Welcome back to the Christianity of Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Uli Chi. Uli has led for-profit businesses, nonprofit organizations in the theological academy and the local church, gleaning a wealth of wisdom from each. As an award-winning technological entrepreneur, he founded a software company that developed 3D virtual reality software, revolutionizing decision making for consumers and businesses. And he's currently the board chair of the Virginia Mason Franciscan Health System in the Pacific Northwest. And he also lends his expertise to the advisory boards for the Beneroya. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. Is that close enough? Close enough. Research Institute and the Virginia Mason Institute, which are both in Seattle where he lives. And he serves as the vice chair at the Max Deprees Center for Leadership at Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, California. And he's part of, he's been part of his local Presbyterian congregation for over 50 years and has served that community in a wide variety of leadership roles. And he's the author of the new book titled The Wise Leader. Uli, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast. Thanks, Darren, for having me. Uli, when did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work in business?
SPEAKER_01You know, I think it started all the way back when I was in college. Um I had sort of a bit of an epiphany when I was uh doing my work and um I was a math major, but I also took a bunch of computer science classes at the time. This was back in the 1970s, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, it seems from today. But um anyway, I was I remember writing my first piece of code and um having this sort of wonder of seeing something you know that came out of my mind and became a reality. And it it's sort of it made me wonder if that's sort of how God might have felt in creating something out of nothing. And I sort of had this feeling of participating in God's creative work. And I think that that sort of resonance, it struck a deep chord within me that this was something I was meant to do. And so technology became um sort of a uh calling. You know, I think many people have callings to be pastors and missionaries. That's sort of the more traditional model of calling. But I think business and technology was for me a place where I found my calling to express God's mission in the world.
SPEAKER_00So did you have at that time people in your life that you respected who were doing faith integration and business well modeling that for you? You know, that's a great question, Darren.
SPEAKER_01I think um not a lot, but I had some good people in terms of helping me think about that. I know um, you know, when I I was, I I I guess I didn't say I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I became a Christian and when I was in high school through the Ministry of Young Life, which probably many of your listeners have heard of. And uh, but I came out of a non-Christian context. And and once I heard the gospel, it sort of made sense to me out of life and gave purpose and meaning to life for me. And and I became very enthusiastic about the Christian faith. And I remember my uh my mother went to a one of my young life um uh meetings, uh, sort of for parents, and she came up to my my young life leader and said, you know, um, my son used to want to be a nuclear scientist, now he wants to be a pastor. What have you done to him? So that was not good news for her, but anyway, uh, but I think the reason I tell that story is because actually my young life leader and some other folks who were wiser and obviously much more mature in the faith than I was, I think had the insight of saying, you know, you can serve God in more than in explicitly Christian vocations or this pasture or whatever. And you're naturally drawn, I was naturally drawn to it because it was such a new and such an important thing to me that I wanted to sort of give my all right for Jesus. And and uh what I discovered was that there were other ways to do that. Um and uh actually one of the folks I joined this church that I've been a part of now for the last almost 50 years, and and um we had a person named Paul Stevens. I don't know if that name brings the bell to you. Paul uh was a faculty member at Regent College in Vancouver, and he's written a lot on faith and work integration. And he early on sort of helped ground me into the notion that the marketplace can be a place of ministry rather than just simply a means to an end.
SPEAKER_00Wow, thank God for the wisdom of those young life leaders to, you know, because I think for a lot of pastors, when they have a a congregant come to them and say, you know, I'm really feeling a call to to ministry, you know, that can kind of be a flattering thing for them. It's like, oh, well, you know, welcome to the club. Right. And and, you know, this is it's sort of um, I don't know, it's gotta be at least somewhat affirming to them that other people want to follow the career path that that they took. Um and, you know, and when a student is uh fully trained, he becomes like his teacher, Jesus says. And so a lot of the discipleship that we have going on is um is not just uh helping people understand the the Christian faith and its applications in all aspects of life, but you know, the the natural progression to seminary and then to church planting or you know, and something that's a more traditional form of ministry, but thank God for the for those young life leaders.
SPEAKER_01No, exactly. And for many others, you know, I think, I mean, the very work you know, this podcast you're doing, I think is an example of trying to take both theology and business seriously, right? I mean, to see them as, you know, two part of one single fabric rather than being two different activities. And I think in my generation, I think, uh particularly in the the sort of tradition, the Protestant evangelical tradition that I grew up in, there was a strain of sort of dividing the sacred and the secular, right? That in the spiritual things matter, the physical things don't matter. The important thing was getting people to heaven, and you know, sort of what happened here was simply a means to an end or something. And and rather than taking that God's creation seriously as he did, right? He sort of God created the world for a reason, and and we have things that we are intended to do in it and and to fulfill his purpose in it. And I think that's sort of recovering that actually as a Christian uh has been a journey of most of my life. And I think you know, my book, The Wise Leader, is in part worn out of that wrestling of trying to figure out how do you live wisely in the world that is incredibly complicated in many ways, and how do you, you know, live faithfully in it?
SPEAKER_00Yes. I'm gonna ask you some questions about that here in just a minute. Um, just as we're getting to know you a bit more and your and your journey, could you share the a story of a time when you saw God's hand at work in the marketplace and maybe a business you were involved in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um, you know, I think um, at least for me, I think being faithful in the marketplace, I'm not sure this is exactly the answer to your question, so feel free to ask it again. But I think um the the reality is that being a faithful Christian in the world, I think, is um for me about looking at caring for all the people who have been entrusted into our care. You know, I think running I've I created my own business and ran a software business for many years. And um rightly you focus on there are some people who seem to make more of a difference than others, right? There's certain folks who have a particular sort of outsized contribution to work. I think one of the things that's distinctive about the Christian vision of life and and also as applied to business is that everyone matters. All of us are made in the image of God and have something to contribute. Now, it's appropriate to pay attention to those who seem to make a big difference, but I think where we are distinctively challenged is to be uh focused on those who perhaps are not, we're not naturally inclined to pay attention to. And so one of the practices that I developed over time was to make sure I was paying attention to those who were on what you might call the fringes of my business, and those who are who are the less seem like they have a lesser role, but they actually have a very important role to fulfill. And and um I think that was part of seeing God at work in them as well as in sort of the more obvious places.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and what what transpired out of that, you know, because there's a lot of um, you know, well-intentioned companies that are led by uh, you know, all sorts of of social agendas out there that are, you know, really trying to um make this a big part of their their brand. But what what was distinctive that really God was getting the glory for this?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I I think it's it's that I mean it's easy to talk about it. It's another to sort of you know put legs behind or substance behind it. I think for me, again, a very practical thing for me, every time we were looking at conference, let's just take a very practical compensation level, you know, we worked hard to much well before there was any legislation about you know raising minimum wage or anything like that, trying to compensate those who are at the lowest levels in a way that that was consistent with their needs in terms of being able to, you know, support their families. Now, admittedly, we were in a business that had the capacity to do that. So if you don't have any, you know, if you don't have the resources to do that, that's a different issue. But we did. And so we gave a lot of attention to making sure that we were not just treating people fairly, but that we were being generous to those who were on the margins. It was sort of like the gleaning laws in the Old Testament, right? That we we wanted to make sure people had enough to live reasonably and well and to recognize them. And um same thing when we were, you know, we had we had the opportunity, not every company does, but to do bonuses at the end of the year. And we tried to sort of start with those who were not at the top but at the bottom. And so to take seriously the fact that um how we treat the least of these is how, as Jesus would say later or earlier, much earlier, about um, you know, those who are the least, how we treat them is how we treat Jesus, right?
SPEAKER_00So yes, yes. And so you've written this book entitled The Wise Leader. Um how should the scriptural truth that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, as it says in Proverbs, how should that impact the way we conduct business?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question, Darren. I think um there's a lot to the fear of the Lord. I think sometimes when we hear the word fear, we, you know, we think about cowering. And there's a sense in which obviously God, who is the creator of the universe, is much bigger and more powerful than we are. So we are right to be in awe and perhaps to have a bit of fear, but I think the fear of the Lord, for me, as I've reflected on it, is recognizing, first of all, that we're not doing dealing with a thing, but with a person, right? It's actually we're called, and we know this, I think, as Christians, that we're called into fundamentally a relationship. You know, Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life and wisdom. I think sometimes we, you know, we live in a world that is in my age in my lifetime, you know, we've seen the explosion of information and knowledge, right? There's we know far more today than we did 50 years ago. And it's there's sort of this exponential growth. And yet I'm not sure we're any wiser for it, right? There's so much, there's a lot of complexity, there's a lot of issues, and and the reality is that wisdom is fundamentally about learning how to live in right relationship with God and with other people and with the world in which we live. I've I've sometimes wisdom is very hard to define in scripture. You don't really find a clear definition of it. You see examples and descriptions. But you know, one thing, one of the images I've tried to use is, you know, that wisdom is really for human beings, is learning the art of becoming fully human, as who we are created to be and how we're created to live in the world that we're that we led. And I think yeah, sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so in a business context, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think uh a couple things. Um one is that uh, and I I I've thought a lot about this as the books suggest about leadership in particular in businesses. I think uh in business, because sometimes I started my own company. I know you you started your own publishing company, and and so as an entrepreneur, a lot of it falls on you, right? I mean, I remember early on in my business thinking, you know, if I don't do something today, nothing's gonna happen, right? Because I'm the one, I'm sure you've had that sort of experience.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01And I think we've lived, we live in an in an American individualistic culture where leadership tends to be focused on the individual. And I think one of the things we learn from a biblical understanding of of wisdom and of who God is, is that God, in his very being, is a person in community, right? That we, as Christians, believe in the Trinity. That means we we understand that somehow deep embedded into who God is, is that these are persons in relationship. And I think that has implications for us in how we run our businesses and how we think about leadership. To put it sort of really succinctly, leadership is a team sport. You know, we tend to think of it as an individual sport. At least I've grown up much of my life thinking, you know, my job is to be the leader, the guy or the for women, the woman who is trying to lead a team or an organization. But I think biblical wisdom suggests that we think about that there is wisdom inherent in the community that you are leading. And that part of your challenge is to not just be the one with all the answers or all the wisdom, quote unquote, or all the insight, but to tap into the wisdom that's there in the community. And so I think learning to engage the people who are in our communities, the folks that we're leading. So it was really important to me. I I spent a lot of time in my business trying to gather folks around me who added wisdom to my own wisdom, whatever it was that I was bringing to the table. I think the other aspect of it is that uh an interesting insight I um heard from an old testament scholar is that you know, when when God created human beings, male and female, you know, there's in the in Genesis 2, it talks about how God created someone who is a suitable help to the man, the male to female to the male. What's interesting in that Hebrew word, the Hebrew scholar said is it was he translated it, it was that someone who is like but opposite, which is really interesting to me. That there's someone who is like in the sense that that is, you know, shares similar uh purpose, direction, values, but was opposite, was different fundamentally in some way. I have to admit, in my business, um I tend to be an idea guy, a strategy guy. So I tend to attract other people or idea and strategy people to my inner circle. And I have to work hard to look for those who are different from me, who bring a different voice and a different perspective. And again, I think um it's easy to look for people who are like us, but not so easy to look for people who are opposite of us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. You know, when John the Baptist, it reminds me of when John the Baptist said he must increase, I must decrease. And and and I've I find um be curious to know your thoughts on this and your experience that Jesus often increases through other people. Yes. And and so as we, but what especially entrepreneurs where you know you described, um, you know, if if I don't do something today, nothing's gonna happen. Um it that basically is I must increase, uh, he must decrease. And you know, I've got to do more, I've got to perform more. And in the process, we are putting a lid on the organization, putting a lid on people and not allowing them to contribute and bring their perspective.
SPEAKER_01Right. No, I couldn't agree more. You know, I think that fundamentally our job is to not to not be the cork in the bottle. Some someone has said that oftentimes leaders become like corks in the bottle, right? That everything has to go through them. And if it doesn't go through them, then nothing happens. And I think great leaders, the great leaders I've seen, have empower others and are willing to take the risk, right? To allow them to increase to use your language, the John the Baptist language, even at the decreasing of their own sort of status or role in a particular situation.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01That's well said.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, and and so many, so many of those important conversations that you have around a board table, you know, some of the best wisdom I've heard is the leader just needs to stay silent. You know, if the leader needs to speak, it should be last, yeah, not first, you know, to really sort of um, you know, bias the conversation, but wait until everybody else has had an opportunity to to increase because Jesus is increasing as as we decide that, you know what, I don't know everything. And and I'm certainly not gonna be the one to step up and take ownership and have to have to physically do all of these things that we're agreeing to as a team. Um, I've got to let everybody else take ownership. Um and then, you know, speak last if necessary.
SPEAKER_01No, that's right. And I think another aspect too is I mean, you think of the in my book, I talk about the image of Pentecost as being an example of how wisdom is not just communal, but it falls on a diverse group of human beings, right? It's interesting, like you say, that in say in my board context, one of the challenges for me as board chair is to make sure everyone is heard from. And that, you know, that at Pentecost, this Holy Spirit didn't just fall on Peter, didn't just fall on the 12 apostles, it fell on the whole gathered community. And I think one of the implications of that act is that God has given himself to the whole community. And there's wisdom. That's I think that's the root of where Paul gets this language of the body of Christ, that everybody matters, right? And all the least have we hold them in highest honor because they're actually more important than some of us who think we're so important because we are leaders or whatever. And and so I think practically what that means is we need to work hard at cultivating folks and cultivating other voices.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that was a great point you made about how leadership is often reduced to the to the individual. And uh and and I think that's that's what's happening when we um when we assume that wisdom is is only something that can be revealed through the the leader, we're not gonna listen to everybody else. We're not gonna our our perspective is not in a way that that we can see wisdom arising through the entire uh group, that it's gotta come sort of through the the the man on the mountain, you know, the you know, the Moses up on the mountaintop. Um, and hey, there was a time when God sort of chose to operate that way. You know, you could you could you could argue, you know, at the same time, Moses' disposition was well, well, Jethro calls him out and he's like, You're gonna wear yourself out trying to be the judge of everything. Um, you better start delegating some of this authority.
SPEAKER_01There's one there's a wonderful story in the old testament about when the holy when the spirit falls on the larger community, and I don't know if it was Joshua or someone said it was stop them, right? And he said, No, no. Yeah, must be. I wish I wish all of God's people were prophets. And that's actually what happened at Pentecost, right? So that's actually the fulfillment that God's intention is for all human beings to be his image bearers, male and female in all kinds contexts of life. Anyway, let me tell just one other story that's interesting related to that is I think um In my board experience, um, and this goes to the, you know, we tend to not only just think we are the man on the mountain, but we tend to listen to others who are like us. And one of the things I had observed um in my board experience is that there were a number of folks, board members, women in particular, who tended to be quieter and we didn't contribute as much. And so I actually um sat down with one of the women, one of the senior women who'd served on you know on major for-profit boards around the country. And I sat down with her over lunch and I said, Hey, tell me, how can I engage folks more? And she she said to me something that was startling. She said, Um, when you want my opinion on something, ask me. Sort of an obvious thing, right? And secondly, and when you hear something that you agree with, say so. I said, Really? And she said, You you would be surprised, and this is from her long experience on corporate ports, she said, you'd be surprised how many men agree with other men, but not with other women. And I I have to admit, and this is my true confessions time, Darren, that I I realized I did that more often than I than I thought. That when somebody, and it's I think we tend to we tend to agree with folks who are like us, right? That that we recognize ourselves in them. And so I one of the a couple of things I said to her, I said that was really helpful. And I started a practice in our board meetings at the very end of just going around the circle, asking everyone if they had this is one way of doing it, of of if they had something they wanted to say but didn't have a chance to say. And so that gave everyone a chance to give voice. And I I I tried to consciously affirm those, particularly women, and actually, it's not just women, it's people who come from cultures that are not so North American in nature, right? That there are that depends North American culture values, and it's not a bad thing, values individual expression, you know, being confident and so on. That's not a bad thing. But there are other cultures that sort of valued deference and respect for other people, listening to them and being slow to speak rather than being quick to speak. And I think part of my job as a leader, as a wise leader, is to create space. You know, we talk a lot about today in the wider culture about diversity and equity, inclusion, things like that, where we're trying to hear voices that have been silenced. But it's not just giving them a seat at a table. You actually have to consciously work at the culture that invites them into the process rather than just saying, well, you're here now, speak up if you want to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and this all sounds good in theory, but you know, as it's been said, we don't rise to the level of our goals or our aspirations, we fall to the level of our systems. And so while we could model this in a, I think, uh marketplace, workplace context in our churches, it is the man on the mountain model, right? Like when we show up on Sunday, we're not listening to a you know diversity, plurality of voices. We're listening to one man, generally speaking, preaching 52 times a year, unless you know they're doing the the pulpit swaps. Um I mean, how like this is what's being modeled for us in our churches that the one guy has the wisdom, everybody else needs to sit in the pew and and not in a circle and listen to what the man of God has to say. So how so really we're kind of left to those of us in the marketplace to model this because that train has kind of left the station in terms of what happens on Sunday morning. I mean, I know that we have um, you know, there are other church models where we're gonna meet in our living room and it's not gonna, I was just talking to a friend of mine that's doing this, um, where it's not the same person that kind of leads the discussion every week, but they kind of rotate the responsibility for that, more of that New Testament. Let everybody bring something um when we gather, you know, in one person a hymn, is a word, a song. So I don't know. That was um maybe more than we intended to talk about in this conversation, but here we are.
SPEAKER_01Let's go. No, I think I mean it's all one fabric, right? I mean, yeah, and I think we should we're shaped by what we learn, right? And I think we have learned for better, for worse. Um and and it is true that there are people with gifts, right? That are some people have the gift of teaching and so on. But I think I agree with you that I think the model that we have experienced mostly in our setting is that you know, there's the wise person up front who teaches, and we're all here just taking notes and you know, working at this stuff. And I think I think it is interesting, you're right, that business in that sense in some ways is ahead of the church in terms of you know implementing a model of leadership and of wisdom that is much more communal and discipleship. Not all business, yeah, and discipleship. I think that's right. And actually that's a good thing. And I think that's uh that that can I mean I think sometimes um we, you know, the church has wisdom to offer to the world, but sometimes the world has wisdom to offer to the church. And I think biblical wisdom actually learns to tell, you know, to discern and learn from both things.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. I wanted to come back to that that issue of the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and how it what that means for us as business people. And and it for me, I I tend to link what you were saying earlier about um the least of these. You talked about how you know your organizations had been taking care of the the least of these. And because why? Because Jesus says, if you've done it to me, to them, you've done it to me. If you haven't done it to them, you haven't done it to me. Um, and do you believe that Jesus is on the receiving end of everything we do in business?
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, that's an interesting way of asking the question. I think yes, it can be. He can be. I think um I think God is, you know, God's work that we do in business is not just maybe maybe another way of asking or asking or answering your question is that the work we do in business is just not just a means to something else, right? And that we should be viewing our work in business as an expression of God's mission in the world, and that what we do in the world is meant to offer praise and glory ultimately to God, right? You know, Jesus talks about in the parables about coming as the person coming looking for fruit, right? And fruit isn't just the fruit of our personal lives, but the work that we've done, right? What how we treated the world, how we treated other people in the world. And and you know, he he found in his day, as probably he would in our day, there are some who are doing good work and some who are not doing such good work. And it's interesting to me that that that his acid test, which is shows up in the the Matthew passage about the final judgment, is how you treat those on the margins is the is the real test of we're whether we're being faithful or not. And that's interesting to me. I don't, you know, I'm sure I don't know that's the only test, but it's interesting that he picked that as an indicator. So I think in that sense, you're right. It's all you've done this for me. We you're not just doing this for this person, not just doing this for this work, you're doing this for me, whether you realize it or not, right? Yeah, yeah. This is an offering.
SPEAKER_00What kind of offering is this going to be?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. Because, you know, there there would be, at least as I understand it, would be sort of gradations of the least of these, because in some sense, we're all kind of the least of these in different contexts. And so, you know, the way that I treat my employee is is exactly the way I'm treating Jesus, the way I treat my customer is exactly the way I'm treating Jesus. The the way that I present my uh my tax or financial reporting, and whoever I'm I'm presenting that to, I'm presenting it to Jesus. But but somehow I think we lose the fear of the Lord when we sort of compartmentalize and say, well, uh I'm only I'm only um relating to Jesus in this if this is like a poor person, you know, or this is like somebody that um is really, really marginalized in society, but but no, it's it's for from him and to him and through him are all things. So he's not just the source of wisdom, he's also on the receiving end of our of the wisdom or the lack of wisdom, however, you know, whatever the case, the case may be. And I I mean uh that just puts the fear of the Lord in me. Like when I think about you know, my interaction with whoever I'm gonna interact with in business, is and how I relate to that person and how I treat that person is exactly the way I'm treating Jesus. There's no more sacred secular divide, it's all it's all spiritual at that point.
SPEAKER_01Right. No, that's well said. Every human being is made in the image of God. How you treat the image is how you treat God, right? So no, I think it wreck through right, exactly right.
SPEAKER_00And and so um people can get the book the wise leader at depree.org forward slash books, forward slash wise leader. We'll have the links to all of this in the in the show notes. Um, what else do you want to say about how this book is gonna uh bless our listeners?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think I should leave that to your listeners to decide, but I I think I'm hopeful, you know. I I wrote this. Um I my hope is that it will bless old and young alike. I think in many ways I was writing it uh for those who are younger and physically younger and are earlier in their careers. So I I hope folks who are on the journey of learning to become wise leaders will find the book helpful in terms of offering biblical reflections and and how to integrate their faith in their work. And I think for those of us at my stage in life, I'm 70 and you know, I'm I'm now thinking about what the legacy of my life will be. And I think my hope is the book actually in some ways models thoughtful reflection about, and everybody has a story to tell. You know, I don't claim to have in any sense all the wisdom on this. I hope I have some things that are helpful, but I think uh it might help those who are perhaps even older who've are thinking about how do you pass on, you know, what is what is the meaning of your life and how we will you pass on a biblical legacy to those who follow you. So I hope that's helpful to them.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Well said. Well, we thank you for uh spending some time with our with me and with our listeners today and helping us um helping us think and helping us grow. We're all better for it.
SPEAKER_01It's a joy to be with you, Darren, and bless you and your work and bless all those who are listening to this.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.