Evive Live

Kriston Vanhorn | Problem Gambling Help Network of West Virginia

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0:00 | 47:41

Adam and Christina are joined by Kriston Vanhorn, Program Coordinator for the Problem Gambling Help Network of West Virginia. Kriston shares what problem gambling looks like in West Virginia, why calls to the state's helpline continue to rise, and how their 24/7, human-centered support model is making a difference through treatment funding, peer support, financial counseling, and long-term follow-up. Beyond resources and recovery services, the conversation takes a deeper turn into identity, burnout, and the importance of building a life that extends beyond addiction. 

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🔗 RESOURCES & LINKS
🟢 Evive — Digital support for gambling behavior change
🌐 https://www.getevive.com/
📱 Download the app: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/evive-gambling-support/id6450926060

🟣 The Broke Girl Society with Christina Cook — Community and recovery support for women
🌐 https://thebrokegirlsociety.com/ 
🎙️Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-broke-girl-society-podcast/id1575593868
🎙️Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/74DP23EzfR6WPpPMLYq45x
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@thebrokegirlsociety

🎧 The Modern Meeting Podcast with Adam Lyons — Gambling recovery, real talk
🌐 https://themodernmeeting.com/ 
🎙️ Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-modern-meeting/id1779060982
🎙️ Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/1jMSSKkadnvzbvZl33dzZc
📺 YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@ModernMeeting
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🔔 Subscribe to Evive Live for new episodes featuring the clinicians, researchers, advocates, and people in recovery who are changing how we think about gambling harm.
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Evive Live is produced by Evive, a digital health platform dedicated to gambling behavior change. Views expressed by guests are their own.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to You Vive Live. I'm Christina Cook.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm Adam Lyons. And we just had an awesome guest, Kristen Van Horn. She's the program coordinator for the uh problem gambling help network of West Virginia.

SPEAKER_01

I mean fantastic conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Her and I are very aligned on recovery and recovery views, and it just I could literally see I could see the heart emojis like circling your head as she was talking several times during the conversation. I mean, yeah, you guys are cut from the same cloth, and I mean that as a compliment to both of you. Like it's awesome. She was she was great.

SPEAKER_01

I and I love how like one of the amazing things about West Virginia. I mean, wonderful people, wonderful country. Um, but the amount of resources, they have a very comprehensive resource program. I mean, financial counseling, peer support, treatment, and all like even additional, if you need blockers, things like that, like they are very comp comprehensive on how they they offer help, and it's at no cost. And that's yeah, pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_00

No, and I think you know, talking to Kristen in Nashville and talking to her today, and also, you know, shout out to Mariselle and Nick. You know, the thing I love about this team is that they're looking for solutions, right? They're keeping it positive, they're looking to move forward. And I'm guilty, we all know, I'm guilty of, you know, getting hung up on where we can do better or where we're struggling. But I just I love the energy that they put out, which is that this is what we do, here's where we could get better, but like let's let's keep going. Let's keep going. Let's not get hung up on that. And and I think that that is so important, and it literally needs to be injected into the veins of every single person working in this space right now.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, absolutely, and and you're right. Sometimes we can focus and you know, prioritize what what we aren't doing right or where we're lacking in something, and we don't put enough focus on what's in front of us, what is working, where are the supports? This is happening, you know. So exactly fantastic conversation to kind of bring it back in.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. So let's get to it. Here is our conversation with Kristen Van Horn. Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of EVOV Live. My name is Adam Lines. I'm here with Christina Cook, and our guest today, along with being an amazing karaoke singer, she is the program coordinator for the Problem Gambling Help Network of West Virginia. Please welcome to evive live, Kristen Van Horn. Kristen, hello.

SPEAKER_02

Hey, hello, welcome. Welcome to me, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

Great to have you.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, the honor, honor. This is such an honor to be here and get to speak with you guys today. Oh, come on, come on.

SPEAKER_00

Love that though. Um, so yeah, tell us um, tell us who you are, tell us what you do. Let's start there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So um you you nailed it um minus the karaoke, but uh, but uh, so my name is Kristen, of course, and I'm the program coordinator for the Problem Gambling Health Network of West Virginia. And that is a mouthful, but it is something that I have loved doing. Uh, been with the program, it'll be five years in September. So uh interesting enough, I joined five years ago after I was working in foster care. I did that for about six years and loved it, was in leadership, had some really great experiences, but I was experiencing severe burnout. And that's also a lot of the story that I share with others and in the community. But I needed to get away because it was taking away my life, my energy, my soul. So I thought I still want to do something that helps people, but I wanted that nine to five kind of vibe. And so I wanted to come in, go out, be done. And so I started for the Problem Gambling Help Network after Jennifer, Davis Walton, Lisa Lewis, and Mariselle Bernardo, who are incredible women within the program, took a chance on me and said, Hey, you know, let's let's see what you got. And so I started answering the lines. That was my my first job as the helpline coordinator. And I always say, although I joined as a way to figure out where I wanted to go with my life, the joke was on me that I found exactly what I wanted to do with my life because it was very quick when I realized how much I resonated with our callers, how much I understood that chaos is comfort, stuck in a cycle, stuck in a loop. And so it just grew a passion and a purpose for my own self, I'm gonna say, a little selfishly, because it was some intrinsic rewards within that. But more than anything, outwardly of just knowing how unserved underserved the community is for those who are experiencing gambling-related harm can be. And so I just fell in love with the program, with the mission. And so last year, just so happens a coordinator position opened up and I felt I was ready to take that step. And Marisol was crazy enough to say, yeah, let's do it. So it's been a fantastic journey that has just grown that passion and then admiration and love ever since.

SPEAKER_00

Love that. Now, you you describe yourself as um, you know, a person in recovery. So, how did your own recovery journey play a role in pursuing this current position you have?

SPEAKER_02

That I think is a pretty layered question in a sense of there's a several different avenues that kind of led into that. So I mentioned kind of experiencing burnout and really struggling with identity and who I was. I was actively attending AA meetings. So I am in recovery from alcohol, but I was still kind of struggling with a sense of identity outside of that, outside of my recovery, outside of my job, right? Because at the time I was working 80, 90 hours a week. It really just depended. And so I knew that that needed to be focused on a little bit more. And so before I even applied for the coordinator position for problem gambling, I'm grateful that I had enough mindset to know something is not going right up here. And I was losing all sense of self and identity. And so while I was going to AA, I was also trying to find a therapist, which I eventually found. But I knew I at the core of who I was, I was a helper. I feel that that is something that I have been ever since I can remember. And so while I was looking for an alternative job, I knew I still wanted to help people. And one of the things that I really felt led to do as well was just be surrounded by people who understood without having to explain. And that was something in my previous career, um, alcohol was very much a big part of our events, which is fine. You know, I'm in my own recovery, the world doesn't stop because I have a problem, right? And so if I were at events, I had to constantly explain myself. And so I wanted to be around people to where I did that wasn't a thing, in a sense of I didn't want to have a story, I didn't want to explain myself, I didn't want people to look at me like I was crazy or weird. And so I knew when I was trying to figure out, you know, where is the future for me, I wanted to be in a community that got it. Even if it wasn't the same journey, we still understood what that journey felt like and what that journey entailed. And so I wanted to just be supported. And so that also led to First Choice Services, which is our parent company where the Problem Gambling Help Network is housed. We're a second chance employer. So there are all kinds of kinds. And I think within the first week, I'm not exaggerating, I felt like I could truly be my authentic self for the first time in my entire life. Because I was surrounded. Yeah, I was surrounded by people who had stories that pain to purpose stories. And I realized I'm not alone, which is a feeling a lot of us have felt in active addiction addiction, especially in the recovery community, um, but also in the gambling community, right? It's a hidden addiction. And so I just felt that I was finally in the space to where I could exist without explanation, but also exist with purpose. And that was really what spearheaded, you know, just sticking with where I'm at. And as I always say, I hope I I hope to die on this hill because it's just it's done a lot of things for me personally, but also professionally.

SPEAKER_01

That's amazing. And I I love the the you know, the second chance movement. I've got a friend who kind of founded a movement that she's working on in Florida about, you know, advocating for people coming out of the prison systems. And um, you know, because it becomes a second sentence a lot of times. And I'm sorry, I'm just pulling on that thread a little bit because I think it's it's a beautiful thing when when somebody can get a second chance and make a livable wage and be able to have a good job that that maybe they're passionate about, help others who are in the same situation, and also be able to pay their court fines and and things like that that a lot of people don't think about when you come out of prison and you still have restitution or court fines, especially in the gambling space, right? And you have to find a livable wage to be able to support yourself, but also pay that money back. And they're just met with so many obstacles. So it becomes the second sentence. You know, you've already served your first sentence, right? And then to have to navigate all that. So I'm very, very passionate about the space and love that you you shared that piece. Um, so kind of bringing it back to what gambling looks like in your community, what what you're engaging in. You're uh I imagine a lot of West Virginia is rural. What does gambling look like in your state, and especially in those rural areas?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so definitely a lot of rural areas that we are seeing our state is hit by addiction in every aspect. We were hit heavily, you know, with the opioid addiction. And we're just now, I think, starting to see some light in that, although it's still very rampant, and it's rampant everywhere, right? We're no uh exception to to what is happening around the world. But um with specifically with gambling, what we're seeing is while a lot of other states, I think, are seeing sports betting being a primary issue, we're still seeing the online gambling being a primary issue. So not specifically sports betting, but online gambling slots, cards. And so I I will say the trend that we're seeing within the last two to three years is definitely within that lower age range, the mid to early or early to mid-20s. But when we first started, we for several years, we were seeing middle-aged women who were contacting our helpline. And I, for me personally, I don't want to speak for the entire helpline. We have tons of data on that, that we're actually wrapping up our previous fiscal year and getting numbers for that as we speak. But I will tell you, in the last five years since I have joined the team, I am noticing a trend of we're going back to that middle age to retirement age of callers. So we are seeing a lot of individuals who don't have health insurance, who are really maybe living on social security, very limited income, and so also limited time in the community, right? So what else are you gonna do? And there's this misconception that it's the older generation or you know, the 40-year-olds to 60, 80, 90 year olds that don't know how to do online. That's not the case, right? We're seeing that that's quite the opposite. And so I've seen a lot of callers who are experiencing whether they're taking care of their parents or they're taking care of their spouses, they're empty nesting, maybe they've recently lost a job, some kind of significant life change that has led to either online gambling or even the hotspots or the VLTs are very, very popular. I make a joke, it's not a joke, but I say if there's a Dollar General, there's at least two or three hotspots right beside it. And so they're everywhere here in West Virginia. And that I think, while I can say we do see online gambling, especially with sports betting, the online gambling with slots and casinos are a big trend. We still see that typical, you know, mid to early 30s um and and mid-20s and age range, but we're starting to see an uptick of the 40s and 60-year-olds, and plus, especially in the retirement community.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And and you mentioned these callers. Um, in my research for this, no big deal. I did a little bit of research. Um, I read an article where it said that the calls to your helpline in West Virginia are up like 150% over the past three years. What do you think is driving that? And are you actually kind of take us through what the helpline like who's answering it? Is it because I, you know, having gone to NCPG last year in Columbus and hearing how convoluted some of these helplines are, where, you know, if you're if you're calling from this state, you might answer you might get an answer from someone in another state. So break us, break it down. What is the helpline exactly like in West Virginia? What role do you and your team play? And why is it up so much in the last three years, you think?

SPEAKER_02

Sure. And I'm really glad that you asked that specifically and like what our team looks like because it's one of the things that I am most proud of to be a part of. So, first and foremost, our team is, I think we have about 14 team members total, and that includes admin, so myself, Nick, my counterpart of the program coordinator, and Maricel, our director. Shout out to Nick and Marisel.

SPEAKER_00

They're awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Shout out to Nick and Marisel, absolutely incredible. But um, we also have shift leads, and then we have individuals who answer the lines 24-7. I will tell you every single person out of the 14, every single one of us are either in recovery ourselves or we are a loved one, and we've been impacted by addiction in one way or another.

SPEAKER_00

Love that.

SPEAKER_02

Not a lot of people can say that. And so I say that as a humble brag, but also as an important note. Another thing, too, we have this uh logo right now, no bots, just humans. And that to me is incredibly important right now in a world where everything is so technologically based, and we're very focused on AI, which you'd not gonna go anywhere within that statement. It has a place and a purpose at times. But we understand, especially in West Virginia, right? Appalachia, like we are very much rural Appalachian mindset. We need to let people know that there are real people that are answering the lines. And so I say that to say that when someone is answering our helpline, you are someone's going to speak with somebody who's either been in recovery, maybe not specifically for gambling addiction, but they're in recovery themselves, who is we do have one team member, Beth. She's very open and Beth. Shout out to Beth, very vocal and oh, absolutely. She's incredible. She's I don't know Beth.

SPEAKER_00

Who's Beth?

SPEAKER_01

You know, um, Beth?

SPEAKER_00

Beth.

SPEAKER_01

I'm bringing her to Chicago. She'll come to Chicago next year. I'm bringing her. I should have brought her this year. Like she she is an amazing advocate. She's in the BGS, she's a mod. She's she's she's incredibly amazing.

SPEAKER_02

And she's very, she's very honest, very hungry to learn and grow and be and help, right? And so she is in recovery from from gambling addiction, and she has done incredible for our team and our callers. But so our helpline is specifically 24-7. So we are, if it's two in the morning, we're gonna answer. If it's two in the afternoon, we're gonna answer. And we still go by the 1-800 gambler number, and and I know that there's a lot of confusion within that. So I'm I don't want to delve too much into that, but just specifically to go on your question, individuals who contact our helpline, they're gonna get support. Even if, let's say, we all 12 of our team members are in some catastrophic event and they're all sick or whatever, Nick Marisol and myself will answer. So that's another thing that I love is that I absolutely still answer the helpline regardless. And it's a core of what we do and who I am as a person. So you had mentioned that sometimes it can get a little confusing if if individuals from a different state are contacting, trying to get to their state's helpline, they might get sent to a different state. But for us specifically, even if you live in Louisiana or if you live in California and you somehow have gotten to us, we're gonna help you and we're gonna figure out a way to get you where you need to go. So, but for our West Virginia callers, right? So if you're contacting our helpline, whether it's call, chat, or text, we're there, we're answering and we're supporting. We do have questions that we ask. You know, every helpline does. There's data, there's information that you have to have, regulations and guidelines you have to meet. But within those questions, we're not just saying, what type of gambling are you are you experiencing? We're saying, how long has this been going on? And you mentioned this has been going on for two, three months now. What happened two, three months ago that led you to really start to gamble online every day? And we're trying to not just get more information, but just provide support, a little bit of that motivational interviewing kind of aspect, but more than anything to just validate, right? Because most of the time, the callers or help seekers that are contacting our helpline have never talked about what they're going through. And so we are the first line of help for individuals. And that's an incredible honor and incredible responsibility to have. And so we're walking them through, we're getting them support, we're connecting them to resources. The beautiful thing about our program is that we provide funding for treatment, right? So we provide the cost of treatment if somebody's looking to get some help. We provide costs for collect credit and financial counseling. We provide access to Gambin or other blocking apps that can help. We do peer support. We have two peers right now, which is not a lot, but it's it's a lot for us. We're we're slowly growing. And so we're always doing everything that we can to connect our help seekers to the support that best fits their need. And another thing that is incredibly beautiful about our network and what we do is we do follow-ups. So it's not that you're just calling our helpline, talking to a stranger, getting that support, and then you're done. You're gonna call us, and then with your permission, we're gonna check in on you as time goes. We're gonna check on you in a week, we're gonna check on you in three months, six months. If you need us to call you for the next two pay periods, we're gonna give you a call to say, hey, you know, you I know you're supposed to get paid today. What are your plans? And it's just that that extra little support that we provide that we have seen statistically provide help in long-term recovery for our callers. So it's a lot of linkage, a lot of referral, more than anything, human connection and support.

SPEAKER_00

Now, this is probably a question for both of you. Is there any other state in the country right now who does such a detailed uh program for a helpline?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of states that do a lot of support.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know about the other thing.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe not as extensive, maybe not as extensive of a program, but like Connecticut has an amazing program. Um, New York has an amazing program. There are a few states that do generally, they have like specific gambling peers. Like I know, for instance, Connecticut, they have like the peer um clinician kind of combo. Uh New York, very similar, pay for for treatments and things like that. So there are states that have different programs. But like in Oklahoma, I'm the only gambling-specific peer in the state. And we have no like direct, like, yeah, I I do peer in the state, but it's we don't have like this direct program of it. And um, but and I think a majority of states are probably in that category that they don't have peers or peer specific to gambling. Um, and they don't have the combination of like resources where they can send somebody to Gamfin or work with a program that's, you know, in their state that does financial counseling or those types of things. So this is a very, very robust program and and very up there compared to a lot of the other states. So you've got you're doing all these things, you're offering all these things at no cost to the citizens of West Virginia who are impacted. What uh, if any, gaps are you seeing in in the support that you do offer? Is there things that you see that hopefully you'll be able to provide for, or do you feel like you're pretty comp comprehensively providing the resources for people calling? I feel like

SPEAKER_02

It it is, it is. And and it's one that I'm always proud of. And and our team, you know, we're all d we just love what we do, right? But I think that question kind of has that radical acceptance answer in a sense of we can recognize how incredibly blessed we are while also understanding how much work we still have to do. So in West Virginia, our funding, while it is great in some areas, it is not as much as what a lot of other states. I I hear other states, you know, they'll have 15 million or 10 million or $8 million budgets. And then there's other states who have 400,000, right? So I think the biggest thing right now, the gap that I will say is across the board is just the connection between, oh my goodness, gambling addiction and other addictions, right? Comorbidity. We have a lack of real support in the treatment facilities in our state, which we're actively working on because the amount of individuals that we have talked to who have been in treatment facilities who have openly discussed gambling while at those facilities, or individuals who have contacted our helpline and have said verbatim, it was easier to stop heroin than it is to stop gambling. And that is something I hear more often than than ever. And so there is a big gap in really providing support and understanding for gambling addiction, specifically in treatment facilities. Another thing that I have kind of been on my soapbox is the fact that we don't ask about gambling addiction while we're at our well visits. And that's something that we're working on trying to change over time because I can go to my well visit and my doctor will ask me about my alcohol use. And, you know, with pride, I'm like, zero, you know, I did it. But not gambling. And so we that is another area. But funding, funding will always be a significant gap. Marisol can tell you, I can tell you, we have gone over historically in our treatment budget every single year. And so what that means is every year we're upping our treatment budget, but then something else has to change, which I would rather, right? Like I don't have to go to these conferences, I don't have to do these things. I would much rather make sure that our callers have the support that they need at no cost, no worry for the rest of my career than I would ever go to another conference. And so there's just a gap of just getting the appropriate funding and getting the appropriate people on board and understanding the impact of gambling addiction. And West Virginia, we're one of the few states that has every single form of gambling that you can think of.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And while that can bring in great revenue, we're also seeing the significant impact that that is having at a very catastrophic amount of impact that it's having on our callers and our people. And this is just the people that we know are contacting our helpline and that not the people that aren't contacting our helpline. So there's a lot of gaps, a lot of room to grow. And I just know that every day we recognize those and continuously to do what we do to kind of bridge those gaps and make those connections and provide further support.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, this is why these conversations are so important because I mean, hand up, I gotta admit, you know, I'm probably been a prisoner of the moment lately, also working for a digital health app and also hearing horror stories from other states' helplines where you're you're rewiring my brain right now, where I'm realizing that there are some states out there who have these amazing programs where the helpline is working. And to your point, it's West Virginia, no offense, love West Virginia, go Mountaineers, but they might they might uh the helpline or the phone might be the route that they want to take rather than downloading an app. And that's okay, right? Like we there's there's plenty of recovery to go around, there's plenty of resources to go around for everybody. So yeah, I just I don't know. I I uh I think that these are the types of conversations that you know that happen at these conferences, but they need to happen after the conference is over, like we are right now, right? Because the next time someone on e Vive comes from West Virginia, which I just looked, we've we've had about 40 people in the last six months download eVive in West Virginia, which is awesome. That's with zero marketing, zero anything. But I'm now gonna say, like, hey, um, they have an amazing uh, you know, helpline network. Like, here's here's Kristen's email. You know what I mean? Like, so I love that. And that that could that could literally send that person down the right path. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why I really love our slogan, no bots, just humans, because it hones in on, you know, at the conference, there were several fantastic companies that were talking about their app and AI and technology, and all of those are great tools to have. But we are forgetting the most important part of getting help, and it's that human connection. I can know that I have absolutely used AI to kind of get something out of my brain for a second. But I also rely more so on my community, right? My husband, my friends, my family, that human connection to remind me that I'm not alone. And that's something that people need to know, especially within gambling addiction or gambling harm or disorder, is the fact that not only are you not alone, but there's going to be a real human on that other end that's not just going to listen and not just gonna ask you questions, but going to make sure we kind of cherry pick what we think can really help, but also let you know of other resources, GA meetings. I know, Adam, we we met with you not too long ago about the modern meeting and the fantastic work that that does. And it's just constantly making sure that people know that while they can contact us for resources, they can also contact us when they have nowhere else to go.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and that was gonna be my next question, and you just pretty much answered it for me, which is that you know, it's great that you guys have this resource. It's great that you guys make this initial connection with them, but then what? Right? Like that because you know, as someone in recovery, eventually we need to find our tribe. Like the most of the time, 99% of the time, we need to find our tribe, we need to find a group, we need to find that human connection that we can that we can keep coming back to every week. There's a few people that are able to just do it through one-on-one counseling, but most people need that group. So, like you said, you are how many GA meetings or how many just in-person meetings in general are there in West Virginia? Do you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so talk about gaps. This is another one. Unfortunately, we only have three GA meetings in the entire state of West Virginia. That's not that's not enough, right? I can go on the corner in downtown Charleston and find three AA meetings and three NA meetings. But GA, we have one in Parkersburg, one in Wheeling, and one in Morgantown. And those are very few, like those are very spaced out, right? So not only are there three, but they're so spaced out that geographically it's just not feasible for a lot of our callers. And, you know, that is something that another gap that we're trying to work on is trying to find people who want to lead GA meetings. But in the in the process of that, we'll always make sure that they have access to virtual meetings or other online support groups. And speaking of tribe, I think that is incredibly true, right? We need to make sure that we are getting connected with people who who get it, who've been there, who've done it, who can support us along the way. But I will also tell you one of the most interesting things that I have heard from I I would roughly estimate at least five callers since January. So I know that may not seem a lot, but it's enough for my brain to pick it up. That, and these are just people that I've spoken to, right? Not our callers in general. But we have to find that tribe, but we have also got to find our own purpose outside of recovery and our our passion, our goals, our dreams. What are we like? You know, for me, I my whole life was based around comfort or chaos before I chose recovery. And I learned how to escape at a very, very young age. And that led to significant difficulty in self-identity. Who am I outside of chaos? Who am I outside of survival? And that led to really having difficult problems with alcohol and abusing alcohol as a way to escape and figure that out. And this false idea that I was fun and exuberant and full of life, and really it was quite the opposite. And so I've spoken to a lot of callers or several callers that have kind of alluded to that same thing, right? Individuals who have taken care of everybody their entire life, or who have lived in the existence of someone else their entire life. So of course they're going to experience some type of gambling addiction because that's their escape. That's the only moment that they can just decompress and plug away and just be in a moment for themselves. And so I spoke to one caller specifically who said, I don't know how to dream. And that was incredibly heartbreaking because I did not know how to dream myself, right? So I hated the question of what did you want to be when you grew up? Because I did not know. I I don't know. I I hate, and to this day, I hate that question. Because as a child, I that wasn't a dream that was nurtured as much as you know, typical um childhood dreams can be. And so that's something else that we're seeing with I think people seeking help within the gambling community, but other addictions as well, that these are people who did not have typical experiences and who don't know what their what their interests are, what their hobbies are. Um, I know when I started to go into recovery, I started to figure that out myself in a sense of I've got to figure out who is Kristen, right? I know I'm in recovery, I know I'm sober now, but who am I outside of my childhood and all of that? And so it led to I started playing ukulele. And my husband, bless his soul, I'll never forget the first time I ever bought ukulele. We were on a road trip in North Carolina, and here he is driving and me like trying to learn how to play this instrument. And it was awful, it was god awful. But he knew that there was so much joy in trying to figure that out that he let me play terribly the whole time. I know he was like, I wish I brought my headphones. But that led to over the years doing songs for the Glow Walkers, Suicide Awareness Walk in Jackson County every year. That also led to hand embroidery. I realized over the years I love doing hand embroidery. And so that's an aspect, too, that I think we really should hone in on in recovery and support as well is connecting people to these resources, connecting them to communities and tribes, but also connecting them to people that can help them grow who they are, their true sense of self, not just in recovery, right? We are much more than our stories. We are our creations, our dreams, our stories, our art, our music, whatever the situation may be. And so that's something that I'm trying, I've tried really hard to hone in on a lot more within our team and our callers, and even Marcel in talking about what we can do for future events and connections to really make sure that that is also something we discuss and bring up when we're supporting our callers.

SPEAKER_01

I absolutely love that. It's like speaking my language. I'm sure Adam's like, man, it's like two people speaking the same thing.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks because I'm very much glad.

SPEAKER_01

I'm very, very much about like, yeah, we need to do the work of recovery, right? We need to work with a clinician and work with peers and people who understand. We need to have those real conversations with real humans who have real experiences to kind of help navigate. But and I certainly don't want to say anything that that is, you know, harmful in any way, but it's just like we are so much more than what we experienced. We are, you know, using that experience is what continues to build us, but we've got to grow beyond it. And it's like, yeah, it's a part of our story and it's an important part because it helped change our lives. But I know for me, like even before addiction came into my my life or my story, I felt a lot of things you talked about of like not ever really having an identity and or being in the shadow of somebody else's identity and not really knowing who Christina was. But I did like hobbies and things like that. And then the addiction kind of took in. And then it was like nothing was excess exciting anymore. Nothing like I didn't know what I liked. Like I'd lost myself so much. And so much of my recovery was relearning who I am, what I enjoy doing, you know, what I can do as a person, and just blowing that lid off of the box that I lived in, and you know, exploring what recovery was doing for me, but also just living and you know, finding new things. So that's very much my philosophy as well. We are just so much more than this chapter of our lives, but but always carrying this chapter with us, you know, kind of very, very similar. And so I I love that you were talking about that because it it is just so much bigger.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think um, just a little bit more to broaden on that, um, I have a little conspiracy theory that I you can ask Mariselle, I do not shut up about. But I I talked about burnout uh just a you know a little bit ago, but I also think that that plays a role into what we're seeing with people in recovery and long-term in recovery relapsing because that sense of identity is, and and you're right, I want to be very mindful because meetings are so important, um, support groups are so important, uh, routine, consistency, all of this we know is crucial and important to recovery. But what I've seen in speaking with people who've been in long-term recovery, who have recently relapsed, is that it is that is the only focus that they're having. There's no sense of identity outside of that. It's like they they go to meetings, they do peer support, they do this, they do that, they go home, wash, rent, repeat. Yeah. And so that is something that I think, and I think too, with those of us in recovery, and I've kind of experienced this as well, where we're so open about our stories that talking about when we're not doing our best is impossible or it feels more impossible because everybody knows our story. And then if we say something about, you know, hey, I'm not doing the greatest, people are typically gonna be like, oh no, are you okay? Have you used? Are you gonna relapse? Are you gonna gamble? Do you have your support? Have you gone to meetings? And you know, people, we mean well when we do that. We mean well. We mean well when we do that, right? But we forget to say, hey, okay, what's what's been going on, right? We can have problems. I know that I can have a really difficult time. That doesn't mean I'm gonna go and drink. Yeah, right. Exactly. I can have a difficult time and I can vent about it. And thankfully I have that support system that's not going to mean we'd be like, well, our when's the last AA meeting? When's your therapy appointment, right? Like, I'm just getting this yucky stuff out of my brain because it needs out. So that is a big part of it, too, of why I think people in long-term recovery really need we need to more have more conversations about finding who we are outside of recovery, and in addition to our recovery, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that that's not a conspiracy theory. That is a beautifully articulate way to describe a serious problem that we are having right now in this space. Because you're you're 100% right. I I talk about all the time in my meetings where I say I'm gonna have balance, and then a month later I'm still doing the same shit, and I haven't seen my friends, or I haven't done anything social besides recovery. Like you you nailed it. Like it's it's so true. It's so true. We're so concerned with it.

SPEAKER_01

Like stages of it. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like like we're so concerned with the people that are, you know, a year or less. And I know Christina, we talked about this on a previous episode where it's like we still need to check in on the people that have five, 10, 15, 20 years for this exact reason.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Because life doesn't stop being lifey, right? Like even as we early recovery is a challenge, right? That's when habit building and going to meetings and building those tools are so, so important. Those first few years of recovery, you're what you're doing is you're just you're learning a new way of living and you're you're using the resources like therapy and and meetings and community and all of those things. And and I'm somebody who will be in a community for years to come. Um I started one, so I've got to stay committed to it. But right, it but only, you know, I have true passion and purpose in this space. But, you know, all the things you were saying of like being so out there and and you know, having a bad day, it's sometimes my bad days show up in the community because I'm like, why are you guys being so mean? And then I just like let them all have it. But at the, you know, the side of it, everything that I'm doing is to to help me engage in life on a broader level and bigger growth, you know, really better understanding who I am as a person and how I need to navigate life in a healthy way. And then I go and I navigate life, right? Bad day doesn't mean I'm gonna gamble. You know what I mean? But a bunch of bad days without the proper tools and resources and community are gonna get me to that spot a lot quicker. Or maybe not, it may not even look like gambling. It may look like drinking, it may look like something else, right? It's because I'm I'm not handling or coping well. And so, you know, there's there's just so much around the work of recovery, but there's so much around building this life that you don't want to escape from. And that's what I say all the time, right? So it's it's gotta look like so much more than that.

SPEAKER_02

Did you have a I wish well before before Adam, sorry, that that pinged something else too. I wish that. So think about the conference, right? How much conversation was centered around work or addiction or recovery, and how little conversations were about everything else outside of that. And that's why I really appreciated those karaoke nights because nobody was like that, we were not there for work in those nights, right? We were there to decompress and have fun. Yeah, we might have still interacted and connected, but it was focused on outside of that. And I wish we had more of that and more moments of just real human conversations and connections, then we you just all in on these just one center focus. And it's important, right? I will talk about this every single day for the rest of my life, Lord willing. But I'll also talk about other aspects too.

SPEAKER_00

No, and and it's you just pinged something in me where it's like if I had to hear the word calci one more time at that conference, I was gonna jump out the window, right? It's like, you know, yes, we need that social time to just kind of let loose and get to know each other. But then when we are talking business, can we just can we talk about solutions and positivity and not just the negative and not, did you hear that they did this? Did you hear that they lost funding to this? We lost this grant, blah, blah, blah, blah. What does that do? What does that do for the people who are struggling?

SPEAKER_01

And we often glamor glamorize the problem, and we never grant glamorize the solution. So, like that is something that is mainstream across all levels of I hope you're all hearing this.

SPEAKER_00

I love you all, but we need to, we need to, you know, let's stop and smell the roses once in a while.

SPEAKER_02

Just a little, just like a little bit. And my daughter is uh, she's she'll be four, and she genuinely stops and smells any flower that we see. I love it. And it's the sweetest thing, but if it doesn't like that visual reminder of, yeah, stop and smell the roses. Like things are gonna be chaotic, things are gonna be crazy, we're gonna get angry, things are never gonna work, not never, but things will not always work in our favor, right? We're not always gonna be happy with decisions that are made. But we do have some control, right? You know, I'm just in West Virginia and in in, you know, just a coordinator in a position with with limited control, but I still have some control, right? So I can't control what's happening outside, but I can control the support our callers are getting right now. And so I'm gonna focus on that. I'm gonna smell those roses while still recognizing the harm and the issues that are at hand and figuring out what my role is as I go.

SPEAKER_01

So as we're kind of winding down this episode and a great conversation and just appreciate you how you're showing up and and sharing with us. What gives you hope in the space and in life? Like, what gives you hope going forward? Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Ooh, that's um I'm gonna try not to be too emotional on this one.

SPEAKER_00

So oh, we love emotion, we love emotion.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, the minute the tears come, Adam starts, like it's it becomes this whole thing, and then we all end up just being so much.

SPEAKER_02

It's very contagious, but uh no shame in my game though. I'm I'm I'm an Emotional being and I love it. But I will say that is that there's two parts to that answer. The first part is time. Um, because as long as I am still here, um, those that I love are still here, there is still time for change. Uh I know I've talked a little bit about my experience with with alcohol and being in recovery, but I'm also a loved one. And I have a sister that I think about and love every day. And she is right now in in the depths of her own addiction. And so every moment that she responds to my message or every moment I know she's still here, there's time, right? So for me, it's just time in general that as long as our callers are still contacting our helpline, as long as our message is still getting out there, there's still time for change, for hope, recovery, life, anything and everything in between. And I will also say the people I'm surrounded by. I mentioned first choice being a second chance employer and the amount of incredible stories of pain to purpose and just the drive and the mission and the passion that they have just gives me hope that there's there is good in the world, right? We can see the bad and the negativity and the frustration, but these are people day in and day out that are just proving what good is and how good can still be used. And you know, even at the conference, getting to speak with so many people, you know, and meeting Adam and Christina, I think you and us briefly spoke for a second in our love and admiration of Beth. And the you guys are also a part of that, right? Um, the the same passion, human also, but that same passion of knowing that we'll we'll figure it out one way or another. We're gonna keep doing what we're doing and we're gonna figure it out as we go. So just time and community are my biggest facets of hope for sure.

SPEAKER_00

We've asked that question to I think 18 people now, and uh no one has ever said time, and I love it. I love it, I love that so much.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. It's it's been an honor. I could tell you, I could I'm a yapper, so I could, I'm like, we could keep going. I wish. We could keep going. It's just been an honor and a privilege to really uh sit with you guys and and speak about our program, but also just see the passion that you guys have and share that and and just be in a space where we can kind of schmooze and and love and advocate at the same time. So thank you more than anything for this.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. And I mean, the minute the minute I met you, so you know, we were on the Zoom call, but then once I met you in person, I think I might have texted Christina and said, Okay, I found, I've definitely found, you know, because I I'm not gonna lie, like when I meet people, it's like, ooh, they'd be great for the podcast, or ooh, they'd be great for e Vive Live, they'd be great for the modern meeting. But for you, I was like, we gotta get her on something because she's just you just have that energy. And I and I could I could tell that like you know, you're just um you align with a lot of what Christina and I are trying to trying to accomplish. And you know, obviously what a lot of others in the space are, but no, you you guys are you guys are doing great things in West Virginia, and uh yeah, just really appreciate you coming on. This was awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, thank you guys, and thank you for all you do. You guys are a big voice for for a lot of people, and I know we're we're leading our callers to you know your guys' podcast and and just support in general. So it takes a village, right?

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much for the time. Thank you guys, of course. Thank you.