Evive Live
Evive Live is a conversation series at the intersection of gambling harm and behavioral health. Hosted by Adam Lyons (The Modern Meeting) and Christina Cook (The Broke Girl Society), each episode features clinicians, researchers, treatment providers, peer specialists, and people in recovery having the honest conversations the field needs — about what gambling disorder really looks like, what treatment actually works, and what it takes to build a recovery that lasts.
Evive Live
Ronnie Wahkinney | Associate Director, OAPGG
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Ronnie Wahkinney will be the first to tell you he's been a man of many faces over the course of his life. Growing up half Comanche in rural Oklahoma, addiction found him early and took him places most people don't come back from. Sitting down with Adam and Christina, Ronnie shares everything. The drugs, the arrests, the prison time, the son he missed growing up, and the twenty years of recovery that eventually led him to become the Associate Director of the Oklahoma Association for Problem Gambling and Gaming. He also talks about what makes gambling addiction different from every other addiction he has experienced — and why the hope of the next bet makes it uniquely hard to walk away from.
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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060
🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety
🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.
Hello, welcome to another episode of V Vive Live. My name is Adam Lyons of the Modern Meeting Podcast. I'm here with Christina Cook of the Broke Girl Society. Christina, we had an Oki on this week. Ronnie. We did.
SPEAKER_03We did. And he's so great. And um, he does a lot of really great work in our state. And his story is wow. Like I mean, wow.
SPEAKER_00It's it's like Breaking Bad and uh the Shawshank Redemption. And I mean, it's just what a story. I mean, we needed more than an hour, and uh, you know, we we might have to, I'm definitely gonna get them on the modern meeting at some point. We're gonna do a two-parter. But um just, I mean, all I could think about is like it's never too late to like turn your life around, right? Or or like no matter what happens, if if you decide to get on that right path or that better path, things, things, things will get better, right? And it's just like and and if if if you know, when I think sometimes of like, oh, you know, sitting in my nice apartment, or like, if things are gonna get better, try being Ronnie in incarcerated, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think I think his story is so impactful, but you know, it it he has gambling, gambling is interwoven in his story, but sore drugs and alcohol and you know, just a lot of kind of early chaos are woven into his story. So, but regardless of whether it was the gambling, the alcohol, the drugs, like the same impacts were happening, right? The family um breakdown and kind of what was happening there, the the not being present in relationships, the chaos, um, all the different things that that addictions um I don't know that I'm a hundred percent advocate that addiction uh addiction and addictions are all the same. I think there's uh definitely a very um there's a connection, right? And it's internal issues and all those things. But it's just so interesting when when he was kind of sharing this the things that he was going through, just the interwovenness, right, of all the impacts, whether your your addiction is gambling, alcohol, substance, um chaos and destruction. It's it's all still there. So um very interesting and and just his path to recovery and and to giving back and and doing the work that he did and finally, you know, the last few years being able to get a pardon um because of all the change and and things that he went through.
SPEAKER_00So cool.
SPEAKER_03It's an amazing story. I wish we could have dug in a little deeper and and pulled a little more on some threads, but there just isn't there just isn't enough time in these these podcast episodes.
SPEAKER_00For sure. But yeah, let's get right to it. So uh help me out again.
SPEAKER_03He's the associate director of the Oklahoma Association for Problem Gambling and Gaming.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Ronnie Wakini, here it is. Here is our conversation with Ronnie.
SPEAKER_03Hi everyone, welcome to UVive Live. I'm Christina Cook.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Adam Lyons, and our guest today is the associate director of the Oklahoma Association Amy. Exactly. Ronnie Wachinny. Ronnie. Good morning. Welcome to WeVive Love. Thank you, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Very excited to have you. I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_03My boss at OAPG. And um, you know, I've heard bits and pieces of your story, but I haven't really heard the full thing. So this is this is gonna be um a really interesting conversation, I think. But the pieces I have heard are just kind of like wow. And and just knowing everything that you do in our state to help those impacted by gambling. I'm just yeah, really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you for taking the time today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, thank you. And uh I really appreciate the opportunity to share my story. I'm a man of many faces, I've lived many different lives, so just uh different chapters of the same life.
SPEAKER_00So for sure. So yeah, so I mean, let's uh let's dive in. Take us back to the beginning. I know that you know you you had your struggles um with a with a few different things, like many of us. So take us to the beginning. So, where do we want to start?
SPEAKER_01How far back do we want to go? Oh, yeah, where where are you from? Where let's go to the beginning. I am from Lawton, Oklahoma. I am half Comanche, half not. So I usually start my topics or my discussions out by that aspect. Um I grew up primarily with my native family. So my non-native family, which is my biological father's side, they they really didn't have anything to do with me. So I grew up with my mother, single mom, and my grandmother. And my in native culture, typically the older matriarchal female handles the raising of the younger generation. So I grew up primarily with my grandmother. Um, my mother, who she just recently passed away about a couple of months ago. So um want to give a little shout out to her. And uh I wouldn't be where I'm at right now without her influence and helping me after my incarceration, but we'll get to that point in time. So uh, as you said, I had many different struggles. Primarily, my early days started out with alcohol, marijuana, and then things progressed. So I can remember vividly the very first time I smoked a joint with a friend of mine and his older sister. And we grew up in a rural community right north of Lawton. So all my friends were on the native side, it was a native community. So um the very first time I smoked a joint, I was probably about 14 or 15, maybe 14. Wasn't exactly driving. So uh wasn't of driving age yet. But um, yeah, the first time I got high, I don't know if anybody in the audience remembers that it's like the heavens opened up and the lights shine down, and you hear the angels just go, and it was like, oh wow, I like this. So um if I was to do a genealogy, a family tree, a genogram, majority of the male figures, adult relatives throughout our generations have dealt with addiction issues. So I think I was I had a predisposition already there that there was an addictive gene that I received. And then once it doesn't matter if it's negative, positive, or neutral, I'm gonna take it to its full limit. So um got very immersed into the party lifestyle, and this was the mid to late 70s, early 80s. So I was part of that little hippie generation. I graduated high school in 1981. So my teenage years were in the late 70s, so I was uh the tail end of the the 60s and the the 70s in that hippie generation. So that's where all of my drug use and activity started, primarily with alcohol and weed, and then it progressed further into the into my 20s.
SPEAKER_00So just a real quick, you know, I drank, I smoked marijuana growing up a little bit. It never had that feeling for me as far as the heavens opening up, but when I gambled, when I gambled and I had my first win, yeah, yeah, the heavens opened up, the angels were singing. So I I know exactly what you're talking about. It just for me it was gambling.
SPEAKER_01Um but uh yeah, I've had those moments. One being I never did never hit a really significant jackpot, but when I did hit, and it was probably just a very minimal $500 or something like that, I was like, oh wow. And then the second time was the first time I did a line of methamphetamine. That was the epitome of all right there once meth was introduced into my life. That I just took that and ran with it. Much like those that have experimented with speed uppers, it gives you a boost of energy. You believe yourself to be more gregarious, outgoing. I thought I was funnier, I thought I was cuter, sexier. Um, you know, um, the only way I knew how to meet young ladies farther on was to say, hey, you want to get high, you want to smoke a joint, you want to smoke a bowl. So that's how I equated establishing a relationship. But um early on it was mostly just usage, experimental, of course, in the first early uh weeks, I would say, months, but then it went to regular use. And then it uh got pretty prevalent that it ruined my first relationship, drugs, alcohol, and methamphetamine primarily ruined my first relationship where I had my two biological sons from that relationship. And uh divorce followed suit rather quickly. I was not a good husband, and I can say that honestly now, just not not there, not as attentive or into the relationship as I should have been. But I had two great children from that relationship. Um, when we divorced, I took the oldest, Aaron, and he moved back to Oklahoma with me, and we were living in Pennsylvania at the time, and his younger brother, Travis, stayed with their mother in Pennsylvania. And um she remarried, and the world was a lot bigger back in the early 90s. There was no cell phone, no internet, so you know we couldn't just stay connected, uh, still working with landlines. So she remarried and they adopted Travis. So I lost contact with Travis, unfortunately. Um we do not have a close relationship as I do with the oldest Aaron, and he plays a very prominent uh point in my story as we progress along. So uh methamphetamine, alcohol, drugs took over the early to late 20s, early 30s.
SPEAKER_03So when did it start to progress into legal issues, like with drugs and these types of things?
SPEAKER_01Okay, now the methamphetamine, it uh like I said, it had taken over. It was that very, very big aha moment of where the heavens opened up and the light shined down. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Quick question. Is it me? And is it like just me loving breaking bad? Uh but is methamphetamine specifically kind of an issue in like the American Southwest and like you know, closer, like, you know, Oklahoma-ish? Is there a reason for that?
SPEAKER_01I I think it was because of the rural communities. Now, I will tell you when I was uh I had a couple of different chapters involving methamphetamine. The the last one involved manufacturing, and one of the key ingredients in manufacturing is anhydrous ammonia. And anhydrous ammonia is a fertilizer that is used out in growing crops. Um if you're in agricultural country, you will see the big white tanks, and they call them big white buffaloes because we're owed to the native community in Oklahoma. But uh the white tanks sitting out in the fields, that's contains the anhydrous ammonia, very poisonous, very volatile chemical, very dangerous to handle. So when you say main, you were making meth? Yeah, yeah. So that's that's the culmination of that meth empathy. I am sorry to interrupt. Please keep going. Please keep going. Yeah, okay. Um, let's see, where did we stop off at? Wife and I divorced, uh, moved back to Oklahoma with oldest Aaron. He was in kindergarten, I believe, when we moved back. And this had to be the late 90s. For a period there, I quit everything because I was a single father and I didn't drink, I didn't do anything, um, worked, um, and provided, tried to be a uh a good provider. Well, boredom is one of the boredom and loneliness, two volatile enemies in anybody's life. I mean, those things, combination, will make you do all kinds of crazy nonsense things. So I got bored, lonely, and of course, where did I know how to meet women was in the bar or find some kind of companionship. So I slowly started gravitating back toward going out on the weekends. And then um in rural Oklahoma, where I grew up, we had a couple of houses right next to each other. One was my grandmother's, she left that one to me, and the next one right next door was my mom. So I had babysitters right there. Um, so when I wanted to go out and start doing crazy things, Aaron would stay with his mom. I mean, his my mom. And uh the methamphetamine use had declined to almost to zero during that period. And then a friend of mine, I was in the bar one night. He pulled out some aluminum foil and he started, he was the bartender there slash owner son. So I started hanging out there after hours when he's closing out the till and doing all of the counts. And we would open up the pool table and shoot some pool and just sit there and talk for a little bit while he's doing his shutdown. And uh one evening he pulls out some aluminum foil. And the first few times I had seen it, I was like, no, I know, I know how I'll get, you know, I know, I know how it affects me, and I know how crazy I can get. So I declined, and then once again, that perfect storm of whatever it was loneliness, boredom, whatever. Um, one evening he offered, and I'm like, okay. And from that moment on, it was just it started out once again, just casual use. Then I was at the bar on the weekends, then it progressed to um not just Friday, Saturday night, it was Wednesday night. And then next thing I know, it's Monday through Sunday or you know, all week long. And I had worked, was working multiple jobs at that time, and uh slowly but surely quit one job, quit one job, quit one job, and then next thing I know, there are no jobs. So um I went from just casual use supporting my habit with paycheck money to not having any money, to now how am I gonna support my habit? Oh wow, well, I know a few people who get quantity. So then I will just grab a little bit, save a little bit for myself, and sell a little bit. So I went from casual use to amateur drug dealer. And then there, I can remember these very clearly. There was a radio ad that ran all the time that stated that thenphetamine is easily manufactured, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was a PSA warning, and I went, oh, wow. Easily manufactured, huh? Okay.
SPEAKER_03PSA warning to warn you was just like, huh. Yeah, and I'm like, this is easy.
SPEAKER_01There it is, right there. The light bulb went off, and I'm like, okay. So and an experimental stage started out where the internet was becoming very more pronounced. Um, it was still dial up back then, so you still had to dial up. So I was doing my research on how this is done and how this is manufactured, and I started getting some key ingredients. And my cousin, who has since she was my, we grew up together, so we were very close all through. Um, she was my running buddy. We were the dynamic duo. Um, we were um drug users, drug dealers, and she was better at drug dealing than I was because she had always had some and money. So she financed the experimental stage of the manufacturing portion of the methamphetamine story. So, first of all, it starts with casual use, then it goes on to regular use, then it goes on to acquisition because you're drug dealing now. There's so there's a little bit of money coming in, and there's a little bit of power and control with that drug dealing because you say who you're gonna sell to, when, how much, and everybody wants to be your buddy. And then when you have that great big chunk quantity, more and more addictions built upon each other, and more and more dire consequences come with that. So the bigger the quantity, the bigger the consequences.
SPEAKER_03So when you say more and more addictions, is it just more addiction to the the thrill of it, more addiction to the money, more addiction to the control, the power? Like it's on top of everything else, the alcohol, you know, your own use. So it I I can see where it can continue to build and become this like thing, and I can see where it can just become this machine that you know, no matter you know, that gets harder and harder to stop.
SPEAKER_01Once that train starts rolling down the track, it is uh full-blown moving, and the more you have, the bigger and faster that train is going.
SPEAKER_00Um so and were you able to hide this from people, or was this kind of like did people know that Ronnie Ronnie was he was fast?
SPEAKER_03Ronnie was the guy to go get, was there like an RV park somewhere and somebody came out of it?
SPEAKER_01Almost the RV was stationary, yeah. But it was it was the rural house out in the country. But breaking bad, yeah. Uh absolutely. But yeah, that addiction is just the power, the control, the lifestyle. Um, like I said, everybody you become everybody's friend. Everybody uh wants to hang out with you, they know where to get a stash at. And um I hit it really well. Back to Adam's question. Yeah. So there weren't any like physical. No, no.
SPEAKER_03I it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01I um I hit it well. Uh I'm a two-time convicted felon. And when I tell people that, they're going like, no way, yeah. I mean, it's not stamped on my forehead or anything. I think I was like, Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm a two-time convicted felon, and uh, but I hit it well. My family didn't know. You can only hide it for so long, though, because then just because of the sheer traffic and the sheer craziness that comes along with that lifestyle, you're gonna attract attention. First, it starts with family and they become concerned, and then next thing you know, with all of the foot traffic, and if you're selling drugs, there's just gonna be traffic around your house. And then you start gaining the attention of law enforcement and legal authority. So yeah. But hit it well, hit it for a long time. Um, then it there was it got so crazy that there was no hiding it.
SPEAKER_00So, what were the what were the events that essentially led to your incarceration? Okay, let's see.
SPEAKER_01Um a lot of traffic at the house. I mean, all hours of the night. And I lived outside of Lawton in a very rural area. At the time it was rural, not so much anymore. Um, but it was right off the highway. And then there was just all kinds of traffic coming and going. And law enforcement would stake out my house. And I knew it, I could see them. They would drive by at all times during the day and night. If it was night, they would hit my house with a spotlight. And when you're doing methamphetamine, you're up all night, so you see that spotlight hit you. Like, okay, they're watching, and they had come in and kicked my door in maybe once, maybe twice. And at the time in the drug world, you're up and you're down, you're up and you're down. It's very, you know, very sporadic. Sometimes you have a lot, then there are times where you have nothing. Sometimes you have a lot of money, and sometimes you have nothing. Um, that's the kind of drug dealer I was. There are others that say, well, I always had money, you know, I had like, well, maybe, but I wasn't like that. So fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, when they came in, they caught me at times where there was nothing. Um, there were always kind of glassware and paraphernalia around, but nothing to make it stick. One time. We needed some supplies. So I thought, well, let's go to Lawton and we'll we'll uh go get what we need to make a batch. And on the way, the vehicle that we were in ran out of gas. Go figure. Borrow vehicle and there's no gas in it run out of gas. So I have to walk back to the gas station. And I'm like, oh, geez, no cell phones at this time. Remember pagers on the highway. Um and uh I have to walk back. As I'm walking back, there is law enforcement has a car pulled over. So I kind of skirt him and I go down into the ditch and I go way around. Well, I had a little bit of, I think I had a little meth on me at the time, and I think I had a joint and I had it in a shirt pocket. So then um I get close to a phone at a convenience store, and I look across the highway, and there's another, there's uh American Legion hut right across the highway there. So I run across the highway. It's a four-lane highway to going, it's major interstate. So there's traffic, and I'm not gonna just kind of casually walk because they're coming 65, 70, 80 miles an hour. So I run across the first two lanes, hit the median, come up the other side, run across the other two lanes, hit the bar ditch, go through the bobwire fence, and I'm from the country, so I've been going through bobwire fences my whole life. So, you know, just kind of duck through it and I start walking up. And as soon as I get across the bobwire fence, I look and law enforcement was coming the other way, and he kind of circled and hit the exit. And I'm like, okay, well, they had a substation at the convenience store. So I thought, okay, well, uh, he's going over there, and I didn't think anything of it. And I come up from behind the American Legion Hut and I walk around the corner. And as soon as I get around into the front to go in the front door, he pulls into the parking lot and he goes, Oh, hey, you come here. Why are you running? And I'm like, I'm not running. I'm just gonna use the cell phone. I mean, I'm gonna use the payphone here, no cell phones. He goes, okay. He goes, well, let me see your driver's license. So I give him my driver's license and he runs my name. And I had a, I think at the time it was a $35 hot check that I didn't pick up, but with cash somewhere. So I had a bench warrant for my arrest. So my first felony conviction was the result of a $30 hot check that I did not pick up. What's a hot check? What do you mean a hot check? Insufficient funds, a return check. Oh, okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03For $30, you got a felony.
SPEAKER_01Very minimal. You know, I I could have picked it up, but I'm like, at the time, you're like, I'm not gonna worry about that. So didn't think anything of it. And then he goes, okay. He goes, so empty your pockets on the front of the car. And I went, oh crap. So I empty my pockets. So I did, I put my shirt there and he starts patting me down, and then he pulls it out and he goes, Oh, what's this? And he goes, Oh, what's this? So I had a my first felony conviction was a possession of CDS. So I had a small amount of methamphetamine and paraphernalia. I had a pipe and a joint. So uh I got a two-year suspended sentence on that, all but six months time served. So I didn't really go to the facility on that charge. I did uh six months in the county jail and uh was released on at two years suspended. And uh you would think that would slow somebody down or get someone's attention. Um that was just a slap on the wrist, you know, it's just a slap on the hand, and I'm like, okay. Um county jail's no fun, but uh yeah, that didn't deter me that time. And uh immediately as soon as I was released from that six months of being in the county jail, I was at the drug dealer's house not more than 30 minutes later. So I went directly from the county jail to a friend of mine's house who I knew had drugs and usually had some. And it started all back over right there.
SPEAKER_00Did would you say that when you were making it towards the end, was that uh fuel like were you still addicted to actually using, or were you starting to get addicted to just like the lifestyle of being the boss and being the you know, being like the criminal, or was that all just so you could get high?
SPEAKER_01It was all just to get high, yeah. Okay, all it was to get high. I was not a very good drug dealer, like I said. Um and when I started manufacturing, uh it I was more for personal use, but it it didn't look that way in court. It didn't play that way out in court. So uh after that first felony conviction, that's when the manufacturing really was really starting to take off. Early on on the radar, and then I really on radar after that. That's when they started kicking in my doors. Um, so I received my first felony conviction, um, probably 97, 98. So it was I was only out maybe a year after that first felony conviction, and they kicked my door in. And when they kicked it in the second time, they found everything. So there was everything enough for them to charge me with manufacturing.
SPEAKER_03And um, you were probably still on the the two-year permission or defer. So which makes it even worse, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So second felony. So um didn't have any money for a street lawyer, and so I had to use a court-appointed lawyer. And those in the audience that may have been in trouble before know that you don't ever get to see your court-appointed attorney until the day of whatever day you're going to court, whether it's preliminary or you're going to trial, and you don't know. He's gonna come in and talk to you for a few minutes, and that's it. So uh he did talk to me. He goes, Okay, they're charging you with manufacturing. He said that they're gonna the laws changed because it used to be where you would get good time, but then they because manufacturing was becoming more and more prevalent, and they were trying to cut down, so they were becoming down very heavy on those that were charged. Um, and so my sentence was gonna be pretty hefty. He goes, they're gonna go for a life sentence, which is 45 years for manufacturing. Yeah. And I'm like, no way, no way. Okay, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00I'm not trying to laugh. I'm not laughing, but it's just your your personality is like it's just so awesome. And like, once again, you hear all the time of like when people who are in recovery that and they say it to me, they say it to Christina, like, we can't picture you like in a casino, we can't picture you as an addict. Like, I I cannot picture Ronnie from Oklahoma as Walter White. I just can't do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they painted the door, or they tried to paint that picture in court, you know. We were the I was the kingpin of Comanche County, Southwest Oklahoma, but in reality, it was not like that. You know, I'm just making meth to to stay hot. Yeah, and then I shared with a few people, and then you know, I shared with too many people, and I never don't really didn't have a lot of money because I gave a lot of it away. You know, it's just let's it's just a big party, that's all it was. But I wasn't portrayed that way in court. So it wasn't going to be.
SPEAKER_00So what was the actual how how much time did you actually I uh I did a took a plea bargain?
SPEAKER_01He goes, uh the best I can do for you is a 15-year trafficking sentence. He goes, that's 15 years as opposed to 45. He goes, if you get the life sentence, he goes, you could possibly do 15 years on that 45. You have to do mandatory a minimum of one-third or something like that. And the fine was 50,000. Or you take the trafficking charge, which is um, they have enough to get you for trafficking because you have all of the ingredients to make it, and if they were to powder it out or make it, they would there would equate to this much methamphetamine. So they're gonna the least they'll come down to is a trafficking, which you do a mandatory one-third before you're eligible for parole, um, which would have been five years, and the fine is cut in half from 50,000 to 25,000. So the lesser of the two evils, um, they have you, you know, when you're in trouble, they have you over the barrel. So you're gonna either if if you want out of the county jail, and I had said earlier, county is terrible, if you want out of the county jail as quickly as possible, you know you're gonna get some time. You want to get to a prison yard where you have some freedom. So I took the 15-year trafficking and went in and went in in November of 2001, paroled out in July of 2006, did about five and a half years behind the fence. So um, yeah. The gambling aspect took over and that last right before the arrest. Of course, you know, when you're high up all night, and where are you gonna go when you're up 24 hours a day, four, five, six days in a row, where is there to go? So started going to the casinos, and they were just now becoming prevalent in Oklahoma. They weren't there weren't not like they are now, where they're on you know, five within a 50-mile radius. They were there were there, but they were pretty sparse. So there was a few ride-arounds. So that's where the gambling came in, and uh primarily just went to the casino to hang out and uh either make a drop or make a little bit of money, and then in turn put that into the machine. And once again, the addiction, the addictive personality takes over, and gambling started becoming a bit more of a habit than any kind of recreational use.
SPEAKER_03And did you gamble gambling in prison?
SPEAKER_01That's what I was just gonna say. Absolutely, yeah. You there are two things, there are some rules when you're going in, and I had uh met a individual while I was in the county jail, and he came in and he was from the facility and he was doing some more court proceedings. So he came into the cell, and I had known him, and uh, so we're sitting there talking, and he's going, So you got some time, yeah, yeah. He goes, Okay, so rule number one don't gamble, don't get into debt, don't borrow anything from anybody, don't go to anybody's store, and other inmates will have a little commissary store where they've stocked up and they will charge like the like the um the payday loans or anything like that, they're gonna charge high interest for anything that you buy. So, you know, there's some rules that you try to abide by. Um, going into prison is like TV, but it's not like TV. I mean, it's kinda, but not really. Um, I didn't really have any problems in prison. As long as you mind your own business, you don't put your nose into other places that it's not supposed to be, you know, get into debt, you don't gamble, you know, you just want to go do your time. That's okay. You will get left alone. But if you want to attract attention, you'll attract the wrong kind of attention.
SPEAKER_03So when you when you came out, did you pick up gambling again?
SPEAKER_01When I was released in July of 2006, uh, it took a while. I was uh didn't quite go back. I had to re-acclimate to the free world. And I was only gone five years, and there are people who have gone 20, even plus longer. And when I went in, um, cell phones were just starting. Um, they were the big flip phones, you know, they were still the brig. Oh, you had a bag phone. I had a bag phone that I plugged into the cigarette lighter in the in the car. I thought I was big time then, and pagers were highly popular. So I come out and then there are little flip phones, and then there are text messaging, and my first few text messages were all one line because I couldn't figure out how to space with the little, you know, on the little flip phone. So yeah, I'm becoming re-acclimated. So uh it took a while, and I slowly started gravitating back toward going to the bars when I knew I wasn't supposed to. And where is the best place to go drink and stay out all night is the casino show. Yeah, to answer your question, I grew up slowly gravitated back toward the casino and that uh gambling style.
SPEAKER_00Even though it was only five years, what a time 01 to 06, a lot happened in those five years. So, like, yeah, that was uh there was a lot of technology that happened, a lot of, you know, I mean, you went in like right after 9-11, so like there's all the heightened security, and yeah. Um, so so so you do five and a half years in prison. Uh-huh. And that still doesn't like where did you do any uh was there any treatment in there for addiction? Did you at this point are you acknowledging that you are addicted? Once you come out, you're still going drinking, you're going gambling. Like, where is Ronnie's mindset? Like yeah, where's where's where is his self-awareness? Does he have any yet?
SPEAKER_01Okay. When you're behind the fence, uh the you go through the five stages of grief. You know, you go through the denial, the anger. Oh, um lawyer screwed me. Um uh they just caught me when I was just having fun. You know, I wasn't hurting anybody. I'm just trying to get high. And then slowly you come around to acceptance. And then for those that get better, now those that stay the same, they they don't ever get out of that anger or animosity or bargaining period. So um I came to acceptance and I finally, yeah, I put myself there. Um, I put myself there. And it wasn't my mom, it wasn't my family, it wasn't my circumstances, it was all my decisions that I made that put myself there. Um, let's backtrack a little bit to Aaron, my oldest. Um, he was 13 at the time. Right, I got busted right before his 13th birthday, two weeks before his 13th birthday. And uh through all of this craziness, remember there were two houses right next to each other. While craziness was going on at house number one, my mom was right next door where it was sane and civil. So Aaron started spending more and more time with grandma, and we call her Nana, everybody called her Nana. So he started spending more and more time up there, and slowly all of the clothes out of his room and everything went up to his spare room and in mom's house, and he spended all of his time up there. So I'm busted in 01. He goes, this is two weeks before he goes to his summer visit with his mother in Pennsylvania. So I get busted, and then he's off on his summer trip to spend the summer with his mom in Pennsylvania. Um gets a letter or calls my mom, his nana, and says that he's just gonna stay with his mom up there. Of course, understand. Um, so he ends up staying with his mother in Pennsylvania. And while I'm on the yard, I get a legal letter one afternoon. So I go open it up and it's from an attorney in Pennsylvania. She's filing for custody, obviously. So can't fight it, can't do anything about it, just have to sign it and send it back. So I sign it and sign over custody. And he ends up spending his junior high and high school years with his mom. Um I get a quite a few letters. We exchange some correspondence through my incarceration. And um, this is for those individuals who have gotten into trouble and have innocent little ones. Throughout his whole high school years, I was in prison. So I parole out in 06, and he just right after he graduates high school. Those of us who are addicts and who have destroyed our lives and those with our children, we want it re-established on our time. We want to pick up right where we left off. We want everything fixed back the way it was, and it doesn't work that way. So even though I was out, there was a lot of anger and hurt, obviously. So a lot of anger, hurt, and animosity, I would imagine. And I would send letters, call, and he was like, I'm doing okay. Uh, you know, I'll come up and visit, uh, you know, and he would go, no, dad, no, that's okay. Yeah, that's not right now. I'm in school, I'm in college, you know, and things. I'm like, okay. So I just backed off the pedal a little bit, and then I told him one day, I said, okay, whenever you're ready to come down, you let me know, and I'll book you a plane ticket and have it. You just let me know your dates, where you want to fly out from. You can give me all your itinerary. So this was probably about 2015. Now, mind you, I got out in 06, maybe 14 or so, but it took another seven, eight years before we reconnected. And he calls up one day and he goes, Hey dad. I go, Okay, yeah. He goes, I want to come down for Thanksgiving. And I said, Okay. I said, Where do you let me know? And he goes, Okay, so he gave me all the information. I hung the phone up and I'm in working now at uh Comanche Nation Prevention and Recovery in Lawton. So I go right to the computer, da-da-da-da-da, type it in, book it, I call him right back immediately, and I said, Okay, here's your confirmation number. When I talk to individuals in recovery groups, the first thing I tell them is when you have little ones or anybody involved, and you make a promise, you better keep that promise. Now, had I not done that, had I not been able in the position to provide the plane ticket and everything and all that round trip, our relationship would not have been restored to where it's at now. I would have been back to square one of lying, stealing, cheating, all of that, you know, everything that comes with that unhealthy lifestyle.
SPEAKER_00So this was the first time that you guys saw each other in person? Yeah, yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_01So when I was arrested, he was 13. When we reconnect, he's mid-mid-20s. Oh, upper mid-20s. Standing in an airport in Oklahoma City, waiting for him, and not knowing am I gonna recognize him? And I'm looking and I'm seeing young men come up, and I'm like, is that him? Is that him now? No. Then when I seen him, I'm like, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. Um what was what was that like? What was that moment like if you don't mind like talking about both of you?
SPEAKER_01Tearful, joyful, regretful, so much time lost, uh, can't ever get it back. Um, just so much of our lives separated, and yeah, just I tell people there is no high, there's no jackpot, there is no amount of drugs that will take away or take the place of any time away from your loved ones. There's not not worth it. Not worth it. The casino's not worth it, the stash is not worth it, the alcohol is not worth it, the bar is not worth it. But we don't see it at the time because the the addictive side is so seductive that it tells you, eh, you don't need anything but me. That relationship that you build with that inanimate object takes the place of that real life interpersonal connection with your loved ones, whether it's the slot machine, the glass pipe, or you see alcoholics will get the bottle on a hot day and it's all frosty and they'll get in and go, ah, you know, they're thinking they're cooling themselves off. But yeah, I'm getting, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we're running out of time, but uh, we got to get to so bring us up to speed as far as you know, what do you what's your relationship with everything now? You mentioned that you worked in recovery, so obviously we know you work in recovery now. When did you get into recovery yourself? When did you uh start working for recovery? How did that all happen?
SPEAKER_01I started the recovery process while I was incarcerated and I paroled out in 06. At the time I was incarcerated, I wrote a letter to Comanche Nation and said, Hey, I'm gonna be here for X amount of years. They offer college classes. Will you pay for books and tuition? I got a letter back that says, yes, you're eligible. We'll pay for books intuition, or we'll we'll fund you. And I thought they were just gonna pay for books intuition. Well, I saw I enroll in classes at Rose State, and I get called into the college coordinator's office, and he goes, Hey, you got a check? And I'm like, Okay. He's looking at me real weird. He goes, You want to you got a check? I'm like, okay, yes, books intuition. He goes, No, you got a check. Like, okay, because you want to see it? I'm like, okay. So they funded me fully, like I was on the free world. So I got the full college funding. And when you're in prison, you know, you have having $2,500 coming every semester is a lot of money. And you don't let anybody know. So, long story short, I started enrolling and took classes there. Um, I needed to finish an algebra class before I received my associate's degree, and I paroled out prior to that. So I'm like, oh crap. So immediately as soon as I hit the streets, I went to Cameron, enrolled. I finished and I got my associate's degree in December of 06. I got my bachelor's degree. And in 2011, I got my master's degree from Cameron. That addictive personality, I took all of that energy that I used to use for negative and turned it into the positive. And I got my license to become an alcohol and drug counselor in 2012. So that's my recovery starter side of this. Yeah. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_03And then you kind of continued your path forward to focus on gambling because you are a IGCG, right? Which is an international.
SPEAKER_01When I came out of prison, I didn't know what kind of job am I going to get. That was my major scare. Um, they're not gonna be knocking down my door saying, you know how to make methamphetamine, come work for us. So I'm like, what am I gonna do? Everybody I ever hung out with did drugs and alcohol. So I thought, well, I'll be a counselor. So that's how I got into the recovery portion of my life. And uh met a young lady, and we have been married now 16 years. Um, she never did drink, do drugs, or anything or smoking, totally different from all of the individuals I was acquainted with in my prior life. Um she had a young lady that worked on her staff at her place of employment. So when Aaron comes down, he meets this young lady and they hit it off. So let's go back to that story of with Aaron. He uh he uh calls up one day and he says, Hey dad, I want to move back to Oklahoma. I'm like, okay, cool. We got an extra room, we got space, come on down, I can get you a job. So he comes back, moves in with us, and eventually marries a young lady out of Shawnee. And then he finishes up his master's degree at uh uh UCO in Edmund, and they now live in Denver and doing really well. And I have a little granddaughter up there. We have 10 grandchildren total, but she's she's up there with them. Um March of 2024, a couple of years ago, I uh always was aware of the pardon process. And during my work with recovery and working with gamblers and those that are in trouble, I thought, well, I'm gonna apply for a pardon one of these days. So just to see the process so I can be well aware and well-versed on how this process works. And I just kind of put it on the back burner. And my father-in-law calls my wife one afternoon, and it's coming up on one of his like 80th birthday or 78th, 79th, one of those numbers of birthdays. And for his birthday, he wants to take the family on a cruise. So four-day cruise to Cozumel, and I'm like, okay, sure. And then I'm like, oh, my heart goes, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. You're gonna take a drug trafficker out of the country to South America, bring him back through customs, and I have PTSD with any kind of security just because uh yeah, you deal with law enforcement and drugs, and when they find something, it's like, oh crap. So when you take a cruise and you're on a closed loop cruise, meaning you depart from return to the same port, you can go with your birth certificate and your driver's license. And I'm like, no, I'm gonna get my passport and I'm gonna apply for the pardon. So that kind of was the kick in the pants for me to fill out the paperwork. And uh, well, lo and behold, Governor Kevin Stitt signed my pardon on March 11th, 2024. So I'm completely pardoned on my two felonies. I got a passport, so convicted felons can get a passport, although you are bound by laws that your country you're traveling to. But there's nothing prohibiting convicted felons from getting a passport. And then during this time of recovery, I met Wiley Harwell. And we were always at conferences and acquainted when I was at Comanche Nation. And I told him one day, I said, Hey, if you ever need help up, uh, you know, if you ever need any kind of help, I'm I'm available. I'll come work in Norman. So call him up one day, he goes, Hey, stop by my office on your way home. So that was in 2016. And uh I uh stopped in, he goes, Yep, I got some money. He goes, You want to come to work? I said, sure. So I left Comanche Nation Prevention and Recovery after 10 years. Came and worked with the Oklahoma Association on Problem Gambling and Gaming as the associate director. And I've been here now going on 11 years.
SPEAKER_00So that's so awesome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I had no idea you were there that long.
SPEAKER_01From prison 06 to yeah, to sit recovery for 20 years. To recovery in 20 years, I sit current chair of the OBLADC, that's the El Clama Board of Licensed Alcohol and Drug Counselors. So not only did Kevin Stitz sign my pardon, he appointed me to that board. Wow. Yeah, shout out to Kevin Stitz. No, just this is all through his office, but yeah, he's the one who has the final signature for him.
SPEAKER_00Now, obviously, you have this you know amazing scope of all of these different addictions, um, specifically gambling. Like, what are some of the similarities and differences, not only in your experiences, but through your years of counseling? Like, when people say like addiction is addiction, like which I believe, like, do you do you believe that? Or are there some are there some differences?
SPEAKER_01Yes, in that the symptoms are very similar. Yeah. Um, with alcohol or and or drugs or any of the illegal substances, there's some tolerance there. So the uh the mind has changed, the dopamine rush, and it takes larger and larger amounts to get to the same level of your high. Very similar with gambling. It starts out very social, occasional, you know, with just a few dollars, and then the tolerance builds up, and it takes more and more and larger amounts of money to get the same level of dopamine rush and excitement. Um, so there's that tolerance buildup, there's that lying to family members, there's those relationships and opportunities that are lost. So, in that aspect, it's very similar in that the symptoms are there. However, the one thing different with gamblers is that there is always some hope that the next dollar could be the one dollar that's gonna hit and give me up to a 20, which will get me up to 100, which will get me up to that jackpot of 15,000. With drugs, it's not like that. That last little joint is not gonna magically increase to maybe 10, 20, and you know, it's gonna get used. So with gamblers, there's that hope aspect that you're trying to overcome and that different skewed relationship with money in that uh it takes on a whole different meaning. You know, there's gamblers have different methods of arithmetic, addition and subtraction. Money becomes skewed a little bit.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's so very much so. Um as we're kind of finalizing this episode, um we'd like to always ask this one question to all of our guests. What gives you hope in the work that you're doing and in this space?
SPEAKER_01So, what gives me hope? Um, the young lady that I married, she had four daughters when I met her, and the twins were probably about in second grade. They're now in their early to mid-twenties. Um my relationship with the girls and their husbands and my oldest have produced, like I said, ten grandkids. Um they're my light and hope now. When I look and see things through their little eyes, it is very magical. Um, my wife, her daughters have never seen me at my worst with drugs and alcohol or gambling. Aaron, my oldest, my biological. Unfortunately, he was there in those younger days. So he did see me at my worst. But none of the little ones, none of the grandkids, they have seen me yet. They've never seen me with a beer, never seen me with a joint or any drugs or you know, losing money at the casino, being broke, going to the pawn shop, having to scrimp and save.
SPEAKER_03So yeah. And I just met I have met your lovely wife in the world.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, she has a beautiful singing voice.
SPEAKER_01Well, absolutely, yeah. She was uh, like I said, uh, she's been in theater her whole high school life and involved in the choir and did some little gospel groups outside of the church, and yeah, very, very excellent, outstanding voice.
SPEAKER_00Very now, just to clarify, and just a quick follow-up question, because that was amazing what you just said. But specifically, when it comes to the gambling landscape and just all the work that we're all trying to do, what part of like what gives you hope for the future of like the gambling recovery landscape?
SPEAKER_01That it is becoming more and more pronounced. It is becoming more publicly aware. Um, we see more and more individuals coming into the counseling agencies across the state and nationally, and we see the peers coming up more and more involved with those that have been in recovery, been there and done that, are becoming more and more acceptable and widely used. And there's not a lot of money yet nationally being dedicated or locally at the state level toward problem gambling, but it's getting there. It's getting there. And with the new prediction markets and all of those that are popping up, it's just gonna continue to get worse and worse and worse. But my hope public awareness is being raised, and the financial support hopefully will come with that. And those that are utilizing the services and finding out that there is increasing. So yeah. Such as e vibe. Let's throw e-vibe out there, let's drop it. You know, a few years ago, e vibe even on the radar, and here we are. Things have blown up to uh very successful early stages. So yeah, I mean, and want to say Oklahoma was the first state to jump on, I think. That's right. First state, and now I don't know. Shout out to Wiley. Shout out to Wiley and OAP G G. And how many states are signed up now? How many?
SPEAKER_00I think we got like what, like almost, I think 16 by the end of this month, maybe 16 like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that that's what the young people, you guys that are coming up that have been there, done that. I'm I'm 53 now, so I'm I'm coming. So you guys are the the younger generation is becoming more and more aware and more cognizant of what's going on in the landscape in the addicted field in general. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you so much, Ronnie. We appreciate it. I mean, I wish we had more time because the story is so encompassing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we we uh I I was just thinking the same thing. Like this is there's no way we can talk to Ronnie for an hour. I mean, there's just so much more that we wanted to get to, but but it was it was amazing. And I I just you know, the fact that you know, there's so many people who are are are too I don't want to use the word afraid, but people are just you know hesitant to share their story. But the fact that you shared what you shared today, I mean it's just amazing, and it's it's a gift for people out there who are in similar spots to hear your story. It might give them hope to to maybe uh you know get off that path somehow, you know. So it's it's amazing.
SPEAKER_03Especially what you've gone through and how you were able to make such amazing changes that not only gave back but built rebuilt relationships and you know just to be able to move from that space to where you are now, you know. Not and I it certainly I know wasn't easy, and I know you had a lot of hardship in between all of that, but um, I just really appreciate you sharing your story and and the hope that's entwined through it all. So uh thank you so much, Ronnie.
SPEAKER_00Next time we're gonna talk about music, he's a big music guy. He's got tickets from concerts he went to.
SPEAKER_02I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. We can talk about the music aspect of addiction and how it ruined everything and you know, kind of increased everything at the same time. Next time, next time.
SPEAKER_00All right, Ronnie, thank you so much for being on Evive Lab. We really appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. Y'all have a wonderful Friday afternoon.
SPEAKER_03You too.