uh does does being incarcerated guarantee that you're never gonna gamble again? I had to face that every single day I was inside. They gamble on everything. The COs gamble. They're scratching lottery tickets at the at the desk, you know, as they're supervising us. I remember stopping, they would they transported me to a medical facility one time, and we stopped at a restaurant in uh not a restaurant, a quick stop or something. And I'm looking out the window, and part of this quick stop in upstate New York, I don't even know what it was called, or even know where where I was. Casino. So that's where, you know, and I don't know, were they going in to buy lot of tickets? Probably. You know, uh every day the inmates gamble on everything. And they're not only gambling with money, they're gambling with their bodies and their lives. Um thank God. I mean, I just chose immediately to say no. No, no, no. I didn't bet one penny.

SPEAKER_05

What are support services look like in prison for recovery? I I know, I mean, from what I've heard, it's not great, but what was it like for you? Were there any available at all?

SPEAKER_00

So where I was, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing, especially with well, you know, nothing as it relates to gambling for sure. You know, they they had um recovery meetings for AA, which were with a population of 2,000, there was like four people. Uh and I remember I actually went to a meeting, AA meeting in there, and I have I think there was five that night, and there were five individuals who struggled with alcohol use looking at me saying, Why didn't you just stop? And I and I literally walked out and said, Well, that's not gonna help. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I would have been like, Why didn't you?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, I could literally, we could, I mean, we're just I just feel like we're just getting warmed up. We could talk to you for two hours, but at some point we have to get to the amazing work that you're doing now, you know, uh, you know, recently. So, you know, take us, take us into, you know, when did you first uh want to make this a career? Yeah. Or, you know, at least like working in it, you know.

SPEAKER_00

You know, as I was entering the recovery in that fourth or fifth year where it became strong and sustainable, and I um through the encouragement of Kim, no doubt, she's like, Scott, you know, you ran a business. Like you, you coach people through stages of their financial life. You you're a basketball coach, you know, you got five kids, you've been through the legal system, you have all these skills. Why don't you give back to a community so that no one, well, at least one person doesn't have to go through what you went through. And that was the beginning of it. Um, and um, you know, I amazing work. I am honored to do this work. Honored. I'm not amazing. I'm a person with significant harm from gambling. Um, and I never I I mean if I can save everybody, I would, but if I save one, that's enough. Um and it's it's amazing work, and I'm honored to do it. Yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05

It's fulfilling work to be able to work in this space and be able to help people find a way forward when they feel like there is no way forward. Like it there's no explaining how much that gives back to myself. Like, and just to be able to do whether it's one-on-one, whether it's group, whether it's, you know, even just talking in a podcast, like just the conversations of how gambling impacted our lives, caused harm, but how we can move through it and we can can definitely build a life that we want, and encouraging other people to to do it with you. Like there's just nothing I can compare to.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Two things, two, two, two quick things. Number one, I think we need to have Kim on at some point because she sounds like one of the most amazing people I've ever heard in my life.

SPEAKER_05

The Bro Girl Society gets dibs. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. You can have you can have first dibs. Number two, you know, I I keep every time you mention sports and coaching, you know, I think of myself, you know, I grew up playing sports. I coached baseball for pretty much all of my 20s. Um, gambling, lying, cheating the whole time. And once again, living this double life where like my my players love me, the parents love me, and I was just a mess. But so now bringing this all back to, you know, like just sports and like being competitive. Um I have a question for you about recovery coaching and peer counseling. You know, as as Christina mentioned, there's nothing more fulfilling in the world than when, you know, someone reaches out to me and said, Hey, I I watched one of your videos and I just celebrated one year or this or that. But what I want to ask you about are the tough days, are the losses, right? Are the the, you know, when you when you think you're on the right track with someone and you're working with them one on one and then all of a sudden they ghost you or Or, you know, you can tell you just know in your gut that they're lying to you about certain things. You know, I I lean on Christina a lot um for stuff like this. And I guess my question is, you know, how do you balance the wins and losses in recovery coaching? And, you know, what is I guess I'm asking you for advice. Like how how do you how do you handle those setbacks or those losses?

SPEAKER_00

It's a great question, but I'm gonna address the first one uh first. Yeah, of course. A lot of people want to know if Kim really exists because uh she stays behind the curtain.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and she prefers that. But she, by no doubt of the imagination, is the strength and force behind it all. Um everybody's been trying to get her on a podcast, everybody wants her on stage. Um, and I know she would do amazing things out there, but um, that's not just not her thing. Uh she's but she is the strength. So, you know, in early uh support of others, um, at a difficult time uh navigating those challenges. What did I do wrong? What am I not doing? You know, overthinking it, taking it to bed with me, you know. Uh, and I actually I actually relied on some clinical uh therapy work in order to be able to develop that strength to be able um separate it. Um so that definitely helped. Knowing that what we're doing, we're doing incredibly hard work, really difficult work, digging deep into our past and bringing up wounds and opening them up, sometimes very difficult to close those wounds uh directly after an interaction. Um you know, that type of work that we do um is is really hard and it deserves recognition, right? As much as it is an honor, it's really hard work to do. So, you know, what I put out there is there are chances that we will fall during recovery, we will slip backwards in recovery and come back, talk to me, tell me what's going on, and you'll never see a face of shock when you're when you're talking to us, right? If someone comes back and said, I did it again, we're not gonna be like, oh my god, why? You know, what when did you no? Okay, let's talk through it. What happened? Let's go through this. Well, I went to the casino or I logged in and I made the bet. No, let's let's go back. When did the thoughts start? And and just let them let them think about it, let them process how their behaviors changed the minute they maybe had access to that few extra dollars that no one knew about and how they started thinking and planning. And, you know, it took actually three days for them to actually make the bet. But um, and sometimes it's instantaneous, but uh just giving them the space of no shame, no stigma, no judgment.

SPEAKER_03

I've been there and let's talk about it. And what can we do differently?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, using it as like information and like a learning tool of like, okay, so we're given this amount of information and data before the slip or recurrence happen. Like, let's pull from this data and figure out if we can what changes need to be made, what we can do to, you know, make those barriers a little heftier. And I think too, on the other side, I mean, we all work in peer, right? So peer support in in some capacity or another. But I think what I had to do early on as well, Scott, and tell me if this is something you had to do as too. It's I really had to learn, and I had clinical help, clinical mentors who were really reassured this with me, my own sponsor. I couldn't want somebody else's recovery more for them than they wanted it for themselves. That's a lesson I had to learn really early on because I'm not going to be the one doing the work, right? I'm not gonna be the one. I can want recovery for them, just like I want it for anybody who's struggling, but I can't do the work for them. I can't make sure they they do the check-ins and that they put the barriers in place and all of that. Um, and that was a kind of a hard lesson. I kind of attuned it to me being in a boat, trying to help somebody into the boat while they're trying to pull me into the water. You know, it's just kind of that thing. And I had to really kind of put those those boundaries in place so that I could view, you know, their recovery was on them. Their work, that work belongs to them, but I'm here for them. I'm here to give them guidance, I'm here to share my own experience. But I think sometimes that's the toughest part of doing this work is that you see somebody who wants it, right? Doing all the right things, but but maybe doesn't want it in the same way or just is is having a harder time. And it's like just knowing that there's not much you can do, but but be there when they're ready.

SPEAKER_03

Well said.

SPEAKER_00

It's true. The reality is that we are in these individuals' lives for a season and for a reason. The likelihood is, and the hope is is that we're not in their lives the rest of their lives, right? We're professionals, and that's the professional boundaries, and that's the relationship. And and, you know, we're there to give them tools and guidance, advice. I mean, this is recovery coaching and peer support. While we're not directing them what to do, we're kind of giving them the parameter parameters of choice, uh, and hopes that they create a sustainable foundation that they can continue to build upon. You know, but in order to do that, we have to give them sense of realities. You know, first 30 days of not gambling, well, why didn't you gamble? Well, because my mom won't give me any money. My spouse is gonna divorce me. Uh you know, you're not gambling out of fear and no access to money, but that's gonna change in a year. Right? I say this all the time.

SPEAKER_03

I can literally go tomorrow and gamble. Right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I have restored faith and trust and and thank God. Um it it's so funny how I think of money today as I did back then, right? It's just amazing. And I'm you know, I want to build a future of financial freedom, and so I'm navigating the way I used to think prior to gambling addiction, and the way I coached businesses to develop their long-term financial goals. Uh so I'm so proud of myself for that. But as it's a result of recovery. So, yeah, uh, I get what you're saying. We we can't we can't hold on to their recovery as professional peers.

SPEAKER_04

Speaking of that, last question before the last question, two more questions.

SPEAKER_03

How do you balance working with others, but also making sure that you're taking care of yourself with your own recovery? Interesting. It's part of my recovery, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Um, I am very good, and I used to not be very good at this, um, knowing when to say I can't. Turning it off, putting the phone down, canceling appointments and taking days, uh, getting away and disconnecting, going on my five mile walks. Um, you know, something that I never took care of myself when I was gambling. You know, and it's funny, someone just said to me the other day, they saw a picture of me, actually the picture that's on Rob Medic's uh right and they said, You look younger today. How long was that how long ago was that picture? I said, Well, that was 14 years ago. Yeah. 13 years ago, that picture was. And he's they said, You look younger today. I said, Yeah, because I didn't take care of myself. I wasn't eating right. I was probably smoking two packs a day. Um I was a wreck. I I don't know, was it because I didn't care? Probably. Um, but how do I balance that? Yeah, um, my recovery, and this comes from a mentor of mine. Okay, and I I kind of exaggerated a little bit, but he basically said this.

SPEAKER_03

Nothing. I mean nothing.

SPEAKER_00

Nothing is more important than your recovery. No business opportunity, no relationship, no nothing. Nothing is more important than your recovery. And you know why? Because without your recovery, you have none of the things that I just mentioned. You have no relationships, you have no opportunities, you have no life. So recovery is most important. And I and I hold that dear in my heart because it is. Because without my recovery, my kids don't have their father, my grandkids don't have their pop up, my wife doesn't have our husband back. And and expand that to the community and extend a family and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03

Um, so that's how I do it. Amazing.

SPEAKER_05

I love it. And our our final question that we like to ask everybody who's been on the podcast is what gives you hope about working in the in the gambling recovery space, about what's happening in the in the space? What gives you hope?

SPEAKER_00

I feel like this is a double-edged sword. So I'm just gonna address it because I think I mentioned in the beginning when we before we started recording, um, I'm starting to get a little bit anxious about the harm that this gambling addiction is about to rear its ugly head, right? We haven't seen the tip of the iceberg. We haven't seen the foreclosures and the embezzlements and the legal problems and the legal system that's not ready for this. We haven't seen the divorces and the domestic violence. We haven't seen the homelessness as a result of this. We haven't seen the kids dropping out of college with with$50,000 worth of debt because they spent their federal grant money on gambling. Um, we haven't seen all this data. Okay, and and and the harm is what gives me hope. Um, what gives me hope is that people like us are willing to stand up and shout on the top of a mountaintop about our journeys. Okay, where there's less fear, there's more people coming out and talking about this.

SPEAKER_03

And I think that gives me hope. People like you both. Thank you. And you, sir.

SPEAKER_05

And you too.

SPEAKER_04

And I just pulled up this picture of you, and that literally doesn't look like you. That's not even you. Yeah, I don't think. Can you see it? It's horrible.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it looks nothing like you. It's crazy. My wife made me burn that shirt.

SPEAKER_05

I don't blame you.

SPEAKER_04

Um well, Scott, I mean, uh, I went into this with pretty high expectations, and we went way above them. I mean, this was amazing. I really appreciate you taking the time.

SPEAKER_00

I appreciate you saying that. I like to go with low expectations, no disappointments. Thank you for saying that. It's an it was an honor to be here as well, uh, to be in the presence of you both. Uh, Christina, uh, you know, our relationship goes back longer than Adam's and I. Um, but you know, you know, I love you and uh I respect you, and just you're an incredible person. Adam, you have just catapulted into this um and you are rocking it and honored to be in your presence.

SPEAKER_04

Hey, the honor is all ours, Scott. This is uh this is awesome. Can't wait to have you on the modern meeting. Yeah, for sure. Christina, take a second.

SPEAKER_05

You both will be crying.

SPEAKER_04

Oh my god. Yeah, it's just gonna be it's just gonna be, yeah, passing virtual tissues back and forth.

SPEAKER_00

You you say that as that's bad. I think it's a stupid. I know it's good.

SPEAKER_05

You had me already teared up. I was just like, I was like, had my little tissue right here, ready to go.

SPEAKER_04

And obviously, Christina, it goes without saying your life's mission now is to get Kim on the broker of society somehow.

SPEAKER_05

I would love to just have a one-on-one with Kim. Like, honestly, just a one-on-one with her because her side of like I of course, because I know Scott's story, I know Kim's side of it as well. Like, from what oh wow, you do.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And she was like, she fought, she fought for you, Scott. She fought for you, she fought, like she she really she threw herself into it. She and I just, yeah, it would be an absolute honor to be able to have that conversation with her.

SPEAKER_00

I think you'd be able to do that one-on-one.

SPEAKER_05

What about the Especially have no no video, like just audio?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. But just like, you know, you hear all these all these stories about how spouses grab their bags and leave. It's just like the fact that she had the not only the compassion, but just the wherewithal to understand that like, you know, it it this was a disease. And and and she it's like she pushed all the right buttons. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, could we talk about that real quick? Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_00

Let's think about something.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, we're still recording. He can he can splice it.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04

Oh no, we're not touching any of this. This is all good.

SPEAKER_00

You know, um, you go back to uh that day, that that miserable day that uh she was shocked, and I was pretending to be shocked. Um, and and the next day we we sat in our minivan, we took a ride away from the kids, and uh we had a heart to heart, and I knew I couldn't lie anymore. Um, and you know, she asked me one question that that day, and I'll never forget, and she said, Do you ever cheat on me? And I said, No. I said, I've been with you since I was 15 years old. Uh and at one point she admitted this later, she was kind of hoping I said yes. So she could leave. And and you know, she you know, she point, because that that's uh non-negotiable. Sure. And she said um she took so much time learning about this disease. Um, and when she looked at me and she said, Oh god, this stuff makes me cry. If you had cancer, I wouldn't leave you. So why would I leave you because you have a disease of gambling addiction? Now go get treatment, you bastard. You know? And that's and that's pretty much how it went. And then she I mean, she dug, she fought, she fought for for for connection, she fought for uh services, uh, and you know, going back then, they didn't exist. Like no one knew what to do. They did everything in their power. I talked about this at I I did a keynote at New York Council last uh early March. Um, and it was about advocacy. And I really highlighted the fact that, you know, uh little advocacy, little A, right? The stuff that she did, you know, a uh a person over at OASIS really came up with a solution for the prison system, a one-on-one um telephonic support. Um and the prison system said no. They they contacted where I was and said, we're willing to do this as a pilot program, can we? And they said no. So, you know, all that advocacy work, uh, all that strength. Uh, and Kim took the time, she dug deep. Um, I mean, hours upon hours upon hours. Um, you know, maybe that was part of her recovery. Maybe that was how she was able to to deal with it. Um, and that gave her a purpose, a focus, um, and a distraction. Right?

SPEAKER_05

But but what's interesting too, and I think another piece of it is that you guys have been together since you were kids. You grew up together. Like everything is interwoven. You've got five wonderful kids of your own, you know, and this is before you had had grandbabies, but like there was so much interwoven that, you know, sometimes relationships are maybe shorter or there's not as much like life together. But I imagine, you know, and I could see her saying, if you tell me you cheated on me, at least, you know, that is that was something that she could stand on, you know, and move on. But the fact that you're you're you guys were so interwoven in just everything, you know, I'm I'm just truly grateful that she she recognized that as well and and you know, was was able. I mean, I just remember you telling me about her. I remember she did a lot of like news too at the time. She was she was doing like talking to anybody to try and figure this out and to and it's just it's country across the world.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. She did actually get on stage at a local rally, um, it because they were putting up a new casino on out in Islandia, um, which ended up opening uh and and doubling in size since. Um but yeah, she actually got on stage and talked about it. Um she went to a national conference while I was um studying abroad, in quotes, studying abroad. Um, yeah, and you know, met amazing people. And uh a lot of the contacts that I have today um were a result of Kim making those connections. Shout out to Kim.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, shout out to Kim.

SPEAKER_04

All right, Scott, you're the best. Thank you so much for being on eVive live.

SPEAKER_03

Take care, all thank you.