Adam & Christina | Support in Recovery

Adam and Christina sit down without a guest to dig into one of the most important parts of recovery — support. Not the surface level version, but what it actually looks like in practice.  They talk through meetings, therapy, peer support, online communities, sponsors, and blocking software. They share what worked, what didn't, and why the first meeting you try might not be the right one. They also get into the harder conversations: why people pull away from support when they need it most, how to share your story safely, what unhealthy support looks like, and why setting the wrong goals can do more damage than having none at all. 

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.

Transcript

0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons from the Modern Meeting Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook of the Broker Society. And guess what? Today, this episode, you're stuck with just us. We're talking just us today. And I'm excited, Christina. How about you? Yeah, yeah. Because we don't normally get to do this. Like I think I've been on your the Modern Meeting Podcast. You know, we had a chat on that. And you haven't been on the BGS yet. We'll have to figure that out. Um But we did a joint episode too, remember? Yeah, yeah. And I'll put a poll in the BGS to see if they want Adam Lyons on the BGS podcast. Let's let's do that. Let's do that. But I'm not good at cold calling. Like you get me in there, they listen, I'm sure they'll enjoy it. But like if you give them the choice, they're probably gonna say no, but that's okay. But yeah, I think I think this is gonna be a good episode because we we had talked about wanting to do some joint episodes where it's just you and me talking about recovery um and kind of what it looks like. We're we're pretty similar in our journey. I'm a little bit ahead of you, I think. Um I'm about five and a half years uh in recovery. Almost four and a half, yep. Yeah. So but yeah, no, and I I I think I think you know, what we're gonna talk about today too is like, you know, not like uh debunking certain myths and stuff, but you know, people have a lot of questions, right? Like what is a what it what's the difference between a broke girl meeting and an evive community meeting or a GA meeting, right? Like, what is what is smart recovery exactly? Like, can I do both, right? Like the there's a lot of questions that people have that you know they're too afraid to ask because they don't want to out themselves, right? And you know, I think the other thing that is is important is you know, we have a lot of amazing people working in the space that, you know, substance abuse is their primary um area of expertise. Yet all these people now are getting these gambling certificates. And when I do these demos for revive and I and I meet with these people in these conferences, they have a lot of questions about the stuff that we're gonna talk about today. So I think we're gonna we're gonna check a lot of boxes off today. So I'm excited. Yeah, me too. And this is kind of one of my favorite, like anytime I can can share my own experience and kind of what what has been helpful for me or what I've seen helpful for other people. Um, because the theme of this is there's no one size fits all, right? Like some and and I'm very much a believer in um there's so many great resources out there and so many ways to find support and connection. Um and and always like if something, if you find something not working, like there's so many more options to try. It's just keep trying, keep being curious, right? So let's kind of bring it back down to what does support really mean? It doesn't mean that any one person has to know everything or has to be able to do everything. It really means that we're just not carrying everything ourselves, that we have support, whether it's support in better understanding what's going on with us, whether it's support in just getting through the day without placing a bed, whether it's it's family support, friend support, um, treatment support, like so many different options. Support can mean so many different things, but when we boil it down, it just means we're not doing this alone. Yeah. Like when you first said that, the first thing that popped in my head was to me, support is being heard, right? Yeah. Like support is I finally can tell someone something. I don't have to spill my whole story, but I can remember times when I was in active addiction. You know, if I was driving home from the casino with a coworker or something, or maybe I was at work and I was, you know, I was working in the poker rooms and I was managing the poker rooms and I was talking to a dealer. And, you know, if I ever opened up and then they said to me, like, you know what, I think I have a problem too. Even something like that, you know, it didn't, it didn't get me to stop, but it did, it made me feel better. It made me feel like I wasn't alone. You know what I mean? And so once we're in recovery, and that's just like dialed up to 100, you're meeting people like that all the time, every day. And every meeting you walk into, every time you log into e Vive and you go in the community, you're you're getting that instant connection with someone who has been in your shoes, you know? Absolutely. And and when you said that about like being in the car, like I never realized how much my story or just my experience would connect with people all over the world, right? And Uber car drivers, like I can't tell you how many times I've been in an Uber when somebody's like, Oh, what are you in town for? And I'm like, Oh, I'm talking at this problem gambling conference and or something like that. And they're like, Really? And because most of the time they're in in, you know, obviously in states and cities where where gambling is happening. And and I can't tell you how many people have shared their own struggle while driving me to the hotel or to the airport or to the conference. And and that has really been one of the most surprising things of like just me opening up and saying, Hey, I'm here for this, and then them saying, I've been struggling with it. And I I can't tell me tell you how many times I've given resources to the Uber person of like, you know, this these are this is where I would start, podcasts, you know, finding finding community and those types of things. So uh I'm excited to just start breaking it down. And I've kind of got a little list to kind of keep us on track a little bit, but feel free to take it in any direction you feel would be helpful. Um I think let's kind of start with why you hear in the rooms or with anyone that recovery is is best together versus alone, right? You I'm sure somebody has heard the saying, you can't do this alone, you can't recover alone. You know, there's always gonna be people out there of like, I can do it on my own, I cause this mess, and I'm gonna be the one to fix it, right? And I think we've all had those thoughts of like, I don't want to bring anybody into this, this is chaos, this is I'm embarrassed, I'm shameful, I'm you know, it's all really heavy and messy, and I don't know that I want somebody to see see that. But the minute I went to my very first GA meeting and shared that I am a person struggling with this, and to hear them, you know, say yeah, and to hear them um the encouragement and the me too, like I can't explain that feeling of being seen and heard for the first time in what felt like forever. Like just that moment, you know, GA didn't stay my program of recovery um after my first year, but just that connection in that moment, like these people had years of recovery, you know, their life wasn't necessarily still in the chaos that mine was in, but they understood it. Absolutely. They were they were there for me. Yeah, no, I I I think that, you know, my outlook on recovery is always evolving because of people like you and Sam and and because of, you know, I I take pride and I I try to attend more meetings now, which we'll get to later in the episode. And I I try to educate myself and I try to look at all different um perspectives. And something that has been brought to my attention recently that I've completely um kind of done a 180 on was, you know, if you talked to me literally a month ago, I would have said that maybe even a few weeks ago, I would have said that at some point everyone who is serious about recovery, they need to tell those close to them. They need to come clean to those close to them. And honestly, I don't believe that anymore because here's why. Not everybody is lucky enough to have parents as supportive as mine or spouses as understanding as some people, but you gotta tell someone, right? And that's what these groups are for. So, you know, to the person who is like, I can't tell anyone, uh, I just my my family, I just know how they're gonna react. That I used to think like, no, they're all gonna love you, everything's gonna be great. No, some families just, you know, I'm sure it's similar to people that, you know, um struggle with their sexual identity, right? And and they're and and they stay closeted because of that. I gambling is it sounds like it's it's similar, is you know, but no one's gonna judge you in any of these meetings, right? Or any of these groups. And so if you can't come clean to those in your life for whatever reason, you you have to come clean. That's why you know, you have to come clean to someone. To your earlier point, if there's one thing that I think we can all agree on, no matter what path, you can't do it alone. I know I've said it a thousand times, but I'm gonna keep saying it because there are still people out there that think they can. And I'll stop myself right there. There are some people who can, right? The vast majority of people can't. We need yeah, we need so we need support. And I think that's a really great point. And I I um I had a clinician friend tell me once she was helping me with some support groups I was doing, and she's she in this support group, she said, you don't owe anybody your story unless they've been impacted by your story. But and she really emphasized, you know, making sure that you tell somebody who's safe, you know, because she knew how important it was to not be carrying it alone, right? But she also knew that sometimes sharing our stories can cause more harm, especially in those earlier days of recovery, right? There gets to a point where you feel a little more capable, you feel a little stronger. And if I'm being really honest, right, our actions will always speak louder than our words at some point. If you got to the point that I did in my addiction and disorder. Um, so I wanted to back up anything I was saying with action, but you know, sometimes I've I've heard so many stories, like you and I are podcasters, right? Storytelling is what we do, what we share in with other people. And I have heard, you know, where they've shared what's going on with them and have been met with like invalidation, just stop. Um, you know, they don't have an understanding of what this disorder really is about. And so they're using their own experience and judgment. And sometimes that can cause more harm for the person. So, you know, when it comes to that point, you know, you it is really important that you have a community. And we'll go through some of the different communities that can be really helpful, but also understanding who and when you should share your story with. Like if somebody's impacted by our story, that needs to be part of the healing journey, the recovery journey. But working with a therapist can also be really helpful to navigate that conversation and that bridge. Sometimes if it's more challenging, let's say it's a spouse and there's harm there that that maybe hasn't been shared. You know, I always I always encourage having um an outside person help navigate, especially a therapist, help navigate those conversations. But um, you know, just being able to talk in a safe space like a meeting or a community and just be able to kind of talk about it while you're working those goals of trying to to share your story to those who need who you need to um as well, or a sponsor. A sponsor is always a good person to work with as well. And there's so many different layers to it too, right? Because it's like, you know, there are some people that early on in recovery, they have to come clean because they need some type of bailout, whether it's they need a place to live or they need, you know, financial relief. Um, but then, you know, there's other people who let's say they get six months under their belt, they're going to meetings, they're meeting with someone one-on-one, and they're so proud of themselves and they're getting so much love and support from the rooms that they do want to share it with their spouse or they do want to share it with their parents. But let's say they do, and then it's met with, you know, I'm gonna say it, it's met with ignorance, it's met with, you know, not being supportive, and that could derail someone. So, like putting myself in their shoes, like, yeah, that breaks my heart to think that there are some people who are months, some maybe years in these programs, yet they still kind of have to live in the shadows a little bit with people close to them. So it's it's it's a case by case, right? Um, but at the end of the day, for me, and this is what I tell people all the time once you're honest with yourself and you're honest with how you feel, if you're uh feeling better and you're managing your gambling or staying away from gambling and you're building that connection and you see positive changes in your life, you can't control what everyone else is thinking about you, right? That's Serenity Prayer 101, right? So, but if you're not, if you're still struggling, if you're still if you can't seem to put stuff together, you know, then that's when we do need to lean on your support and figure out, you know, what's missing. Like maybe, maybe my parents wouldn't react as poorly, right? Maybe my maybe my spouse wouldn't react as poorly, right? To your earlier point, we got to try everything. It's not just about trying the different paths, it's about trying whatever combination it is to get you feeling better. Yeah, and and to living a life you don't want to escape from. That's my favorite thing to say. So I've got a couple of questions. It's right above her head if you're watching on YouTube. Yeah. Um, okay, so I've got a couple of questions for you. And I just want to get your response. So, what do you see as the connection between isolation and maybe a setback or a slip in recovery? And just a quick clarification a setback is, you know, sometimes often referred to as a slip, where it's just a momentary you gambled and you're like, oh, then you pick up recovery back. Um, a reoccurrence of the behaviors where you're continuing to do that and you're not in active recovery. So I just always like to clarify that. But what do you think is the connection between isolation and that's risk? I think isolation is the addiction or the disease's best friend, right? Isolation is that just puts fuel on that fire of for me at least, it was putting fuel on the fire of the depressed, like the depressing thoughts, the entering the effort phase where I just say, whatever, you know. Um, but whenever I was in contact with someone, whenever I could open up with someone, even even prior to getting into recovery, it was always good to talk to somebody, right? Like, no matter who it was. And I think when we're alone in our thoughts, things can escalate really quickly. And once we enter that state of mind where it's just like, uh, whatever, and that's when the justifications start coming in. The I'm just gonna go one more time and then I'm gonna start Monday, or I'm just gonna one more time. This is my last hurrah. All of those thoughts, for me, they happen when you're isolating. Yeah. And and to follow up with my second question, which pairs well with that, is why do you think people often pull away uh from support when they need it most? Like, especially in early recovery, you know, like you go to a GA room, you automatically get a phone list, you have all the, you know, all these resources, but oftentimes it's like when you're thinking about it, the last thing on your mind is to reach out or to find support or to go to a meeting sometimes. So why do you think that is? Four words. They are not ready. They're just not quite there. They're not quite ready, right? Um, do I think that everyone needs to hit their rock bottom? Yes, but I'm gonna just tell you this. It might be an emotional rock bottom, it might be a financial rock bottom. There's no rock bottom is the same. When I entered recovery February 8th, 2022, I had a 730 credit score. I had money in the bank, but I was at my emotional rock bottom. I was I was spent. I I gambled for 20 years. And when I sat in that parking lot in Oklahoma, if you guys don't know my story, check out the modern meeting. But I was done. I had a spiritual awakening. I had something wash over me that I just I knew that I wanted to keep living this life. I wanted to keep living life. I could not live this life anymore. So it was an emotional rock bottom for me. And that's why, you know, I think I embraced, I I surrendered, right? People that come into these spaces, that come to into eVive, that that come on their brook role meetings, they might be close. But if they're not at their bottom, it's really hard to fully buy into whatever path they choose. Yeah, and and I agree with that to most most extent. And my last better. Your tone does not say you do. So give me, come on, push back, push back. Well, this is how I get better. This is how I get better, folks. You're getting a lot. It's it's very much like you have to be ready. Like nobody can force you to do it because like you can be given an ultimatum of saying, hey, you're gonna lose your marriage, you're gonna lose your home if you don't get into recovery, if you don't figure out this out, right? So oftentimes I think people find that kind of they're at it at a crossroads of like, you know, they're being told they have to do this, right? And so sometimes they're they're not emotionally ready to do it. There's still, there's still work to be done. But here's the thing like recovery is 100% work. And the person doing that work is the person in recovery, right? So whoever's giving you an ultimatum, they might be doing some work on their own of what they need to do for themselves. Um, but you're the one that has to show up. You're the one that has to do the meetings, that has to have the hard conversations, that has to learn to set with your feelings. All of these things that we have to learn in recovery, right? It's a different way of navigating life. Um, I've seen people in all levels, not necessarily, but I think you're right as far as the rock bottom, it just looks different for everybody. Like for me, a typical rock bottom or your rock bottom, I kept digging. I got the freaking bulldozer out and just kept going. You know, I was broke in every way possible, not just financially, right? I was broke physically, mentally, spiritually. Um, my credit was tanked. I owed everybody and everything. I hadn't filed taxes in years. Like it was really a really like I had nowhere to go. I don't even think I could have, I mean, I could have gone down more, but I wouldn't be here. And I think that that was the scariest part for me, that it's like I kept digging, I kept digging until it was like, um, you know, I was gonna end up not being here anymore. And so that was my rock bottom. And that was something changed in me. It changed the way that I started to address everything tenaciously. You know, I was like, I'm gonna dig myself out of it. And here I am five and a half years into recovery. And is my life perfect? No, but I have a good credit score again, and I have no debt and all of these things. And I'm not saying this, and I hope the person listening isn't like, well, how is she gonna understand how I'm feeling? Because I 100% know how you might be feeling, right? It took me five years of working my butt off to get to this place. Um, but I didn't do it alone. And that was, I didn't do it alone. I did it through hard work, I did it through my own choices, I did it through meetings and therapy and all those things, right? Um, and so I think, yeah, everybody's rock bottom looks different, or everybody's reason looks different. Um, because I've met people who haven't experienced financial harm who are experiencing maybe relationship harm, or maybe the goals that they had for themselves aren't being met because they're finding their their time sucked out between gambling. So, but then I've met people who've lost it all and are having to rebuild from the ground up. And, you know, so I don't think it's it's never gonna be a one size fits all when it comes to anything recovery, um, and how we address it and how we find it and how we work it. Uh, but it there is a recognition, you know, the the surrender, the accountability piece of like, I want to change and I've got to gotta show up to do that. So even though your tone, even though your tone was suggesting that you didn't agree with me, everything you just said, it sounds like you agreed with me. Yeah, I I like to keep you on your toes. You know, I don't like you thinking that what you say is is good. You know what I mean? Like I have to I have to make you I have to make you question yourself. This is this is how we keep your ego in your own. I'm gonna clip that Adam. Oh no, listen, a couple things. So, number one, you know, my last rock bottom was a culmination of several rock bottoms over the years. I mean, you know, a lot of things that happened to me from the age of 18 to 38, they would have been a lot of people's rock bottoms, right? Like I declared bankruptcy. You know, I I had to I had to borrow money from my parents because a loan shark was going to possibly harm. Me. You know, I I have a, you know, I lied, I cheated, I stole, I committed illegal acts to fund my gambling. Like I I got I got stow I got stories in rock bottoms that'll make your toes curl, right? But this last one, for whatever reason, like it was a culmination. And then I have a hot take, and I kind of want to get your opinion on this. And what I was saying earlier to the to the Evive Live audience, like this is what I do with Christina, and this is how I evolve is I I I I'll just you know randomly call her and I'll bug her and I'll just be like, all right, so here's what I think about this, like blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she'll be like, all right, here's why that's not exactly right. And then and then I learn. And then I I try to, I try to, you know, I try to uh apply it. But so here's my hot take. I don't think I've worked that hard. I think it's more I have completely surrendered and I'm still working. I I you know, I I've I went to meetings, I had a lot of hard conversations, I worked hard financially, I worked hard saving money, I worked hard working, I I I worked many hours. I've had a job my whole life, pretty much. But for me, it hasn't felt so much like I've put in the work as much as I have 1,000 billion million surrendered to this addiction. What do you think of that? I mean, yes, but I think I think it gets to the point where it doesn't feel like work. It starts to feel like just natural growth evolution, right? Like we're growing in so many ways, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, all these different ways, right? When you start doing the work, there are going to be periods that feel harder than others. And it really just depends on where the work really needed to be done, right? We all have different stories. Like you've told me uh through your own story, you're like, I had a great childhood. I had parents that were super supportive, right? But a lot of people have childhood harm or um maybe other traumas or things like that. So how we end up at the doors of recovery really is gonna determine how much work we have to do. And I think for me, the work I had like the work I really had to do was learn to have hard conversations. But if you're used to having hard conversations or have never shied away from hard conversations, then that's not gonna be hard work for you. It's gonna be normal work. But for me, I don't like confrontation. I am such a people pleaser. Um, I know you don't know this about me, Adam, because I'm so mean to you, but I genuinely don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Um Listen, she she puts on this act like she doesn't love me. She loves me and I love her. Like she is my slightly older sister, barely older sister. Slightly older. Wow. Wow. Barely we'll see how the rest of this episode goes, but but still, seriously, like slight, slightly older. Younger, you mean? Uh anyway, you look younger than that. Um what else what else you got on that list? But anyway, it becomes like, yeah, it becomes on how how much like where we need the work done, right? I had to learn to find better ways to cope. I had to learn to ask for help. I had to learn to have hard conversations and let feelings get hurt and say no instead of yes. And and so it was really hard work for me. But somebody else may come into recovery and they they may have always been okay with hard conversations and maybe always been okay with boundaries, but maybe aren't so good with other things like navigating relationships or navigating work-life balance or whatever it is, or have trauma. And so the work can definitely look different, but at some point, the work gets easier because as you as you're doing the work, you're laying the foundation. So it makes like the challenges. I actually got to a point where I craved the next challenge because I I had built myself up so much with being able to have hard conversations, be able to stand up for myself and be able to. There's been a few times recently in the last few months that I've stood up for myself and I was scared because like that's never gone well for me. And both times I advocated for myself. I felt very strongly of why I was advocating for myself. And I was met with people that were right there with me who agreed and had those kind of a little bit more challenging conversations, and I felt supported and and those types of things. So it it it it really does change. And and the hardest part is definitely asking for help and leaning into that support. So let's let's kind of talk about what that support can look like. So support again, I'm gonna say this probably 500 times is not one size fits all. Like you'll have people out there like if you do this, this, and this, you're gonna be great. And it's like maybe I mean it's a good, it's a good place to start. It's a good place to start to try what other people have tried through their own experiences and see if it works for you. Um, but it can look like peer support. It, you know, a lot of states offer one-on-one peer support um or peer support within the vibe community, or like not, I guess I need to be really careful how you say that, but peer can mean peers in the community, but it can also mean peer as far as somebody who's certified to actually help you. So it can mean a bunch of different things. So um, but therapy, meetings, a trusted friend, family, you know, your parents. My mom was a huge support for me. My twin sister, your parents were a huge support for you. Um, online groups, we've evive has an amazing community. Um, you know, the Bro Girl Society for women, but there's so many groups on Facebook that you can be part of or different apps and things like that. So it really is just, you know, getting, and it can look like financial accountability too, having somebody help you better understand your finances, those types of things, crisis resources, whatever. It can it can be practical, it can be like self-exclusion, it can be blocking access to to sites or putting parameters in play if you're somebody that's trying to manage your gambling, right? Putting those parameters in play, um, and making sure that you're sticking within those those support resources, budgeting help. Um and everything that you just mentioned, and this is where, you know, we're gonna play a little good cop, bad cop, or you know, everything that you just mentioned, right? It requires one thing. It requires that person to go get it, to go find it, to go trial and error, right? Like, and you know, you don't have to walk into every room on your own, right? You can you can seek out a counselor who may hook you up with an online group, and then you can go to an in-person meeting with someone in there, right? There's a there's a a sea of people in recovery across the globe that are just that they're our hearts flutter every time we see a new person walk through a room, whether it's in person or whether it's via Zoom. But it's up to you to take that first step, right? It's it's it's but once you take that first step, you you got people that are gonna walk along that whole journey with you, right? It's it's a lot of it is what you put in is what you're gonna get, right? And and I say this all the time, and every podcast I've ever been on, probably is that just think of the amount of effort that we put into our gambling and the hoops that we jumped through and the lengths that we went to gamble. You got to try to use as much of that same amount of effort into into recovery, into, into helping yourself, into into getting better, right? Um, so I got a question for you is um because you know, I'm sure there's some people listening, like they're intrigued, but like, how do I do it, right? Like how where are these meetings? Like you say Zoom, but like, do I have to download the app? Do I gotta do this? And broke girl, like, what's this? I'm on the Facebook group, but how do I get into the group? So let's just say that I'm a woman and I'm looking to log on to a Broke Girl Society meeting. Take me through from A to Z. How does someone do that? So, what it looks like to do a BGS meeting is one, you you really need to be part of our Facebook group because we that's where we post our meeting links. That's where we post the topic of the meeting and just all the meeting reminders. We have meetings, we've got some new ones starting, but we have meetings um currently Tuesday, Thursday, Wednesday. I went out of order, Friday, and we're fixing to start a Sunday evening meeting and um meditation meeting, but I don't know, I don't have the exact dates on this. But anyway, yeah, yeah. You come into the BGS and you can click the link when it's ready and it'll take you right into the meeting. And you can just listen in a meeting. You can I always encourage active engagement because to me, when you're in a meeting and you're engaging, that's how you're gonna connect with the other women in the group. And that's you know, that's it's it's actively participating in your own recovery. But I get for the first time, you just want to listen, maybe the first couple of times. I don't know. You you'll get to to the point where you'll feel better. Um, but oftentimes it starts with just an open share, somebody doing a check-in. And then I like topic meetings. I like to have a topic when we come to the meeting so that we can kind of focus on that. Um, and then how that maybe relates to how you're navigating recovery in this moment. And so we have a bigger conversation about that. You can chime in or not chime in. But what I have found in meetings is that even if they're topic-based or just, you know, open check-in type meetings, I've never left a meeting wishing I hadn't gone to a meeting. Right. And I've been ever. Yeah. Even on meetings, and and this is why we say, you know, try different meetings because even if you go into a meeting, and I know there's somebody listening now, or like meetings are not for me. Gamblers Anonymous was not for me. And that's okay. Like you get to decide that. But if you're only if you've never been to a meeting and you're saying that, I really encourage you to be curious and and at least try a couple of different meetings so that you have the data points to go off of. Um, if you went to a GA meeting and you didn't like it for whatever reason, try a different GA meeting, a different night, um, or just try an online meeting or something. Just keep being curious about all the different options that are out there instead of just being, and that's the mindset change, right? Of like, nope. Yeah. Instead of saying nope, say, maybe, maybe I need to look at this, or maybe I need to try this. Um, I just I'm always going to encourage like my sponsees or or people that I'm working with, you know, be really curious about what could be helpful. It may not be exactly what somebody's telling you to do, um, which I find that's the fun part, you know what I mean, where you get to explore and figure that out for yourself. Yeah. And before I tell people about um the modern meeting meeting and the other eVive uh community meetings, quick story based on what you just said. So this is a true story, this is about me, this happened recently. Okay, so for the first like three and a half years of my recovery, I went to one meeting a week in person in Rhode Island, and it was good. It was great. I feel like I learned a lot. And then around the three and a half year mark, I started really diving into the podcast and and meeting you, and then my network got bigger, and then I started going to conferences and I started meeting other people, and I started, and I I feel like I I don't want to say I grew out of that meeting, but I had this, once again, I always talk about having my finger on the pulse of my recovery. I had this feeling that I wanted more, that I wanted to continue to learn and look at other perspectives. And so I started, you know, dabbling in other meetings. I started um, you know, I started the modern meeting meeting, and and and then I met Sal. So for those of you who don't know Sal, he is uh he works for EVIV, he's one of our community uh engagement specialists, he's amazing. And Sal told me about this GA online meeting that he hosts on Thursday nights. And I like Sal. I trust Sal. I, you know, you hear all the time when you go into these rooms, look for someone in the room that, you know, you you get a good vibe from and you think that they have some good recovery. And then those are the people that you want to pick their brains. Like, I want what that person has, right? And Sal's that person for me. And so I went to his meeting and I hated it. I didn't like the tone. I didn't like now, it was my first GA meeting in probably three or four months, but I was taking notes. Why are they talking too much God talk, too much this, too much that? And and I told him, I said, you know, I don't know, man. Like, I just I don't know if it was for me. Fast forward like two months. It's the highlight of my week. And I went to the second meeting because I trusted Sal. And Sal told me, listen, it might have been an off night, maybe just give it one more try. And I said, Of course, I trust you, Sal. And now it's the highlight of my week, and I love it. And I cannot believe that I would think some of the people that like rub me the wrong way that first week are the people that I look to up, I look up to in that meeting the most. So I think that's just a good example of you know any meeting can be off on any given night. And so if you go into something and you don't like it, you can't just you know, you you gotta give it another shot. Now, obviously, there's extreme situations if if if people crossed the line and it was it was bad or you know, but I I just think that's a good example of I trusted Sal and I gave it another shot, and now it's the highlight of my week. Um, but so speaking of these meetings, you know, when people ask me all the time, like, what's the difference between the modern meeting meeting or or Sal's meeting on Wednesday nights or Sam's meeting on Thursday afternoons compared to GA. And I tell him, I say, we just we don't read literature, right? Um, we don't, we don't push the 12 steps, we don't push the higher power talk. And it's it's basically like you said, we have a topic usually. But if someone wants to share about anything they want, they can. They want to share about how the weather was today, they want to share about what had what they had for dinner. You can talk about whatever you want. Um, and you know, obviously, 99% of people that share, it's about recovery or their struggles or they're sharing their experience, strength, and hope with others. But, you know, like the BGS, there's no pressure to share, there's no pressure to be on camera. Um, all of the links are within eVive. And, you know, I'm not gonna say that, you know, the structure of it isn't based on GA as far as you know, someone speaks and then you raise your hand and then and we introduce ourselves at the beginning. And but um I I like to say that it's like for me, it feels like um like GA on training wheels a little bit, where it's like there's like a foundation, but we're not pushing any outside principles, we're not pushing any literature. We just want you to be able to get whatever you're carrying around off your chest that day and that week, right? And then you get to sit back and you get to listen to a bunch of other people share their experience, strength, and hope. And then, like you said, you leave the meeting feeling better, and then you want to come back next week. And and what we've seen in the evive community meetings in the last, I'd say, three months, it's amazing. Like we're building, forget about a community, we're building a family. Like we're, you know what I mean? Like it's it you're seeing the same faces every week now. And you know, you're still seeing the four or five new faces, but that core is getting bigger and bigger. And all of a sudden, the person who is celebrating 20 days, now they're up to 90 days, now they're up to 110 days, and you just look at that sea of zoom faces. And when someone says, Hi, I'm so-and-so, uh, my last bet was blah, blah, blah. Today is 110 days, every gosh, I'm not gonna swear on eVive live, every gosh darn face in those zoom boxes lights up and and and the hearts start going and the and the celebration emojis start going. I mean, it's just a beautiful thing. So it's like if you're on the fence and you're not sure if you want to get into a meeting, these whether it's a broker society or modern meeting meeting or the evive community meetings, like I promise you, like it's it's a great place to start. And it couldn't be a more comfortable, safe space. Couldn't agree more. And I think I think, you know, you definitely uh made a lot of good points. Of like, I've been hosting meetings pretty much most of my recovery, like definitely, you know, at least the last four or four and a half years. And some nights I I'm just off. I'm tired, I've had a stressful day, and so like the conversation maybe like, and sometimes you can be in a meeting and everybody's quiet, and that's not fun, you know, because not that meetings are generally fun, but they're they're supportive, right? Sure. And you can be in a meeting and I can be, and I some meetings it feels like I'm just talking at the people in the room, or sometimes I'll ask them a question and nobody answers, and I'm just like, yeah, I can make this as awkward and you know, as as everybody else. But but then but most of the time, meetings something happens, somebody says something, and it just sparks the conversation, it sparks the connection. So, you know, that's why I say you've got to give it a few times for meetings. But if at the end of it you're like, meetings aren't for me, that's okay. Right. Some people don't don't just don't connect in meetings. Um, but I I encourage connection in other ways, right? Listening to podcasts, listening to people's stories, um, that's not just promoting the work that we're doing. There is connection in that to to hear and connect on somebody else's experience, right? It's powerful connection to have family support, to have some type of treatment support. There's so many ways that you can you can do support. And let's kind of break down what that could look like healthy support versus unhealthy support just quickly as we're kind of winding down this episode. Love that. Because not all support is going to be healthy or safe. And we kind of touched on this a little earlier, right? About making sure that you share with people who are safe, because if you share with the wrong person, that that harm can really impact your next steps, right? So healthy support really does to reiterate, looks like boundaries, honesty, compassion, accountability, learning to say no, um, and and having people respond to those things. They're not easy when if you've never been somebody who's held a solid boundary and you start to hold boundaries, people aren't used to it. And that's not easy work, right? Yeah. Um, but that's what healthy support looks like. It looks like, you know, keeping you safe. Um, it shouldn't be support shouldn't look like control. It shouldn't look like somebody telling you what to do, when to do it, how to do it. Right. You should do this. Like that's that's not healthy support, right? Um, shame should never be a recovery tool from anybody. Um, you know, punishment, like, oh, you're being punished because maybe you had a setback or a slip. And and, you know, sometimes losing your day count can feel like a punishment a little bit in some programs, right? And we're not gonna dig into that too much right now, but that's what it can feel like. And so it's kind of, you know, reworking what that really looks like for you. And I and I think too, like to echo what uh Dr. Haskins shout out to Debbie, what she said on a previous evive live episode, you know, unhealthy support, it can also be if you're working with someone one-on-one and they make you feel any type of like, you know, uncomfortable or ashamed, or or if you know, if you just have a gut feeling that like what they're giving you as far as advice, it's not resonating with maybe like what someone in the meeting has said, or what, or what just something you know, right? Like I I experienced that in 2016. I went to an addiction specialist. I went to a uh uh I went to a therapist who specialized in addiction. And looking back on it, he gave me the worst advice ever. Like I basically told him my whole story, and his answer was, well, maybe if you just stop for a little while and then just like bet in moderation. Like he said, like, and and guess what? I took that advice and I ran with it. And I use that as a weapon, right? Like when I when when when when someone close to me, you know, would be like, wait, why are you going gambling? I thought you were going to therapy for it. Listen, the guy told me just do it in moderation. That's what I'm doing. I I'm only bringing a hundred bucks this time, right? So, so it's again, that's why it's so important to go for a gambling addiction therapist, somebody who is trained in gambling harm, because I hear so many stories where somebody's been to a therapist and they were like compared their gambling to their grandmother's gambling or bingo holidays, or like, or maybe they're uh somebody who likes to gamble in but they're not trained in the harm side of it or they're not experiencing harm. I had a a well-known clinician come up to me and basically said, Well, I can gamble normally. And I'm like, Well, good for you. Right. You know, it just made me feel this big, you know, because she was kind of saying, Well, I'm normal at it, which we know most people are, but but yeah, I think I think you know, making sure that support. Aligns with your goals. Like some conversations are gonna feel hard and maybe you're not gonna connect with them, but sometimes there's growth and things that need to be involved to understand. But um and I think just just knowing too the difference between recovery, like recovery groups, you know, like GA or Smart Recovery or Recovery Dharma, there's so many different pathways out there. And just knowing that those people are not treatment, right? They're they're connection, they're community, but they're not treatment. And so if you need higher level care to make sure that you seek out the right professionals to to treat you for whatever's going on, I I always like to just really clear that up that being in a peer space or you know, it's not a replacement for treatment. Yeah, and you know, a couple things. It's like, you know, you just mentioned goals and you kind of just like you threw that in there real quick, but like it, it it just hit me because it's like my recovery has always been like results driven and goals driven. And, you know, like early on when I said that I never want to gamble again and I'm gonna live life a day at a time, but like if I was, if let's say I did slip, I like to think that I would have then sought out something else, something more. Okay, Tuesday night isn't enough. So maybe I need a second meeting, or maybe I do need to go talk to a clinician, a gambling specialist, right? So I think that's where a lot of people, you know, they they may have not the best strategy at the beginning where they say, Well, listen, I'm doing everything I can. And it's like, okay, well, let's talk about what are you doing? Well, I go to this meeting and uh and then I do this. I'm like, all right, do you think you could add something else to that, maybe? Because if if you're if you're frustrated right now that you're you say you're doing everything, but you're still gambling, like, right? So it's like, uh I think setting goals is so important. And if you're hitting those goals, great, keep doing what you're doing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you're setting these small, these small short-term goals and you're having trouble getting to them, it means that not necessarily you need to do more or put in more effort. Like you said, maybe it's just not the right combination. Maybe you need to lean more into a one-on-one. Maybe you really do need to find that sponsor in GA. Maybe you need to work the steps. Maybe you need to really dive into the app more, right? Like, so it's, you know, it's uh There's so many. We we can do a whole nother episode on goals because sometimes too, you can be setting goals that are just not, you're not ready to meet those goals, right? So it really becomes breaking down goals into attainable steps, right? And oftentimes it's like with New Year's resolutions, we set all these big New Year's resolutions, and by March, in most cases, mid-January, uh, for me, I have not met any of those thoughts or goals. And so then it becomes deflating, and then the shame pattern starts happening of look, I can't even do this, right? So this is a bigger conversation we should should have an episode on. Yes, but one other thing too when you're making these goals, right? You might be making unattainable goals and you don't even realize it. That's why it's so important that you should have a small or big list on your phone of people that have been in recovery, that have what you want, that you can bounce ideas off of. That's all I did for the first year is I had five or six people on that Tuesday night meeting that would get text messages from me all the time. Hey, what do you think of this? Hey, is this the best idea? Hey, should I do that? Right. Because like that's that's part of the surrender. And that's part of like, in order to build up your recovery muscles and to build your way back up to success, you gotta break yourself down to the bottom. And you gotta, and, and you gotta really, and I once again, I don't want to say you gotta, this is what I did, but I I picked out four or five people and I kind of vetted them a little bit, honestly. And I realized that, like, yep, no, these are amazing people. They have amazing recovery. I'm gonna pick their brains until forever. I mean, I still pick these people's brains. Now you're one of them, the people's brains that I pick. You know what I mean? Yeah. But uh, yeah, it's uh it's kind of a bookend to how we started this is that you can't do it alone and and and you wanna you don't be afraid to ask questions. Like all the time when I get people DMing me or emailing me and they're saying, so sorry to bother you, I'm like, this is what I do, this is what I want to do. I want to help you. Ask me questions all day. I'll answer questions all day, right? Yeah. And I think for me, as we're kind of tying this down, right? We're we're closing out this episode. I think for me, really understanding what support is, and for me, it wasn't, you know, support wasn't having somebody fix my life. It was having somebody with me, with maybe some different knowledge, with different words of encouragement, with inspiration that was walking with me while I was trying my hardest to stop destroying it. And, you know, and I think for me that that that sums up what support really means to me. Like I, again, had to do all the work to get me to where I am today. Yeah. And but having support and this a vast majority of friends and call now, especially now colleagues, you know, who all really understand the work that we're doing. And you know, having that has been just one of the most beautiful things that I got to do. One thing one closing thought I have, and this was actually the topic for last week's Modern Meeting Meeting. The topic was perseverance and fighting back. And, you know, the log line of that topic was just keep going because you never know what meeting is gonna click or what share is gonna rewire your brain. Or we never know, right? We don't know. Maybe it's someone that we meet, maybe it's a meeting, maybe it's a we don't know. But if you keep on that path, eventually things are gonna start happening, things are gonna start getting rewired, things are gonna start clicking, and and just keep going because you just you never know what's gonna hit different on what day. And uh, yeah, just persevere, just persevere. Love it, love it. So, as we're ending this episode, Adam, what is one thing that you hope for our listeners? Yeah, no, I I just hope that uh, you know, think about what you want, start small, and if you don't have that, keep fighting and figuring out how to get it. And once you get that, come up with a new goal and then just keep going day at a time, and the and like it says in certain literature, if we keep doing these things, the days become weeks, the weeks become months, and and you'll have sustained recovery. I love it. I love it. And I I think my hope is that you do find your people, you do find the groups that you feel supported in, that you do find a path forward that that works for you and that you know support you. So yeah, love that. Well, this was fun. Yep. We don't need guests, we could just do this every week. Kidding, kidding. We love our guests. We do, but sometimes sometimes schedule conflicts pop up and it's just you and me. Hey, it's all good. All right, thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks. Bye bye.