Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Paul White. Dr. Paul is a best-selling author, having sold over 600,000 books. He's a speaker, psychologist, and leadership trainer who makes work relationships work. And for the past 25 years, he's improved numerous businesses, nonprofit organizations, schools, and medical facilities by helping them decrease cynicism and negative communication among their employees, create a positive workplace relationships and environments, and increase employee engagement, attendance, and productivity. And he's done a lot of research, especially since COVID, with remote and working from home employees. Clients include Microsoft, NASA, L'Oreal, MGM Resorts, and many, many more been published articles and been interviewed in all the who's who of media, the New York Times, BBC News, Fortune. And he's the author of several books, including The Five Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace, which he co-authored with Mr. Love Languages himself, Gary Chapman. Paul, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Darren. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_01Yes, sir. So you say that many of us are attempting to show appreciation to our team members, but often the team members just aren't receiving it. Why is that?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, uh, most, in fact, one recent research study showed that 94% of all companies organizations have some form of employee recognition activity. Uh and but it could be as small as you know, sending somebody an email on their birthday. Uh most are more developed than that. But in spite of that, over the past actually nine years, we're at the lowest level of employee engagement uh in in nine years. Uh, and so that the whole recognition thing isn't working. And and a lot of business leaders have some misconceptions of appreciation. And one of them is that they think that recognition and appreciation are the same. And in our mind, recognition is about performance. Uh, and it's a good thing. I mean, you want to identify people that are doing things well and call attention to it, but we really believe that appreciation is is more and broader than that, that uh our team members, our employees, our people, and uh we have value uh as people and as Christ followers, we know you know we're made in the image of God and there's just an inherent value. So lots of times, you know, the recognition stuff feels very performance-driven and only about when you do things well, and uh and also it's not usually communicated in a way that's that meaningful, it's pretty organizationally driven and and generic. So uh a lot of what we've done in the past really hasn't worked.
SPEAKER_01So, what is the difference between appreciation and recognition?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so recognition, you know, it's a good thing when it's designed well and implemented consistently, which is a big if. Uh, but it's about, you know, uh identifying goals and helping people achieve those and monitor that and then calling attention to it. Um, and often there might be uh there's usually a public sense of that. Uh, but for us, appreciation is about the person and that it's um one of the things that we found, another sort of misconception is that appreciation is just words. You know, you say a compliment or tell people thank you or whatever. And in our research with over 400,000 people, we found that words is less than half of employees' primary way they wouldn't be shown appreciation. So if you only use words, you're sort of missing uh people. So, you know, a core concept for us is that, you know, uh not everybody feels appreciated in the same way. And so you need to show it in the way that's meaningful to them. And it needs to be specific uh as well as not always just about, you know, getting things done. And and sometimes that's hard for leaders to get past. It's like, you know, yeah, we have to work and get past things. I mean, I guess uh one sort of barrier that we have to overcome is that a lot of leaders think that appreciation is just about me making people feel good. And while that, you know, we'd like that to happen, it's really about we got a lot of research that shows that when team members feel valued, uh, your organization functions uh better. It's sort of like oil in a machine, right? If you have a machine and it doesn't have any oil, it sticks, there's friction, there's heat, doesn't work well, takes a lot of effort to get stuff done. And we see appreciation being the same way that it helps team members uh work together well and get things done. And a lot of good things happen, including reducing turnover, uh, reducing absenteeism, uh, improving employee engagement, improving staff morale, improving employee uh customer service ratings. Uh so you know it's a fuller kind of thing. So an example of appreciation that wouldn't be recognition is you know, if you have a team member, I have a team member that's very cheerful and just has a sort of a bright, cheery uh personality style. And she's just delightful to have around. And I can value that um and show appreciation for that, even though it's not directly related to performance. Um, and so there's other things outside of work too that we can value uh that aren't you know related to recognizing good work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So is it fair to say that recognition is sort of a subset of appreciation and appreciation is more of the umbrella?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it could uh look that way. Um there's clearly an overlap. I don't know whether it's a subset, but there's a huge overlap because you can uh you know, because you can recognize people and not appreciate them, unfortunately. Um and so yeah, they're they're similar, uh, but uh there's some differences uh, especially I guess well, it's another difference is that recognition is really behavior-driven. I mean, you define your goal, you monitor it, and you reward it. It doesn't have much to do with attitude or anything, whereas appreciation from our point of view really has to do with heart attitude that you're valuing people. And so you can't, well, I mean, one of the challenges is there's some people that are harder to appreciate than others, and just to try to force it doesn't work well. And we always encourage leaders when you don't appreciate somebody, don't try to fake it because that won't go well. People sort of got a pretty sensitive monitor for that, and it'll undermine trust that you might have. So we encourage people to get to know your team better, and you they'll you'll find something that you value about them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh what might look like appreciation could really just sort of be manipulation, just to sort of get more out of them. So uh could we say that it's really about the motivation and the and why we're trying to affirm them or recognize them?
SPEAKER_00Or yeah, that's a large part for sure. In fact, I was doing training with a group of New York businessmen. They were we were down in Florida, and this one guy said, Well, because we talk about authentic appreciation. He says, Well, why does it have to be authentic if you can get them to believe that you appreciate them, but you don't, you know, and that was manipulation. And we had a hard to hard talk about that in front of his team. He happened to be a marketing guy, and so he was coming from that perspective. And I asked his team, um, and he kept pushing me on this, and I said, Okay, let's check. I said to his team, so what happens if you know if he shows appreciation to they said, we don't believe him now? Um, you know, so it wasn't working, but yeah, it clearly has to do with motivation and hard attitude.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, because to be motivated to truly show your appreciation for somebody, you have to you're also gonna be thinking about how are they going to receive this? And and not just, oh, well, I like words of affirmation, therefore I'm just going to give words of affirmation to everybody. And and yeah, that's probably gonna be easier uh to do than, for example, if you're not a quality time person, um, then you know, your your default is just gonna be words of affirmation. How did the love languages come into play?
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, so you know, we started with the love languages, and Dr. Chapman and I spent time trying to figure out what the equivalent was. So we talk about appreciation languages, because although as Christians, we understand the true nature of love uh in the workplace, in the secular marketplace, that creates some problems. But so yeah, we you know, we have they're the same in name as the five love languages, but they look different in day-to-day. So words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, tangible gifts, and even physical touch. And um yeah, it is it's important. It's sort of like that that issue of you know, consider the needs of others as well as your own, right? That it's natural for us to sort of start by showing appreciation in the language that's most important to us. But one of the things I tell leaders is if you just do that, show appreciation in your ways, you're gonna wind up having a bunch of many you's around you. And you may be great and wonderful, but you need different kinds of people uh to be successful in business and have a well-functioning team. So, yeah, a key part, and that's why we developed our assessment. It's an online assessment. There's a code that comes with the book, or you can we've developed a more full expanded version for different work settings that identifies not only the language, but the actions that are important because that's one of the discoveries we found over time was that just knowing a person's language doesn't mean you'll hit the mark. Because take, for example, quality time. For those of us that are older, quality time meant you know, individual focused attention from uh supervisor or boss that we would get to uh talk with them, share observations, learn. For younger employees, that's less true. It's more about hanging out with friends, with peers and colleagues. And that, you know, I tell older leaders, just because you have a team or that wants quality time doesn't mean they want time with you. You know, you may be wonderful, you may be great, but they want to hang out with their friends. And so we identify in our inventory the actions that people want and from whom they want those. Because you may want to get together with your friends and watch, you know, uh uh a football game on the weekend, but you're not going to invite your supervisor. So we we really get it specific, and that's part of the issue is uh we try to make this really practical, and I think that's why it's continued to grow, is we're not creating another to-do list for people. We're just helping them do what they're thinking about doing or trying to do, but tweak it a little bit so that it really hits the mark. We don't want everybody writing a note to everybody that not everybody wants a note, and so to find out exactly what each person wants.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So it's not about the CEO or the manager trying to be the one to deliver, to personally deliver these love languages, but it's more about the organization making sure that they know the needs of their people and that the needs are being met through through from the organization on some level, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's another misconception leaders often have is that they feel like, okay, they got to do all this. I mean, we want them to be involved, but really uh we want to teach and train, and that's our focus. We have developed an online train the trainer course that people within the organization can take, and then they can lead work groups through the process, a half day maybe of training of how to show appreciation in the ways that are meaningful to one another and and really empower team members because it's not organizationally driven down chart because that way, you know, you never it never goes up the chart that way. And also it allows appreciation uh across departments. Like you might somebody in accounting, you know, can appreciate somebody in IT helping them out with a computer problem. You know, they don't report to each other, but they value that the other person helped them out. So it really frees it up and it's person to person. Uh so it could be from, you know, the administrative assistant in one area to a supervisor in another who helped them solve a problem.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We all know the golden rule do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And and what I hear you saying is not if you're if your default love language is, for example, um, that you like to you like to give gifts, you or you like to receive gifts. So therefore, I'm going to give gifts and I'm going to give certain kinds of gifts. It's it's less about giving your love language and more about the the golden rule applied here is not uh give the same, speak the same language that you want to receive, but find out what the other person's language is and speak that language. I think about like at Christmas, we all know the person that gives the gifts that they want to receive. And you're like, uh, I could see you liking this, but this is not the kind of gift that I like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one of my visions all along has been to use the five languages of appreciation as a practical means to demonstrate the love of Christ with those that we work with. You know, I I work largely with uh secular organizations, public schools, hospitals, government agencies, you know, businesses. Uh, but you know, there are Christians throughout all those. And, you know, I think a lot of Christians don't know how to bring their faith into the marketplace. Um, and and more culturally, we sort of feel constrained about that. But clearly, you know, I think kindness uh is uh sort of the practical implementation of love. And if we can show kindness and encouragement to people in the ways that are meaningful uh to them, uh it can really create a relational connection. In fact, I mean that's why people don't leave when they feel valued, because we have research that shows that most people leave a job not for more money, but they leave it because they don't feel valued and appreciated. So you can create a stickiness, a connectivity with your team by showing appreciation to them and teaching them how to show appreciation to one another. Think about the bond, the strength of the bond that's stronger uh between, you know, let's call it six people, and you draw strings all across that versus just you and one person. When people care for each other, uh they're more likely to stay and and things uh work well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So for those who who are not familiar with the five-level languages, words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, tangible gifts, physical touch. Um, and I know that you've studied the the distribution of these gifts across the general population. Um, how are they distributed on a percentage basis approximately?
SPEAKER_00So physical touch. Let me let's we'll start with that one because that's all people question. Um, you know, in our minds, it's it we've it's largely about spontaneous celebration, right? It's a a high five when you finish a project, a fist bump when you make a sale, maybe a congratulatory handshake. Cross-culturally, because our our materials are in 25 languages, um, uh, you know, a pat on the back is the most accepted uh physical touch. So it's not a group hug or whatever, you know, but it but that's less than 1% of the workforce in the US, mainstream US. Um, words of affirmation is the largest group, but it's about 45, 46% of the population. The key part about that is about 30 to 40 percent of people don't want to go up in front of a large group and be recognized in front of a large group. So praising them, you know, at some awards banquet or something can really go wrong. So you've got to get it right. And and it can be, you know, verbally or it can be written. Uh the key is to be specific, what you value and uh why um and and call attention to that. Quality time is the next one. It's about 26% of so about one of out every four uh employees value time. And again, you need to find out, you know, is it individual time with you or somebody value or group time? Had a number of administrative assistants say, I don't want time with my supervisor, they're pretty intense and I'm sort of shy, but I want to hang out with my friends. Access service is the third, that's about 21, 22%. So one of out of every five employees. And that's not rescuing a low-performing employee. It's more a common example is when you're working on a time-limited project and you're just banging away at it, trying to get it done. What's something somebody could do to help out to make that go better? Whether that's maybe answer the phone or your emails for a while a day so you keep focused on it, bring you in lunch so you can keep working on that, um, or even, you know, maybe delegate some clerical work, you know, go copy stuff or print off some stuff for you. So uh for acts of service people, words can actually be negative. Uh, they sort of live by, you know, words are sheep. Don't uh don't tell me you care and support me, show me. And so they're important to find out. And and often you need to find out what would be helpful to them because what you think is would be helpful, like if their desk is a wreck or whatever, and you want to clean it up, that's probably not the best, but you can do something else. And then tangible gifts, which is used a lot in rewards and recognition programs, is actually the lowest. It's about 7%, 6 to 7% of the population choose tangible gifts as their main way to be shown appreciation. So companies waste a lot of money on giving things uh that people don't want, they're gonna take it, but you know, it's not gonna have the impact. Uh now, tangible gifts can have more impact if they're paired with one of their other languages. So that if it's time or words that you do. Key thing about gifts, it has to be personal. If you're giving the same thing to everybody, you've, you know, that's fine, but it's not having much impact because for people that value gifts, it's the thought that counts. It's that you've taken the time to think about what they want and try to figure that out. So uh that's it's pretty key.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It seems like words of affirmation in in some ways would be the easiest to give, right?
SPEAKER_00Because it's it doesn't for outgoing people, for really shy people, it's not. And so we teach people how to do it uh in a written form because that way you you take away that face-to-face kind of thing, and you sort of control the timing of it, can think about your words and all that. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Generally speaking, yeah, I think words is the easiest to implement.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, because time, service, gifts, uh those are going to require your some of your most precious resources.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. So I I wonder if if it's just uh how the the supply affects the the demand.
SPEAKER_00I think there's part of that. I think it's also been part of our acculturation in workplaces to to use words. Um uh and because I think it's changing some, although not all. I mean, there's been boundaries uh around work and non-work. And I think COVID and the pandemic broke down a lot of that. We see that work affects our lives, our lives and what's going on outside affect work. And so, and then obviously, you know, working from home uh is sort of permeated that boundary. So I think there was some of it that time outside of work really wasn't allowed. And the type of work, I mean, if you're at the back of a machine in a factory, you know, trying to spend time with somebody that doesn't work well or even medical services. So uh there's some cultural issues that impact that as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And for those of us, and I know you've done a lot of research on this lately, especially since COVID, uh, those of us who are managing leading remote teams, um uh what is unique about the application of the love languages and appreciation in this environment?
SPEAKER_00Well, in in one sense, uh it's not that unique in that everybody still wants to be valued and appreciated. They're uh they feel appreciated in different ways. The specific actions differ, right? Because quality time, how do you spend time with you're in two different settings? And so one of the things we encourage people is to uh, and we did research and found that people like to connect by video, um, not necessarily video conferences, but you know, a one on one. And so, but when you're working from home or a remote worker, you don't know what they're doing, and so you don't want to interrupt them. So we encourage people to send a text or a chat or whatever and say, Hey, you know, I'd like to touch base, uh, when would be a good time? And the other thing that really And then you set that up and do it. But the other thing that's important is that when we work together in the same space, there are times for informal conversations. Like I just had a team member and we were chatting about uh the Chiefs, you know, we're we're Chiefs fans. And so uh, and whether how well they're gonna do or not in the playoffs. Well, when you have conferences, you know, video conferences, there's not a lot of time for that usually. I mean, you're on task, you're doing stuff. And so we really encourage uh teams to uh get on a little early because it's sort of like you go in the conference room at work a little early, five minutes early, or you stay a little bit. So provide time for that uh for people to chat some. Uh or sometimes you just have to proactively try to set up a time to touch base. But a key part about that is that it needs to be about personal life. That uh if you just ask them about a work project or whatever, doesn't really do anything. It's that people need to feel connected that you care about them as a person and what's going on in their life, not just are you getting your work done.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. One of the things I've started doing over the last year or so is um with our virtual team sending, communicating with gifts or gifs, however you say it. And um, and it, you know, it's just something kind of fun, uh just a little more interesting than communicating the same message with just text. And yeah, I actually had one of our new team members, as soon as I sent her one, she responded back and said, Yes, it was something like yes, exclamation point. And she literally said, Gifts are my love language.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, why is that?
SPEAKER_00You know, we just there's a sense that uh we feel valued. We grow up in different contexts. Uh um, and a lot of this comes from growing up. And, you know, our moms made macaroni and cheese for us when we were sick, and you know, some comfort food works, or uh, you know, when we're going to bed, I know my my wife and my daughter, you know, they rub their kids' backs when they're going to sleep, you know, and there's a sense of touch and being there and being accepted, and uh, or working together, getting getting help on a project, or hanging out. I grew up fishing with my mom, and it was just quality time being together. So it's sort of formed uh as we grow up, and we just have sort of different um, you know, communication channels where the messages get through. Interestingly, we also find that people are most easily offended in that same language because that's the the channel. So, words, if you just say a little something, that can really offend somebody or upset somebody where somebody else bounces off of them. So um it's an interesting dynamic.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. And so how do people find out what their team members' love languages are? And I I know you've tell us about the assessment at which I think has been taken now by 400,000 people, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It's called the motivating by appreciation inventory. All of our resources can be found at our website. It's it's appreciationatwork.com. It's the word at, not the at sign. So appreciation at work.com. And it's under assessment. And um, it's uh the basic version identifies your primary, secondary language of appreciation, the least valued one, that's sort of your blind spot, specific actions that you like. Our more expanded version goes into how you don't want to be shown appreciation so people don't sort of make a mistake. And also uh lots of uh those versions are specific to industries. So whether you work in a school, the action items are related to school settings or medical or professional trades, ministries, all different kinds of things. And uh and you know, they're pretty low cost, it's 25 bucks a piece, which in the world of work is not that much. Um and we also can create a group profile so that you can see and learn how everybody else wants to be shown appreciation. Um, and uh it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to take, and then it generates an uh individualized report for for you uh and and others. And then we created an online train the trainer course uh with videos and uh handouts, facilitators guide, all that kind of stuff. So you can don't have to hire somebody to come in. We've got people you can hire, but you can do it yourself uh for your team or teams and and take people through on on what this is about and and how to make it work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I also wanted to ask you about gift giving. So we just came through Christmas and uh a lot of us gave gifts to team members and may or may not have done it the right way or the wrong way. Um what what is your your counsel when it comes to gift giving in the workplace?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, gift giving in the workplace is done terribly, usually, um, and especially around the holidays, because what what happens, right? You know, a a fruit basket shows up from your printer, you know, or one of your suppliers or vendors or whatever. And it's like, okay, I'll eat the fruit, but you know, it doesn't have anything to do with you. So gift giving, couple things. One, it needs to be personal. So if you want to do it business-wise, give a gift from you as a person to the person with whom you connect with at your supplier or customer or whatever. Uh, secondly, we know that gifts are more impactful when they're not expected. So don't give a gift at Holly, uh, you know, at Christmas. Wait until late January or early February. You know, don't, don't, don't do Valentine's Day, that might be misperceived, but you know, but you know, sort of not expected. And it's about them. And so that takes some research. You talk to their assistant or a colleague and find out, okay, you know, sports, you know, I'm a Chiefs fan. I grew up in Lawrence, Kansas, where the Jayhawks are big in basketball. You give me a K-State thing, I'm gonna find a friend to give it to because you know, you you missed the mark. So you you just do a little research and do it that way. And it's really about the thought. It doesn't have to cost a lot. In fact, I had a friend tell me a story. He went to a, you know, a convention and found something that I don't know, maybe it was like a Star Wars themed kind of thing, uh, and it was free. And he took it back to a colleague who was a Star Wars geek, and it was cool, you know, that he thought about them. So yeah, unexpected and uh and about being the thought. And and a key thing to also know is that people that value giving gifts don't necessarily value receiving gifts at the same level. Um, and so it's just because this person gives a lot of gifts, that may not be his or her language of appreciation.
SPEAKER_01Uh Dr. Paul, how do you uh explain the biblical basis uh when you when you teach this to Christians? Um, we need the biblical language to think about appreciation. This is probably somewhat self-evident, but um what would you say on that?
SPEAKER_00Well, just like you said, I mean, the golden rule, you know, to do on others as you would have them do unto you. And and, you know, at a root level, we have to motivate ourselves, right? But at some point we'd like to know that somebody else values what we do and who we are. And so that makes sense. And, you know, I just think it's it's love demonstrated practically. I mean, being kind and being encouraging and positive. And there's lots of verses throughout, uh, especially the New Testament, about encouraging one another. And um, in our or in my mindset, uh, you know, appreciation is sort of about the past. You appreciate something that somebody's done or demonstrate. Encouragement is about the present or the future. We're coming alongside to encourage them and help them continue and keep going. So uh yeah, I mean, I think it's just uh to me, it it just makes so much sense uh that it's trying to communicate uh love and encouragement in ways that are meaningful to other people in the way that's meaningful to them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well said. And so the book is the five languages of appreciation in the workplace. Um, anything else you want to say to folks about how they can uh hear more and and give us that website URL again as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just uh appreciationatwork.com. And we have all kinds, it's sort of our our mothership about, I mean, we've got stuff about assessment, about books uh in different languages, training materials, we've got uh a whole resource page of articles. We do research, have those there, podcasts, videos. So that's the place to go and explore. And I guess I would just say, you know, in in parting that it's easy to sort of think about this, but uh I always say start somewhere with somebody. You know, uh I work sometimes with engineers and uh, you know, high-level leaders, and they want to do a Gantt chart and you know, Excel spreadsheet and get it all planned out, which is fine, but lots of times you just got to start. And and the way to pick is just somebody that in your daily life that if they didn't do what they do, uh your daily life would be a lot tougher. Um, sometimes we we know that people leave when they don't feel valued, so you want to identify key team members you want to don't want to lose. Um, and then people that are discouraged, uh, that are just you know running up against obstacles in their tasks and projects and and encourage them. So find somebody, use words if you use it privately and be specific, that's usually going to go well. Um, but then you know, uh uh find out, have your team members take take the inventory and then uh work on it together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I know you're not big on um, you know, having sort of blanket approaches to appreciation. Uh, but if if there was a something that we could like, for example, I remember meeting this guy uh a couple of years ago, and he said, you know, one of the big things, the things that I'm really big on is sending people uh a happy birthday text. And I had maybe a I don't know, five minute conversation with this guy, and he has texted me on my birthday every year. I I honestly don't even remember his name, what he does, anything else about him, other than the fact that he texted me on my birthday. Like if it feels a little bit uh contrived and you know systematic, but like if there was something like that that maybe isn't going to feel like that uh to the to the recipient, what's something that we could start to put into practice um and start appreciating people in in more tangible, memorable ways today?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, two things. One is use a person's name. We like to hear our name. And if you're writing it, make sure you spell it correctly, because otherwise it doesn't feel real personal. And then secondly, and it can be very spontaneous. I mean, you're at the grocery store and the checkout person, and just look for something that you could call attention to. Say, you know, that's a cool button you got, or you know, uh, you know, I like your shoes, or you know, whatever it could be. And just little things, look for little things that you can call attention to their uniqueness and say, you know, you've got a really nice smile. It's cool. I like it when you smile. So it doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be about performance, uh, but just something unique about them. You know, don't make it up or contrive it, but you know, uh, and it it you'll be amazed at the the the smile and response that you get just in in that little sort of spontaneous interaction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. Dr. Paul White, thank you so much for helping us grow today and um helping us to be more intentional about the way we show appreciation to those around us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my pleasure, Darren. Thanks for having me. I'm uh glad to interact with you about this.
SPEAKER_01We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.