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Melissa Macillus | Host, Making Bets in a Burning House

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Melissa Macillus has been impacted by gambling addiction not once, but twice, and instead of walking away, she leaned in. As the host of Making Bets in a Burning House, she sits down with Adam and Christina to talk about what recovery looks like from the other side, why trust is the first thing to leave and the last thing to come back, and what she wishes every spouse and loved one knew before they spent years figuring it out alone. 

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.

SPEAKER_00

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons from the Modern Meeting Podcast. Hey, who am I here with?

SPEAKER_01

Uh hi. Uh Christina? Christina Cook.

SPEAKER_00

Hello, Christina. How are you?

SPEAKER_01

I'm good. I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_00

I'm good. I'm good. I'm uh we just had another great conversation, you know. Uh it's funny. Um going into it, I thought she had lived experience, and she does kinda, but not really. She is an affected other. And the reason I'm saying this like that, as you guys are about to hear, we had a little we had a little discussion about, you know, language, affected other, affected loved one, affected individual. You know. What do we do?

SPEAKER_01

I think the whole thing with language, right? Language is a big thing these days. And I think the whole point behind language and and making sure that we use the right language is to reduce the stigma that's already being experienced, whether you are somebody experiencing the harm through gambling or experiencing the harm as a loved one's gambling. Um, and I think the whole goal of trying to make sure that language is is things are said a certain way, is to reduce the stigma so that we can all feel safe to get the help that we need. And I mean, I think she makes a valid point around it, but again, there's really no other terminology that kind of fits, you know, aside from an impacted other or something like that. But but it was a really interesting conversation, especially because you and I were both the gambler, right? Um, and I think even at times being called the gambler can be like stigmatizing and shameful. And so it's like, but we were the people who gambled, right? Yeah. We were the people that caused harm through our gambling. And so it was really interesting to have somebody who was on the other side of that harm, right? Whose um husbands had gambled and then she experienced the harm from that. And then I think she took, just like you and I, both individual podcasters and and e-vibe podcasters, you know, we took our experiences and we tried to put those voices out there. And she felt the same kind of pull on the other side of things to have those conversations and to and to put that awareness out there. And so it was great that she was able to come on and have a talk with us. And there was a little back and forth on some things, which I think is healthy.

SPEAKER_00

I 100%. I love it. I love the fact that this was the first episode where I had to raise my hand and say, I disagree with you. And and and but we had a healthy, a healthy debate about it, not even a debate, but just, you know, I think we always talk about how, like, you know, how are things gonna get better? Well, it's having these conversations, have getting these podcasts, getting these videos out there. But guess what? Every conversation doesn't have to be kumbaya, like we're all on the same page. Like, that's how we grow, right? And to your earlier point about language, I know from my experience, it's kind of like a good news, bad news thing where it's like the good news is anyone who's working in this space, if they say something that triggers you or you find stigmatizing, the good news is they're not coming from a malicious place, right? It's coming from a place of a little bit of ignorance or whatever. But the bad news is that I don't think people can learn unless they branch out and and and have multiple conversations with other people, right? So it's like, you know, I was kind of in my bubble in Rhode Island in Massachusetts, and it wasn't until I met you and I met Kitty and I met Sam and I met all these people that said, How about you say it this way instead? And then it started just kind of naturally being like, Okay, yeah, no, you're right. But yeah, so I I think it's really important for all of us, especially those of us who have podcasts and are getting our voices out there, these conversations like we had today. You know, I think I think all three of us are walking away, having learned something about how we say things and and when and and what words we choose.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think you made some really good point. You made a really good point when you when we were kind of talking, and you're like, you know, I'm really kind of thinking about this. And I think I know the other side's perspective, right? Um I think I know 80% of the things.

SPEAKER_00

Don't give away the episode, but yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, I won't give away the episode. But it was just a really interesting kind of moment there where you're just like, you know, but may maybe I maybe I don't have it all figured out on my side of things. And I think that that is a very common thing that you find. Um, I always say the other side, or whichever side you're on, like, do you fully understand the other side and the other impacts? And I would, I would say no. How could we? Right? Unless we were on that side of things, we're never gonna fully understand. You know, I think the the only thing we can do is communicate and just like you said, come together, have those conversations, and hopefully, hopefully this conversation inspires more of that. So yeah. And here's our conversation with Melissa Massillis of making bets in a burning house.

SPEAKER_00

Boom. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons from the Modern Meaning Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook of the Broke Girl Society. And today's guest, we have a fellow podcaster, the host of Making Bets in a Burning House. Melissa, welcome.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you, thank you. I'm so honored to be here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I get first question before we get into it. Take me into how you came up with that title because I love the title of your podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Do you? I'm so excited. I actually, you know, I was an 80s kid, so uh Burning House was one of the, I don't know, just kind of came up. And then uh I don't, I I wish I knew all the steps through it, but it was one of those things I just kept talking with my co-host and just saying random words out, and then all of a sudden I just yelled, making bets in a burning house.

SPEAKER_01

But I think it's so like if you if you visualize it, you know, and especially as this conversation goes on, right? That that really, even you know, as as the person who gambled, like that's what you're constantly doing. It's like you're you're in a burning house, hoping it doesn't all fall down around you, your whole world's going up in flames, like, but yet you're still in the house. And so it it to me, like it just makes complete sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, every time I see, every time I see like you post something on social media or LinkedIn and I see the title, I think of that meme, you know, with the dog sitting at the sitting in the house full of fire, and it's like this is fine. Like that was me for 20 years gambling, right? Like, and it's just yeah, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_02

That's exactly what I pictured, and I'm so proud of the name. I really am. And not only that, but we come up in a lot of algorithms that people when they're they want to make bets, it comes up. So I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe in the future you might be coming back to me.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Love that.

SPEAKER_01

So let's kind of like introduce our audience with who you are before we get into the amazing work that you've done with making bets in a burning house. So, you know, kind of explain a little bit of your story and and how you you landed in the the gambling recovery space. Sure.

SPEAKER_02

So I I was actually married uh for 17 years and I was married to a compulsive gambler, but I didn't know what compulsive gambling was. I just thought we're always in debt, we can never pay the bills, we're making over $100,000 a year, and we are living paycheck to paycheck. I presented him with a plan of getting out of debt, and it worked for about two months. And then he said, I make good money, I don't, I don't want to do this, even though it probably would have taken us two years to get out of debt. And so I said, Well, I don't want to live with this. And looking back, that was actually the first boundary, really, that I ever set regarding this. And so we got a divorce, and I was married uh several years later to my current husband. And a couple of years after we got married, it kind of started. He was always just a football better, he kind of did that thing, and then um he started betting um more seriously and doing the he loves those penny or he loved those penny slot machines, and he started doing those, and then COVID came and we got those COVID relief checks. I was the only one working, and I was thinking, gosh, this is so great. We're gonna make it because we're getting these relief checks, and they were all gone. And so we that was we were living up in northern Nevada, and I told him, I said, You have got to stop this. This cannot happen. And so he said, Okay, I'll quit. He ended up taking a job in southern Nevada, and we moved down there, but he moved down there two weeks before I did. I had to move my parents, I had to finish packing up and everything. So, of course, two weeks, he gets bored, he has nothing else to do, and he goes out and he starts gambling again. So, as soon as I got down to the Las Vegas area, he told me right away that he had started gambling again, and he admitted that he needed help. And so instantly, me, I get on the computer and I Google, how do you help somebody with problem gambling? Again, I still didn't know it was an addiction. And uh GA obviously came up, and then underneath that, Gamanon came up. And I decided, you know what, even if he's not gonna get help, I'm going to go ahead and get help for myself because there must be something I can find out about this disease. And well, of course, I didn't know it was a disease at the time, but I actually ended up going to Gamanon for about eight months before he went to GA. And I just kind of figured I was taking care of myself. And eventually I might get to a point where if he doesn't start taking care of himself, then we're gonna be moving apart. But that's that that gamonon is kind of where everything started. And I always recommend people to start there. I know it's not for everybody, but just start there because they have a lot of resources. Don't reinvent the wheel, just start there and then branch out, go somewhere else if you need to. But they have all the information and they can get you started there. So that's kind of how I got started along this journey.

SPEAKER_00

So now, you know, uh you bring up a a point, you know, when people get divorced, like we hear a lot that it's because of money and finances. You're just making me realize how many people get divorced because of gambling and and you just never know it, like it never gets brought up, right? Like that's probably definitely a thing, right?

SPEAKER_02

I did just read that we whatever the gam the um divorce rate is in the United States, blah, blah, blah. Uh, but I read that it's like 50% higher in people who have a gambling addiction. So I can't I can't even imagine what that is, but and and and so you married two different compulsive gamblers. Lucky me.

SPEAKER_00

So so so now when you divorced your first husband and you are, you know, you hit the you you get back into the dating scene, and did you kind of have your head on a swivel, or were you still thinking that like that was like an anomaly and like it it wasn't as you know I mean, like I'm not saying like how did you fall for it again, but I'm saying like did you have your head on a swivel and what red flags were you looking for? And did you looking back on it, were there any red flags from your second husband?

SPEAKER_02

There really wasn't. I I still again just thought he didn't my first husband didn't want to get out of debt. That's all I thought it was. Now, keep in mind his mom was an alcoholic, both of his parents were uh always gambled after they got off work because they worked in the casinos. His dad was a bartender, his mom uh worked in the slots, and so they would get get off work and and meet at usually his bar or something like that and gamble and drink. She wouldn't drink anymore, she finally found recovery with that. But then both of his sisters were alcoholics, and I just thought that was their family dynamic, you know. I mean, that that's how they grew up, that's what they did as fun. So I I really didn't think anything about it. I really seriously thought that was just his thing. And I just didn't want to be involved in it, I guess, because I'm I'm that type of person. I spend $20 and when it's gone, I'm done. That that's all the fascination that it holds for me.

SPEAKER_01

So So what's what's interesting for me is okay, with your first with your first marriage, you did did you know of the gambling, or was it you're just like, why are we struggling? And there wasn't a lot of answers. Or did you know that gambling was the reason for the struggle?

SPEAKER_02

I didn't know of the gambling because he would go out of town. And again, we're in the state of Nevada, so he would go out of town anywhere inside that state, and then he would say, Oh, I had to take money out. And they would give him money for, you know, for dinner and the hotel and stuff like that, but he would say, Oh, I had to take money out. So I was constantly trying to figure out how to move stuff in our bank accounts to make the payments. Now, don't get me wrong, we went on a lot of trips. We did a lot of things other than gambling. So that's why I thought, okay, we just need to rein ourselves in with these trips and and going out to dinner and doing things like that. And we can easily get out of debt. That's where my I was thinking, that's where my brain was. I never even considered the gambling until years later, when I would always go to this one shopping center, and my ex-husband's car would always be in front of the little Dottie's casino that they have there. And I thought, he's always there. Is this just a coincidence? I come here like maybe once or twice a month. And then that's when it kind of started sinking in that he probably had a problem with that.

SPEAKER_01

And that makes sense why going into you know the second marriage, you didn't have that on your radar. You weren't thinking like you didn't you didn't leave because it took you later to kind of realize that that was the issue there. Um, so that that makes perfect sense that when you, you know, you got remarried, you didn't have those red flags already kind of in that memory bank. And so, you know, but it sounds like it was it was just more out there and and open versus the first husband.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and keep in mind too, Chr um, Christina, my current husband and I would kind of talk about it, you know. I think he has a problem. I think what's going on. So why on earth would I even think that my current husband would fall into that same trap because he had seen it, both of us had seen it together in my ex-husband.

SPEAKER_00

And you were born and raised in Nevada?

SPEAKER_02

I yes, I was born in Reno and we lived in Lake Tahoe for a little bit. So I but as a child, you know, I didn't really know anything about gambling. We lived in Southern California until I moved back to uh Vegas by myself in '93. And then uh that was where I got married, and then we moved back up to Reno again later on in that in that uh relationship, and then we were divorced in 2011.

SPEAKER_00

And so you mentioned that you, you know, so your your husband kind of has that moment with you where he confesses and and you Google and you find Gamanon, and you know, just uh take us through the first steps of that, and like, you know, you know, what was like your first real understanding that gambling harm, you know, was not only impacting his life, but your life too, right? Like, like how quickly did that kind of become a realization?

SPEAKER_02

Well, and I've heard Christina talk about this. The the first time you walk into those rooms is one of the most terrifying experiences that you've ever had. I was a little bit more fortunate in that the room that I walked into it was all women, so I felt a little bit more comfortable, but I always joke with them too, because they they all turned and looked at me, and I'm telling you, they had these resting bitch faces, and I just wanted to turn around and run out the back door, but they, you know, we're just sitting there, you know. So, uh, but I always joke with them. And so I did walk in the room because one of them came up to me and said, Are you looking for help? Are you looking for help with a problem gambler? And so I started talking to them. That meeting was an hour and a half, and I feel like I spoke for that hour and a half, but it was just kind of one of those cry, speak, ugly face thing. I have no control over my life, I don't know what's going on and and that kind of stuff. So I think it was that very first meeting that I knew I had to at the very least keep keep coming back to that meeting so that I could at least figure out more. And I also felt, even if it was just a tiny bit on that first meeting, I felt that I had found my people.

SPEAKER_01

And for for those who maybe don't know, like being married to somebody who gambles or being the parent of somebody who gambles or the sister of somebody who gambles, that is that they're usually called affected others. And would you mind explaining what that means for people who maybe he don't understand the term affected other?

SPEAKER_02

I you know, I really hate that term. And nothing against you, Christina. I I can't come up with a better term, right? Other than a loved one impacted by gal good grief. I mean, there's but affected other just kind of makes us be, I I feel like we're in the corner and they're pointing at us like that person over there is an affected other. Uh, you know, don't get near them. It might come off on you. But I I can't honestly I have been thinking since I got into this. What what other thing can you say without a monumental paragraph describing what you are? But it can be anybody. It can be a spouse, it can be a child, it can be a friend, it can be a coworker who is impacted by somebody who has a gambling addiction. We just usually think mostly about spouses because that's so in your face kind of thing. But all of the children that have parents who are compulsive gamblers, they are even more impacted, I would think, because sometimes they don't have the words to speak about what they're feeling or what they're seeing or experiencing or anything like that. But it really is just anybody who is impacted by a problem gambler. Now, they do say that it's anywhere from six to 10 people, sometimes up to 12, depending on the research that you hear. But honestly, I seriously think that number is way higher because just like a drunk driver, there's people on the road who are impacted by their drinking. And just like a problem gambler, I've been in casinos where somebody is mad, racing out of the casino. They get into their car, they're driving, maybe they're driving erratically. They maybe are going to a restaurant, they treat the waitress like shit because they just lost how much money, you know. So I really think exponentially, like it just keeps going up depending on the attitude of the gambler at that time, you know, and it could be positive. I know I have a friend that her mom was a problem gambler. And she said that they loved when her mom went out and gambled and won because she would always come home and say, let's go shopping, let's go out to dinner. But it's still an impact because you you're still worried about how are they gonna come home? What are they gonna be like when they walk through that door?

SPEAKER_01

That's so, so very true. Um, you know, when I think about that, like how how it ripples out, right? Like directly impacted maybe the seven to ten to twelve people, right, within our direct family. But when then when you really start to add in the community, um, you know, when when you're in the mental health state of gambling disorder, addiction, you know, however you identify with it, but like you're not engaging in society in normal ways, right? Like think about voting communities and and things like that. Like I know certainly when I was in my 15 year addiction. Like I wasn't paying attention to politics. I wasn't voting when I needed to vote. I wasn't filing my taxes and paying my taxes on time. You know, these types of things, when you really want to expand out the impact that gambling harm has, it goes beyond just our family and our friends. It goes into our communities. It goes into the things that we need to show up for so that society can hopefully stand a chance, right? Um, and try not to go too political with it. But it's like by us, you know, we need to be able to show up and and and be present in those conversations and gambling or any type of addiction or disorder, it really takes us away from being able to do that. And so, I mean, I think you make a really, really great point to that. And we'll keep we'll keep shopping affected other. Like I know that there's terms that make me feel uncomfortable as well. And I'm always open to the conversation of what we can do to destigmatize these conversations, especially nowadays, where oftentimes the lens points, and I struggle with this. I'm going on a tangent here, Adam. Apologies. Um even with you know, the sports betting things that are happening now, you know, sometimes women in recovery, they get kind of even the term reduced to an affected other can lead to that stigma stigmatizing kind of conversation, right? Which it's like, one, it stigmatizes women who are experiencing harm through their own gambling, right? But also like that, you know, it doesn't really add to the the conversation of, you know, girlfriends that are impacted by their boyfriend sports betting or those types of relationships. So I think there is definitely a lot of work we need to do there.

SPEAKER_02

So thanks for well, and I think everything is kind of so new. It's not new, but it is new because we're calling it to the front of everything now. We're asking people to see it for what it really is. And I think we're kind of fumbling around, you know, a lot of people have likened it to where alcoholism was in the 80s kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, we're having a lot of conversations, a lot of uncomfortable conversations. And uh yeah, it's just gonna these these are the things that we need to keep bringing up, you know, and it and it gets easier to talk about. And you know, it I think eventually we we as a as a as a space, we're we're gonna land and find the right terms and the right way so that we can all, you know, obviously you're always gonna have your far right and far left people, but um, so I want to go to the early stages of your second husband's recovery because you know, I I think some of the hot topics with uh now I don't want to say affected others. Yeah, some of the some of the hot topics with with uh you know with spouses and you know affected others.

SPEAKER_01

Those those impacted by gambling.

SPEAKER_00

Those impacted by gambling.

SPEAKER_01

It's just so long.

SPEAKER_00

It's um you know, it's towing that line between support and enabling, right? And also just we know what's the cardinal rule of recovery, no matter how bad we may want it for someone else, they need to want it for themselves. So can you take us through the early stages from your perspective? Looking back, did you have a certain approach that you took? And what was that like? What was the communication like between you and your husband during those early stages?

SPEAKER_02

I think in the grand scheme of things, I know I was extremely lucky with uh his gambling addiction, my second husband, because it we still made it. We weren't financially ruined, but we still made it. He asked early on for help, but he didn't he asked for help, but then he didn't get help. And so my thought was, and I I guess I didn't know enabling at that time, but my thought was I'm going to go and get help, and hopefully he'll see that I'm getting help, and he won't want me to leave him behind. And I did actually, I started going uh to Gamanon. We only have in the entire state of Nevada, we only have two meetings. If that's not pathetic, I don't know what is, but there's a whole nother reason for that, I believe. But I was going to the meetings, uh, I had to stop for a short period of time because I got a job and that Tuesday meeting was in the mornings, but I started going on and I've religiously been going to two meetings a week for over three years now. And I was just determined that I was gonna educate myself about uh this addiction, find out everything that I could about it. And I don't believe that I ever really enabled him, which I consider myself happy accident, because I I could have just as easily been enabling him too. But I kind of just sat there and showed him what I was doing in hopes that he would say, Oh, okay, I get it. She's getting better and I'm still where I was. And so that's kind of where I was. And then after eight months, he finally decided he wanted to go to a GA meeting. And I went with him. He asked me to go with him. I told him I would go with him, and I went to him for as many meetings as he needed me to be there. And obviously now he goes by himself. Um, but I just being by his side really and letting him know that I would be there for whatever he needed. I felt like I didn't push him as hard as I know. I'm sure I probably did looking back, maybe on his side, but I wasn't, you know, cramming it down his throat. You have to do this, you have to do this. And he ultimately ended up going to counseling by himself and going through an an outpatient program and doing that by himself. But it was just he just needed that first help taking that first step.

SPEAKER_00

And I I can't speak for you, Christina, but I know, you know, when I went to my GA meetings early on, whenever a spouse or a parent came into that room with that person, I mean, that always just hit so hard because you just see the you see the support and you see the love and you see that extra, you just get that extra dose of medicine that night. And so I'm sure that you touched so many other lives in those meetings, you know, being there every week with them. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02

And we're pretty lucky. We have uh once a month, we have a combined meeting, which is invaluable for both sides. And it that meeting is usually packed to the gills with everybody that that comes in to that meeting. So if if any of you have not ever been to a combined Gammonon GA meeting, it's eye-opening to say the least.

SPEAKER_00

Love that.

SPEAKER_01

I I I would love to go to one, but I've even in the open meetings in GA, we were, I don't think I ever saw um a spouse come in. I've really been to a few conferences where, you know, they were there were couples there. Um, but I just want to kind of identify the difference between support and enabling for anybody who might be wondering, who might be kind of in the early stages, right? Um you know, support is helping somebody face reality, face the challenges ahead, face what's going on, whereas enabling is helping somebody avoid it, right? So, like when when you're supporting somebody, you support them doing the right things, taking the right steps. And when you're enabling somebody, you're enabling the the bad behavior, right? Allowing them not to take accountability and those types of things. So I just wanted to put that clarification out there because you were kind of, you know, really talking about it in a way of like the you know, to your point, Adam, your question of like, how do you help them, but also help yourself. And and, you know, I think it's that realization that you are on your journey and he's gotta be on his because you both have to do the work individually, right? But then there's this piece where you come together. And I've talked to affected others before, and sometimes that recovery isn't just like parallel, sometimes it's a little behind and back and forth. Did you experience some of that yourself where maybe you were a little further? I mean, I know that you started eight months before he did, but were there times where you were just a lot further down the road, or times maybe he was, and you guys had to kind of reconnect and and realign?

SPEAKER_02

I saw a graph just recently, and I can send it to you if um if you'd like to see it. I I don't have it ready right now, but it showed the difference of recovery for the uh gambler and then the affected other. And the gambling, as soon as they got into recovery, you know, there were bumps and stuff like that, but it was kind of an upward trajectory. The affected other was still down here at the bottom and then slowly made its way up. And I think one of the biggest things that I see, the problems that I see is that as soon as, and I'm not saying every gambler or every addict, as soon as they get into recovery, it's almost like there's no stopping them. We got this, I'm doing this, I'm doing everything. And they expect us to come in. Trust is supposed to come back, love is supposed to come back, all of this stuff is supposed to happen, and they are shocked when we are still looking at them like we can't even stand to be in a room with them. And I've told I've told people this a million times before, because in NGA, you get the little keychain for 30 days, 60 days, what? And I told them for when my husband was there for his one year, I said, if I had known that all I had to do was give my husband a damn keychain to get him to do stuff, I would have been doing this all the time. Here's you did the laundry, babe. Thank you. Here, you cleaned the bathroom, thank you. But it's just it's frustrating because I always say trust is the first thing to leave, it's the last thing to come back. But when somebody goes into recovery, an addict goes into recovery, they instantly think we should trust them. And I um Matt and I butted heads quite a bit at the beginning because he kept saying, Look, I'm doing the work, I'm doing this, I'm I'm I'm recovering, I'm getting better. But it was not the same as being long-term down the road. It just takes so much time for us to get out of the swamp, you know, basically of what we were living in.

SPEAKER_00

This is a unique spot in evive live because this is the first time where like I don't know if I entirely agree with you. Um I mean, well, no, I so I wrote down I wrote down a question where I I wrote down trust and like because you know, oftentimes parents or spouses, if if someone slips or if someone like says they're doing X, Y, and Z and recovery and they find out they're not, the the the first response is usually anger and shame. And and it's just a natural, that's a natural instinct. But I think we can all agree that like that never works and that that that that is not the way to go. But so I take a little bit, I I want to push back a little bit because I I do think uh 100% when someone hits 30 days, they want their cookie and they want their metal and they think like it's it's cured. But I also think there are people like I mean also I'm one of them, where like I still I'm four years in, I don't expect certain people in my life to fully trust me yet. And so I don't think it's a you know, you said that like every all they all think that way. I don't think we all think that way, but I I do think that it's it's definitely something that as someone who's been through it, it's it's a it's a fair point to be like relax, guy, like enjoy your keychain, congrats on one year, but like I'm thinking of the last 10 and let's just take this a day at a time, right? But so when do you ever think you'll get to a point where the trust is fully back? And is that even like is that even like necessary?

SPEAKER_02

Well, we say here, I didn't come up with that. My actually, my new co-host did, she says, trust but verify.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because you would never go into another relationship, you would never go into a business relationship and say, hey, he's got it all, he's paying the bills, he's doing this or whatever it is. But we go into these marriages with two separate people who have lived two separate lives, and we're supposed to combine everything all at once and trust in for with no good reason, we're just trusting these people that they're gonna do what we would do. And so I always say trust but verify now, because it you you can have trust, but it doesn't hurt to ask. Sure, you know, and then obviously as the as time goes by and you start rebuilding that trust, then even when you do trust and verify, it happens less and less. And I I totally agree with you, Adam. I shouldn't say every one of them, because that is just generalizing. But yes, a lot of a lot of of people um I might say. And then yes, there are for sure people that I know um that know there are people in their lives that will never trust them again, no matter what they do, no matter how many amends they make or any way that they change. They will always be at arm's length, basically.

SPEAKER_00

No, and you know, as you're talking, I'm realizing too that it's like, you know, any anyone that I meet who's struggling with gambling, I can confidently say I know how you feel. I've been in your shoes, but for you, I have a great idea of how you feel, but I don't truly know how you feel, right? I have no idea. I once again, that's probably like 80%, but I don't fully know what it's like for my parents to go through for 20 years, for my, you know, ex-girlfriends, for some of my friends, for you, like for all these people. So yeah, I I fully understand and fully empathize with the fact that, like, God forbid, because it's not like you hit one, two, three, four years, you're home free. Let's say you do continue to trust and verify, and then God forbid someone slips and goes back out after 10 years. What does that do to the blank other? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01

Too, like, just in general, partnerships and and in life, that trust by verify is always like a should just be a key component, you know, like partnerships generally, you see both sides of things, there's a lot of transparency. Um, but I think it's also really common, especially for a lot of households, that one or the other takes on the full responsibility of the finances. It's sometimes the woman, sometimes it's the man. You never really know. But there's usually a person that kind of takes that role on and maybe handles everything while the other person's handling the home or handling something else. And so there is a lot of trust there. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with both those impacted and the gambler about the hiding and the secrecy and things like that on both sides. But, you know, I think even now the trust, but verify, I think it just holds true. I say that even to my own partner. I've celebrated five years. Um, and as we merge our life together, it's a constant thing I say to him. I'm like, I don't assume for him to just truly trust me. I assume for him to trust me, but also verify, you know, make sure I'm, you know, are my accounts are transparent to him, like those types of things. Um, and that's just a genuine practice in my life now as a person in recovery. But I kind of want to touch a little bit on what you said about like wanting that all of everything that they had before the trust was broken, they want it back. And that's a really common thing in early recovery. I see this every day. And it's just like you want your life fixed immediately. And you you want things to be to feel better immediately. So you ask for those things that you don't necessarily deserve immediately, just to kind of, you know, feel better and to feel like you're doing the right thing. And and and also that, you know, and I know a lot of that is is this the scariness and the consequences of the harm, you know, that gambling has caused. But I just know even for my own self, like I wanted the consequences to be over with as quickly as possible. But as I progressed in my own recovery, I realized how important those consequences were for me to stay on track and to continue on in recovery and to continue to change those patterns, those behaviors, and all of those things. But I know that early in recovery, you just want everything better. And it takes you really leaning into recovery and doing the work of recovery to realize it's gonna take time and it should take time.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, absolutely. I don't think really anybody thinks it's gonna happen overnight. We would love it to. And I have even had some affected others say, I wish things were just the way it was before. Do you really? Do you really? Because you had no idea what was going on. Your bank account was empty, you couldn't pay the mortgage, you were fighting every night when it came to talking about anything. Do you really want it the way that it was before? And I get it, it somehow that yes, it was probably ignorance is bliss, right? That's that's probably where they were. But yeah, and and don't think for a minute that our hearts don't break for every single one that's out there with us this addiction.

SPEAKER_00

Before we wrap up, I I wanna I wanna hear about the podcast. How did how did the podcast come about? And yeah, tell it, tell us everything.

SPEAKER_02

So two years ago, I went to the Nevada problem gambling convention, and Christina and Brian were there speaking. Yay! And they literally had talked for maybe two minutes, and I'm texting. I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention, but I'm texting to my friend that's in Gamanon. Oh my God, we need to start a podcast. And she texts me back, she goes, I was just thinking about that about an hour ago. So we literally, I'm the type of person, it's so funny, I should be the compulsive gambler because I see and I do. So I just instantly started throwing stuff together, and I'm like, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna do this? Let's just do it. Come on, let's go. And we started putting it together and we started, we just had our year in January. But uh before the summer, Katie, my co-host, decided that she didn't want to be in this area anymore. It it really destroyed her. Uh, and we're still good friends to this day, but there's a lot of other things going on in her life that she had to think about and and take care of. And I spent the summer thinking, you know what, I can't do this alone. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it. And it's just one of those things that happens. I got an email literally one of the days after I thought that, and somebody was emailing and they said, I have to thank you for your podcast. It changed my life. And it was at that moment that I knew I had to keep going on. So I I did, I just kept going on by myself for a long time, and I did a lot of interviews, and I finally talked to one of my Gamanon family friends, and she's the one that came up with the Truspa verify for all of us over here in the southern Nevada. But she and she is going to uh co-host with me. She's still working, she's about to retire, but she should be co-hosting here with me shortly. We try and get together as often as we can. But I honestly think this was one of the best things. I don't know if you ever saw that movie, Collateral Beauty, but it came out several years ago. Will Smith was in it. It was an amazing movie. I loved it. It was a flop. But that is what I consider my life collateral beauty. Because if I had not, even the first time with the first compulsive gambler, I could have moved on and never been in that arena again. But the second time, it was almost like the universe was telling me, no, no, no, you're supposed to be here. You're supposed to be doing this. And I would not have done this podcast if I hadn't been in this situation. And And this is this podcast that I do keeps me going. It inspires me. It moves me forward. And I just want people to know that they're not alone. And I want other people to know you need to take care of yourself first. Uh, you know, you don't have to live like this for 25 years in constant anxiety or despair or sadness because you have somebody who's gambling. And, you know, I'm trying to kind of evolve the podcast and get some self-help things out there. I just yesterday interviewed a relationship coach. I mean, who wants to work on the relationship when you just want to stab the person? But it's it's one of those things, it's kind of like down the road kind of things, you know, once you get through the really, really hard part, then you kind of have to rebuild your relationship. So I have a relationship coach. I had a um a lady, a doctor that came on and she spoke about uh um gaslighting. And uh I have a person coming on, he writes poems and he did a lot of healing in that respect. I'm trying to get uh like a meditation coach, a yoga, the I'm trying to kind of branch out, but we're still talking about the the gambling addiction. We're still talking about that, but we're just talking about how you take care of yourself too, in the midst of this.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And and you know, I'm I'm just so appreciative that there are that you're out there doing your podcast and that you're you're trying to get information out to those that are impacted by gambling. I mean, we you kind of mentioned this, there wasn't a lot of resources when you stepped in. Um, there's not a lot of resources here in Oklahoma. I don't even think we have a Gamanon meeting in our state. Um, if you're watching this and you know of one, let me know. Um, but I'm pretty sure, you know, and so I think that's a lot of people are finding that as well. So I'm so happy that you're doing this work and that you're you're um, you know, helping those because we certainly need more and more resources. Um, so this is kind of our closing question that we like to ask, you know, those who are on the podcast is what gives you hope today for the work that you're doing, for the work that you see being done? What gives you hope today?

SPEAKER_02

Gosh, you know, I that I think that every day there's more and more people who are jumping onto this, and more and more people that are becoming educated about this addiction. That it's not just why can't you just stop? You know, it we're learning more about it. And yes, we are where alcohol was in the 80s, we're very slow, but I think the amount of traction because we've seen that before, the amount of traction that we're gaining is so much faster now, especially with social media and all of those kind of things, which I have a love-hate relationship with, but there's so many more people out there who are willing to help and really willing to carry the torch with us that I think I really feel like we're just gaining traction faster and faster and faster. And that's what we need. We we need to help our young people that are out there that are in the midst of all of this. We just need education on this so that people can understand. And they aren't sitting there not understanding what this is at all. They have a name that they can call it, which I didn't I didn't have even until the second time. I didn't, I didn't know what my situation was. There was a lot of other things going on there, but I I didn't know anything. I didn't know there was any such thing as gambling addiction or anything like that. But I'm just so excited to be in this arena together with so many amazing people. That is the main thing. And I know that we're gonna make changes. I know that we're gonna change the world, and it's so exciting to be on like the groundbreaking floor of all of this and seeing all these changes happen literally on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, I concur. Well, thank you so much, Melissa, for taking the time and coming on and talking with me and Adam. Uh, we really appreciate the work that you're doing. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. And check out Making Bets in a Burning House. I'm assuming it's available all major podcast platforms.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. Great stuff. Thank you again, Melissa.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you.