Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by my friend Mike Thacker. Mike is one of Houston's most admired CEOs as founder of the Work Lodge, which I've been to. He hosted a great uh party for the attendees at a Christian podcaster conference that I got to attend uh years ago. It's just a first-class facility. And he's been part of two Guinness World Record attempts. Maybe he'll tell us a little bit about and recently released Mic Drop, which is a book that outlines God's plan to use business and entrepreneurship for Kingdom Impact. And you may already know Mike. He's got a phenomenal video where he bought a burnt-down mansion. Well, it wasn't completely burnt down, still had the the bones to it, but the roof completely was consumed by fire. And Mike and his family, they purchased that property and renovated it into just a gorgeous, you know, restored just the gorgeous uh beauty of this um this this house and and estates like five acres, right, Mike?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, pretty much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's basically the the Biltmore of I live here in Asheville. It's like the Biltmore of Nashville, right?
SPEAKER_01I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_00There's some big houses out here in Nashville. So well, Mike, it's so good to reconnect with you. Welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Yeah, so um, what were those two Guinness World Record attempts? I know our audience is gonna be mad at me if I don't ask about that.
SPEAKER_01Well, so I used to be a podcaster. I'm one of those guys that didn't stick with it like you, you know. But um, while I was podcasting, I was involved with um an online global podcast kind of conference, and uh, I guess it was the the biggest ever in the world, and then they broke the Guinness World Record the next year. So because I was one of the speakers who was part of it, I got like a little participation trophy, you know. But it says Guinness on it, so I'm I'm claiming it. Like I was there, I was one of the guys. Awesome. I'll take it, but I'm not the guy. Someone else got that one.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's more than a record attempt. I mean, that's a record, yeah. How many people were there?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I don't know. It was like six or eight thousand or something like that. Yeah, you know, so it was it was pretty big for podcasting.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. Well, you like to go big or go home, and so you've you've you purchased this property for one and a half million dollars, I believe. And and now kind of what stage is it in at this point?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we've just about wrapping up. It's been 18 months or so of a of a journey, um, a little bit slower than we would have liked, but um, we moved in in March and uh still kind of working on some finishing touches through through the spring into the summer. And um, I mean it came out pretty good, you know. You've obviously seen the pictures and we like we like how it showed up. There's a couple of folks on YouTube that don't seem to think so, but it's okay. Most of them do. Um, so I mean, yeah, it's it's just been a fun thing to to roll up your sleeves and get involved in, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And, you know, like you said before, you didn't know if this house was gonna actually stand up given what it had what it had been through. And so, you know, I hear that story. I'm like, my goodness, just the amount of risk that was taken. Um, there's uh you you didn't that wasn't your first rodeo, right? I mean, you you started uh the work lodge, right? So you already kind of had some um property development experience. Tell us about a work lodge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I was I was working in Houston. It was back in, I don't know, 2013 or so. And I used to travel a lot when I was home, I'd work out the house. And I didn't like working out of the house. Uh I still don't think it's a great, you know, situation for most people. And uh I think um I think other people would agree, having done it for a little while. But anyway, I woke up one day and I said, babe, I want to go get an office. Like, I don't like being at home all the time. I don't like not seeing people, I like to be around some energy, you know. I own four walls, it's fun, but it's not that much fun. So when I'm home, I want to go somewhere to work. And I didn't know anything about office space at all. Like nothing. I'd worked in big companies and they took care of office space, but but I didn't really know a whole lot about it. So I go out and I find this thing called an executive suite. And I don't, I don't think I even knew what an executive suite was, but that's what they call themselves. And I go look at this office and it's like four walls of drywall, a solid wood door. It's internal. So I'm standing there and I'm thinking, this is like solitary confinement, right? Like this must be what it feels like. And I said to Lee, is this the only one you've got? He said, Yeah, yeah, we're full. Like this is the only one we've got. It's 800 bucks a month. And I'm thinking, there's no way on earth I'm paying 800 bucks a month to sit here by myself when I can stay at home by myself for free. So I went home and I said to my wife, I said, Hey, you know, I don't think I could do a worse job than these folks because it looked pretty shabby. And maybe I could do a better job, and maybe some other folks want to come work in a cool place. So why don't we go build something? And so we we started on that journey and took about a year, a year and a half or so, just research, thinking about it, noodling about it, trying to talk myself out of it. And then finally I was doing a I was doing an extortion case up in uh, I think I was in Seattle, and and I came across this thing called a co-working space. And so I went to look at it and I walked in and I'm standing there, I'm thinking, this is exactly what I was like visioning in my mind. You know, like it felt fun. There was energy, you could see people moving around. Um, it wasn't so much about the aesthetic, it was just more about just that community feel of there's something happening here, right? Whereas the place I'd gone to look at, from the second I walked in all the way down the hallway and out, I didn't see a human being at all. I mean, it was just closed prison cells, was the way I thought of it. And so um, so I got on the phone and I said, Linda, like I've just found this place, you know, and you know, it's got people in it, right? So obviously somebody else is willing to pay to come to something like this. Like, this is exactly what I was talking about. And then I was going to Portland um from Seattle, and so I'm Googling, you know, in Portland, okay, co-working spaces. Now that I've found this phrase that somebody used, is there another one? And so I find one and I go look at it. And it's like a it's a glorified coffee shop. I mean, it was very different, but they had people in there, and like at this point, the only thing stopping us was not could we do it or should we do it? It was just, is anyone else gonna pay to come alongside us and work in the same space? You know, because once I'm on the hook, like I got to pay a lot of rent. And so I just remember vividly that same thought of dude, there's people in here. Like it's and and I'm in the people business, you know, that's really what we're in. And and people don't understand that, you know, they think it's just real estate, it's just office space, but it's not, you know, it's it's a workplace for winners. And and I say that almost tongue in cheek because if you want to win, we all know one can slay a thousand, but two can slay 10, right? These are biblical principles about doing life with other people, and you will go further than your own. So if business is how I make a living, of all the things that I can invest money in, why would I not want to invest it to go work in a place that might cost a little bit more than I'm happy paying, but it's gonna put me around a bunch of other people that's gonna help me be more successful in business, which is gonna make that money back and then some anyway, but I might actually just enjoy what I do a lot more and have a happier time being an entrepreneur because it's a tough gig, you know, and a lot of people struggle with that just mentally and emotionally. Um, I mean, obviously we're not here to talk about co-working spaces, but that's my current, you know, day job. So I'll, I'll, I'll muse on it endlessly. But um, yeah, that's what we do, and that's how we do it. We've got two in Houston, Texas. Come check us out if you're local.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wonderful. And and so faith, your your Christian faith is just infusing everything you do. Uh, when did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work and business?
SPEAKER_01Oh, like before we ever opened. So the goal was always we want to touch the world, right? So we want to we want to make a dent in the world. That's that's Mana Linda's life mission is we want to make a dent in the world for Jesus. And so the thought was, what if we could start a business and then we can create a 501c3 with it? We'll just fund the nonprofit from the business, and then we can just go do whatever we want. And so nine and a half years later, that's what we've done, and that's what we keep doing. I don't have to get votes, I don't need a committee, I don't need somebody telling me I can do this or I can't. I don't need to go ask for donations. It's it's been awesome. And we've got to do some really, really cool stuff. So um, yeah, I mean, from the get-go, I mean, we've we created the nonprofit before we created the LLC for the business, I think. And I remember distinctly while we were in construction and I was showing space to people before we'd ever opened the doors, and I'm telling all of them about the nonprofit and the fact that like when you choose to come here, like this is what you're choosing to fund, like this is what we use some of the profits for. And I don't mean like one or two percent. Like we we invest heavily in the kingdom, um, because I think that's what we're called to do as Christian entrepreneurs, you know, and I think that's one of the things that's missing in the conversation today, one of many, and and that's why we're talking.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah. And what is the what what types of things are you uh giving toward, giving your profits toward?
SPEAKER_01So we've uh we built some children's homes in India. Um, we've built a bunch of water wells out in Cambodia. Um, a few thousand folks out there have got clean water um from the wells that we built. Uh in Houston, we have a feeding program. Um, I think we've given away about 11 or 12 million dollars now of food over the years to families in need. Um that that runs 363 days out of the year, so it doesn't run Thanksgiving and doesn't run Christmas Day. Um we get we get up to some mischief with with other friends doing things. Uh I've got a friend who built um a big school compound out in um Uganda. And so we were we were fortunate enough to be able to help them with some infrastructure out there. And actually, because of that, that led to some different conversations a couple years later. And um, this is kind of top secret. I don't know if we've actually gone public with this yet or not. So depending on when this podcast drops, you may be the first people to hear about it. But uh, I'm actually flying to Uganda in a couple weeks. We've uh we found some land about five hours away from where they are in a town that is desperate for a vocational school. And it just so happens that one of my good friends who is a volunteer with our nonprofit spent 37 years in education teaching vocational things. And so we said, okay, let's come check it out. And uh, I think we can probably build something here. So we're gonna build a we're gonna start a little school compound out there in uh in northern Uganda and uh figure out how to bring a little bit of life to the economy, hopefully create some new economies and then use that flywheel to generate profit so that we can create impact for the area that's self-sustaining and uh and hopefully replicable.
SPEAKER_00Love it. Mike, what's one of the business practices that helps you and your company reflect the character and ways of God? Not so much like a guiding principle, but like a specific, actionable and habitual practice that's embedded into your company.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, I think I guess it depends how you define embedded in. So I think as a business, um we're we're big believers in prayer. And so not everybody that works for me is a Christian. Actually, I think most of the people who work for me probably aren't, interestingly enough. But as a business, fundamentally, um, we're very cognizant of the fact that this is a concept we we prayed about. We think God gave us the idea. Um, co-working wasn't a thing back in 2013. I just wanted somewhere to go work, you know, that was cool. And so um, you know, that's what we did. But we've always believed in the power of prayer, and we actually have other people who pray for us. Um, we have some good friends that run an organization um called Workplace Prayer, and they they pray for companies, that's all they do, and so um we subscribe with them and um you know they pray over the business as well as obviously us. Uh we just really believe that covering it in prayer is important, and that's not to say everything's gone great, you know, or easy. Um, probably probably the other way more often than not. But um we just always believe that whether it's a good day or a bad day, you know, taking it to God is important because ultimately it's it's it's his business, not mine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, love that. Tell us about your book, Mic Drop, and what our readers are gonna get out of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, I'm a big believer in this conversation, right, around the fusion of business and faith. Um, the Bible is very clear. You know, God is entrepreneurial. Um, all the success in the Bible came through entrepreneurial endeavors. The way that they reach people was through the marketplace. Jesus spent 10 times as long of his life in the marketplace in the family business as he did doing spiritual things. I mean, take your pick of what thread you want to pull on. And so, you know, I started to get a little bit of clarity around my own life as we as we started with the work lodge project, right? Because I grew up thinking I want to do something for Jesus. And so the rhetoric back then, because I'm not quite as young as I look, um, was well, if you want to do something for Jesus, you're gonna go go serve in a church, right? Like go be a pastor, go be a missionary or whatever. And that was it. There was never any other conversation. And so I spent years of my life trying to do the ministry thing and it never worked. It never worked because that's not what I'm supposed to be doing, and it's not the way that God made me, and it's not the way that I'm built. And so when I started to have that realization, it took me so long that I don't live with regrets, but I regret that I didn't figure it out sooner. And so I wanted to find other people that were also having that conversation, and I couldn't find them, uh, or I couldn't find a lot of them. And so I thought, well, you know what? What if I write a book about this and just get some of these thoughts out on paper? That hopefully might be part of a conversation along with some other folks who are probably doing the same thing or have done the same thing in the past. Maybe I can make some more friends. And so that's really kind of the heart of where the book came from. But conceptually, I take the Bible, uh, we go from Genesis right the way through. We understand um where entrepreneurship came from, why it exists, how God communicated with the priest prophet king in the Old Testament, how that evolved in the New Testament because of the priesthood of all believers. So a little bit of theology, a little bit of doctrine, talk about spiritual warfare for the entrepreneur, not something I've ever heard anybody talk about at all. But dude, I could tell you some stories. So um, some of them are in the book. And then I talk about generosity and what we're supposed to do with money, how we're supposed to handle money, because that conversation is very wrong and that narrative is very wrong. And I think the biggest if there was one thing that could be on my tombstone more than anything else, it would be something to the effect of Mike helped entrepreneurs realize that they were the answer. And what I mean by that is not that Jesus isn't the answer, because obviously Jesus is the answer, but what I mean is we have been conditioned to think write a check, give it to the professionals, they'll go take care of it. And you're good. You've done your bit, like you're on Team Jesus, go buy another boat if you've got some leftover money. And it's so wrong and it's so fundamentally flawed, and it's not even about the money, it's about the it's about the devastation that it's bringing to the spiritual life of the entrepreneur because we were created and fundamentally wired to build businesses and take those businesses in their entirety and use them for Kingdom Impact. So it's not about 10%, it's not about 20%, it's not about any percentage, it's about everything. It's about what's the skill set that your team has and how can they fix problems in the world that need to be fixed? Who are your vendors and your partners? What's the community that you're in? And how can you leverage these things to actually bring about some kingdom impact far beyond just the money? And so I like to think of it in terms of you've got currency and you've got spiritual currency. And so the currency is the obvious one because that's what everybody talks about, right? Because everybody wants you to give to them. But then you've got this spiritual currency, which is all these other things that are incredibly valuable, sometimes more valuable than the money ever would be, because of your experience, because of your capabilities, because of your skill set, because of your competencies, because of the team that you've built and hired and trained and put around you. All of that goes to Kingdom Impact. And if we if we could get the small business guys and the big business guys to figure that piece out, we would literally fix the world. Like we would literally change the world for Jesus. No doubt about it. Absolutely 100%. And so that's the mission and that's the challenge, right? Is to help us realize that the organized religion that we now have is really, I think honestly, I like to think of it as it's there because we failed. Like we didn't step up, we didn't want to be generous, we didn't want to give of all of us. We we think our businesses are ours, right? We think this is Mike's kingdom and we hold it all in. And so, like, God brought the B team in and said, Well, look, someone's got to try and reach people. Like, if you if you're not gonna live your calling out, I got to do something else. But I don't think it was the primary goal at all. And you know, we all hear it, right? Where's the people? Well, the people are in the marketplace, like we're in the marketplace five, six, seven days a week. We are where the people are at. And I think that's why Paul didn't write more of the New Testament, but said, you know what, instead of writing, I'm gonna go make tents in the marketplace because I want to be where the people are, because that's how I can reach them. So long answer to your question, sorry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's great. Um, so what would what's a story of a time when you saw God's hand at work in the business, you know, because I I love to hear about the impact that gets made beyond the business, you know, through the charitable giving and so forth. You know, I think about just the example of Hobby Lobby and starting, for example, the uh museum of the Bible. Like that that's because what they're about is cultural transformation. And so the things that they give to, the things that our companies give to are expressions of the culture. And but in terms of something that's happened inside the company, what's the time when you saw God's hand at work inside the business?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um, you know, when we opened and um, you know, we faced some challenges. So you're you'll read this in the book. So we opened in the the summer of 2015, I think it was June, July time, uh, when we opened location number one. And so we were open for about five or six months, and we had an issue with a neighboring tenant and um some water leaked from their space into ours. And so it affected only affected about three or four offices, but but they were some of my nicer ones. And I was actually in the middle of selling one, which is how I know that we had an issue because the floors were all wet one day when we went in there to show the space. And so, you know, we we we dealt with it, we took care of it. A couple months later, same thing happens again. Um, but this time it's a little bit bigger. So now it's like seven or eight offices. And so um, you know, we took care of it, you know, we worked with a landlord and all that kind of fun stuff. Took it took a minute, but we got it, we got it figured out and um we put them all back together. And then a couple months later it happened again, uh, except this time it was a big one. And so now 40 offices were taken out for zero. And I only had about 117. So that's over a third of my space. I'm less than a year old. Um, we've already had challenges twice before. And so now we've got to figure out how do we how do we run the business that we still don't really know a whole lot about because we're not from a commercial real estate background at all. Um, how do we deliver this exceptional hospitality that we promised everybody we'd deliver? Um, but now I've got to rip up all the floors because like a third of them were wet and I can't match the colours right with the two-thirds that aren't. So we're gonna have to replace 17,000 square feet of flooring while being open and operational, not disrupting the folks who are working there. And oh, by the way, some of them were actually occupying the offices that were affected. So now I've got to move them and take away offices that are brand new and I should be able to sell, and I got to put them in there for free because they can't work in the the spaces that that they selected to begin with. So it was an interesting first year, and you know, there was some financial pressures obviously that came with that, um, just just the cost of dealing with it, right? Um, no one wanted to pay, you know, lawsuits ensue three years later and whatever else. But um I think what was really fun through it all was I can't say that I felt completely peaceful all the time, but generally everybody had a surprising amount of grace. Um the members, I mean, I think I probably had one or two heated conversations in the whole time. And I mean, it took us three months to to to fix. We had crews working every night, then we would clean at like 5 a.m. so that when folks came in at 8 a.m. they could work. Concrete floors would be like covered over with paper and stuff that have been ripped up, you know, before the new stuff went down. I mean, it was it was a construction zone, and there was a Lot of grace over the you know the business, I think with the team who were being asked to do things that was uh you know above and beyond, and also with the members that we serve. And um, you know, I think as I look back on that, I don't know if that's typical or not. I I feel as though it probably isn't, and um I'm glad that I'm glad that we had that. Um, because it was it was stressful, you know, and there was a lot going on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, Mike, I asked a lot of people that question. What's the story of a time you saw God's hand work in your business? And uh virtually every time, every response people give to that question starts with a description of uh of some adversity that they faced. So it's it's starting to make me think that maybe that's what God is wanting for us is to just walk through some adversity. So we start to see his hand at work in the business. Um, but but maybe that's not all God wants, you know. Maybe he also wants us to be able to see his hand in in the blessing and and not just in the you know, just the surprising blessings of God, but just even in the mundaness and being able to see him in those things too. But uh that but I'm just noticing that as a theme that comes up again and again and again, adversity, you know, and so anyone who's listening, just be encouraged that you might be walking through some adversity right now, but this is this is part of your story, this is part of your testimony, uh, so that you'll be able to testify of God's glory and how God delivered you. Uh, because this isn't that wasn't the first or the last flood you faced, right? I mean, didn't the basement just recently flood in the new house?
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, we did have an interesting challenge there with the basement. Um something wasn't quite quite done the way it needed to be. So yeah, we pulled it apart and rebuilt it again. But it's all good now, so life is life is okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just those things as they happen, they're so inconvenient, so frustrating, but just uh an opportunity to to see God at work and to trust him in the midst of the storm. Um, Mike, I I want to really encourage people to go check out the book Mike Drop. You've you've started to hear Mike's heart on this episode. Mike Thacker, that's T-H A K-U-R dot com, is the website at real Mike Thacker on Instagram. Um, Mike, what's uh could you leave us with a particular scripture that is just one of your favorites as it relates to business and entrepreneurship and what that means for you and our listeners?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I think one of my favorites is gonna be uh got it right here. Uh Jeremiah, Jeremiah 17, 8. It's tattooed on if listeners can't see. It's this whole thing going on here. So, you know, it's this idea of a tree being planted by a stream, you know, his leaves are always green, and um, when the heat comes, when the drought comes, depends whether you read it in Psalm 1 or whether you read it in Proverbs, whether you read it in Jeremiah, it's in there multiple times. And so I always think when when God wants to repeat himself, there's a reason why. Um, but I just love that, I just love that concept. Um you just you're you're close to nourishment, right? The idea of a tree being by a stream is that the water's right there, so those roots can always get you know what they need, um, which is to drink and survive. And I think as believers and as entrepreneurs, I think that's a truth that's absolutely there for us as well. That we want to plant ourselves right by Jesus. Like we want to stay close because when we're close and that proximity's there, we we get we get the nourishment that we need. Um, it doesn't mean that heat won't come, you know, and that drought won't come. But what it means is that you know, our leaves stay green, right? Just like the tree, because it's okay, it doesn't really make any difference. And I think, especially, you know, times like now, when you look at social media, the news, you know, political landscape, whatever else, everybody, everybody thrives on fear, right? If you're if you're selling newspapers, you're selling the news, you're selling whatever, good news doesn't sell, you know, and and and bad news does, and and fear does. And so that's what we're fed, you know, in the world system, if you want to call it that. And it's very counter to God's world, which is hope, right? And so this idea of being like this tree planted by the stream, for me, it brings hope. It brings hope to my perspective, it brings me a lens of hope to look through. And it says that I don't, I don't need to worry about who's president in two months or three months. I don't need to worry about whether we have a recession or we don't. I don't need to worry about all these kinds of things. Not that they won't have an impact in some way or another, but for my peace, for my mental wellness, for my growth as an individual, for my success as an entrepreneur, and my success in life and in business and everything else, like it's proximity to Jesus. It's it's stay close to him because he's our river, he's our source. And as long as we do that, then according to what he said, everything's gonna be okay, you know, one way or another. So, I mean, that's that's what I'd go with.
SPEAKER_00All right, guys, stay planted, stay planted by the stream, stay rooted in Jesus. Mike, this is phenomenal. Thank you for sharing some of your journey with us and uh and your wisdom. We appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Had fun hanging out. We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.