Sal Guarino | Community Engagement Manager, Evive

Most recovery conversations focus on stopping. Sal Guarino is more interested in what comes next. In this episode of Evive Live!, Adam and Christina sit down with Sal Guarino — co-founder of The Recovery Partners, Community Engagement Manager at Evive, life coach, writer, and someone who has been in and around GA since he was 18 years old. Sal grew up in Brooklyn in a family where poker and sports betting were social rituals, watched his father's gambling cross a line he couldn't fully name until years later, and spent decades navigating his own path in and out of recovery before finding something that actually stuck.

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to another episode of EVI Live. My name is Adam Lyons of the Modern Meeting Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook from the Brokeral Society. Hello, Christina. I'm back.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

I'm glad you're back. Like Sam's great, but you know, you're my buddy in this. So you know, he'll step in occasionally, but yeah, absolutely. It's you and me doing this.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Mm-hmm. Thank you. Thank you for filling in, Sam. Um that was actually a great episode with uh with Mike. Shout out to Mike Chandra. That was awesome. Um, but today, today we got we got a uh we got Sal. Sal Guarino. He's the founder of the Recovery Partners, but more importantly, he is uh he's our notes.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

He's our community, he's our community engagement manager in eVive.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

And yeah, I was gonna say like colleague or coworker, but like he's just our he's our he's our he's our teammate, he's on the team.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

He is, he is, and he's a person with lived experience using that lived experience to help others, especially in our community. Um, he posts every day 365 days of gratitude or gratitude 365, I think is what it's called. And it's always like really nice to to read his posts and and I like his philosophy on recovery. It's not, it might seem like we're digging on different recovery things, but we're not. We're just saying these are kind of what we took from it, right? And and how we've expanded on it. And, you know, and I think you can tell that he loves, you know, his program. And um so, but it I I love when conversations expand beyond that. And that's exactly what this conversation did.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

So yeah, like right now in uh June of 2026, I have two people that I lean on for life recovery. You're one of them, and the other one is Sal, 100%. Like I Sal and I talk every day. I don't think he cares that I say this, but like uh I'm going, I'm officially doing the 12 steps with Sal.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

So I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yeah, really, really excited for that. We're on uh we're we're we're about to start step three. Um, but we're gonna be doing a lot of writing and stuff for step one and two. But uh, you know, I'm just really excited. Sal is just, he's one of these guys where, you know, you're gonna hear in the in the episode in a second, but like, you know, went to GA at 18. He's 58, yet he says his last bet was eight years ago. So, you know, there's there's 40 years of, you know, he likes to say uh a few U-turns, a few detours, but I mean, just not to put him on a pedestal, because I was I was told early on in GA in my recovery to not put people on pedestals, but like this guy's on a pedestal for me. He's just he is the most empathetic, and uh you you'll never hear him say a bad word about anybody. He always has a positive spin on everything. I mean, just he's just he's just a great guy. He's a he's a great guy to have, not only in recovery, but just as a friend. And uh, you know, I think this came through in the episode for sure.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Yeah, and I I especially love that the philosophy, like it's very similar to mine of build your life, you know, rebuild your life with the tools of recovery, and you're building a life that's gonna help you navigate things a lot easier. You're gonna build a life that you don't want to escape from. And, you know, just having that bigger philosophy of like recovery is so important. You know, recovery is tool building, life building, skill building, right? And the whole point of recovery is to use those tools and skills to navigate. And that's that's the true work of recovery, at least for me. Um, and I feel like his philosophy is very similar. And so I just love kind of having those broader conversations. So I hope you guys enjoy this conversation as much as we did.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah, here we go. Here is our conversation with Sal Guarino. All right, welcome to another episode of EVive Live. My name is Adam Lyons. I'm here with Christina Cook, and our guest today, Christina, is a team member of Team EV. He is the founder of the Recovery Partners. He is an author, he is someone with lived experience. He's also the community engagement manager at eVive. Very happy to have him. Long time coming. Salvatore, Sal Guarino. Sal, welcome to eVive Live. Thanks to you both. Great to be here. Awesome, awesome. Yeah, no, I'm excited. So uh, you know, I um it feels good to be back in the seat, Christina. You and Sam did a great job last week, but you know, I'm glad to be back. Hopefully, you know, I was I didn't know if I was gonna get let into the studio. I didn't know if you guys changed the password on me, but I'm I'm here. I like it. Shout out to Sam. Thank you, Sam. Um, but yeah, we're I'm excited. We're gonna dive in. We're gonna talk a little bit about your story, but today is mostly about we're just gonna talk recovery. We're gonna talk, you know, just the whole landscape and just, you know, your work inside the community within eVive. Uh I want to hear about your book. You know, we got a lot to cover, but uh yeah, let's uh let's dive in.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah, I'm so happy to have you on. I, you know, have got to work with you a little bit in eVive, but I really don't I don't think we've really shared much of your story. Um, so I'm you know, I'm always happy to hear, and I feel like it's gonna be very, very interesting. Um, because I know the work you do on the recovery side, and it's fantastic. I read your posts every day in the community, like you're very uplifting. And so I'm really excited to kind of delve into what got you here. Um, so I guess just kind of start with maybe how gambling has impacted your life and you know, is it something you experienced as a child and kind of continued on that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, sure. Thanks. Well, I appreciate the uh the kind intro, and it's been great to be working with you guys just for a few months already. But um, yeah, so I think I I probably fit in some of the stereotypical categories as far as being, you know, of uh Italian descent, grew up in Brooklyn. Um actually, my my father was the first to be born here. All of his older siblings were born in Italy. So I grew up in one of those houses in Brooklyn that that you know could be out of one of the movies, like grandparents in the basement, aunt and uncle on the middle floor, seven of us, I'm the youngest, upstairs, and a dog, one bathroom, which we didn't even think of that one bathroom. That's just what you had. So, and within, I would say, three or four block radius, five other families. So it's about as much of an old school upbringing for my age. I mean, I'm 58, I'm not young, young, but still for that time zone, it was still very traditional. And um, you know, poker, sports betting, completely normal. Um, and I would say most of the relatives and most of our friends, it was a social activity. It wasn't really an addiction. Um, you know, parties, um, gatherings, they would have a family poker game. I was probably seven when I was throwing in the chips for my dad. And, you know, it was like a big rite of passage. And and you had to do it right. Like when he made the call, you throw in the chip. If you did it too early, everybody give you a dirty look. Um, and then as I got a little better at it, every once in a while, he would purposely get up to go to the bathroom right before the hand started. So I would have to play the beginning of the hand. And that, if we want to talk in today's terminology of dopamine rush, that was probably the first huge one. Like, can't even explain it actually. So, you know, I was different. He was different. He he was um he had a gambling addiction, although when I look back at it the best I can, because um it's hard to know his earlier history. I think it was it crossed over a line at some point after many years, because um, you know, from what I know, because I say that because when I was born, you know, he was already close to 40 and he died at 58. So I don't know much about the earlier years, but I think it crossed over at a certain point and became addictive. Um but for me, I describe it simply as three lemons in the slot machine. The biology was there, the psychological conditions eventually, not not anything horrible, but just enough issues to to make that escape of gambling even more attractive. And the social, I mean, it was there, it was normal. I remember the first time I got in trouble with a bookmaker, I was 15, um, and I told my parents I had to, and you know, my father gave me a speech about how to manage money, and everything he said was right, but he was also gambling addictively. So it was that that kind of situation. Um so it was really easy. I mean, I was addicted to to monopoly, um, you know, seven, eight, nine years old, cards, poker, sports betting. I understood at 10, 11 years old. I used to, my brother, who was who was a lot older, would let me, you know, bet with him. So I would write down the games 50 cents each, and then I would have to spend 55 with the VIG. So I understood all that. But I would have to submit to him all the games like before Sunday morning, because all the games were on Sunday, then football. And if he wasn't around during the day and I I left the submission sheet, but they weren't going to well, I would just cheat and go change it all and then submit it, which really is funny, but very sad. And that's there you go. So age 10, age 11, 15, problem, 17, got my ass kicked literally because of gambling, and 18 was at my first GA meeting.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah. Now, you mentioned crossing the line. Uh, kind of a two-part question is looking back, were you able to identify some specific things that happened when your dad crossed that line? And also when you crossed that line, because I think, you know, some people that are listening, they might hear that phrase all the time, but it's like, what does that really mean, right? Is that always financial? Is it is it the time? So talk a little bit more about like what crossing the line meant for you and your dad.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, for my dad, I think it's more retrospective that I kind of figured it out because when I looked at his his career path um and his he was the first college educated person in the family, eight years at night, Baruch College in in New York, while he had three kids doing that at night, working full time. So not that you can't do that when you're a derelict gambler, but it wouldn't have been very likely. And he raised a family. So um, but you know, I just remember sticking with him for a second, the emotional detachment, um, the emotional um, you know, you could just read the room. When I would come home, say at 13, 14 years old, I go out for a few hours on a Saturday night. When I would come home and open the door, we were in Staten Island then, as a lot of Italians moved over from Brooklyn because there was more room and more green grass. And um, I could open the door and I could tell you probably 90% accurately if the Yankees won or not, because that's all he bet on, which of course makes no sense at all. And I could tell from what lights were on, how quiet it was, whether he was up in his room or downstairs and all that. So that kind of, and and and this is, as you guys know, can be applied to any addiction or any real dysfunction in the house where you become the emotional, you know, you can read all the tea leaves. And as the youngest, I think youngest are very good at that for a lot of reasons. So, so that is what crossed the line. And I don't know with because there was kind of two tiers of kids. I had three older siblings, and then my next oldest brother and me were like the second split level. So I don't know how it was, but I think it was pretty different with with the first set of kids to a degree. Um, as far as myself, it it's funny, there really was, I just crossed as soon as I started. It was like, and uh, you know what's interesting? The first time I got in trouble and had to get a bailout from my parents, I was walking to school that morning, and I actually thought to myself, because when I sat down with them and I said, This is what happened, and they helped me out, my father tried to kind of teach me something. He's like, We're gonna give him half, we'll give him half next week, you know, try to set some boundaries. And I'm walking to school, and 10 minutes before that, I had no desire to gamble ever again because I was really in trouble. And as I'm walking to school, I'm like, even to myself, I'm like, oh shit, I want to gamble again. And I actually had that awareness and that analysis of myself at 15, walking down to the train. And I just think that's interesting because that that tells you like there was no graduate gradual transition. Um and then I had um had a lot of substance abuse as a teenager, cocaine mainly. Well, that was the addiction, which landed me in a rehab at age 18, Minnesota, classic Minnesota model. And it was a problem. I I haven't used it since. One more time, actually, five months later, over a gambling relapse, which really puts the story in focus, right? So I don't usually get into amounts, but I will because it was it was $5,000. I was 18, and I just had a job on Wall Street making 10. You know, so I had to pay off basically all my check for the next year. And I had gone to my first GA meeting because I had been attending some 12 steps in AA because of the at the time, you know, the disease concept and how they presented it to me. I'm like, okay, I'll I'll refrain from everything for now because I didn't want to ever get high again. And uh somebody brought me, and I'll just talk a minute about that because I think it's really interesting, informs a lot of my perspective as someone who loves GA and really believes in the fundamentals of it, the kernel of it, and a lot of the rituals of it, but also has been periodically attending it since I was a kid. So when some old timers today, when I have things to say about it, that maybe you're critical and they're like, what are you trying to rewrite the steps? And I'm like, well, maybe not now, but uh, but but not really, but I'm just playing a little bit. But but the point is, well, I've seen it for 40 years, so maybe I do have something to say as somebody who's who's gone for a while. And in that first meeting, what I thought was great, which doesn't always happen today, is you know, it was a three-hour meeting, which is common, a little more common on the East Coast. It was in Staten Island. And I we got there a little early, they introduced me to the chairperson, they said, you know, just sit down, relax, listen. Didn't tell me anything else, didn't tell me little a little while later, um, we're gonna show you this book and we're gonna do the 20 questions because we've all done it. Don't worry, they didn't band-aid me as soon as I got there, they didn't distract distract me from focusing on the meeting by telling me what was gonna happen. They kept it a surprise. And I think going back and forth with that meeting and today's approach, the problem with that today is you're losing the opportunity to have that one, I call it sacred moment where somebody might actually own what's going on because we're trying to soften it. We're trying to say, don't worry, we've all done it. In a little while, we're gonna ask you questions. In fact, in some meetings, and this is common in California, in some, because I went to a lot of uh Southern California GA, which is great, by the way, but they'll go around. They'll say, Okay, Adam, you answer question one, you ask John, who's next to you, and then we'll go around. And it just becomes distracting. Sometimes there's a joke here and there, and then the person doesn't even know how many they answered. So back to 1986, right before the break, about 80 minutes in, they say, okay, we'll now turn our attention to the newcomer, Sal. We're gonna read these questions, open the book, answer yes or no. That's it. I answer yes or no. I answer yes to 18. Then they say, okay, Sal, um, blah, blah, blah. Most answers seven. Are you a compulsive gambler? I said, yes. And I'm gonna tell you right now, even though I was chock full of denial in other ways, because we all know it's not that black and white, I never doubted again in my heart of hearts what I admitted right there. Now I had had some 12-step background, and but the way they did it had a lot to do with it. It it I had no idea what was coming, and I think that sometimes in some of the softer circles today is viewed as cruel that, oh, we're shocking this person. And I I really feel like that that before and after frames a lot of how things were done then versus now. At the same time, everyone was smoking in that room, right? And you know, there was a different kind of approach to a person that maybe wasn't so good. It was it was harsh, to be honest. Um, wasn't even just tough. So, anyway, I I um I didn't gamble for a while, and I did the thing that I've witnessed now, probably thousands of times since maybe not thousands, but hundreds, where in my mind I was like, trying to reconcile. Like, here's these guys who are old, and I mean old, like older than me now, not just because I was a kid, and they're talking about owing a lifelong amount to Chase Bank for embezzlement, and they'll never be above water, but they still want a normal way of thinking and living. And I'm like, how does that even happen? So I was trying to reconcile all those kind of GA phenomena, but you know, I went from okay, I can I can see the value of this. This is great, and and this is a cool meeting, and I think I might come once a week. And then the meeting goes on for a while, and I'm like, but you know, really need to go. I mean, at least I know where it is, plus I'm going to some AA anyway, and plus, I mean, these guys really got in a lot of trouble, you know. And then as I'm leaving, I'm like, well, anyway, at least I know where it is. And in that, that that three-minute exit, I decided not to go back. But to shorten the rest of that, I am probably the classic definition of the periodic gambler. And by the way, I don't think it's any better, any worse. It just is what it is. Um I would not gamble for a while. A year, two, three, and then for whatever reason, different reasons, different times, that was my escape. It was like an affair that went on forever. And I would do serious damage when I gambled in in a lot of ways financially, but it was and then I go back to GA. I love G A, but I just was a little smarter than everybody. And um, it's funny because I get older and then I realize maybe I'm not as much. But um, you know. So I went back and forth, in and out, in and out for a while.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Um, and that kind of brings me to my next thought is you know, you're experiencing this in your youth, and it's and it from the way you're saying it is it was very normalized in your family, your community probably, very um and you're finding yourself pretty young navigating these things. But you become a counselor for alcohol at a very, very young age, one of the youngest, right? Um, at 22. And it's just interesting that you've lived so much life with you know, struggling with substance, gambling, alcohol. And by the time you're 22, you're already recognizing what can be done to help others. And and I'm just I'm really fascinated by that. Can you talk a little bit more about that piece of it?

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, it's an interesting story. I mean, it's one of those that I'm not a believer that everything happens for a reason. I think that's very convenient, but I do think some things do. I think maybe one day I'll find out they all do. I don't know. I'm open-minded. But when I look at that time of my life, it's hard not to think some things were orchestrated, let's say, because, you know, I was trying to figure out what to do. I didn't drink, I didn't drug, I didn't gamble for a good stretch of time. And I had some really good mentors that I kind of bounced into. One of them was an employee assistance program person at a company I worked for. The company was Brown Brothers Harriman on Wall Street. And when I took, they used to do serious polygraph for any job on Wall Street back then. And I was 90% honest. And, you know, I didn't I didn't admit to the recent relapse I had, but she's like, When's the last time you had a drink? I'm like, two years ago. What's the largest drug purchase you ever made? And I answer all these questions. So they call me up two days later and they're like, hey, um, you know, your polygraph came out true, but we'd like you to sit down with our employee assistance person before we hire you. And then I met this wily, crafty, uh, middle-aged woman who who was really cagey and had a lot of years in AA and was really sharp. And in about 30 seconds, she's like, Okay, you're good. She knew I was on a recovery path. And she became like a friend and eventually guided me up to a place in upstate New York that her ex-husband ran. It was called Veritas Villa. It's only recently closed a couple of years ago. It was a traditional one of the first rehabs ever. I think it opened in the 70s originally. And I started going up on weekends because she thought I might be good at it. And one thing led to the other, and I moved upstate and uh and and got into the field back then. So um, yeah, so it was a real early kind of exposure, but I I loved the history of AA, I loved the story, and I believe that the That it was divinely inspired. That's my belief.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Well, so I mean it it sounds so interesting though, but at 22 and finding yourself in recovery, like I don't know. For me, it takes a lot of life to really kind of understand the goals of recovery or the goals of building that life, right? And so I just, you know, when I I kind of read that as part of part of your story, I was just really fascinated by that and how that ended up being a path for you. So now kind of understanding that and finding a little bit of a calling, helping others, which you obviously continue to hold a place in your heart to do moving forward for the rest of your, for the rest of your um days up until today, right? Um what is what does that look like for you balancing recovery? Because you said you had, you know, spells or um reoccurrences of of different behaviors, you know, throughout. Like, how did you, I guess my question is, how did you balance your knowledge of of recovery with with those reoccurrences? Like, how are you you able to navigate those things?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

It's tough. You know, it's it's one of the themes that I'm starting to get more and more comfortable with as a helping professional, again, at this point in my life, is really trying to resist putting things in this linear box. For example, well, if if I were to introduce myself in a GA meeting the way many people do, they would say, I had two years, then I had four, then I had six, then I had nine. It's like, no, I've been around a while. Yes, I haven't made a bet in almost eight years. I do say that periodically. It's not it's not the most important thing. But to your question, it's like I always had the roots and I always had the beliefs. If you look at it for a second, like a religion, and I'm not comparing it to a religion, but just from the point of if you're a practicing member of a religion and you you stray or you make mistakes, you don't have to go and start from the beginning, right? You just kind of keep doing it better. So I think the journey was was pretty steady, even though I had detours in GA. Um, and then ultimately, by the way, in 2013, I got really, really serious about GA and put together four years, very dedicated in Orange County, had a periodic, um, had a relapse for a few months, then came back and have never looked back and have never really seriously thought about a bet since then. So um yeah, so I mean it's been interesting. And then circling back in now, I mean, I was doing um a lot of uh a lot of work in GA, you know, a lot of 12-stepping and and very dedicated, and I was helping a lot of people. And I started to observe that just speaking plainly, very few people had really gone through the steps, very few people, um even the ones who stayed abstinent, got to the fruits of steps 10, 11, 12, which, as we know, in as I affectionately call it the parent company in AA, they describe the promises happening after step nine, where we're talking about, hey, you know, and I'm paraphrasing, you know, you know, it's a new life, new happiness, new freedom, fear of financial insecurity will leave. No matter how far down you've gone, you'll be able to help people. I was sold on that as a kid. And I think Bill W, in this book, in the 12 and 12, which he wrote in 1953, after A had been around a while, I think he takes his Wall Street chops out and he does a good intellectual sell of that. So I started to observe very few people got there, and other people were wanting a lot of help from me because they saw I did. And I don't say that in an arrogant way, it's just truth. I was happy. I wasn't living my life constantly in reference to a date of the last time I gambled. In fact, when I came back after the last relapse in 18, I walked into a meeting on the beach at Dana Point and I said, I apologize to you all because for a few months I had gone to meetings and lied. I didn't want to confess. And I apologized to everybody directly. And I said, But I'm just gonna tell you, I'm not gonna carry an effing cross. And I didn't state my time for the next two years. And a few of my well-meaning friends were like, You really should. It's good for newcomers, it's good for your pride. And I'm like, Yeah, but no, because I know what I need by now. And you know, just to be clear, like the whole I know the intentions in GE are great and I love it. But if we're in a program which step 10 says continue to take personal inventory, and when we're wrong, promptly admit it, then the fellowship itself needs to look at itself in the mirror. It's only common sense. So I think sometimes the focus of the date and the time, it creates a false perception that that is the prize, even though people say, Oh, it's not about the time, it's a day to time. But is it really? So there's a commercial for fidelity, I think, investments, and they're trying to make fun of how the other investment advisors treat people. And they show two people in the lobby, one comes in first, then another. And when the advisor comes out to greet them, he sees this number above their head that they don't see of how much they they have. So he greets the one with the big number. That's what happens a lot in GA. It's true. Johnny S. has 47 years, and even though he smokes and could lose 60 pounds, and even though he's been divorced three times, God bless him, it's not a judgment. There's a difference, it's an assessment. Okay, I don't look down my nose at that, but I don't want that person held up as the pillar of recovery because it's 47 years and he'll tell you every time since he made a bet. Because it's not, you know, the primary purpose of GA is to help other compulsive gamblers who still suffer, but that's the primary purpose. But there's a whole bunch of other stuff about living a happy life and looking at seven defects of character and and trying to live. So I get, as you can tell, kind of emotional about it because or excited is a better word. Because I just think we need to talk more about what do you want to do in the future? What's exciting you? What about the joy of living? You know, that's all Bill W. talks about in step 12 and the 12 and 12. Most people don't know because they've never read it. He says, in effect, it may seem like this whole book is about troubleshooting and dilemmas. And he goes, to a certain extent, it is because we're problem people. He says, but the joy of good living is the theme of AA's 12 step. Aha.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Perfect segue into the open secret. Yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. I love everything you just said. And it's, you know, everyone who is in the evive community, they know that Sal is many things, but he is the gratitude guy, right? Um, you are you make a post every single day talking about your gratitude. So my question is, you know, a lot of your philosophy centers around recovery as a forward-looking process, just like you said, right? Gratitude, community growth, rather than a fixation of you know, what went wrong in the past. So how do you hold that frame with someone who is still in the thick of it and can't see forward quite yet? I mean, I want to keep asking stuff about your story, but there's just uh we gotta we gotta get into recovery because I think yeah, yeah, and thanks.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

And um two two quick points along that. So obviously I'm a 12-step, I'm a GA guy, but I want to just throw the caveat out there that I don't think it's the only way. I don't think that we should wave this around like it's a fundamentalist Bible and say you must use this, because what happened before 1957, there was no GA. So does that mean nobody ever got better? So I think there are a lot of ways to it. This is the one that works well for me. But to your question, two things. One is if I if I'm taking the 12-step approach, which I may or may not be, if it's an e-vibe, I won't out of the chute. But if I were, I would say, look, there's 12 steps. One of them talks exclusively about gambling, the other 11 don't. Of course, they incorporate gambling pieces, but what does that tell you? It's about moving forward. So I would say it's not just Sal's idea. All Sal's doing is interpreting something that's pretty plain that says, hey, by the way, even though you didn't want to come here, you're gonna have a life that's better than you could ever imagine. Okay, so I would explain that that's actually what's written. It's not my idea. I think it's been lost in translation. So I would explain that to people and I would say, okay, and I would work with them on where they're stuck, but I would also, day one, say, what's a dream you have? Even if it's not realistic. Okay, you'd like to be the GM of the Yankees. Great. Why would you like to do that? Let's talk about it. You know? Um, what's something that you used to do that you're not doing anymore? Um, you know, what makes you happy? So what step is that? So, so I would ask some simple questions. And the gratitude thing, which ties in, a few of my friends went to a conference back in 2013, a GA conference in Orlando, and they came back and they heard about this gratitude email chain. So we started one with four people, and then it became like 50 or 60 over the years, and I've I've been on it ever since. And I write on it every day. So when I came to evive and I was working with Sam, and he's like, you know what, we'll figure out what you're gonna do. He said, but for now, just get involved in the community. I'm like, great. So I'm like, all right, I'll do it 30 days of gratitude. And then as the 30 came, I'm like, oh, I should change it to a year. Then I'm like, you know what? I just change it to gratitude 365 and I put the day in. So I do think there's scientific evidence to back that up, and it's common sense. If I'm sitting there spiraling out, thinking about gambling and all of it's like pig pen and peanuts, all the dirt that swirls around it, right? I have to start acting my way to right thinking. Bill W. says that, by the way. So, so to your thing, Adam, it's like, what do you want to do? What are you looking forward to? And they're like, yeah, but I can't, I know, I know, I know. And you just have to get out of that financial jam. I know, I know. But but let's do a fantasy with me and what would life be like? Some people used to ask in rooms, hey, write down what you'd like to have in a year and put it away and open it up in a year. And if you stick with this, it's gonna be more than you can imagine. And and that's kind of the direction I would go. And I would also tell them about my life. This is what I've done in the last eight years. And it's not just not gamble. Of course, that's the big piece. But I met a woman online, I was married before and then divorced during COVID when everybody was staying inside. I traveled to Mexico back and forth. I got married, I moved to Mexico, I bought a house in the middle of Mexico. Everybody said, Oh, you can't buy a house if you're from you, like, you know, I just I live life. Um, so I've grown, and I would talk about that because that is really the manifestation of recovery. It's almost like it sounds arrogant, but it's beyond abstinence, beyond recovery. In the big book of AA, they talk about recovered, and I don't want to get into that discussion and play the word game, but there's a reason they look at it as moving to a through a portal to another place. And I think that's what I would talk to people a lot about. So they're not just playing defense. You know, it should be maybe intellectually enough that if you say, hey, if you do all these things, you won't gamble. But we're not wired that way as humans. It's like, yeah, but what, but what do I get? What do I look forward to? So that's that's what a lot of my thing is about. Yeah.

unknown 34:07

Love that.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

And I and and I think that's why I connected so much with you and the community and the way that you talk, because um, for me, I'm very much the same way. Like I have respect for all the different programs out there, GA, Smart Recovery, Recovery Dharma, all the different celebrate recovery. You know, whatever's gonna work for you, like I encourage you to be curious about it and try it. But for me, and I've said this all along, it's about building a life you don't want to escape from. And what does that look like, right? That looks like does that mean that you want a life that's easy? Well, yeah. I mean, I think we all want a life that's easy, but that's not life. Life is meant to give us challenges. That's how we grow, that's how we build all of those things. And so, you know, it's really is about, like I uh in my meeting the other day, the lady said, Hey, I can only do 20 minutes of this meeting. I'm gonna go out to dinner with my um husband. And I was like, that's recovery and action right there. Like you're trying to meet both the needs. Like you, you have to live life. You can't spend every night in a recovery meeting and life just continues to circle around you. You know, you're gonna need them for a period of time, lean into them, use them as you need them. But also remember that that recovery really is life, and life is living like you don't want to escape from it. And so, yeah, there's gonna be moments where we all want to scream and escape, you know. But how we navigate those moments and and the life we build around those moments, like that's that's the true work of recovery. And Adam's like, come on, Christina, like no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

You bring up you bring up such a great point because when I think of all the people that I've experienced over the last four years, four months, and five days, the ones that go to four to five meetings a week, not all of them, but a lot of them, that's all they have. Like you said, they don't have a life. Their life, they're not gambling, but their life is now meetings, right? So it's like you're 100% right. Like when you started that, I thought you were gonna say that she should have stayed because recovery takes priority. Like you leave after 20 minutes, but no, you're 100% right. Where it's like if you can start balancing and living a life without gambling, a life that you don't want to escape from, 100%. It's like finding that balance. No, finding that balance. It's like it's what we're all striving for this whole time, you know?

SPEAKER_03 36:26

And I want to be really clear that that, yeah, recovery should be a priority, especially in the early days. You have to kind of prioritize, you know, the meetings that you need, the therapy that you need, the support that you need, the community that you need. That's all really, really important. And if that takes you six months, nine months, a year to kind of feel like now you're on you're you've kind of got a foundation of recovery. You've really worked and practiced these tools. Now it's time to kind of rebuild the life around it. Like, I don't want anybody to leave this conversation thinking, well, I have to do five meetings a week right now, just not to gamble.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

And I don't have a lot outside of that. So I don't want anybody feeling that. It's just like you said, like, like Sal says, like it's about finding that balance and that connection to just building and, you know, that community to help you do that and support. So, you know, I love this conversation, and we can go down this road like so many ways because there's so many things that I could could talk like we all could talk about it from our own experience. Um, but you have said that your deepest superpower is instant empathy. And where does that come from? How do you protect it doing this work every day? Because I know the three of us, right? We're in we're in the space and we're um showing up and and doing support in in all different ways. And some days it is hard. And some days, especially the longer you have away from the bet or or even the struggle of the bet, um, you know, and you're in this space where there's a lot of people just coming into it, trying to figure it out, trying to understand it. How does it impact you and how do you maintain it?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Well, yeah, great question. And I know I've heard we all talk about it, but I've heard you particularly. It's like, you know, it's like I have to be centered, I have to do what I have to do for myself. And so I, you know, I go to my meetings, um I am in contact with a lot of people all day, WhatsApp, quick chats from from all over California, New York, just friends. And we're all like-minded. So it's we're supporting each other. I always say the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And so that's a huge part of it. And to tie that, so that's how I do it. The empathy, I think, comes from growing up in a huge family, seeing so much, being the youngest, and also from loss as a younger person. Um, I, you know, in the book The Prophet by Gibran, he he says that joy and sorrow are interlinked forever, and the height of your joy is the flip side of the depth of your sorrow. I believe that 100%. So I think I was gifted with some of that difficulty, which gave me insight and emotional capacity that that sometimes you don't get to. And then, you know, like we're all talking about it's the balance, yeah, it's the moving forward. And just to be clear about this, like I I I throw a lot of dings at GA because I love it. And because if I'm in the middle of it, I want to improve it. And that's good. And and you know, I think sometimes when something saves you, you want to protect it and you want to defend it. And I totally get that, and so do I. But if I really love it, just like ourselves, just like a relationship, just like your child, you want to help it improve. And um, yeah, so I just think leaning forward, but but I feel a privilege to to be an e-vibe. And you know me, Adam, a little better. Like, I don't say these things for points. I feel a privilege because I get to meet people coming in. It's it's challenging. You got to be creative. You put it's not that I really put my opinions aside. I just have to communicate in what I think someone's wanting to engage in and which which portal, right? But what a privilege to be able to to offer that kind of help to people who are really desperate. And uh, and when they're coming in. Of course, there's a lot of people in e Vive who are not desperate and are doing great, and that's why it's thriving. I mean, we help we help guide it, but it's thriving because people are starting to really help each other. But I love it. And it's I've had some great opportunities in my life to work in beautiful settings with great people, and it's not that it's not work, of course it's work, but it's work that I love and it it invigorates me. Yeah. It's a good tired the next day, like my grandfather used to say. It's a good tired.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

No, every time I want to just, you know, be in a pity party or think like, um, I'm whatever. Any negative thoughts surrounding this, I just take a step back and I say, think of how you were working in restaurants and casinos for 25 years, and now this is what you got to do for work. Shut the up. Like, seriously. Quick follow-up about empathy. And this is I I'm just this just popped into my head, like based on the conversation. Do you this is I guess this question is for both of you. Is it possible for someone to someone who is who has zero empathy, is it possible to teach someone to have empathy, or is it something that's kind of God-given, do you think? Because I know some people in my life who great people, but like zero empathy, and I don't think they'll ever have any.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

It's a Pandora's box question, but I think, I think, I think I would say both. Like, you know, if if if you have none, that's another question. And probably it's not going to change. If you have some, yeah, you can build on it. Because I've certainly had and still have massive selfish periods of my life every day. So I I don't, you know how it is in the community, people, you know, if they respect you, they kind of think like, oh, he doesn't have these problems. No, I do every day. Same seven problems we all have, right? But no, I I don't I don't think so. I think it can be honed and refined, but I think maybe by a certain age you have it or you don't. Yeah. No, I have to agree.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

I have to agree. And I think I think empathy and judgment are are like really tied closely tied in. And so it's like if you find people who are very and and judgment is always going to be based off our own experiences, right? We're judging based on off of how we grew up and uh the values that were instilled in us and like our own thoughts and and you know, those types of things. And empathy is is closely tied into that. And so for me, it's like if you find yourself being really, really judgmental, you're lacking a lot of empathy. And I think that's why I love the storytelling aspect and to have conversations with people to share their experiences because it teaches me something. I can guarantee you that I mean, I don't know about guarantee, but prior to recovery, I had less empathy. Like I was very judgmental. Like I remember seeing this woman outside of my office one day, and she was dancing on the stop sign, like dancing. And then later on, she was dancing down the street. She was obviously dancing to no music and to, you know, she was obviously under the influence. And I remember like thinking it was hilarious. And I took this video of her, and this is not a beautiful moment for me, and it's really hard to talk about. But I took this video of her and I'm like, film this on a Friday or something. You know what I mean? It wasn't anything, you know, against her. It was just I I didn't look at her as she is somebody's daughter, she is somebody's sister, she is somebody's loved one, and she needs help. And here I am just kind of making. Light of the situation. And that moment still sets really heavy with me because it wasn't until I mean I was going through my own struggles. You know, I was deep in my addiction and I was struggling. But because I didn't really understand what I was going through, I never even considered that I was struggling in the same capacity. It was just presenting differently. And um it wasn't until I worked on recovery and I found this empathy and this whole other side of understanding and seeing that she was somebody that was loved and she was in this position. And it, I really think that that was the catalyst to my own, my own work in this space and my own amends to that woman, to all the other people that I was judgmental about. Or it's just once that opened up in me, I couldn't see anything else. I couldn't, so now it's like I have this wide empathy, and I really try and think when I have moments of judgment, like, where is this coming from? Is this coming from my own experience with something? And so now it's like, and I want to do the work. I want to better understand. Like, there's gonna be some things that people do that I will never understand. You hurt people or children or dogs, like animals, like or cats. Any any animal. I am an animal lover. I don't care. Like, I'm never gonna like that there, I have some lines, you know, that I'm never gonna understand. But yeah, I think it's just interesting how we how our empathy can grow. And I think you're right. I think if if there are I've met people who have no interest. Feeling sorry for you. They just they just have no interest. And that those are really challenging people for me.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah. Sal, we're running out of time, but I want, I want, I want you to tell us uh, so Christina, not to make you jealous, but I have a signed copy of Sal's book that I want to hear about real quick. And also, I'm I'm sure he's gonna mail you a signed copy right now, or maybe he already has one for you. But also, you know, I want to hear about the recovery partners. So let's let's start with the recovery partners and then and then I want to hear about your book. So uh when did uh when did the idea for the recovery partners happen? And and what is the recovery partners for the people that don't know?

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Yeah, I'll do it fast and backwards. So the book really I wrote for fun. It's called Salutations. That's a loaf of Italian bread on the front. And uh I wrote it in 2018, actually, and my daughter is the editor. She was in her early 20s at the time. Shout out Maria. And happyful was a word she made up when she was eight years old because it's more than happy. Short, real quick, it's a lot of people run from their past, a lot of people live in their past. The idea of this was share your past. There's probably a lot more good stuff in there, and take it out and dust it off once in a while, and that's it. It's a fun book. Um, as far as the recovery partners, the points I was making before about being in GA, going through the steps, living happily, and people being attracted to that. So a friend of mine and I at the time said we should we should start a business to help people almost now I call it like be a Sherpa. Help them start to go up the mountain of recovery, not just teach them the steps, because I'm not going to charge people for that. So it's online coaching and it's a combination of exercises, reading materials, recommendations for other recovery channels, including mostly probably 12-step, um therapy if needed, coaching, whatever. But it's kind of what I think some of the gaps that are left sometimes from self-help and um peer support and therapy. So that's basically what it is. And um, and I really enjoy doing it. I don't twist people's arm to to buy it because it's not for everybody, but some people prefer it, especially in the beginning. They may not want a big meeting, they may have a crazy schedule, and we can accommodate all that. And uh yeah, so I mean, right now it's it's it's e-vive 80% of what I'm doing, 20% of that. Um, but I love it. And I love that that we came up with that to help more people. And um, the last thing I'll say is in AA, they ask, they say how it works in the beginning of a lot of meetings, and they say, if you want what we have here and you're willing to go to, you know, you have to take certain steps, right? What is it that you want? And I had somebody who showed me around and said, Hey, take a look. You want what Joe has? I'm like, not really. He's always angry. You want what Susie has? Well, she's a nice person, but every week she's crying about another relationship. Is it this, is that? Now, people are gonna say, Oh, you're judging, you're taking inventory. No. I'm looking around. There's a difference. And I'm saying, what do I want? What do I want to aspire to? And there's nothing wrong with that. And I guess my message is look around the people, the principles, the life you want, and start to go get it. That's what recovery is. And it doesn't mean you don't respect that you could slip or you don't take care of that, but that's not where it ends. So that I really just wanted to throw that in. Yeah. Love that.

SPEAKER_03 49:09

I do too. Um, so this is the final question that we ask all of our guests. Uh, because we we we love this question. What gives you hope about the recovery space these days?

SPEAKER_01 49:21

A lot of things. My life, for one, because it's a story of of happiness out of going to hell and making a few U-turns. Um But um you know, honestly, e Vive really has a lot to do with it because I sought out Sam a few months ago and I had one of those conversations with him where I'm like, hey, can I just tell you a whole bunch of stuff for a few minutes? He's like, sure. And 13 minutes later, I gave him like my condensed life story and why I wanted to be involved in e-vive, and I didn't even know how. But I love the fact that we are open to all approaches, and we can pontificate on the one we like best on a podcast, but we really are not looking down our nose at the other ones, and we're saying, and it's community, because I think unique, fundamental to all the different approaches, community is the biggest thing. And it's not a new idea. Bill and Bob figured that out a long time ago. Um, so that gives me hope. I see it every day because I'm tired of hearing about oh, the advertisements, the gamma. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know it's terrible, it's an epidemic. Okay, that's not where my focus is. Um, there are other people who will try and fight that battle. I want to reach people, and the silver lining of the epidemic is maybe this will get as much recognition and it will be cool eventually as it is to be sober on our side. I'm not saying it's a trade that I would take, but that's the hand we're dealt. So we should reality.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

And and I'm hopeful because we're we're doing great things. And it's awesome. I'm hopeful because we have people in the community, not the people running it, who I love to read every day and who are thriving.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

What an answer. I mean, we've heard a lot of the same answers, but my life, that's what gives me hope. God, I love that. That that that gave me a that gave me a jolt for the day. That's all I needed, brother.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Oh, I really appreciate you guys. I really appreciate the tone of this and the opportunity and and what we're all doing together. So, so thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Yeah, no, we appreciate you. Uh so yeah, Sal Guarino, thank you so much for coming on eVive live. This was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

Thank you so much.