Evive Live

Matt Zarb-Cousin | Co-Founder of Gamban

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0:00 | 51:47

Matt Zarb-Cousin started gambling at 16, lost £20,000 by 20, and quit on his 20th birthday. What followed became one of the most impactful recovery journeys in the gambling harm space.

In this episode of Evive Live, Adam and Christina sit down with Matt to talk about how Gamban works, why it's nearly impossible to remove on iPhones, and why blocking software is one layer of a recovery ecosystem rather than a standalone solution. Matt also shares a sharp-eyed view of what happened when US states legalized sports betting and British operators crossed the Atlantic, why prediction markets and leveraged trading are gambling by another name, and what it will take for American policy to catch up with where the UK eventually got to.

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.

SPEAKER_00

Hi everyone. Welcome back to EVIB Live. I'm Christina.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm Adam.

SPEAKER_00

And we just had a wonderful conversation with Matt, Zarb cousin, uh, who is one of the co-founders of Gamban. And it was really great to hear how Gamban was created, how it was started, and all the amazing things they've done since.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was another cool conversation where you knew the story and I didn't. So like I just, you know, I kind of was taking it all in. Um, you know, I've known of Matt, I've met Matt, I've shook his hand, but like never really got to have a conversation with him. So this was really cool. I uh I had no idea. I knew we had lived experience, but I didn't realize it was so quick, right? Like 16 to 20. He got in, he got out, and uh, and then he just went on this amazing journey where he created this. I mean, I don't think groundbreaking, I don't think that's like an overstatement, like this groundbreaking app.

SPEAKER_00

Life-changing app for a lot of people to be able to have that blocking in place. And it still kind of surprises me today that people don't even realize like blocking apps even exist. Like every day somebody comes into one of the communities and it's just like, what can I do? And it's like, you say, Oh, there's these amazing, you know, this amazing software that helps block. And it's it changes people's, you know, life and what recovery is going to look like for them. So I think we talk about in there, it's just one of the amazing tools that you can add to the foundation of your own recovery, right? Partnered with therapy, self-exclusion, um, of course, evive and community, like it having the blocking software if if online is, you know, the issue, it it just becomes this whole package. And and just super grateful for the conversation and his, you know, just him being sharing it with us.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. And and you know, I'm you know me, I'm always the glasses half empty guy when it tends to be conversations that you and I have. And, you know, I think about my own experience where when I self-excluded from two casinos, I just moved and found new casinos, right? Like this the disease always found a way. But if I'm putting myself in the shoes of the modern day gambler, a lot of these people, they exclusively bet online. They they have no interest in casinos, they have no interest in table games or poker or touching chips or scratch-off tickets. So if they can utilize this app and it can put that barrier in place, it is a game changer. And and and a lot of people, if it was me, yes, I would then find another way to gamble. But a lot of these people, to Matt's point that he mentioned in the conversation we're about to hear, a lot of the people that are downloading Gamban, they're not at the far end of that spectrum like I was towards the end, right? Like they're in the early stages, they're developing these patterns, they're, they're, they're noticing that this is starting to become out of control, and that's when they and that's when they do it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. And I think no matter where you are in the gambling harm spectrum, like it's still gonna be a super helpful tool.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Um, again, paired with maybe treatment needs to be a little more extensive or less extensive, but um yeah, so it was a fantastic conversation, and I guess we should just get on get on into it, right?

SPEAKER_01

Let's do it. Yeah, here it is. Our conversation with Matt, the co-founder of Gamban. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons of the Modern Meeting Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook of the Broke Girls Society, and our guest today, this is a big guest. This is a big get for us. He is the co-founder of Gamban. We're gonna get right into it. Matt Zarb Cousin. Matt, welcome to evive live. Thank you for having me. What a lovely introduction.

SPEAKER_02

I don't I don't know if it I don't we'll see if it's a good get for the end. We visit that at the end.

SPEAKER_01

No, this is a good get for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Um that's why I have Adam always do the introductions because it'd be like, hey Matt, thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_01

Hey Matt. Hey Matt, I'm Christina. Good to see you. Hi. Um, no, Matt. So, you know, before we get into Gamban, um, you know, we we uh we all share lived experience and uh want to hear a little bit about your story. I did a little bit of research. It sounds like you did a lot early on and you were able to kind of to get off that path pretty quickly. Tell us a little bit about uh your story.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, sure. I I actually I was telling my uh sort of gambling story to someone earlier, uh, and uh it just made me kind of really feel quite old because I got addicted to fixed odds betting terminals, which were machines in betting shops. So in the UK, you have betting shops, people go in and you can bet on racing sports, and there's machines in there, and and they were called fixed odds best terminals, and you used to be able to bet up to £100 every spin, and you could bet three times a minute. And the main game on that was roulette, and I went into one of these shops for the first time when I was about 16. I put a bet on a football match and um found the machines, and that was my first experience of roulette, which was a sort of fast-paced, um instantaneous like uh experience compared to betting on a football match, which obviously is a 90-minute event and you know it's very different kind of experience. Um so yeah, I mean, whereas I think a lot of the people that use Gamban now, obviously, will be addicted to online gambling and that kind of predominates, particularly online casino. I got addicted to though that content but on a machine. And uh yeah, I mean, I as I say, I started when I was underage, I was 16, supposed to be 18, to gamble, and I got addicted to it very, very quickly because I had a lot of early big wins playing roulette, and I um found the obviously the the whole kind of engagement with the machine and the the addictive nature of the content and the product um quite captivating, and it's unlike a a casino table game, it's uh uh a machine is a solo activity, or it's just it's just you in the machine, and there's uh a real kind of escapism element to it. And I think roulette anyway is a really addictive game that has been kind of refined over centuries. Um at one point it was a band all over Europe, the only place you could play it was in Monte Carlo. And what the betting industry did in the UK was take that game, make it much faster, make it a solo activity, put it on a machine in easily accessible venues, and yeah, as I say, I got addicted to it very, very quickly. I I lost probably I'd say at least £20,000 in that time between like me starting gambling and me hitting a kind of rock bottom when I was 20 or when I was 19. Um and then I managed to quit on my 20th birthday. So that was when I had my last bet. But you know, that that descent to that kind of rock bottom moment, I um had sold most of my possessions, I had got into huge amounts of debt, I would maxed out several overdrafts, I had uh every everything sort of revolved around gambling and wanting to gamble. And that was kind of it dominated my life um for that time. So I know exactly how addictive it can be. I know that certain gambling products can be much more addictive than others. That's my that was definitely my experience. You know, I could put a bet on the football and that would be that. But this kind of constant um repetitive event frequency where you're just basically it, I think it not encourages, but it exacerbates, I think, the propensity to chase losses. That's kind of I think what some of these gambling products do. Um, there was a thing, there was a repeat bet button on the machine. That was a relatively kind of new innovation for casino games, right? So in the past, casino table games, if you go and play roulette, you can't press repeat bet. You've got to actually physically put the chips on the board. There's a natural break between spins. With the fixed odds betting terminals, it was bet, repeat bet, repeat bet, you know, just instantaneous. And yeah, it was a big problem. But it was this, it was the ability to stake up to a hundred pounds of spin. That's where the real harm was done. And what year was this, Matt? So this was well, I started in 2006. Okay. And I and I um quit in 2010.

SPEAKER_01

And and were you doing this by yourself mostly, or was it something that was social with your friends?

SPEAKER_02

Uh initially I would go into the shops with my friends, sometimes on my school lunch break. I mean, that that was how lax the kind of safeguards were back then. Um and putting on, you know, football bets and all that sort of stuff. But then the machines were there, and that in in what was supposedly or supposed to be an ambient gambling environment, you know, that was like, because I'd say if you're looking at the spectrum of gambling products, the lottery, single-event betting on racing or football, that's probably on the lower end of the harm that's associated with gambling is sort of experienced in that type of gambling. But casino games and swaps, that's where much more harm is associated. But to put those machines in that environment as if all gambling is the same, that was a you know, a massive mistake. And and just a bit more about these machines. Like they they were the biggest revenue driver in the gambling industry. They generated, you know, by per product, they were generated over two billion a year towards the end in revenues and much more than you know, over-the-counter betting. It basically completely dominated the the gambling industry. They were the machine- the bookmakers were allowed four machines in each shop. They used to open up several different shops on the same road to get more of these machines in. Um, and they were everywhere. There were, you know, 8,000 betting shops, 9,000 betting shops with four machines each. You know, they were all over the country. And I was in recovery, I was involved with a campaign to get the maximum bet reduced from £100 down to two pounds a spin. And that succeeded. Um, we managed to get that implemented in 2019. It took a long time. And in the meantime, in parallel to that, online gambling exploded. And then you had, you know, in 2014, we in Britain formally legalized online gambling. And then you had the advent of smartphones and the you know, 4G, 5G internet that was kind of making it making it possible to gamble on these types of products wherever you are. So that's the thing. Technology overtakes um policy reform.

SPEAKER_01

So I just thought of a question I gotta ask you. So whenever I talk to someone from the UK or Australia, I think these are two, you know, areas of the world where gambling, it it just was accepted and legalized and it exploded before the United States, right? And in 2018, when the Supreme Court essentially legalized sports betting, you know, you were at this point, you were in, you were well into creating Gamban, I think, or you were on the way to creating it and you're doing all this amazing advocacy work. What did you have any conversations with people in the States, or did you see what we were doing? And, you know, if it were me and I were you, I would have been like, hello, like look, learn from us. Look what we've been putting our citizens through. Like, don't do it. Like, what was your perspective in 2018 when all this was going down?

SPEAKER_02

I thought it was gonna be uh a complete disaster because I I I the the problem with the the problem, I think, with the expansion, the rapid expansion of gambling in the US is that a lot of the operators that were getting licensed were those that had already, I think, had a pretty bad track record in Britain. And what what the operators in Britain had done prior to the formal legalization or licensing of online gambling in 2014, which uh it wasn't illegal, but it wasn't formally regulated until 2014. What they'd done is they'd gone offshore, they'd gone to tax havens like Gibraltar, Isle of Man, where there was very little regulation or oversight. And they had basically developed company cultures that were extremely ruthless and very much not aligned with social responsibility. And, you know, that's where you got things like VIP programs and, you know, lots of lots of policies and and uh commercial practices that were exploitative, I think, is is a is fair to say. And you know, people talk about now the black market and how bad the black market is. The regulated market in Britain, the operators, they were worse before 2014. Worse. They were, you know, they were they just stopped at nothing to to build their asset values. And they did that in, as I say, in jurisdictions where they weren't paying tax. Now, when we started regulating them, that started to be wound back a little bit. They're they were reined in to a large extent. They still need more reining in, as it happens, but you know, they're there it's much better than it was. But I but my worry was that once we started reining them in in Britain, they would then go to the US. They would think it's the gold rush over there, and then they would just go back to how they were. And it's kind of happened. Like, like I don't I don't think that they, you know, it's happened, I think the prime example of that is the VIP programs, right? They've just gone, okay, they're now basically regulated out of existence in Britain, where, you know, operators now have to do an affordability check before they can make someone a VIP. And when they introduced that, by the way, 90 the number of VIPs went down by 95%. So that's how many people were VIPs that shouldn't have been. And they've kind of just gone to the US and they've just restarted all of that. Like that's just now kind of so it's gonna take the state legislatures a long time, I think, to catch up with where we got to. And we got there too slow anyway. And and that was, you know, through kind of the coll just, you know, through all the collateral damage that had to kind of take place for for us to get to that point, but all the people that were harmed and all that kind of stuff. But then I think you had this kind of twin issue of the operators going over there, trying to basically revive all of these practices that have been regulated out of existence in Britain. But then also the state legislatures wanting the tax revenue and therefore being kind of more permissive in order to grow the industry and get the tax revenue. And I think it's only now we're seeing a lot of states recognize the harms that have been caused by that approach, and we're having much more productive conversations with with the states now. And and that's positive, I guess. But it but I think, you know, as I say, it's taken whatever, eight years to get here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it and you're right, it there there is a long road ahead, and they probably came over here, there's no federal oversight, right? Aside from just the few things that that they've allowed to happen, right? There's no federal oversight, so everything is individual to the state. And those states a lot of times don't communicate with each other. And so you've got, like, I'm in a state that that has tremendous gambling and a high prevalence rate of 6.3% of our adults experiencing some type of harm, not necessarily lose your house kind of harm, but some type of harm, right? But kind of going back to one, I've always been so oppressed, um impressed because I've heard your story for a long time, yours and and Gambans, and I've always been so impressed of how young you were and how you wanted to, you recognize change that needed to happen in the midst of your own recovery and all of this stuff, which kind of brings us into how Gamban came about. And it all started with you meeting your fellow uh co-founder Jack, uh, which I adore, Jack. I he's he's a great guy. And and I don't know if I mentioned this early on, but Gamban was an early supporter of the Broke Girl Society and continuously a supporter of uh the work I do in the space, specifically around women. So would you be open to sharing kind of how that started and how you you're both so young and you you both have made such tremendous impact and it's just impressive. So love to hear that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, thanks. So so I was in the midst of um uh the policy reform campaign on fixed dots better than terminals uh in around 2015, and uh I I was doing a lot of um interviews and TV and uh broadcast media and all that kind of stuff on the campaign and sort of putting myself out there and my story and all that sort of stuff. So I guess Jack found me through that and um contacted me through LinkedIn and said, I I've you know seen the work that you've been doing, and uh, I think I've got this prototype of like how I can block gambling on on Mac computers, which was not possible at that time. Like there has been other blocking softwares in the past, they've not been able to do it, they hadn't been able to do it on on Mac, right? So so I thought that's good because I'm in I'm doing this campaign now uh on um on the on the fixed odds betting terminals, getting the stake down to two pounds a spin, you know, trying to eliminate the roulette content, which is really addictive, but now people can get onto roulette online and they can get onto roulette on their smartphones and and what's for what's available for them. You know, I really kind of you know I was I I was thinking in the immediate term, you know, self-exclusion, that there was no multi-operator self-exclusion at that time. You know, it was very rudimentary, the regulations. The gambling commission had only just started regulating on my gambling. So so when he got in touch, I was like, yeah, this really needs to happen and and we need to do it, do this properly. Like this is something that can really help people. And uh, I don't know about you guys, but like when I was gambling, I had quite a lot of moments where I said, I don't want to do that again. Um, after a big loss, uh, you know so many moments.

SPEAKER_00

So many moments.

unknown

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02

So this so this is the thing, right? You you you have the the cla the moment of clarity after, which is which happens after six severe harm has occurred in that moment, right? So when so after a big losing session, I would say, I never want to do that again. I never want to do that again. And maybe like deep down, I I knew I would, but I didn't want to, and I was motivated to not. So I always thought like if self-exclusion was effective, it it can act as a kind of upstream intervention because you, even though you've already experienced harm, it's not prevented all the harm, it can prevent the future harm or like you know what would have otherwise been. So I was like, if we can get so if we can make this effective, we can stop, you know, some so many people falling into deeper addiction, deeper debt, deeper harm. Um and that was what really appealed, that that was really appealed to me. Um, because I'm I am generally, you know, that's hence my focus on policy reform. I'm more interested in in upstream interventions, and more interested in in how help stopping people, you know, helping to stop people get to the point of crisis. You know, I don't I don't think we should, in terms of like how we deploy resources, I don't think our focus should always be on people who are already addicted. You know, some that those people need help and they're a priority. But I think if we can prevent those people getting to that point, that's much better, better for everyone, right? So I I felt like Gamban has like a lot of uses in in prevention as well. And the important thing was getting it right and making it effective. And we managed to get um investment and um we developed versions for every device and uh we we had a kind of evaluation done by the commissioner in the in in the UK and we started working with them and uh it we we tried to you know do what we could really to to build um the user base and to build the uh revenues that we knew we needed to sustain. And and this is the thing, like if you do anything properly, you you just you need to get the m you need to get the money in. Like there's just it is difficult to do well, it's difficult to do anything properly. And it took many years to get to the point where we were able to cover our costs and we weren't running at a loss. And that you know that that moment came when we were we were able to get grant funding in 2021 in in the UK to make Ganman free. And um that we've in in parallel to that, you know, we've we've built a big user base um internationally on subs subscriptions. We've built um lots of users uh accessing Ganban now free through distributors, including it now in Louisiana, Michigan um and other countries in Europe. Um so I think where we where we were, like when we started Ganban, where we thought we thought it would be easier than it would be to develop the product, we thought it would be easier than it would be to make it sustainable. Um we we've now got a a very kind of well organized business that is very efficient and um able to kind of operate independent of the gambling industry, which is where I really wanted to get to. You know, we had in the past been funded by operators, like the gambling operators had paid for licenses and they distributed those licenses to to end users. And you might say, well, that's not that's not really a conflict of interest, but I really wanted to extricate ourselves from any dependence on the gambling industry and make sure we had our own voice and we could advocate on behalf of our users. That that was always a priority for me.

SPEAKER_01

And Matt, for people who, you know, I'm assuming that 99.9% of our audience knows what Gamban is, but for that 0.1%, just really quickly, like, you know, what does Gamban actually do? How does it work? And what separates it from these other blocking tools or apps that are out there?

SPEAKER_02

So Gamban blocks access to all gambling websites and apps globally. And we've now, as of yesterday, got 500,000 domains on the block list. So the scale of it is extraordinary. We're adding about 800 of days. Um and obviously they're all different domains, you know, mirror domains and like this, yeah, probably not 500,000 gambling websites, but it's like domains that are gambling related. Yeah. And um, if you download it onto your devices, you will not be able to access those sites, and the gambling apps will not load. Um, it works across all platforms. Uh, it's extremely difficult to remove on on all devices. Um, and we've now added a new version for iPhones, which is impossible to remove. And it you can, it's still in the final stages of beta, but you can request that from our customer support. And there are a couple of additional steps, but um the iPhone version now is is irremovable. Uh that took a lot of work and time and investment to make happen, and the devs did a great, great job of that. Our versions for Android are extremely effective and basically irremovable. Um, but with Android comes its own challenges. So there are lots of different device types, and Android works differently on all of them. So having Gamban work on as many different device types as well as it possibly can, that requires investment. It requires, you know, even if uh only sort of 2% of our user base will use a particular device, we want to make sure that it works well on that 2% of devices because our for us the mission is the most important thing that everyone who wants to be able to block their device from accessing gambling can do so and still use their device and the device not be you know impeded in its performance by having blocking software on it. And I you cannot say the same for other blocking software, um certainly on the irremovability point, and and that's that's the challenge. It's like I think I really want, and this is why you know I was happy to come on the Evive podcast, because I I think Sam DeMello and I, we we're very similar in that we want to drive up standards in this space and that we want there to be proper competition and investment, and we want to see the sector thrive and products that are designed to help people have the capacity to improve and grow. And that is what we've been doing since we started. We've been improving Ganban all the time, it's never finished, and and that's uh you know, there's lots of things we can do still, and we're you know, that that are in our roadmap, and we're very we're very open to to new ideas, and we're always speaking to and uh engaging with our users. And as you say, Christina, it's a really important aspect is I think building the community around it. And uh we recently launched this Discord server for people that maybe want to talk about their addiction. And we've got over 300 people on it. It only launched last month, but there's more and more people joining every day, and it's really important to me and Jack that we promote voices in the space that um are you know independent of the industry that can um challenge gambling policy, can be a voice for for people that that may or may not want to use gambling. You know, that's it, it's just be being, I think, present in the conversation and trying to, I think, support initiatives that we know are gonna help people. And and so that that's the way that we've we've we've run it. It's um I think for us it's always been about the mission. It's not, you know, and and I think in the early stages we were like, oh god, this is what we need to do what we kind of want to do and what we feel like we need to do. How are we ever gonna get there? You know, how much money we need. But we did it, we got there, and now we just want to kind of keep improving. And I think um we just want to have the conditions where we're able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And and I, you know, one of the things about Gamban and eVive, you know, it's built by a lived experience for those experiencing harm. And I think that that's a really, really important piece, you know, because the combination of Gamban, eVive setting in a support ecosystem, right? Which would also include other tools like self-exclusion, therapy, peer support, um, you know, all these different things that that fit all the pieces of the puzzle to help us um move away from the harm we've experienced to find recovery, um, rebuild those types of things. Um but when we're looking at all this, and and I remember from a really early conversation with you and Jack when we were talking about tools like Gamban and Evive, and of course evive wasn't even around then, but um looking at it as like it's just one layer, right? And I remember um you guys specifically saying it's it's a it's meant to be this um, what am I trying to say? Not I'm saying blocker, but it's meant to be this barrier, right? In the moment where you're feeling an urge or trigger, you know, it's meant to be this barrier to give you time to really think through it, right? Play the tape forward, whatever that looks like. Um, but it's not meant to be the end-all, right? That's why you have all these other tools, but having the blocker in place, it just, you know, it gives you that breathing room. It gives you that moment of like, let me rethink this. Um, what are your thoughts on that about building all these different kinds of infrastructures to really help help the momentum of moving away from gambling, not just one tool, you know, and into somebody who says, well, it doesn't, it's not helpful to have one tool. Um, what are your thoughts on that? Of like really building a solid ecosystem to help you?

SPEAKER_02

Definitely, yeah. So there's a a clinician in in England who runs the NHS Northern Gambling Service, which um uh is in several clinics in the north of England. And his name's Dr. Matt Gaskell, and he he spoke at our 10-year anniversary um uh event, and he said something I think quite quite interesting. Um he said, people coming into his clinics, they are hope, they feel hopeless, and they feel like they can't, there's you know, there's no way out, and they need to borrow a little bit of hope. And he said, What Ganman does is it gives them a bit of hope because it makes them feel like they can quit because they've got this thing can help them quit, and it just changes their outlook. Like it has a this is beyond like the tech and whether it how robust the tech is, it's like there's a psychological element to it of okay, there's a kind of line in the sand here now, I've got the blocking software on, and and your outlook is sort of shifted. And that's that was super interesting, and and also um, you know, people might install it and then like they might try and get around it and they can't, and then that's kind of like all they that's the only time they ever try and get around it because they know they can't. So it there is definitely something there. I think it's super interesting, but also we know that blocking software is not it's not the panacea, like it's not the the only thing, and it might be the thing that someone does first. So I think a lot of people intuitively, if they want to quit online gambling, might say, How do I block my computer from accessing it or how do I block my phone from accessing it? But um we have developed features within the app where we want to steer people to other resources, so whether that's like self-exclusion programs or revive or therapy, um, other services in in a particular jurisdiction, and we've customized that based on where they are in the world. So if you're, I mean, we just spoke to um iGaming Ontario earlier who are launching Betguard, which is their self-exclusion program, and they say, Oh, can you can you signpost that in the or we can promote that in the Canada section of the Ganban app, right? So all of these things we're trying to like build out pathways to other services, right? And we've even got a section on Ganban called layered self-exclusion, and that's something that we always promote to people. Um yes, you downloaded Ganban, yes, you've self-excluded with an operator, sign up to the multi-operator program. If you've got a bank that offers transaction blocks, I know that's probably not a thing in the US at the moment, but that's I think a really interesting innovation that's occurred in in the UK. Um do as many of these things as possible. And then when you have an urge to gamble, you yeah, you can't, or it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I it's kind of just to play devil's advocate, you know, I I've I was the type of gambler that I gambled on everything. Like, so if Gamban existed when I was gambling, it would have helped me, but then I would have just gone to scratch off tickets or brick and mortar. So to that person who's struggling, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, you said there was a bookmaker on every corner in the UK. Christina, you live in a state with 143 casinos. Matt, what what do you say to the people that reach out to you and say, you know, I'm trying, but like it's everywhere, right? Like I sympathize with these people, but at the end of the day, Christina, I know you've said it before. It's like, listen, I I entered recovery in a state with 140 casinos, and I was able to. So uh, yeah, question to both of you is that person who's like, how do you expect me in this current landscape to not be tempted and triggered 24-7?

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna I'm gonna let Matt answer that one first, because with the digital world, right? Yeah, it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's um, I think it's an interesting question. Like I think most people that use Gamban and find Gamban to be effective are perhaps not as addicted as people who will then find other forms of gambling to fill that void. Or in the UK context, if you block your debit card from um gambling transactions, you can't use that in any gambling premises either, which is quite interesting. Um there are also venue-based self-exclusions that you could go through. Uh I think the the scratch cards are interesting. Um, but there are now controls on how many you can buy uh at any one time. So I think I think it's got to be a combination of you know technological solutions plus policies, regulations. Um but also if someone is has got to that point of becoming that addicted, I think that's a sign of policy failure, to be honest. I think we should have caught them way further upstream. Yep. And and in that context, they need therapy, you know, they need proper treatment. Um and that doesn't mean that you know people who uh you know further upstream do not need therapy or would not benefit from that, but I think it's um I think I think we can do better to stop people getting to that point.

SPEAKER_01

No, and and you make a great point. And it's also, you know, we see this all the time in the evive community, where you know, people, and I was one of them, I early on in recovery, I was looking for that magic bullet. I was looking for that magic combination. And and you know, I thought, well, I'm going to GA meetings, so I'm good to go. And other people, well, I downloaded Gamban, I'm good to go. I I'm on the e Vive community every day, I'm good to go. It's a it's a it's a great start and it's a tool, but it's not, it's it's not sustainable, just that tool, right? Like, and so yeah, I I think I I think continuing to have these conversations and educating people and and and like you said, and then eventually taking that step into therapy, like that's what's really going to give people some sustained actual recovery.

SPEAKER_00

And I think if we expand it out, right? Like definitely all these amazing tools, especially tools that offer community and support, you know, like Gamban and EVIBE and all the other tools out there that that offer that and the support groups and things like that, I think those are all really great pieces. But for me, in my gambling, it was certainly um more related to internal stuff that I needed to work on, right? So it was a symptom of what was going on with me, what which is why oftentimes if you put some tools and and things in place and and you keep kind of burning through them, because I know certainly in the early days when I was trying to stop, um, you know, I'd put efforts in place, but I'd just figure out a way around them, right? And we can all we can all figure that out, which is why I love that you're making it a little bit harder to figure that out with the Gamban. Um, but I think again, it becomes like you've got to work on these internal issues that keep driving you for to these behaviors, whether, whether it's gambling, whether it's alcohol, whether it's um relationships, you know, sex, things like that that become compulsive and unhealthy substances, you know, anything can can become this unhealthy relationship, right? Um, and all of that is kind of due to stuff that maybe we need to address, or it's very rare that I get somebody that's just like, I don't know why I struggled with this. I had a great life. It's very, very rare that you get somebody that, but every once in a while you do, you're like, I have a good life, good job, good childhood. I don't know what this is about. Well, then sometimes it's more about are you happy where you are? Are you, you know, sometimes it takes a little bit more work and a little bit more digging. And, you know, there's always going to be an exception. But I think for most of us, like these tools really paired with these other resources like therapy, are really kind of what make recovery whole, what make us really be able to move away from whether it's gambling. Because I know for me, when I stopped gambling, I I moved into spending. And it was still like, it was still just rebuilding my relationship with money, reworking on the stuff that I needed to work on. And the more that I did that, the easier it is to live a life in a state where there's a casino in every corner. And I would I would say similar to somebody who's in recovery from alcohol. There's a bar on every corner in every state. Um, or even, you know, in the UK, there's there's gonna be pubs everywhere, there's gonna be access to it. And so you just kind of learn to, you know, live life with different coping mechanisms, different skills. Um, but having these resources in play certainly make the journey a lot easier, you know, having that support in that community.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, definitely. Um I I think the I think it's a combination of factors. I think people will have um certain predispositions to harm in gambling harm or whatever. Um, but I think that there are also structural factors like how you know their their upbringing, society, the prevalence of gambling, the normalization of it, the accessibility of it, all that kind of stuff. But then I think the third thing is is the gambling industry and the products and the optimization of um the engagement with the platform that people have and how much resource goes into getting people to engage beyond what they would otherwise have planned to. And and this is kind of before they get this is kind of like the conditioning phase. So I think I think for me, and I think certainly the others I've spoken to, it does help to understand that that gambling addiction is a process, you know, you don't you don't have one vet and suddenly you're addicted. I think it's it happens over a you know a period of time and certain things happen in order to bring that about. And you're not the only thing with agency in that process. There are other, you know, actors, there are other, you know, um there is you know a commercial entity on the other side, you know, that there's lots of things that have happened in order for you to get to that point. So I think people have I think when I've made this point to people, I think it does have a destigmatizing effect. It's in other words, it this is not a a moral failing or a a failure, a personality failure of why you become addicted to gambling. You become addicted to gambling because gambling is addictive. In order to get out of that addiction, yes, let's explore all of the underlying reasons why you may have become predisposed to that or why you have continued to engage even though you know that that thing is harming you, you know, let's figure that out. Like absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Now, so I'm assuming out of those 500,000, which is insane, 500,000 sites, that includes, you know, social casinos, crypto type gambling casinos. But I gotta ask, because, you know, through through the podcast, through eVive, we're getting a lot of people coming in talking about prediction markets, talking about trading, and they're addicted to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we've blocked uh leverage trading since 2021. Oh, awesome. Uh, because these are basically casinos, right? They're they're not I think they're in many in many respects, they're actually more dangerous than online gambling sites because you can lose more than your deposit. And and people think that they're investing or that you know they're doing something good and they're actually just gambling. And and I think that's very deceptive. Um we blocked Robin Hood before they had the predictions plug-in. You know, the so we just think about frictionless trading, things that try to get you to over trade, engage too much, keep looking at the app all the time, right? Like that is not that's gambling. That's like gambling. You're you're just if you're an if you're an investor, a retail investor, the best thing you can do is put your money in something and not look at it for five years and you know, it and then it might grow 20% or something, right? Like it that's kind of like what we want to be doing. Like you don't want to be Day trading or like trying to, I don't know, gain the market or time the market or like all that stuff. Like that is not, you know, you're up against monolithic, very well resourced um entities that are like kind of uh they're you you are not you are not gonna beat the market on like individual stocks and shares, that is not gonna happen. So people should not do that, really. I don't think um, particularly if you've got a gambling addiction. So that was the the the logic from our perspective was if people are coming to us and they're addicted to gambling, do we really want to leave them exposed to leverage trading? No, we don't. Do we want to leave them exposed to like forex and all that stuff and spread betting? Absolutely not. Let's block it. And the predictions is like just gambling, right? Like it's just gambling sites that have found a loophole where they're now CFTC regulated and that's why they can offer it in every state. But that's just it's just it's just gambling. So um, yeah, obviously we block those and we block things like skins betting and um like whatnot. You seen that? You seen yeah, those kind of sites that you can um bid on stuff. Uh yeah, uh fanatics, all that stuff, like gambling derivative products, I think. Yeah, that's awesome. I I hadn't I did not know fall within the regulation of gambling, but they should, you know. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Um, we're kind of coming now to the end of this conversation. We could just continue to talk about this forever. I mean, there's so many things that you guys are gonna continue to work on and try and help um navigate and reduce harm. You guys are always, always, you know, I see you guys everywhere. You, you're you're doing your darndest. Um, but when it comes to you personally, right? You personally are in recovery, long-term recovery. What's that like the three of us working in this space, right? Where we talk about gambling all the time, we're thinking about it all the time in the ways of how can we help continue to help people find the support, the resources, the things that they need, um, their family members and friends, right? This is just something that I and I'm certainly speaking for myself, but knowing how much work you you guys do in the space, like how do you protect yourself? What does that look like for you to be able to make sure you've got a solid recovery for yourself and you know navigate this space in the healthiest way possible for you and your family?

SPEAKER_02

I think it's it my addiction happened such a long time ago. And I've kind of I still remember what it's like to be addicted to gambling. I still remember where it took me and took me to a really dark place and you know, where I, you know, I didn't want to take my own life and you know, um, I know how, you know, where it can lead people. It's not just the financial harm, it's the the um the feeling of loss of agency and the feeling of like just not being able to get out, just being stuck in a cycle. That's kind of a thing that they described. But I I know I know exactly what that's like and and not deriving enjoyment out of anything else as well. That was the the worst thing, and that that I think exacerbates or compounds the depression that you feel in when the gambling harms occur. So um so I I mean but it was such a long time ago, and and yes, like I mean in some respects I guess I'm I'll never get out of the space because I work in it and I and I'm very motivated and passionate about helping others and uh and sort of trying to do a bit of good. Um so yeah, I mean it it's it's a good question. I mean I think I think that there are people who are who have been in the space sh for a shorter period of me than me who who have decided you know they don't want to talk about their story anymore. And you know, that's their way of kind of moving on. They're still working in gambling adjacent, gambling harm adjacent sector, but they're not they're saying I don't want to keep talking about my story. I don't want you know, it's like kind of reliving it again and again. And that's never been an issue for me, but like I think there are like I don't know, I think at some stage, you know, I think it's already happening actually. Like when when I talk about being addicted to machines, I just people just look at me like, how old are you? Like, do you know what I mean? It's just it just I feel like things have moved on so much. And I'm just really grateful that I didn't start gambling now. And I did start gambling when I was 16 and I quit when I was 20. That's very very lucky. I know how lucky I'm to have been for that to have happened. And so, and look all the things where it's led to, I think all positive things that that led to. I I just extremely privileged to be in a position where I can say that I'm sort of glad it happened, which is like amazing. Uh and I know that that doesn't apply to a lot of people, but it can, you know, it can apply to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00

Um who I can certainly resonate with that. I had to go through what I went through to be able to do what I'm doing today. The impact I have today is much greater because of the impact gambling had on my life. And so I I completely understand what you're saying there.

SPEAKER_01

Matt, last question. Um, we asked the same question to every guest to close out an episode of U Vive Live. What gives you hope? What gives you hope uh, you know, in the space as as we move forward? Uh gives me hope in the space.

SPEAKER_02

Um I think that there are some extremely committed people with lived experience who are very motivated, and there are more and more people that have become addicted, who have gone into recovery, who have become determined to make change and make a difference. So I guess it's paradoxically that as time goes on, there's going to be more and more people who want to be advocates for the type of policy change that will prevent harm in the future. And some of the most inspiring and determined and capable people I've met have been people in g in recovery from gambling addiction. I'm very hopeful about what is going to happen in the US and and elsewhere as a result of that.

SPEAKER_01

Hear, here. I love it.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much, Matt. This is a great conversation, and we really appreciate your time. I know there's that time change shift, and so I uh really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02

No worries at all. Thanks very much, guys. Was that all okay? I mean, that's just Oh, it was awesome. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like I I haven't said anything wrong, have I?

SPEAKER_01

No, not to me. No, we're we're keeping all this and we're keeping this too, maybe.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, keep a little chit chat at the end.

SPEAKER_02

But I just sort of went into a little bit of the zone. I think you guys are confident when you do because you just sort of made me really relax. And I was just sort of into the zone and I wasn't really thinking about what I was saying.

SPEAKER_01

So uh it was all good. It was all good. This was awesome. Great to meet you. Thank you, Matt.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks so much. Yeah, speak soon, hopefully. Yeah, all the best. Cheers. Bye.

SPEAKER_01

Take care.

SPEAKER_02

Bye.