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Brian Ward | IGRS, BARA - NCPG Board Member

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Brian Ward turned himself in to the police in 2017. What followed was weeks of waiting, panic attacks, houselessness, and the end of his engagement. What came after that was nine years of peer support work, SMART Recovery facilitation, a seat on the NCPG board, and one of the most articulate voices in the gambling harm space. In this episode of Evive Live, Adam and Christina sit down with Brian to talk about how he got there — and what he actually believes about recovery, the industry, and what it means to show up for people who are struggling. 

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.

SPEAKER_02

Hello, welcome to another episode of Evive Live. My name is Adam Lyons.

SPEAKER_01

That was a lot of cadence. I'm Christina Cook.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, no. This is a great episode. Brian Ward. Brian Ward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

He's one of the coolest guys. I knew when I I first met him, you know, all those years ago, like he just instantly made me feel comfortable and at ease because he just you would think that he was just a girl dad or something, because the way that he especially shows up for women, but he does in fact have voice. So um I don't so I don't I don't know about that. But he has always been just a super good guy to be around.

SPEAKER_02

And what's hilarious about him, and I I get this once in a while, but I'm sure not as much as he does. Like every once in a while, I'll have someone say to me, if they don't know me and they just saw me, they like see the tattoos, they see the beard and the bald head, they think I'm this like unapproachable, like whatever. And then like the minute you hear me speak, oh no, he's fine. But like Brian, it's like he's got the beard, he's he's he's he's he's jacked. And it's like if you like see him on a zoom, which I did, like I can remember being like a little intimidated and like, oh, who's this guy? And then the minute he speaks, he speaks like a like a Harvard graduate, like laureate, like you know, professor. Like it's just so funny. And it's kind of what we talked about, where it's like a lot of the same points that I try to make, he says the same thing, but his tone and his language is just so much more. I mean, I guess it's polished, but it's just non-confrontational, and it's like and it's approachable, and and that's what we need right now in this space with all these conversations we're trying to have. We need the Brian Wards of the world who can get the point across without flying off the handle like some people we know once in a while, you know? I'm pointing to me. If you're not watching on YouTube, I was pointing to me. I wasn't calling anyone out.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's absolutely I mean, I think the way that he just and and I as you'll see in this episode, he'll he how he walks us through a smart recovery kind of skill set.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like you can see how he utilizes this justin every day. And I feel like he approaches a lot of conversation with curiosity and kind of like, well, how can we navigate this? And he's an absolutely wonderful man, and he was uh so fun to talk to in this episode. And I hope you guys get to learn more about Smart Recovery. Um, because it's a really it's a really neat um program that can be really helpful if you're not finding yourself connected to 12 step.

SPEAKER_02

And and one and and just one quick thing about him too. It's like he's very knowledgeable, he has a bunch of years of live experience, but he is something that I think most people in his role and in this space could use a little bit of is like he's so humble, he's so modest, you know what I mean? And I think that that's such a strength for him because it you you can just tell that no matter, you know, he could be talking to 50 straight people that he clearly knows he knows more than them, but he would never let you know that. Like he's always gonna come from a place of humility and wanting to help people, and I think that's just so admirable.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Well, we hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did.

SPEAKER_02

Here we go. Here's our conversation with Brian Ward.

SPEAKER_01

Hi, everyone, welcome back to EVIB Live. I'm Christina Cook, host of the Broke Roll Society.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm Adam Lyons of The Modern Meeting.

SPEAKER_01

And today we are here with a really good friend of ours. Um, he's done a lot of amazing stuff in the space. Mr. Brian Ward.

SPEAKER_03

Hi there, both of you. I'm so glad to be here. Um, I promise it's it's not against my will. I know things look kind of weird. I'm under I'm under a pretty big renovation right now, setting up a new space. And so this was better than all the exposed wires. And I know that you all are familiar with with our mutual friend Kitty, who I'm sure will be sending notes about the lighting and and the general presentation. I'm I'm here for uh the content more than the visual. Um as long as people can see my beard, I'm in a good place. So uh I think we're okay.

SPEAKER_02

We we look like the good cop, bad cop, and there's like an interrogation light.

SPEAKER_01

That's exactly how this is gonna go, by the way. And you get to decide who's the good cop, bad cop. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um so again, super happy that you're coming on to to talk with us and in our audience. And just to say a little bit about you, um, I met you four years ago now, I think, in the lovely city of Boston at a conference. That's um, and we have been fast friends ever since. But you know, like like myself and and Adam, you have lived experience and you've used your lived experience to do some really amazing stuff in this space. You are a certified peer in Oregon. Um you've done a lot of great things there. You're also an international gambling recovery specialist or an IGRS, but you're also a BARA, which is for those who might be interested in getting their IGRSs, the BARA is who will supervise you and who will sign off on your your hours and your work and kind of help offer guidance. So I helped create the certification and I am not a BARA. So, but it was fantastic that you were you and Kitty and and several others were able to be grandfathered in because of the years of work that you've had um in peer and because you're exemplary, you know, peer supervisors and workers. So um that was really exciting when I found out that we were gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03

Uh it it was it was genuinely thrilling to to know that that was coming. It was also all um all thanks to uh Greta Coe at the Oregon Health Authority for recommending Kitty and I to be part of the work group that put together the core competencies. Um, she recognizes the value of lived experience, especially when it comes to like coming up with certifications for lived experience. And so being part of that work group was was um meaningful. It was definitely one of the one of the most meaningful parts and probably one of the most scalable projects that I've ever been able to do. And so um I gotta make sure to give credit where credit is due for that as well. For sure.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. And um, you know, we obviously would love to sit here and hear your entire story. Um, but you know, this is eVive live. We want to hear more about you know the work you do. But before we get to that, we do need to hear at least the abridged version. Um, and for those of you who want to listen to the full version, was Brian ever on the BGS?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so you can go to the you can go to the Brokeral Society or the Modern Meeting. Brian has been on both, where we hear his story in detail. But yeah, just uh to catch the eVive live audience up to speed, tell us a little bit about your lived experience with gambling harm.

SPEAKER_03

Sure. Yeah, um the the probably most relevant information is that I started gambling in the way that I became addicted to when I was 21. I was introduced to it um through my mother, who also gambled in the same way. In Oregon, we have these video lottery terminals, they kind of play a little bit like real games, and um they are high velocity, uh very easy to get hooked on, and so I did. And uh through years of it kind of developing and morphing and and realigning itself with like the the the things that I was finding valuable at the time, and we can talk a little bit more about like the language that I use and all of that, because sometimes it's a little unique, but um but the gambling really found its way into um the elements of my life that I found important and kind of justified its own existence. Um so a lot of folks they they view uh financial um financial security as really fundamental for their being. And so the gambling will kind of like use that to justify its existence. Hey, we know how to get more financially stable. For me, it was about like peace, some sense that like, you know, the world didn't have to hurt so bad. And particularly when my mom was diagnosed uh with terminal cancer, life got really painful really quick. And it was the gambling that was right there to be like, I got you. I know exactly how to make you feel a little better, even if it's just for a little while. And so uh I I pursued it almost to no end. I mean, anything that I could do to engage with it a little bit to just take some of the sting of life off was what I was doing. And that included taking money from a protected demographic of people here in Oregon. Um, and so in 2017, when there was a financial audit of the place that I was working at the time, um, I excused myself, turned myself into the police and went through the whole kind of justice system up in up until sentencing. Um it was uh as as quick as it was, and as much as it happened in a flash, those moments of the sitting and waiting were probably the hardest part, knowing that because I turned myself in, there was gonna need to be a big whole investigation. And so we're talking weeks of me just sitting on baited breath, not sure what's going to happen next. And that led to everything from like panic attacks that even uh medical staff thought were like heart attacks, and so being advised to go to the hospital to get my heart checked, um uh to like my my then fiance kicking me out of my home. So I experienced a few weeks of houselessness, although I was very um grateful to have the friend group and the family that I do that were able to help support me through all that, give me places to stay for a little while. Um, and then when it finally came time for me to um to face the judicial system about all of this, I had already been doing quite a bit of work. I had started attending gamblers anonymous meetings, um, I had I had retained a sponsor, I was looking for work. So by the time I actually got in front of a judge, there was a lot of things that were going right. And so here in the state of Oregon, um, because we have a little bit more of a progressive view on things like incarceration uh versus say recovery endeavors, the state agreed that I would be, I would be better suited to be a part of society and try to work towards paying off the money than to be incarcerated and um in a cell. So a couple years of probation, um I I did the plea deal, and then pretty much since December of 2017, I've been really kind of committed to um I guess once I realized I wasn't going to prison, it was time for me to get to work. And uh, so that's where the last nine years have taken me through working on myself, being through a few rounds of counseling, once the gambling was able to get kind of stabilized, and then it's like, yeah, but there's still this trickiness, there's still there's still these pain points that are happening. So another bout of it, and learned about like psychodynamic therapy and all of that, and um and got to a spot where I felt a little bit more comfortable showing up for other folks, and so uh nowadays working as a peer support specialist now both locally and internationally, um doing smart recovery, which I'm sure I'm sure you all will want to hear more about because usually you do. And uh and so really just just being able to find enough stability. Life's not perfect, it's not great. I'm you know, I've got things that happen in life, but having enough stability that I feel comfortable being able to support other folks as well. And it's taken me to some pretty amazing places, but I'll save some of that for later on in the discussion. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So you mentioned the VLTs or some other parts of the country, the VGTs, video gaming terminals, video lottery terminals. Now, when you and I first spoke on the modern meeting uh several months ago, and you described these, and you know, when I when I interviewed Kitty almost a year ago, shout out Kitty. I took my glasses off my head for Kitty because she doesn't like them when I put them on my head. Um, when you guys described them, I didn't really fully understand what they were until these last few months when I've been going to different conferences throughout the country, particularly in the Midwest, and they're in gas stations, they're in convenience stores, they're in restaurants illegally. Um, so talk a little bit about, you know, because we often hear about someone like me who was just as addicted to the comps and the free plays and the and the hotel rooms, where the VLTs and the VGTs, I think it's very kind of similar to online where it's like it's just you and the machine, it's just you and your phone, right? So can you talk a little bit more about what that was like compared to like the casino aspect of gambling?

SPEAKER_03

It's it's an interesting part that you bring up, right? Because there is there isn't a social element in the traditional way of like here we are playing blackjack and we're all gonna deal in and interact with each other. It's more like parallel play. It's it's more here's a group, and in in Oregon, bars and delis are able to have up to six machines at a time. And um, the agency that I contract with Voices of Problem Gambling Recovery has actually done some uh some endeavor to make sure that businesses are only having like six machines in each establishment. But so it's not like you're you're inherently interacting with other folks. Sure, you get a big one, there's gonna be a little kind of celebration around the room, but for the most part, you and the machine are there recognizing that other folks are there with their machine. And um, and so it reminds me a lot of people who do like body doubling or you know, for ADHD to like complete tasks. We're not engaging together, but knowing that someone else is there doing it too helps to kind of keep me on track, helps to kind of keep me invested in this endeavor. And so um I I don't know that I ever would have kind of put that string together or pulled that thread until you just brought it up. So see, here we are nine years later, and I'm still trying to put some of these pieces together. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I I bring it up because we so we were just in uh where the heck were we?

SPEAKER_01

We were in uh where were we city, Missouri?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so we were in Kansas City and shout out to uh Ted Hartwell. We went to a not a casino, Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01

We what are you doing? What are you doing on your time off?

SPEAKER_02

We went to a karaoke bar, and it's like you walk in and it's this really cool shout out to the water's edge in Blue Springs. There's like, you know, everything you could want to do in there. There's darts, there's karaoke, there's there's a kitchen open till 1 a.m. But sure enough, there's there was a couple slot machines in the corner, and there's two people just mind-numbingly playing those slot machines. And I I almost I almost struck up a conversation with them, but I didn't. But I just I don't know. I I can never get on, I can never understand how a business, especially nowadays, like like how do you justify that? How do you justify putting that thing in the corner of a restaurant? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, most people don't have the experiences that that I mean, I'm a lot of people do, but most restaurant owners probably are just like, this is gonna bring in a couple extra bucks. They're not thinking about how it's gonna impact the people, maybe, and hopefully, you know, restaurant owners and things, if they see a regular who might be experiencing harm, hopefully they'll step in and give resources. Most likely, I think from our own experiences, that doesn't happen. But um, I guess that's a little bit of hope that we can leave with them.

SPEAKER_03

And yeah, and I do kind of relate it to this, the the same could be said about any kind of like addictive substance that's readily available, right? How is it that uh and and I ask this very rhetorically because I I do believe that there's not only an answer but a conversation to be had with it. But it's it's the same premise as bars. I mean, like there are establishments that that make make us a good or a service available that some people find harmful. And so the onus becomes rather than saying we need to prohibit it from existing, let's make sure that people are trained to recognize the warning signs. In most bartenders know how to cut someone off. They know the warning signs to look for, they know when to say, look, you've had enough. And we don't have those same cues here in this realm. That's not to say that there's no way that we can train somebody up to be able to say, like, hey, and and this is, I mean, this is speaking actually very directly to my story because the last day that I gambled, the person working behind the counter when I went to cash in my ticket was like, Oh, good, maybe now you can go home and get some sleep. And I was like, huh. Yeah, maybe, wouldn't that be great? And then and then the money was gone. And then I left. And so, like, we know that that there's a willingness for people to be able to offer that, but we're but a lot of folks aren't trained on what to look for, or they don't know how to have that conversation. Whereas when it comes to alcohol, because there are those visual cues, it's a lot easier to start having, even though it's uncomfortable, that conversation.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, it's so true. And how have I I don't think I've ever heard that before? Where and you know, someone who worked in the restaurant industry for 20 years, like I, yeah, like I would I've I've shut off millions of people or or slowed down not millions, but a lot of people. But and and you know, you say that there's no visual cues, but you know, if that person has been sitting there for eight hours and they haven't spoken to a soul and they're down a few thousand, yeah. I mean, it's so interesting. It's it's it's uh there's definitely that's a huge area of opportunity, especially for these these keynobars and these these these places that have these VLTs. Yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

That's always the big question, though. Let me just jump in. That's always the big question that I get asked at conferences and things like that that are RG specific or um, I say RG, but responsible gambling, um specific. And and you know, if there's operators or people there, they're always like they're always looking for how they can interact or how they can intervene. I don't know Brian, I know you probably asked. Do you see how I stumbled to say Brian? Because I always call you Ward. So I was like, I need to address his first name, not his last name. Um but I'm sure you've been asked a bunch of times. Adam, I'm not sure how many times you've probably been asked, but like at these different conferences, right? That we've all probably been asked, like, how do we interact with somebody like me? Right? Like, and I I never know the best answer to say, because it it's very much to your point, Brian, about we have to be ready to receive it or we have to be ready to understand it. You know, because my very last interaction, the guy was like, No, you're gonna go home with this, right? And I was completely incredulous. Like, of course. And because it was it was that m that money would have helped me so much out of the hole that I dug myself in. But I was completely incredulous of like, why would you even ask me that? And then eight hours later I walk out with no money. And you know what I mean? But what would that interaction have looked like? Is there a different way he could have come at me? Is there a different way that person could have come at you or you? You know what I mean? Like when we think about those last moments, and that has always been the toughest question to answer for me.

SPEAKER_03

And I think one of the things that we that we sometimes conflate is how do we change this person's life versus how do we have an uncomfortable conversation to to detach somebody now? Because the thing is, shutting someone off at the bar, cutting someone off isn't necessarily going to make them pursue going to a 12-step meeting or or what you're doing is you're protecting them in a moment and you're protecting yourself, your your own liabilities. And so it's not necessarily going to push somebody in the direction of, say, recovery, but it may get them to detach enough and put enough of those together, somebody may start to to introduce concern or interest in their own change behaviors. Um, of like, wow, I'm getting cut off every day. What's up with that? Maybe there is something going on that I'm that I'm that I haven't considered yet.

SPEAKER_02

Brian, you're you're on fire right now. You you got my brain going crazy. Because so when when when Christina asked that question, what I wrote down was I wrote nine out of ten people that I would shut off at the bar, it would end in some type of conflict or them being angry or that. But I'm I was always trained and I always trained my staff that it doesn't matter. We're liable. If that person leaves and gets in a car accident and and they get a DUI or they, God forbid, worse, it's on us. So, like, who cares? If we lose that customer, oh well, right. But when it's the casino, to your point, it wouldn't matter anyways if you cut someone off. But part of the reason why Why I also worked in the casino industry, that we never had those conversations. I mean, they never said it out loud, but it's most likely because their money's good here. Like it's it's it's we we want we want it. And um, and and you you know, let the person make their own decision, right? It's their money, they can do what they want with it. But it's it's if you really think about it, them leaving, what happens if that person leaves and they harm themselves? Or, you know, they're their losing gambling leads them to make reckless decisions. It's the same thing, kinda. So, but yeah, like we're so concerned with having that uncomfortable conversation, but we have no problem doing it multiple times a night in every bar in the country.

SPEAKER_03

And it and it may be worth talking about things like ill-gotten gains, you know, when people are facing criminal charges and things like that. Why are we not talking about the fact that the amount of money taken and then being fed into, say, establishments or or entities, they're they're not required to put that money back. And and, you know, I am not a policymaker. I am not the one that's going to make rules and regulations around this, but we can advocate for it. And we can certainly talk about the very real consequences that people experience and get really loud and really vocal about that. I, given some of the work that I do and and some of the volunteer positions that I hold, uh, and then just my my true belief that like I really don't hold a moral stance on legalized gambling, but you're you better be damn sure that I do believe that they have a responsibility. And there are people in the industry who are good people who are trying their best, who are having to tow a line that I would not want to tow. But that doesn't change that we gotta be having these conversations and we gotta be willing to we gotta be willing to come to the table saying that there are concerns, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. We do not have to say that gambling has to be illegalized or prohibited, and we don't have to say that it needs to be unfettered and predatory. We can say there is a responsibility to walk, and right now we're not there. So let's keep coming to the table, let's keep talking about how to get more entities there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So off my soapbox, and happy to stay on that. You're on fire today.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's great. But let's let's go ahead and like I mean, all the work that you do is amazing in this space. Like, I've heard you share a lot of um present different presentations and and different thought processes. But what I really have enjoyed getting to know as well is the smart recovery format, which you're a huge proponent of. And I was wondering if you want to share a little bit about what smart recovery looks like. And as somebody who's been doing it for a long time, and and how did you find smart recovery versus um you know, going a traditional GA route or some other traditional routes?

SPEAKER_03

So I did. I I did go traditional GA. Like that was my my first meeting, was a was a GA meeting here in Portland. And I did that for probably a year and a half before smart ever really entered the picture for me. Um again, I mean, we are gonna name drop Kitty so many times, but it was Kitty that introduced me because she was a facilitator. And when she became my certified gambling recovery mentor, it was a way for her to further develop my skills. It was a way for her to bring me and introduce me into a new community. And I mean, we we know all of the platitudes. We know that community is the enemy of addiction and things like that. So it was just another access point, a distinct access point. I've I've gotten to where I don't I don't talk about it in terms of like it's an alternative to 12-step. It's a distinct model. It it's not meant to be a replacement, it's not meant to be an add-on, it's its own thing that can fill a lot of holes for a lot of different folks. And the same thing goes with Recovery Dharma, with Celebrate Recovery, with Rock to Recovery. I mean, there's they all are kind of meant to fill their own purposes. And so treating them as though they're supposed to be like substitutes for each other to me kind of misses the point that we are trying to create a recovery net. And the wider net we can cast, the more people we can catch. And so I have no problem with 12-step um, as far as the fact that like it helps a lot of people, uh, it it shows up in a way that is very community driven. And the smart kind of looks at it and says, like, we're gonna focus more on like skills and tools, and we're gonna develop them in a community capacity without necessarily saying that we are your community. And so, to kind of touch on on smart recovery, what I would rather do is I would rather you two tell me what you remember about it, and then I'll plug some holes. So, um, so I'm gonna throw this back at you and say, what do you remember about our conversations about SMART?

SPEAKER_01

Oh no. Um, I'm just gonna embarrass myself because I I don't I know just enough about it to be dangerous. Um, because I don't, I haven't really, it's not part of my particular recovery program. But what I do really enjoy about it is one, it's not based on a higher power, right? It's not secular, it's not, it's it can be whatever you need it, but that I think that that was a core difference is kind of it's it's it's not based on a higher power. And two, it's not about day counting. Um you know, those are kind of some things that I that stand out between differences with other 12-step fellowships, right? Is that oftentimes it's it's um around day counting, uh, you know, really focusing on on getting those days away from the vet and also really leaning into a higher power. And so that was kind of always really interesting to me. And I know you're probably gonna be like, well, let's let's really break that down. But really too, sometimes the people are looking for more of a and I know scientific isn't the word, but more of a kind of a based in science formula to understanding their relationship with gambling. And that's how I've always seen smart as a way to kind of connect with that kind of that particular skill set, or you know, that really want to identify patterns and behaviors and really kind of want to be able to do like your cost and cost analysis um things. I remember doing a few of those worksheets, and I really loved how sometimes it could take overly complicated thought processes sometimes and really help you just kind of let's let's break them out here. Yeah. And you do you do the different worksheets and you kind of really work through the pros and cons of things. So I mean, just some of those skill sets that smart really likes to focus on, those are you know really appealing when it comes to smart. At least I when I when I'm working with a peer um or somebody, I kind of know where their skill sets are, right? And some need like to me, GA is a more step-by-step process, right? Gives you a lot of information up front, says, hey, if you do it this way, you know, this is gonna be really helpful. Where, you know, sometimes you get people that just wanna be more analytical and look look inward.

SPEAKER_02

So that that that's my um Yeah, everything she just said, plus um, like I just remember you talking about like like yeah, it's more science and it's more like actual like practical exercises, right? And like and and and almost like uh like self-empowerment, like not higher power, not not spirituality, which my follow-up question is so and and see this is embarrassing, but it's also good. And I I you bring up a good point, Christina, because like I must say the phrase smart recovery at least once a day, if not like four to five times a day. And I don't know what the hell it is. I really don't. Like, so so are you doing actual like activities and like exercises during a smart recovery meeting, or is that all to be done like outside the meeting?

SPEAKER_03

So uh facilitators are gonna kind of figure out what the meeting needs, both for the day, but also just kind of as a structure. And so um, I really liked what I was introduced to, which was like a brief check-in session and then a tool exploration. And so as a group, we come together and the facilitator introduces a tool, a concept, and and what smart kind of defines it as. And then as a group, we work through the process of it together.

SPEAKER_02

And so what give us an example of that. Like, what would be a tool?

SPEAKER_03

So, so the one that I really, really like is uh an ABC. I probably I still use it half a dozen times a day. Uh, it is my go-to because once you get really good at them, they're not they're not these like hour-long discussions. You can you can pop off an ABC in about 20 seconds when you know how to do it. And so the the 40-minute discussion that you have is getting people familiar with the concept so that they can start to break it down for themselves and streamline it. So, much like what we're doing here, I just introduced the tool. So, here's a question for y'all. You ever been cut off in traffic?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, all the time.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Yeah, that's really uncomfortable. Uh what sort of what sort of feelings come up for you?

SPEAKER_01

Road rage. Instead of it.

SPEAKER_03

First feeling is anger for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Great. What else? Then it is restraint because all the TikToks of road rage go into my head and I don't want to get shot.

SPEAKER_03

Great. Okay. Um wonderful. For a lot of folks, when they get cut off in traffic, one of the first emotional responses is fear. You are you are driving thousands of pounds of steel on the road, interacting with other thousands of pounds of steel. And to be cut off puts you in this moment of fight, flight, freeze. Why do you think people yell so often? So fear, anger. What are some of the thoughts that come up? What when when you start thinking about it? Where does your mind go?

SPEAKER_02

So you're right. It it it goes for me, it goes fear, anger, and then restraint. Yeah. In that initial, I I guess my first thought is like like, thank God I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I was just gonna-I'm okay. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You all have you all have practiced your gratitude. My first thought is you son of a bitch. Oh, yeah, no. How dare you?

SPEAKER_02

That's my second thought. Once I'm okay. Once I realize I'm okay, then I wanna, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So, so uh for me it becomes like this.

SPEAKER_01

You were like, Boy, you guys have really practiced your gratitude. I guess, I guess that's true because we have years of recovery. So maybe that's it. So it you'd probably have to ask me, you know, seven years ago.

SPEAKER_02

I love this by the way. I I love this right now. Can we keep doing this? I really want to keep going.

SPEAKER_03

So, you know, the the uncomfortable thoughts that come up, the ones that you you kind of know, like, ugh, that that hurts to think, right? What are some of those thoughts that come up when you get cut off in traffic?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I have a confession. I swear I say this every single time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Christina's face. Whenever, whenever I get cut off, or whenever, let's say I'm driving 70, if someone flies past me 100 miles an hour, weaving in and out of traffic, super dangerous. I swear, Brian, every single time I say, God, I hope they crash. I really say that. I really say that. I swear to God.

SPEAKER_03

And and here's the thing thoughts are thoughts, right? Right. They they have no impact on your life. They they are fleeting, they are oftentimes dark impulses that are trying to come up, and usually in a response to those uncomfortable emotions. So no bad thoughts, right? Yeah, we are not here to talk about morals, we are here to talk about discomfort. And right now, that thought coming up of like, oh, I really hope he gets his, right? And uh, no, no.

SPEAKER_02

I literally say the exact words. I say, God, let him crash. That's what I say.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, great. Thank you for that. Thank and and and for being for being willing to talk about that. So then now that now that we've been able to identify that that's probably stemming from the anger that you were feeling or the fear, now we're having this connective thought to it. Now we're gonna work on that thought and say, is there anything that we can do to kind of dispute it? So so how do we dispute the thought you just had?

SPEAKER_02

How do we dispute it?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like how do we defend like how do we defend that person's actions?

SPEAKER_03

How do we how do we recognize that the thought that we just had isn't really helpful in this moment for us?

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, because um I think for me, I would just be like, I don't really mean that. Like I don't really mean like when I have those thoughts for for me, like it maybe not in this particular situation, but in other situations where I'm thinking, man, I hope they get what's coming to them. You know what I mean? Or but oftentimes instant guilt for feeling that way will pop up for me. And I will like anytime I have a bad thought about anybody, like it's always followed by instant guilt. Like I don't mean that um, you know, yeah, and that's exactly so it goes through this little process of that for some reason if it's going inwards, if I'm saying something harmful about myself, I can't disrupt that in the same way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, see, I have that I have that thought process when it's like someone that I know in my life that I might get really angry at. But when I am on the road and someone is driving like an idiot, I truly I I guess I well, I definitely don't hope that they die, but I definitely hope that they crash to kind of like teach them a lesson. And I so, but to dispute that, I mean, I guess it's the thing that just popped in my head was like karma. Eventually they'll get pulled over, eventually they'll get a ticket, and some ways they can learn the lesson. Yeah, like I can't control it. They're already gone, they're already out of my, I'll never see that person again. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Now now we're getting their interns rates go up. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, maybe, maybe that'll teach them the lesson. Maybe we don't have to. So, so and and so sometimes the thoughts that come up for folks are like that person's a dick or an asshole, or you know, whatever it is. Sorry, I don't know what your language uh barriers are around this. We're okay. Um, but so so being able to dispute it would be something like, I don't even know that person, right? They may be on the hospital on their way to the hospital with a kid with with an injury. That's right. And so they may not be in the best head space. Does that mean that they're being safe? No. But it does dispute that belief, that absolute belief that I had that this person is terrible. And so then we get to a spot where we might be able to implement a little bit of change, where we can say, the next time that I find myself in this situation, because let's be very real, we live in the United States, we're probably going to get cut off in traffic again. But is there something that I can do to either try to minimize it, to make sure that it doesn't happen as often, or if it does happen, that I can respond to it in a more healthy way? And so we might get to what was my position like in the road? Was I hovering in somebody's blind spot and they cut me off because they didn't see me? And if so, then maybe my own spatial awareness. Maybe if I would have left five minutes earlier to get to work, I wouldn't feel like crowding the person in front of me. I could be a little bit more leisurely and offer more space for people to get whatever it is, we can start to implement change. But we really can't do that until we've been able to look at the thoughts and feelings and say, well, that wasn't helpful. And here's why it wasn't helpful. So here's what I'm gonna do instead. So congratulations. In about seven minutes, uh, you just learned the ABC. And now you can take that with you. You can practice it in your own time, learn how to internalize it, and now you have a skill not only for the discomfort of like experiencing an urge to gamble, but for the next time you get caught up in the traffic or the next time you stub your toe on a nightstand. This is a tool that becomes so transferable.

SPEAKER_02

So now that that was awesome. That was awesome, and thank you for taking us through that. I have to ask I no, that's I have to ask this follow-up because I'm sure I'm not the first person who's a GA guy who's gone through that exercise who has thought this, but there's a lot of serenity prayer, I feel like, in that as far as just you know, what you can control, what you can't control. Do you do you often get people like making that comparison?

SPEAKER_03

It's one of the main reasons that like I I did both programs for like you know, it took about a year and a half after GA to get in smart, and then I did both for like three years. Yeah. I mean, up in up until the pandemic kind of shut everything down. I was going to about three meetings a week, and they were they were coupling. They that the ABC became how I practiced the serenity prayer. It was this is something I can control. And my wisdom is teaching me that I can't control getting cut off in traffic. What I can control is my response to it. And what I can control is using this tool to better respond to that discomfort so that I'm not always stressed out on the road, which by the way, might be contributing to what's causing me to go gamble because of the amount of anxiety I'm under all the time.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so, so being able to treat both of them as these kind of like uh intertwining augmentations of each other was my journey. That's how I did it. So yeah. Yeah, you're right, you're not the first one. Because I did it too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And the one thing about smart too that I'm realizing it's really important that you have a good facilitator, right? Because you're essentially like kind of teaching a class, it sounds like a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_03

It it is meant. So this one, because I was trying to kind of guide you through it and we didn't have as much time. So it was a little bit more forced than typical. I try to have much more robust conversations. The the idea is to be a facilitated discussion about the tool with a facilitator who knows it and can guide, but it's not like I've the worst thing that I hear is when people say this was a great class. I do not like that because that immediately puts me in an authoritative role that I don't deserve. And it it gets rid of the of the equity and the equality that people are supposed to be bringing into the meetings. All of a sudden, they just want to learn from me instead of investing wholly into the exercise themselves. They start expecting answers rather than discussions.

SPEAKER_01

I like that perspective.

SPEAKER_02

I do, I do, but I think it's a little humble. Like, is it a bad thing if you're an awesome facilitator and people feel like that you taught them something? Or is that just not what smart is?

SPEAKER_03

It I mean, uh sure. I mean, if if people are taking from my example, but the other, I think the better, and what I would tell people is you're gonna hear this mouth, you're gonna see this beard flop and you're gonna hear this mouth moving a lot. But the real gold nuggets come from the discussion that happens amongst the participants. Okay. If this was a more full-fledged meeting, you'd be learning as much from Christina and her insights into this tool as you would be from me who knows how to break the tool down. So, in in in a much more full-fledged meeting, the hope, the ambition, the reason that the facilitators are told that this is meant to be a web of discussion. It's not everybody talking to me or me talking to everybody. It's having conversations that I'm kind of observing and keeping on track. That's what the facilitator's main role is is to get from the beginning of the meeting to the end with some sense of cohesion.

SPEAKER_01

So And that's how I like to look at like all recovery meetings, right? Like when you go into a meeting, you're it really is about the community in that meeting. And you know, it's it's always the facilitator's job, which I facilitate meetings, is to start the meeting, to navigate the meeting, to keep moving the meeting forward. And but to me, it's like no matter what the topic is, like I I would have people sometimes see the topic and be like, ah, I'm pretty familiar with that topic, I'm not gonna go to the meeting. But I always encourage, like, it doesn't matter what the topic is. You go into a meeting, even if it's a topic you're familiar with, right? Even if you've got three years of recovery and this topic might be recovery 101, right? And you go into this meeting and you might think you have it all figured out, or you know, like you think this particular thing means this, but then you go into the meeting and you hear this perspective from somebody else, and you're like, mind blown. Like I didn't think like that, or I didn't kind of relate that because that wasn't my experience, but I can relate it in a way when you share yours. And so I think that that's just a key role, just like the serenity prayer. Like one of my core foundations of recovery is really understanding what's in my control and what isn't. What belongs to me and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And those are the things that I really like use every day in my recovery. And so whether it's through Smart or GA or any other recovery space, it really does boil down to those those core things. And then learning from other people how to put them in my life. You know what I mean? A lot of the stuff that I've learned, a lot of the tools and skills that I've learned have been through just other meeting conversations, not necessarily how the facilitator landed it, but maybe how I heard it and by through somebody else. And so um I really appreciate you breaking it down in that manner.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Um we're running out of time, but two two two more questions. So you know, you mentioned earlier about the importance of having a seat at the table as people who work in the space, you know, avoiding the whole all or nothing where you right. So my question to you is where does Brian Ward stand right now? Because if you talk to me, I feel like I'm getting swayed back and forth at opposite ends of the spectrum every quarter when it comes to the industry. And as of right now, especially after this past weekend, talking to some people who work for the big people in RG, I'm really leaning towards the fact that like I'm just whatever, like whatever I was a year ago as far as like anti-industry, like I'm almost the opposite of that now. Yeah, I guess this is a long-winded question of like, where do you stand right now as far as the industry and not only like how should we be looking at it as people who work in this space, but someone who's early on in recovery? And you know, they can't help but use the current gambling landscape as an excuse or a reason of why they can't stop gambling.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Where do you stand on this currently in June of 2026?

SPEAKER_03

Uh, I I stand pretty similar to where I stood early on. Of course, I had anger to start off with, right? Like, of course, there was there was the part of me that that wished that it didn't exist. Um, but pretty early on, what I started kind of recognizing is first that there are good people doing really hard jobs in spaces that we don't even hear everything that's happening, right? Like we we don't know what happens behind the closed doors of RG meetings and all of that. And not because they're trying to keep it secret, but because like there are some things that don't pan out, or there are, and and uh I could go off on a whole tangent about that, but where I stand is there is a responsibility for all parties involved. We do not sacrifice or we do not get a pass of our own decisions simply because there was something made available. We still had decisions in those moments, and so we are responsible for those. Just like the industry has made decisions, and those decisions may be causing harm. There may be room to have discussions around what the alternative would have been and whether or not harm was mitigated through different decisions, but there are decisions that are being made too, and those decisions are are-I mean, we hold people accountable to this to the decisions that they make. We hold entities accountable to the decisions that they make. And the way that we can hold them accountable is to be able to have discussions with them. And right now, and I Adam, I think you may have heard me say this before in other settings, which is if we if we want to be invited to the table, we have to be willing to talk. We have to be willing to hear the other side, we have to be able to understand that they they are part of organizations that have their own missions. Some of them are bound by things that we don't understand. I will say that in Oregon, like the main mission of the Oregon lottery that was voted on, their mandate is to generate revenue for the state of Oregon. So they do. Because Oregon voters, when the Oregon Lottery was enacted, didn't have public health as a concern at that point. I will say, in conversations that I've had with some of their team that are more geared towards the RG side of things, that they actually do commit quite a bit of resources towards uh uh research and prevention and messaging and all of that. Is it enough? Well, harm is still happening. So it'd be great if we could get it to where like harm was reduced to zero. I don't see that happening. What I do see happening is a continued discussion that can be had that, frankly, if all gambling was illegalized, there would be no incentive for organizations to talk to us. There'd be no incentive for them to take into account and provide resources for the services that are made available for when the harm does happen. And so I tend to lean pretty heavily into it's it's why I became part of the board for NCPG. I mean, I became a I became a board member because I was elected to it. But the reason that I ran was because I believed in that messaging of bringing folks to the table. And I believed that NCPG was the table. That it was, it was the place that the people congregated to be able to have those difficult discussions. And so I am in the same room with people who work for the industry. I'm in the same room as people who work for the local, uh, the state affiliate councils. And we can have really robust, in-depth conversation about what it means to mitigate gambling harm and how everybody's bringing pieces to the table. So that was a very long-winded answer as well. Um, but but that's that's where I stand on it.

SPEAKER_02

So no, I love it, and that makes a lot of sense. Has anyone ever told you that? Have you ever seen Parks and Wreck? Yes. Like you're Ron Swanson. You really are. Like, you just I love your vocabulary. You're like a thesaurus. I just love it. I love it. That's a compliment. Ron Swanson's one of the greatest characters of all time.

unknown

Yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_03

And Nick Offerman's one of my favorite actors, too. Yeah, so yeah. So we're I'm in a good place with this.

SPEAKER_01

All right. So as we're winding this down, um, there's a question that we ask everybody that's that's on this podcast. Um, and especially, you know, with your lived experience and your background and and all the advocacy and peer and you know, all the conversations. What gives you hope for this space?

SPEAKER_03

The passion. The the passion that I see all the time, every every conference that I go to. There are folks like yourselves, like me, who who are very, very public advocates uh for that lived experience. There are also people who are giving folks like us platforms to speak. There are, there are, and and creating opportunities for it. And and so my hope rests in the passion that stands behind the lived experience. That that sometimes pushes us a little beyond our comfort zones. I mean, I'll I'll be very real that a lot of us think we're ready for public speaking until it's time to do so. A lot of us think that we're ready for podcasts uh or video uh video film until things come up and we're not exactly ready for it. But the fact that we're continually given platforms is something that not only gives me a lot of hope, but a sense of duty, a duty of care to be a strong advocate and be able to, yes, come with a vocabulary, but but maybe more importantly, come with a message of of unifying, come with a message that does bring people back to that table to say, yeah, we all have a very similar goal in mind. Maybe there are different motivations, but that doesn't distract or detract from the goal that we all share, which is to try to minimize harm and the people who experience it.

SPEAKER_00

So um yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, you're just uh it's like you make a lot of the same points I make, but you're just so much more nice about it and and and articulate. I gotta, I need some, I need some talking lessons from you, Brian Ward. I mean, god damn it.

SPEAKER_03

I am I am happy to to talk about messaging. I I also think that you speak your truth and and it's very honest. And I think that there's some people who find me a little a little polished and and overproduced, I guess would be like a way to put it. Um, where sometimes I'm too cautious, sometimes I I come at it things with such diplomacy that it comes across as kind of this this uh I don't take a hard stance on things, which I try not to, but yeah, um, but I do think that there's room for all sorts of voices, including, yeah, maybe more, and I'm not saying this of you, but voices that are more brazen than mine. Um, voices that are going to be a little bit louder and a little bit more in your face of like, you know, okay, yeah, what Brian said was cute, but here's the fact people are people are really struggling and we're not doing enough.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, I think like the perfect messaging is like 85% you, 15% me, maybe, as far as just throwing in a sprinkling in a little bit of that brazen, but just seasoning, just seasoning at them throughout those days. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh well, this was awesome.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I appreciate your time. Uh honestly, I love what y'all are doing here. And and uh all kudos to a Vive for again continually providing platforms for folks with lived experience to be able to come together and present the messaging. So yeah. Yeah. Christina, you good?

SPEAKER_01

I'm good. This is great. We appreciate you so much.

SPEAKER_02

That was like the fastest 50 minutes ever. Thank you so much, Brian Ward. It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.