Welcome back to the current college. On this episode, we're joined by Larry Julian. Valerie is a best-selling author, speaker, and coach who helps CEOs, entrepreneurs, and small business owners lead with their faith and values. His books include God is My CEO, God is My Coach, God is My Success, and Five Bold Choices. In addition to many churches and nonprofit organizations, his clients have included 3M, American Express, ATT, and many other companies that we're all familiar with. And he lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Larry, I'm excited to have this conversation. Welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yes, thank you very much. It's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_02Larry, when did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work in business?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah. The insight from that, or the aha moment for that, is I was the time I was putting on these um, I was working with leaders and CEOs, and the aha moment uh was you could pray to God on Sunday, but Monday through Friday, you just lived in a bottom line world, and it was really hard to live out your faith in that bottom line world. And so it was an aha for me to just see my my perception of a CEO with someone that's in charge and just has their act together, and really the realization it was more like a deer in the headlights, uh, they're human, and you could be a good leader, you could be intelligent, uh, have many different skills, but there are times, particularly in a in a challenging business world, where you have you don't, A, you don't have the answers, and B, the the nature of business also is that there are politics and conflict, and so most people do not really know how to understand how to uh navigate conflict. And also, uh, particularly, well, anyone that's quote going up the ladder, at some point I I think a business leader would understand that you know what, some sometimes there are difficulties that are beyond me. And I think I need a higher source of wisdom. And really ultimately at the end of the day, that comes through uh Jesus and uh the principles of God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So when uh when a Christian CEO seeks you out uh for your consulting uh from a biblical perspective, like what is generally the issue that they're wanting you to help them address? Oh boy.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a variety of issues. I mean, on a just a uh secular type basis, a lot of it really revolves around uh oftentimes just conflict resolution. And in one particular form or fashion, it could be um not a difficult conflict, uh, but uh you know it's something where you need to have the ability to bring people together and it's just not coming together. And then there's some pretty serious conflict where you've got people together and uh it's it's harming the organization and and it and it requires bold action. So oftentimes when approach, it's if I'm approached, oftentimes it's just not necessarily here the five steps where they well, while there is a process, it's not as easy as, you know, well, here are the steps and everything will be fine. It's more of um understanding number one the leader and what they're really facing in the way of challenges. And then really it's it's a guidance on how they use their gifts and abilities to navigate, but also uh uh setting a stage for humility to be open and honest, where oftentimes leaders feel they can't. So it's a combination of many things that could lead to um eventual success. And oftentimes it goes really the the the truth about life in itself, even if it's you know, and you want to be a Christian, um it's difficult. And and so I think it's important for either leaders to connect on a uh heart-to-heart basis, as well as have the humility to seek help.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Can you give us an example of one of those business conflicts that you came in to help mediate and how you brought in biblical principles to help navigate that?
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, um I would put it in two parts. I uh, you know, initially, if it was in the beginning, um there were times where uh you know I wasn't bold in bringing out you know Christian principles saying we'll do this and everything will be fine. I basically, you know, it's through my work of um applying the principles of Jesus, and um without at this point, uh you know not even necessarily re-reasoning, saying, well, Jesus said to do this kind of a thing, but there are certain principles in which you can live out and communicate. You know, simple things like uh listening, uh the concept of servant leadership is putting others first. And so if let's say you're in conflict or there are two different divisions in conflict, the concept of listening to the other divisions, uh problems, whatever, usually doesn't take the case. It's usually about you know a conflict and you're hurting us, and what a, you know, stop doing that. So you can interject uh the principle of Jesus in the most bottom line business world uh and be successful uh by applying that. If you take it to another level, I mean, you know, and then this there's another level where uh let's say you have Christian leaders coming together and talking to themselves, uh that's a wonderful thing in and of itself, also, because you're learning and growing from others' pain and mistakes, and it's allowing this atmosphere to be open. And most often, uh, at least what I found was it's very difficult for a leader to be open for fear of getting burned or getting fired. So there's a lot at stake, and it takes a lot of courage to have that level of openness. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can you give us an example, like a real-world example of um one of those conflicts?
SPEAKER_00Let's say I can't name names, but um yeah, I'll give you one example that I remember. So uh there was uh I was doing a strategic planning session and for a leadership team, and basically the CEO of the company was a hard-driving bottom line guy, and let's say he did not have much social skills, the leadership team uh were basically in fear of this guy, and it was a difficult thing because uh the leadership team was really stymied, and and it was from the top, the leader was creating a culture of fear, even though he may not have known it, but uh that's what he was doing. And the leadership team was uh really struggling, and they wanted to be supportive of the leader and of course the entire organization, but it was really difficult because of the nature of how this guy operated. And so uh they had fear of um approaching him. So at first I had a session with these people and and uh convinced them of sorts to saying, look, you're gonna have to step up and be perfectly honest and to you know share it in, let's say, a loving way versus in a conflict way. So as I I basically coached that leadership team to um some of the principles of just um, you know, so how do you make a connection and how do you connect together and what's the way to get conversations going? And really at the very core were you know, the basics of, and again, it goes back to Jesus of listening, so you know, serve, you know, be more of a servant leader, um uh allowing space to be open and honest, you know, some basic things. So we went through that process, and then we had this next step of the leaders uh meeting with the CEO, and I was still the facilitator, and at first um, you know, it was uh difficult for there was a lot of silence, and so it it took some prompting on me to uh you know start to open up. And it there was a God moment there where um you know we're having this difficult conversation, they're talking about these difficult things, and uh, but they're doing it with courage and with a level of respect. And it was kind of this a God moment where the the CEO basically he didn't break down crying, but he definitely came clean as it relates to, you know, he paused, these guys were ready to get, you know, like the riot act, you know, from this guy. And he paused and he goes, you know what? I think you guys are right, and I apologize. And he just opened up and and shared about kind of who he was and why that is, and they immediately uh they you know they forgave him. And you know, I wouldn't say it was a crumb by our session, but it clearly was a moment of um where God was in the moment because I remember this one moment where it was tense, and um but it there was a breakthrough. So that was that was one uh instance. There was another instance, and I'll just share this quickly. So I was doing a a team building session between two divisions, and uh they were they had been at odds for a long time, and there was a lot of just a lot of bad blood and fighting between them, and um, you know, it it was a very difficult conversation to have to just um break through all the past stuff that's going on, but just to have then some honest conversation, and it's amazing, you know, and I believe this is where Jesus just kind of entered the room because if he could just set the stage for people to be honest with what they're saying and create a stage of safety for people to say it, amazing things can happen. And you know, sometimes it doesn't, and but there are times that it does. And when it does, it has a major breakthrough and a major influence because it's something that has a lasting effect. People get it. Yeah. So we should be fortunate when those things happen. But yeah, you gotta keep at it.
SPEAKER_02And I know that you did a profile on Ken Sandy in your in your book. Are you and I'm sure you're familiar with his peacemaker model. Is that one that you subscribe to?
SPEAKER_00I do, and I and I think, yes, I think that that's uh a great aspect of you know, yes, being a peacemaker is really uh an important role. Yeah. You know, it really is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, could you for our listeners who might not be familiar, could you just kind of briefly outline that and how you've implemented that?
SPEAKER_00Well, for me, I mean, I've kind of uh yeah, I I will start uh first, I'll just relay it to me personally is what I go through. First and foremost, be before every session or even just a coaching session, um, I try to humble myself before God and saying, look, Lord, um uh let me be an instrument of your grace. And so I want to have the ability to truly be a good listener and understand it. And typically before I have, let's say, a team building session, I meet with each group separately and just ask us honest questions. So what is going on? You know, tell me what, you know, kind of like A, if there's a conflict with another, whether it's another person or another group, um, you know, step number one is the ability to listen and really ask open-ended questions to understand where someone is coming from. And um so and that's it's not an easy thing to do. Uh I sometimes I mean in an ideal world, you'd like to say build a you know, a groundwork for that discussion, but sometimes you don't have that opportunity. You're in conflict, you need to resolve it. And so uh I mean, on the before the meeting takes place, I meet with both parties, understand where the leader's coming from, understand the issues that are underneath or what they communicate to me, and then understand so where do you want to go? What is the goal? So, what what do we want in terms of uh so uh with us coming together? What does that go look like? And and what are the benefits of that? What are where where are we going as a result? So I do that with both particular groups, I do my listing with both particular groups, and from there I usually create an agenda that uh moves them forward. And typically, this is you know, I mean, each one is a little bit different, but the first part uh there's always some form of icebreaker of sorts, and um, there's a wide range to icebreakers from goofy things to do, which I don't usually, you know, although I enjoy them, I mean that may not be appropriate for a real serious conflict resolution. But an icebreaker in terms of um getting people to share about themselves a little bit, you know, and just kind of you know, when you said, well, how did you get to where you're going, and you know, or share a story about that. And and really what that does is hopefully open up this opportunity for people to see someone not as a boss or an adversary from the other side, but a human that has a uh, you know, a husband and wife and has kids and uh you know is uh does things that they're they're not bad people. Um so you know, creating that openness and some level of um connection on a human level versus a corporate business level. And that's an interesting thing to do because usually it's so locked in that uh this guy, this is the VP, so-and-so, and the guy's a jerk kind of thing. So he's got these kids, and yeah, I went through with the top kids growing up too, and that kind of thing, and there's a connection there. So I try to create that atmosphere first, and uh, you know, I've employed uh quote team-building activities. I keep them in perspective. Some are kind of goofy and people get turned off by that, but some are good, and you know, you employ that. So you have that in your toolbox in terms of what's appropriate for that particular group. So, you know, if I've done my homework and I've learned about both parties, they've shared me with me the different uh things that are going on, and then I create an agenda that just you know brings them from point A to point B, from getting to know each other, to then getting the issues on the table and and eventually uh having a discussion around those issues and collecting them, uh and then and then depending on where the people you know where you want to go, sometimes it could just resolve a conflict and then you just move on. Or it is okay, so what's the plan for moving forward? What are the steps? And you know, I joke about this all the time, I still use it, but the what about Bob movie baby steps, and and I said that that is I still to this day think that that's the way to go. You know, it's setting expectations. If you've been in conflict for a long time, you're not gonna just sing kumbaya on one day and then just be pals the next. Maybe you will, and maybe it'll work out. But usually it's a process where you then develop a better relationship and things need work on both sides to commitments. So I say baby steps, go back and start doing the little things that are building trust back in the relationship. So it's a journey.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I think one of the most powerful steps in that peacemaker process is to take the log out of your own eye. Like he talked about, you know. That's right. That's right. As a facilitator, as a mediator, how do you help the the different parties take the log out of their own eye, as Jesus said?
SPEAKER_00That's right. Well, and this is for me personally. I I first thought I'd uh absolutely correct. And I take the log out of my own eye. So I try to um set the stage and you know, um, let's say, just for me, in terms of uh not even though let's say I'm not part of the group and and conflict, I will share something that shows some vulnerability to how I got to where I am or some imperfection. Um, starting with the the logout of your eye, it's a tough thing, but it's such an important first step. There are people that have strong egos and they cannot uh it's difficult for them to just start out with uh, you know what, I made a mistake, I'm sorry. Uh it's in an ideal world, it would be good to just you know get to that moment as quickly as possible. But it's a it's a process. I think that it's it's a process and a journey. And if you could just start small by you know opening up or even saying, you know what, I you know, I don't want to go there now, but let's at least agree on this part and and going from there. But it is uh take it a step further just in general, I would propose to all leaders, all people, um we all have well I'll start with just myself there's always an internal battle between um humility and control, and you know, we all have it to some degree, and and on in general I would say, just because we're human, we have a tendency to lean on the controlling part, it's the thing that we're in control of. And so the humility part really is uh you a understand that you may have a weakness, and B, uh you may feel a little difficult of I don't want to be vulnerable. Uh but ultimately at the end of the day, if you just bring in you know your relationship with the Lord, um the ideal situation, no matter what, is you have to start with humility. That law it's sort of like, okay, I'm in a partnership with God, and I've always had that creative tension, and I always have to keep it in its right balance because I have a tendency to go, I gotta bring here God, and then you know things go awry. I think what I've learned in my old age, particularly in my old age, is I'm losing memory, I'm not as fast as I am, and those kind of things. You know, the more I'm depending on God, the more the humility that I have, which in turn, even though I may not be as quick and bright and fast as I was before, maybe I have some more humility and wisdom and discernment. I'm not sure that can help in a certain way. So, anyway, long story short, um, we all have it individually and as a group. It'd be a great practice if every day, every moment, you know, morning and night, you wake up, or in the morning you wake up and you know, uh you're humble to God, and at the end you say thanks and you're humble to God, and you start over tomorrow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Larry, what does it take to make the culture of a company more Christ centered?
SPEAKER_00Well, first and foremost, it starts at the top, and so in an ideal world, that leader from the top is is uh demonstrating through actions and words. And um that would uh that would be the first and foremost thing. And I I can't remember it's like let let who you speak it goes uh let who you are speak for what you believe. And so you need to go to work in the morning and being and ideally who you are as a follower of Christ, um you don't necessarily have to words and scriptures or anything like that, but you demonstrate you know love and understanding and conflict resolution, service, all the cores of of Jesus Christ can be telegraphed through you every single day you walk in, just being by being who you are. That'd be the step number one, and I guess step number two is that we're always growing, or you want to be growing, and we're human, and so we're never on a perfect trajectory towards towards Christ. We're this like this is like this, and that's who we are, and so it's hard to accept. I mean, I'm if I was looking in the mirror, it's hard to accept it, but in it basically probably is the best way to go. You can't go wrong if you start with humility and you're turning to the Lord for your help and the partnership of your your day-to-day activities.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So the focus would be more on your inward kind of private life and then the anticipating that that's gonna have a spillover effect to the rest of the culture.
SPEAKER_00That's right. I I would say private life meaning well, private life and family and doing those things. I mean, yes.
SPEAKER_02I mean your inward your inward uh spiritual life life, yeah.
SPEAKER_00In other words, I if I walk into, let's say I I have a meeting with a client at 10 a.m., you know, the first thing I do is I just by natural I I prepare for it always. You know, whatever that meeting is, you know, I want to know who that person is, what are their needs, I mean, you know, what's the nature of the relationship? And I'm in prayer and just saying, Lord, how can I be you know your servant today and what does that look like? And so, you know, and then just in general, without having, let's say I'm not going anywhere today, I still will wake up and saying, you know, Lord, you know I just uh you know acknowledge you and guide me in this day, and and so just try to be uh in tune to what's going on uh ideally throughout the day. And I would say, particularly in business, people, you know, they come to work and then it's like it's off to the races, they're flying here and there and here like that. It would it's very easy to lose your um perspective, I suppose. I mean, as you go about the day, I mean there's natural conflict, you're under the gun, you've got a deadline, there's stress, and uh you know, at least what's important is to recognize when your stress is increasing, and just take a pause and that's just be in prayer and just okay, put it in perspective here. And um, so it what I've done, you know, I always, you know, after we let's say we have this big strategic planning session, how do you break it down to a day and then so teach us to number our days are right that we may have a heart of wisdom? So you've got to focus for today, but then within the day, you have a multitude of moments, choice points, where you're interacting, and at any given moment, you can either rise above or just you know follow, fall below, or fall prey to something. You know, I I've been out of business for a while, but I just remember being in business, and there are just certain people I would interact with, and it would just set me off. They would just you know I'd just get frustrated. And it would set off my day, you know, where I would uh you know get negative. And I think that it's important to just be in tune to the Lord and allow yourself to reset throughout the day, just doing your best. And that's that I think it's uh such a practical and important thing, you know, while you're in your busy day, being the best you can be, but uh being the best you can be with the guidance of the Lord as your partner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But in terms of so influencing the culture and really make if my goal is to make a my workplace, my company more Christ-centered, do you think it's enough to really just focus on sort of yourself? Uh you know, I'm thinking in terms of just the way that um the godless influences on our culture as a as a as a whole are so aggressive about advancing that that agenda and and just really rewriting the narratives about about society and so forth. Um is it enough for for Christians to just sort of continue on continue on with the St. Francis de Vassisi quote as being the you know, really the the guiding principle, the operating principle for faith in the workplace? I'm referring to uh um share the gospel always, if necessary, use words, uh, you know, which is to say, if necessary, actually be proactive about um making changes to the culture that you influence. Right. Um what are your what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00You know, if in terms of you know, let's say being more proactive, um, I mean, first of all, I I would start that we all have different personalities on how we communicate with others and and approach others. And um and also there's been, I had many different discussions slash debates with certain Christians that really need to you know get out in front and share the gospel and try to and again with the uh you have to look at the context. Are you doing it just within the world outside of business or door inside business? And so generally, you know, at least what I found when I was in the business world, there was there was definitely a danger to be proselytizing or to try to, you know, being overt uh in sharing your faith. Um and so uh and there was a sensitivity about that. At the same time, uh, you know, that's why I said, at least at step number one, uh at least have the way you conduct your business and how you conduct your business does reflect Jesus Christ. And so beyond that, though, for those people that you know, everyone has a different level of boldness, there's nothing wrong with either a um, you know, let's say in their assertionists, they want to create a uh a faith-based group outside the company, or or it could even be within the company if the person, you know, let's say a small private company or what have you. And so uh each of us have a level of boldness on how they want to share their faith. And I would encourage one way or another, you know, however that you want to do that, I think that you should, keeping in mind that you want to uh you know respect all. And so I think as long as you're appropriate on how you're communicating it and how you're gathering, and um I would say that uh depending on the person you are, you know, you go some people will be full boat and be open and you know go from there, and some people are prefer to be more quiet and go that route. But I think either way, uh you know, I think that it's an important thing to be able to share your faith or at least connect with people, uh, and you can do that more openly by just being open and you know asking questions. And that's the other thing, is that oftentimes I've always gone with as a facilitator, I've always found asking questions more powerful than making statements. I guess that's that's the way that I viewed it because sometimes you make a statement and it elicits a pushback. If you ask a question, uh it allows people to think and respond in the in their own way. And it just seems to be, you know, at least for me, it's it's it's always been a better way uh to uh approach things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, I think the problem is the way that if if we're wanting to share our faith, which we should, uh doing it in a way that is basically irrelevant and kind of tone-deaf to the workplace uh situation. And you know, and what I mean by that is I'm gonna start out getting into debates with my coworkers about you know um creationism versus uh evolution and you know, all of these kinds of things as opposed to the a more winsome way to go about it is to let people know why you do things the way that you do them. So that's sort of making the connection between your behavior and the example that you set, and like Simon Sinek says, people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. They need to know why you do it. Um it's not just enough to for them to see what you're doing. At some point, they need to know why you like I just had a um uh a consulting call with uh YouTuber with yesterday who has got just a massive platform, and he wanted to have a chat about just staying above board with his marketing strategies and and the way that he writes his his sales emails and not wanting to be uh deceptive or anything like that when it comes to uh limited time offers and and all these kinds of things that uh content marketers have to uh have to deal with. And and and so he wants to make sure that his actions are lining up with uh his um his message.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I think you make I think you know you make a great point here on the on the why you do it. I think that's a great way to go. Yeah when you get at that. So yes, I s I support that 100%. The why it can open up just a great conversation, and you know so yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Be ready to give a reason for the hope that's within you, you know, which is not just about um you know going through the Roman road and and getting somebody to pray a prayer of salvation, but they want to know why do you conduct yourself in this type of a way in the in the workplace. And and that example is is incredibly powerful because ultimately what we're trying to do is not, as you said, proselytize. The the goal is to make disciples, right?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And the goal is to disciple the entire culture, because that culture is discipling people. The culture is leading people in a particular, and certainly the leaders have the most significant influence over that over that culture, but we all do, regardless of what level of the organization um we're we're stewarding.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Um it could be at all levels.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So God is my CEO, God is my coach, God is my success, and five bold choices are the books. Uh LarryJulian.com is the website. Uh Larry, as we wrap it up here, any parting um uh calls to action you'd like to share with our listeners?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I I guess if any parting words is um, well, one uh I would say goes back to I've been using it forever, but Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 about trust in the Lord with all your heart and not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he'll direct your paths. I would say that that still is such a core basic, you know, just starting with trusting in the Lord with all your heart. Uh and the operative word is all, versus 97%. Uh and the other what I like about is uh about leaning not on your own understanding. It took me a while to you know kind of reconcile that, but it it was kind of uh more like um you know not be arrogant about I have all the answers, and so this is my understanding, and have a level of openness in terms of um you know God and uh his wisdom. And you know, the the thing that I would tell you, listeners, probably the best thing that I ever did is I had this uh this guy is kind of an old codger that had this crazy course where you read the cut the Bible from cover to cover, and then your ticket to the next class is what you gleaned out of the Bible for that particular section you read. And it was a one-year course where literally you, I I not only did I read something, but I wrote, you know, what I gleaned from the Lord. And when I look back, that was the impetus and the influence of writing all these books. Because I never, I mean, I never I wasn't a writer, I I never even liked to write letters. But what it did do for me is number one, okay, it's not just reading something, but then when I had to write it, um it allowed me to just write from the heart. I wasn't writing to get an A, I wasn't writing to persuade people. I that was when I first started to just write from my heart. And then, and I'll just share this, it's right here. So that became this profound thing when I was writing. Literally, I felt the Lord, I was closer to the Lord as I was writing. And sometimes it would get very slow. I mean, just allowing this to happen. So during that process was the calling to write God as my CEO, and it really was the craziest thing. I mean, I didn't know how to write at all. I never wrote a book, I didn't like to write letters, but I felt this call to write this book because I saw how business leaders could pray to God on Sunday, but Monday through Friday went to another culture. And so I tested myself, is this because of ego, or is it you're really right calling me? So I felt it, and I go to the local bookstore, and it's this you see this little black book here, and it was blank. And so I was so naive to the point that I said, okay, what I'll do to write the book is I'll just put in different chapters and then start to write in and fill in the uh the book. And what turned to be a what I was just so naive, turned out to be a several-year walk in the desert of trying to get this book published, as well as my wife and I were trying to have a child and going through you know, from months to years of just constant disappointment. And so I first started uh, and again, this I put in the different outlines, and then like any book, you write a personal dedication. So I did, and I write, you know, in terms of I'm writing to the Lord, and this is to you, and I'm dedicating this book to you. And really, what it turned out to be instead of this dedication, that one-page dedication, it just was letters to the Lord. And it was letters to the Lord about just pouring out that um my struggles. It just um I and I didn't out this was not the intention. The intention was I'm just communicating with the Lord, you know, here's my day. But what's funny is I'm reading through this, and this goes back to 1998, and there's such a pattern here where it's just a it starts out with, dear Lord, I struggle with my fears and security and doubts regarding my business. And I'm then here, I'm I'm dealing with anxiety, and then I'm dealing with fear, and I'm I'm basically, it turned out to be that I'm just whining and complaining to the Lord. But long story short, it was a just a wonderful uh practice of talking to the Lord, and then he answered me back. And this little book, this black book, turned into God is my CEO and these other books which went out and uh you know were successful. So it just starts with one step of writing to the Lord, getting his answers, and just keep on going.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful. Well, LarryJulian.com is the website where people can learn more about the books and uh get a hold of those. So, Larry, thank you so much for uh sharing your wisdom and insight and your your passion for the Lord with us today. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to be with you. We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity in Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HSCU's Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review journal by visiting our website at Christianityinbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your podcast.