Access more! Welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast, where marketplace Christians explore God's will and ways for business. This show features conversations with today's Christ-centered business leaders who are representing Christ faithfully in the business world. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and if you want to make your work, leadership, and company's culture more Christ-centered, you've come to the right place. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Theology of Business podcast. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show for marketplace Christians seeking to explore and apply God's will for business. On this episode, we're joined by Chuck Proudfit. Chuck is president and founder of Skill Source. In 2003, Chuck started at work on purpose to facilitate a citywide marketplace ministry, which has grown to include over 10,000 working Christians across Greater Cincinnati, Ohio. So that's 10,000 just in the Cincinnati area. And so this really has become a template for other cities to follow and their efforts to reach their cities for Christ. Chuck is co-author of Business Tree, Transforming Lives Through Enterprise, and also the book Citywide Marketplace Ministry in a Box. Chuck, welcome to the Theology of Business podcast. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_00Chuck, when did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work in business? I'm a guy that came to faith because of my frustration with work. So young working professional, right out of school in a multinational consumer products company and feeling like a force fit in my job. And what happened, Darren, was it triggered a spiritual search that brought me to Christ about a decade later. So I came to Christ at 31, and it was in my 30s that I was really starting to wrestle with the idea of a life fully integrated with faith. It wasn't just about work, but work was a place where I was spending most of my waking hours. So that was important. And I was so puzzled because I'd read the New Testament where the early church was very active with faith in the workplace. But most working Christians today go to church on Sunday and work on Monday. They separate them. So I really developed a passion for myself and for other people to figure out what it looks like in today's world to be faith active.
SPEAKER_01And you were a frequent speaker at a lot of these faith and work events. I I heard you, I think probably the first time back in 2016 in Dallas, and then again this past April in uh in Orlando for the U.S. Christian Chamber of Commerce Summit. And one of the things that came up uh was this concept of ecclesia. So can you explain for us what a church is in the sense Jesus meant it when he said in Matthew 16, upon this rock I will build my church? I think we have some confusion about this today, where church is just three songs in a sermon.
SPEAKER_00As a preamble to what I'm about to share, I have a heart for the local church. I'm actually an elder in a local church. And I pray that more and more local churches are planted and grow. Now, having said that, what Jesus actually said in Matthew 16, 18 was that I will build my ecclesia, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against that. It was actually switched around to church hundreds of years later by King James, at the time the King James Bible was authored. He issued an edict to the scribes that everywhere they found the word ecclesia, they were to replace it with the word church. The reason was that King James was irritated that the church was interfering with his governance. So his idea was that by that time church didn't just mean the mobile body of believers who were active in the workplace throughout the workday. It also meant a building and it meant a time of the week. So the idea was if Matthew 16, 18 read instead, I will build my church, people would come to understand it as I will build local churches. And that is how most of us understand the passage. That is not what Jesus was actually communicating. When he said, I will build my ecclesia, he was referencing in ecclesia a concept that actually originated hundreds of years before his birth. It started in Greece as a governing assembly, but it was perfected by the Roman Empire, Darren, when Rome would conquer a territory. They would win the peace by sending out what they called an ecclesia. It was a small number of upstanding Roman citizens. They would move into the conquered territory. They would acculturate the locals in the language and the lifestyle of Rome until everyone around them walked and talked like a Roman. So if we understand this context, when Jesus was saying, I will build my ecclesia, he's basically speaking to people at a time when the Jewish people have been conquered by Rome, and there's a Roman ecclesia in Jerusalem, and it's trying to assimilate Jews into Roman culture. And of course, the Jewish people are fiercely resisting this. So when Jesus said to the people of that day, I will build my ecclesia, they understood that what he meant was, I will raise up a small number of fully devoted followers who will infiltrate the culture for Christ, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against that.
SPEAKER_01Love that. King James was trying to compartmentalize the church and just sort of confine it to a building. Like what you think he should have just left the term ecclesia, or is there another term he should have used?
SPEAKER_00Well, King James definitely housed the worship in the houses of worship, didn't he? I mean, here we are hundreds of years later, and we understand that passage to mean church as the institutional church. But the truth is that the early church under understood itself as the body of Christ. And the Apostle Paul actually used the metaphor of the body. And the Jewish people really gave theological origins to the early Christian church. And they understood that everywhere in life, you were either in your thoughts and your actions moving in the direction of God's will, which is good, or away from it, which was bad. And it didn't matter if you were at home or at work or at large. The point was that you were to be faithful wherever you found yourself. So Jesus was simply saying, I know that faithful Christians in the workplace will bring the light of Christ to the darkness of the workplace. That's what he meant. And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you have to have you seen any uh or come across any historical accounts of what this actually looks like when um sort of the process of uh enculturating a new area with one of these ecclesias in the Roman times? Like, how do they decide who was going to be part of that ecclesia and how many were there, roughly? Any of that that sort of information? Where can we go for that?
SPEAKER_00There's a a good book by Dr. Ed Silvoso called Ecclesia, which unpacks what I'm sharing with you in a lot more detail. The number of people that Rome would send to a conquered territory depended on its size. And uh typically, you know, they would have uh a leadership cadre that was assigned to any given jurisdiction, and then they would be supported by soldiers, and then they would be supported by the Roman Empire at large. And Rome wasn't just sending people, it was building infrastructure. So Roman roads that uh became a mainstay for travel. And what many people also don't know, but I learned in that book, Ecclesia by Ed Silvoso, is that the word apostle was a word that Jesus also had taken from Roman military tradition, because in the Roman military, an apostle was an admiral responsible for a fleet of ships. And they would bring the materials and the ecclesia, the people, to the conquered territory, typically by sea, and then of course by land where necessary. So the point is it wasn't just about the people they were bringing, it was building materials, uh, construction workers. They literally created Roman facilities wherever they went to physically imprint the stamp of the Roman Empire into the soil of the conquered territory.
SPEAKER_01And so when Jesus says that wherever two or more are gathered, there I am in your midst. This can you elaborate on that? Because this has some some Greco-Roman origins as well, right?
SPEAKER_00It does. This is a third Roman military construct that Jesus appropriated from the Romans and infused with kingdom DNA. So in Matthew 18, 20, we read, where two or three are gathered, there I am in their midst. In other words, where two or three believers are present, uh, Jesus is in our midst. It's not just the DNA and the memory of the kingdom, we're literally in community. But that term once again originated with the Roman Empire. So the phrase conventus civum romanorum meant that where two or three Roman citizens travel to a foreign land, the empire of Rome is already present with them. Many times the two or three Romans were spies who were sent out to study a land that had not yet been conquered in preparation for military action. So when Jesus said, where two or three are gathered, there I am in their midst, he was appropriating this idea. So when two or three of us go to the spiritually foreign world of work and we're surrounded by colleagues who are all over the map spiritually, we are the conventus in that place of work. We are the two or three, and we're not alone. Jesus is in our midst, and we're given spiritual responsibility and authority to bring the kingdom to that place of work.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So why does the American church template look so different uh than this idea of ecclesia, of conventis? Why does it look so different?
SPEAKER_00Over the centuries, there have been a series of historical occurrences that started to shape what we think of today as the institution of church. And King James' decision with the King James Bible is one example. But another one that happened earlier was the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. This is when the Roman Emperor Constantine is adopting Christianity as the official religion of the state. They'd spent centuries trying to eradicate Christianity and they couldn't, so they decided if we can't beat them, we'll join them. But we would like to assimilate Christianity into the Roman Empire. So at the Council of Nicaea, this is what was happening. Christianity was becoming the official religion. But at this council, it was decided to create a distinction between the clergy and the laity. So the clergy were to be spiritual people set apart for the study of the transcendent realities of God and spiritual life. And then the laity, that's everybody else, like you and me, were simply workers who would go off to work, and then we were to set aside part of our earnings to fund the clergy to do their spiritual work. Now, this construct was not at all in the tradition of the early church, and it didn't at all reflect the Jewish tradition, but instead it was a reflection of a Greek philosopher, Plato. It's called dualism to separate the sacred and the secular. So what happens in 325 AD is that we introduce a foreign construct to Christian theology where clergy are set apart from laity. Then as the church becomes buildings and worship services as well as the mobile body of believers, we start through King James to have a shift in our understanding of what church is. And so now, centuries later, we find ourselves in an institutional box. So people that believe they want to go into ministry, they'll go to seminary and then they'll look for a pastoral position. And if somebody is out in the marketplace like you and me, they'll often say, Oh, I'm gonna quit my job so I can go into ministry. And the hard truth is there's not nothing that's true about that. We are in ministry wherever God has placed us at work. Yes. But this is the mindset now that church is a place, and the pastors there are the professionalized, institutionalized clergy, and the rest of us are the laity who are to attend worship services and we are to donate to the work of the church.
SPEAKER_01So the Great Commission is to go and make disciples. And so if this is gonna happen, it's gonna happen as we are being the church and not just doing church. And the primary place that's gonna happen is where we spend most of our waking hours, and that's in the workplace. So, what does discipleship, how does it happen in a workplace setting where you can't really just have a church? I know some businesses are actually doing church services, uh, which I think that's awesome. Um, I mean, there's there's chaplaincy, like what does this look like? What does disciple making look like in a for-profit business setting specifically?
SPEAKER_00First of all, to set the stage for that excellent question, let me say that if we read the New Testament, we find that Jesus was discipling the disciples for several years before they finally got what he was saying. In other words, we typically think of evangelizing people until they become Christ followers and then we disciple believers. But if we step back in a broader sense, we're called to disciple people. I'll use a marketplace word, to coach people wherever they are in a spiritual continuum. So the place where I believe we need to start at work is to recognize that we are to be spiritually coaching people regardless of their current starting point on a spiritual continuum. And I know for some that's a very foreign thought. I think it's important to mention, though, right out of the gate. Then my most important recommendation would be drawing people to Luke chapter 10. This is where Jesus was sending out the 70 disciples in work teams of two to go to surrounding towns and villages to share the good news of Christ. And he laid out a four-step process in that scripture. And this is the new international chuck version. He basically said, Hey, as you show up in these towns and villages, give people a warm greeting. If they don't like you and they're mean to you, then dust off your sandals and move on. But if they're friendly, hang out with them, build a relationship with them, get to know them, and then when you find out what their issues are, minister to their felt needs. And then when they come to you and say, Man, you help me so much. Why did you go the extra mile for me? Then you can proclaim Christ as the reason for your motivation. In other words, Jesus in Luke chapter 10 is saying, Bless the people you encounter, fellowship with the ones who open the door, minister to felt needs. In scripture it says heal the sick, and then proclaim Christ as the reason for your motivation when they ask. Tell them that the kingdom of God has come near to them. This is an approach for serving people, whether they are Christians or not. And regardless of where our starting point is on a spiritual continuum, we build a relationship with people, we start to understand the felt needs in their lives, and then we start to speak spiritually into their lives as they're opening the door. I think for those of us in the workplace who are already believers, it's very important for us to recognize that God desires for us to be a conventist in the place where we work. Most of us don't do that though, Darren. Imagine if we all went to work and we did a spiritual audit where we were intentional to discover the other Christians in the place where we worked. And then we would gather with them periodically. And we would break bread together, we would build relationships, we would pray for our colleagues, we would look for ways to be a blessing to our place of work, right? And what would that look like as a way to set an example of Christ followers that are truly improving the culture of an organization?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, that's a great first step is to really pray that God will draw you to other believers in your workplace. I mean, chances are, especially if you're working in the United States, there's probably more than just you. Uh, and I know a lot of work as workplace Christians, my myself included, uh, especially, you know, early in my Christian walk, kind of had that um that Elijah complex. Like, I'm the only one here that's not bowed the knee to to bail. And the Lord drew me to where Paul comes into Corinth and and Jesus says, Don't be afraid, for I have many in this place. And that was uh that was an eye-opening moment for me. And the Lord just began to survive, I began to, they were already there. It was just sort of opened my eyes up to the ecclesia right there in my workplace in the military.
SPEAKER_00Right. And we we start to see with spiritual eyes the impact that we can have on the world around us, because God hasn't just employed us in the workplace, he has deployed us. Yeah. And we're all positioned differently, different organizations and industries and communities. But as it says in Jeremiah 29:7, we should seek the peace and prosperity of the city, even in spiritual exile, right? And it starts right at the place where we work and right at the place where we live, and to understand that some of us have been positioned by the Lord in positions to influence decision making in all of the channels of cultural influence, business, education, government, and so forth.
SPEAKER_01Yes. What is one of your favorite examples of marketplace ministry, we'll call it? Sash, sort of real world, a real world like this actually happened, kind of an example. Sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll um I'll use an historical one and one that's more current. I know that's two instead of one. Great. Um, you know, I think about Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War. So here's a guy who is a devout Christ follower that God positions as the chief executive of the United States. He cannot reconcile his faith beliefs that all people are created in the image of God with slavery. So he makes an executive decision to free African Americans even at the cost of a civil war and ultimately at the cost of his life. I mean, that is just absolutely profound. And um while centuries have passed, right, it's it's it's something that happened in history, it echoes so much in our current culture and our current national discourse and our current life. A current example that comes to mind is so many business leaders like um the Kathy family with Chick-fil-A. What they have essentially done, in my opinion, is to disciple an industry. Now, I know that sounds odd because we normally think about discipling people, but I would suggest that one of the most powerful ways for us to impact culture is that we do such a good job in the work that we do that we become a benchmark. And when other people strive to emulate us, we begin to change behavior patterns all around us. That's what Chick-fil-A's done in the fast food industry. I think it's remarkable how they have impacted fast food.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And and it's you can see the difference. Just look across the street going down the main uh the main street in your town and see Chick-fil-A is completely full. There's an army of of uh drive-thru workers out there, and then across the street, uh the drive-thru is just empty. Um, I mean, the the standard of service has just been raised so high by Chick-fil-A in that industry. Um, that's a that's I love that idea about discipling an industry, and that's what we're we're called to do. Not necessarily to just beat the competition and destroy the competition, but to set the example of service. I think that's a more Christ like way to view competition is that we're going to set the standard because the standard is Christ.
SPEAKER_00Many people don't know this, but the Kathy family, the customer service program. They set up at Chick-fil-A was inspired by the parable that Jesus gave about going the extra mile with the Roman centurion. And what would it look like to go the extra mile in the way that Chick-fil-A would serve its customers and its associates?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're doing it. There's a lot of uh a lot of companies that aren't even really at the first mile, you know. And and true Kathy was saying that the first mile is basically just I mean, just do what you say you're gonna do. I mean, make sure that people don't have to wait forever on their food. And but going the extra mile, it because a lot of the fast food companies aren't even doing that. But I think what's the point. Well, Chief Fully does. So they're not only going the first mile, they're going the second mile, which is if um, I mean, like tackling robbers in the parking lot and you know, going and and um driving somebody's lost car keys all the way to their house, and you know, these kinds of things that their employees are doing because of that culture is just incredible. Yes. Chuck, where can people connect with you? I mean, there's so much meat in this uh interview already. Um, I know our listeners are going to want to listen to this again and again. Um, but after they listen, where can they connect with you uh to get more involved in what you're doing? I know at workonpurpose.org and skillsource.com are your websites. What do you want to say about those?
SPEAKER_00At work on purpose is a citywide model for workplace ministry, kind of like the early church was organized in cities. That's what we've been doing in Cincinnati, Ohio. It's kind of come of age. A lot of people have taken a good deal of interest in it. And so that's kind of the distinctive dimension of this particular workplace ministry. And for any of the listeners that would have uh desire to learn more about that, please do visit our website at worconpurpose.org or to reach out to me personally. My email is just Chuck at WorkonPurpose.org.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Chuck, thank you so much for spending your time with us. It's really a joy to talk to you today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and uh expertise with our listeners.
SPEAKER_00Darren, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to be on this podcast and to get to know you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to this episode of the Theology of Business podcast. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and tune in for the next episode as we continue exploring God's will and ways for business.