Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Theology of Business Podcast. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show for marketplace Christians seeking to explore and apply God's will for business. On this episode, we're joined by Mark Plaza. Mark is the founder of Old Man Granola, which began in 2008 and now has their granola sold in several large grocery retail chains, such as Whole Foods and Safeway. And he has served in pastoral ministry for about 20 years and has also been a missionary in the Congo and Honduras, which actually a lot of the inspiration for the granola products that they make came from that experience, which you'll hear about here shortly. And he's currently the pastor of a church in Jefferson City, Missouri, while simultaneously serving as director of strategy and development for old man Granola. And he holds a doctorate in ministry from Golden Gate Seminary and teaches a course called Bible and Business for Colorado Christian University. Mark, welcome to the Theology of Business Podcast. Thank you. Glad to be here. Yes, sir. Mark, when did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work and business?
SPEAKER_01Well, when we um were uh uh pastoring a church in the mountains and uh Colorado, uh we had the opportunity to reach the community and in we did it through um um invitation to do some business with him. And we decided we'd use our recipe that we had from Africa when we lived in Africa on granola. And when we made some and just was a part of the market, basically, it was a farmer's market, and um and we got involved in it and got to know the people in the community, and um from that we ended up getting um I mean we did a I mean I it was kind of a joke, and um, old man granola was a joke, it was a play on on me. Um, and uh we were joking around, and next thing you know, and in uh after the market, uh three months later, two months later, we were getting phone calls from Florida, from Arizona, people wanting to buy the granola and pastoring a church with a lot of people who were self-employed. I wanted to experience some of what they were going through to own their own business. And so my wife and I decided we'd start it and and felt the Lord leading. Um, and it really has been a blessing to get involved in that.
SPEAKER_02So you started a business as a as a full-time pastor so that you could better identify with your congregation, many of which are nearly all of which are uh or all of whom are working in the marketplace in some form or fashion. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01That's correct. A lot of them were just self-employed. Um, living in the mountains in Colorado, they you had to do that, you you know, um, because you couldn't it took a long time to get to the cities down the bottom of the hill, the mountain, actually. So that they worked for themselves. And so it was a great experience just to get to know them and experience what they were going through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so how did you actually start making the the granola and then bring that to market?
SPEAKER_01Well, um, it uh the in the recipe is from Africa. Um, and what we did with it in Africa is uh we couldn't really get cereal, we lived in the military forest in the Congo, um, and we didn't really have access to cereals. And so we just started making our own. We could get oats. So we started making our own um granola. And our to be honest, our kids loved it. And so we would do it all the holidays, we'd make it even when we came back to the States. So when we had that farmers market, that was the thing that we decided hey, we our kids love this, let's just do it for the fun of it. And um, we did, and um, so that's it, it came out of the the Turi Forest, believe it or not, um, the recipe.
SPEAKER_02So um, yeah, and it does have a very distinct taste. I mean, it's it's fantastic. I just got to taste it at the the Christian Business Faculty Association conference here recently, and it is delicious. And you have how many flavors now?
SPEAKER_01Well, we have about uh six flavor, regular flavors. We have a couple seasonal that we do as well. Um, so and I we if you see us on YouTube, you see it, it's the best tasting granola in the whole world, and we can say that because it comes from the entire world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it uh it is actually quite quite delicious. I mean, I've had some store-bought granola, and I would say this is probably the best I've had. Wow thank you for saying that. And I your your wife was kind enough to to tell me what the that secret ingredient is, if you will. Um, I won't share that publicly uh unless you want to, but when she said it, I thought, oh, I see. Now now it makes sense um why it's why it is so delicious. Yeah. Um so Mark, what changed as a result of this revelation for you that God wanted to be involved in your work in the marketplace? I mean, where was there did you feel like there was a a disconnect before where you felt like, I mean, as a pastor, that to really serve God, it's got to be in like a church program or something like that. Um, what what shifted for you? Well, two things happened.
SPEAKER_01Um, first of all, our son came back from the Marines um after we were doing it for a couple of years, and we had were considering, you know, what should we do with the future of it? And he came back and wanted to join in. So that came and that encouraged us to keep doing it. The other thing that happened is um it opened the door as a as a pastor. Um, when you walk up to people and say, I'm a pastor, they expect you to be talking about the gospel and and and things like that, which is cool, but not everybody's open to it because you got that title. Um, but when you say you're owning a business, it opened up a whole different door to people who were struggling with the church. I mean, we've had opportunities to minister and have people work for us that that you know had bad experiences in churches, and we had the opportunity to work with them and see that it's you know really um church people are good people on a whole. Um, and any group you go with, there's always a bad person. Welcome to life. Um, but uh that being said, we had the opportunity to work with them. We had the opportunity to minister to we started ministering to single mothers. Um, and what a blessing it it was to be able to do the work between them dropping them out their kids off at school and then picking them up. They knew they had flexibility and we could work with them, and it was fun to do that. We had um worked with addicted people um who had problems with addictions, um, and they were trying to get over it so we could work with them as they were going through the process of getting over it. It was just, I mean, the Lord just said, hit us over the head with a two by four and said, keep doing it. This is this is it, you know. Um, and not that we, I still love, I mean, I'm still in a church, I still love it. That's not the issue. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Mark, what's one of the habits that helps you become more Christ-centered in your approach to business?
SPEAKER_01Um this is I've heard this said when I answer that question that that sounds normal. And in the in a theological sense, it's it's very practical and very easy. It's it's the appropriation of it. Okay, if you want to be effective in your faith, in your ministry in life, whether it's in your marriage or whether it's in your family or whether it's in a business or whether it's in a church, you have to be walking right with the Lord yourself. Okay, and the key is to appropriate that into our life and find out what our strengths are, what our weaknesses are, and focus on reaching out using the skills and gifts that God's given us, whether it's in a business setting or whether it's in a church setting, and then use and appropriate the principles that God has given us for interacting with other people. If we can do that, we can be um a testimony for God in business, at church, when things go good, when things go bad, but we have to be personally to make a disciple of the Lord, we have to be a disciple ourselves. So we have to do that. And it's in in the basic sense, it sounds um like it's it's easy, but to do that, we have to be committed to uh biblical principles.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What would be one expression of that in terms of uh conscious daily habit that you've put into action?
SPEAKER_01True love. Okay, and and uh you know the definition of love, in my humble opinion, has been um twisted. Okay, love doesn't mean you don't look at somebody who's, for example, working with someone who's addicted and then they come into work and they smell like they were drinking last night, and yet they came for help. Okay, so do you say anything? Yes, you say it in love. How's it going? What's going on in your life? Okay, and uh you'll be amazed how many people open up and then say, Can I help you? Like there was one happen one particular individual. I told him, When you're struggling with that, give me a call. You know, and I didn't judge him, I didn't get angry at him, I didn't fire him, I didn't yell at him, I just simply said, Look, I'm here for you. All right, and and it we I mean the guy's doing really well now. So yeah, we have to show that kind of love that will will depict both ends of it, love, even when it's not easy. Yeah, you know, when you're a boss and you have a worker who's not a very good worker, you know, you have to figure out how to love them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So the expression of that love in terms of a habit would be um asking your your team members how they're they're really, really doing, not just like, hey, how's it going? Oh yeah, I'm good. Oh, great. Moving on. Uh, first item on the agenda, it's like, no, you're gonna stop and take the time to really find out how they're actually doing.
SPEAKER_01And then help. And then and that's where it gets we're um, you know, an owner. Okay. So you walk in, I when I go to the the shop, I walk around and say hi to everybody, right? Then I watch what they're doing, and I go in the other room and do what I need to do. But as I'm doing that, for example, if the dishes pile up and I know they're struggling to get the load done, I'll get up there and do the dishes. All right. Who wants to clean dishes? You know, um, nobody does. But by helping them, I believe it's an act of showing them I care and I'm not leaving all the dirty work to them. My just a couple weeks ago, we were needed a little help, and um, my wife went in at five o'clock in the morning, Faye went in at five o'clock in the morning and worked for three hours before anybody got there to get things going so we could get things completed. We need to demonstrate that we care for their life too. Yeah. It's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_02So if I was if I was to walk around uh your company and talk to some of the the employees and ask what's one of the the corporate habits of this company that ref you feel like reflects Jesus. Um what what would they say?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I believe they would answer is and say that um we care. I mean, not just about making money and making the granola, we care about their children. Um, a couple of them that are single moms. I'm almost, to be honest with you, I'm almost a dad to their their child. Right? So when their child's there, I will take 10 minutes out and play with their kid in the other room. You know, or talk to them if they're older and ask them how they're doing. Because I do care. I I want them to succeed. I want the mother to succeed. You know, I mean, they're going through a hard time, you know, trying to be a mother all by themselves. They're lonely, struggling, you know, and there's their child. You know, it's it's kind of fun to do that. Yeah, you know, I send Christmas gifts to them and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, it's it's interesting, Mark. Um, we have this Christ-centered company assessment, and there's 37 habits that these business owners rate themselves on and their organizations, and the consistently lowest-rated habit has to do with providing pastoral care to your team. And why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_01Um partly because of the wrong definition of the word pastor. And and um, we define it with a capital P as a title for an office, when in in actuality, biblically speaking, it's a gift. And um, it's also an action. And uh, you can pastor shepherd people coming alongside of them and help them in their struggling or help them in their life and take time out for people. Um, you don't have to be quote unquote a pastor, capital P in the office. Um, you can be uh doing the work of a pastor. And there are a lot of people I've met in business who um who have the gift of pastoring and don't even realize it just from the way they treat people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. In 2021, more than $30 billion worth of ransoms were unnecessarily paid out by small businesses. These businesses didn't adequately protect their critical data against ransomware, allowing PCs, servers, and account software such as QuickBooks to be vulnerable. Secure your business today with storage guardian.com. To get an exclusive offer for Theology of Business Podcast listeners, head over to storage guardian.com to get started for free for 60 days with their Veeam self-provisioning portal. Storage Guardian will also provide expert recommendations on how to protect your company from these types of attacks. Don't be a victim to attackers. Head over to storage guardian.com today. Mark, what's a time, maybe a story you could share of a time when you saw God's hand at work in your company?
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's a good question. Um I would share this. We at one time hired two people, and they were not um the best. As a matter of fact, they were causing problems, they weren't fulfilling the the work. Matter of fact, one time they didn't even do the recipe the right way, and it didn't taste very good, so we lost a bit of money. And um, here's God's movement. We what do you do? You know, do you fire them? What do you do? Well, frankly, I went, uh my wife and I went into the room, the other room, our office, and we prayed. And we said, Lord, we're gonna believe and trust in you that you brought them to us for a reason. But if we keep them here, we're gonna lose other workers. They're being mean. Okay. Um, they said they would show up at at nine o'clock in the morning and we're flexible in times, but they wouldn't show up till 9 30. If they didn't want to do something, they would just walk out. Um, you know, and uh we we prayed and said, Lord, we trust in you and we believe you have our back, and we we really need to do something about this. Within three days, they were gone, and they did it on their own, so we didn't have to deal with it. Um, God worked, okay, and and I really believe in God's got our backs. We need to live by faith, and we're gonna run into people like that. And when God doesn't take care of them, okay, um, it's because he's trying to train me. I've taken that on as a as a as a principle. Um, but often I've discovered when I say the Lord to the Lord, I go, Lord, I really don't know what to do with this. We're gonna be in trouble here, and we need to deal with it, and I would rather you deal with it. And it was amazing. Within literally within 48 hours, they resigned. And it had nothing to do with us, and I have no idea where they went, and we've never been asked for a reference, then praise the Lord, and they're gone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so have there been other times where you've had to actually be the mouthpiece uh to go and let somebody go from the company?
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, um, we have had to do that. Um, someone who um would come in who's an addict and they were still struggling and they were coming in and not taking care of their addiction. Um, and we had no choice. But then when I talked with them, I had contacts with the Denver Rescue Mission. I had contacts with some counselors, and and I said, You you need to get this taken care of. If you don't, you're gonna have this happen to you all the time. Now, whether the person did or not, that I don't know. Um, but I did line them up with somebody and whether they've followed through, I don't know. But my responsibility is to love them and lead them uh to the right place if I'm not the one for it. And I wasn't in this in this case, I was not the right one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Mark, so you teach this course called Bible and Business at Colorado Christian University, and you have been over the almost the last 10 years. Um, what's your favorite part of teaching that course? Like what part of the curriculum is your favorite?
SPEAKER_01The blessing you uh you're probably gonna laugh is it's it's online. It's an online class. So people, it's it's different. Like here goes again. Um, with the pastor at your church or whatever. I work with people that the fun part about it is for me, is people find out that I own a business and I'm a pastor of a church, and then they'll text me or email me about a struggle they're going through in their life. And I get to walk with them through it. I actually have right now um from five years ago, there's two people I'm still working with. And working with them in their their walk with the Lord and helping them, and it's there's just amazing how much fun that is. And and I think what happens is because it's not eye to eye and they don't see me, they actually open up. And you hear about things you wish you didn't hear about, but that opens the door to do ministry and and it is helped me, um, it's helped me and helped me grow, but I hope that I'm also helping other people grow. And you ask, what is the it's to see God work in that way? Okay, you never would have expected that. I'm teaching a business class and now I'm helping somebody deal with um their daughter from uh a state across the country who's struggling with something, and and I'm walking with them through it. It's amazing, yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_02So as a pastor, you know, having been full-time missionary in the Congo and Honduras, done a lot of the the traditional ministry assignments. Um, how do you feel like your ministry would be different had you not stepped out in being a small business owner entrepreneur? Um, if you were just if you were, I don't want to say just, but continuing on that same trajectory of you know the traditional expressions of ministry.
SPEAKER_01Because of the business experience um and the what it's allowed me to do in church, it's it's helped me to be a little more well-rounded. Um, and when I say this, I'm not being critical of any other pastors, but um previous to my getting involved in business, um, I didn't really know what some people were going through. I I you know, now I know when all of a sudden um the the county uh inspector shows up and is not very nice, okay, and the pressure it puts on you. Okay. Um, and and you know, I did I I didn't know what that the component of what people are going through. Um when a person's a boss in a in a business, I mean, without even owning their own business, and they have to go up to somebody and let them go, the emotional experience they're going through, if they're real truly um whether a believer or not, if they love the people and they're trying to demonstrate love to people, the pain it causes in the heart, that you have to do that to somebody, knowing very well it's gonna hurt. And it has helped, it has helped me to be able to minister to people um in the church in a way in which I understand now they're going through a hard time. They may not say it, and it is again here's another component that has helped. Um, they almost don't have to say it anymore. I can hear it without them saying I'm going through a hard time at work, my boss is treating me terribly. I don't they don't have to say it, I can hear it in their voice, which allows me to know what to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, and and going back to I mentioned how consistently pastoral care is the Lowest rated of these habits so far in our in our survey. I would also assume, and it sounds like based on the what I've been hearing from you, that being a pastor on the flip side also really helps you to make a more intentional effort toward reaching out to people and not just focusing on the financial bottom line, but you're, I mean, the the prevailing theme of everything you've been saying has had to do with helping people, uh serving people, and really the people that are kind of the forgotten ones, you know, and and it you really have to have a a pastoral uh a pastor's heart to even think uh that that that is that is your that is your mission. It's not just to pay the bills and make payroll uh and you know and make a profit, but uh to serve people, right? That's what I'm hearing from.
SPEAKER_01You just you just uh mentioned the the collision of two things that that take place in a business that I mean it happens in a church too, but it's not as big. You you have to make money or your business is gonna close. I mean, there's nothing you can do about that. So you got to figure out how to to to to do that and still uphold biblical principles. Okay, so you still have to uh develop a strategy for your business that produces income. Um or you're gonna be you're not gonna last very long. Yeah, okay. So in the business world, but even in the church, if you don't make your budget, uh things start to to dip, you know, and you you got a problem on your hands. So you've got to be able to uh to uh appropriate biblical truths financially, even in the business world, and you have to do the pastoral. And I think in the churches, uh it's the financial end that ends up not being taken care of totally correct. And I think in the business circles, it's the pastoral end that's not being taken care of totally. Yeah, that's that's my humble opinion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well said. So oldmandegranole.com is the website, and that's old with the E at the end of it. Um, anything you want to say about uh um your products, how people can uh get a taste of it and hear more from you.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um I what I'll do is I mean, people listen to this. I'll I'll I'll get my son who takes care of the tech end of it. I'll get him to give a uh a little bit of a discount if you say uh, you know, I'll get a code out there for you. Um uh John 316. Okay, you do that and you get 10% off. Okay. And I'll I'll pass that on to him. It'll take us a a couple days to get that on the website. But anyone listen to this, if you want to try it, go for it, and we can do that.
SPEAKER_02All right, it'll be worth it. And and it's just John 316, no coal.
SPEAKER_01Yes, no, no coal in no zero, just three one six. And uh we'll put that in there and you can get a little bit of a discount. And um, you know, my favorite is the raisin, and the sales are down, so please, you mean feel free to choose the raisin. Uh blueberry and cranberry and the original nut are our um bestsellers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the original. I and I had one of the other ones, I can't remember. Uh, I think it was a cranberry, that was excellent as well. But for me, it's all about the original. Um, that was that was pretty phenomenal. Um, great time to uh give a Christmas gift. So yeah um everybody go gift packages. All right. All right. Well, old mangranola.com and uh Mark Plaza, thank you so much for taking the time out to encourage our listeners today.
SPEAKER_01You're welcome, and thank you, and thanks for everything. Appreciate it.
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