Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On today's episode, we're joined by fellow Houstonian, um friend to Houston Christian University, William Vanderblumen. William has been leading the Vander Blumen Search Group for 15 years, where they are regular, regularly retained to identify the best talent for teams, manage succession planning, and consult on all issues regarding teams. And this year, Vander Blumen will complete their 3,000th executive search. And prior to founding Vander Blumen Search Group, William studied executive search under a mentor with over 25 years of executive search at the highest level. And his learning taught him the very best corporate practices, including the search strategies used by the internationally known firm Russell Reynolds. And prior to that, he served as senior pastor at one of the largest Presbyterian churches in the United States. So a very extensive marketplace background and working in a very large church. And he's the author of numerous books, including his latest book, which will be coming out, uh, should be out at the time of this interview. Be the Unicorn: 12 data-driven habits that separate the best leaders from the rest, which is published by HarperCollins Leadership. William, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Darren. I uh I love people that are doing things for my city and uh just love Houston and love what Houston Christian has done. We've got several graduates on our team here. I know there are people listening all over the world, but uh you should know that uh you're part of a good family if you're part of what Houston Christian is doing.
SPEAKER_00Indeed. So, William, this is a question I like to ask a lot of our guests. When did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work in the marketplace?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I'm probably a little uh backwards or upside down. So I I started in vocational ministry and now I'm in a regular business that's very cause-based. So uh, you know, I'm a I'm a recovering preacher, so I try not to ramble. But uh I was a pastor for a long time, as as you said it more flowery than I would have. Uh got had the chance to serve as the lead pastor at First Presbyterian Houston, special group of people, really wonderful, and uh left there uh a little bit unforeseen, went through a divorce, which I would not recommend to listeners out there, but uh things things happen. And so found myself as a single dad of four kids and in no shape to you know pastor anybody. So I I stepped away and went into the oil and gas, which is what you do in Houston. And uh they were putting me on a management rotation track. So the the first year I was in HR, kind of learned a little bit about the business, the people, and you know, they paid me well, took good care of me. It's a company called Anadarco that no longer exists. They sold to Oxy not long ago. Um, and and it was it was a great place, but I was absolutely feeling like my gifts are not being used. This is not, I mean, I can be a Christian in the workplace, and yay, please do that. But I have a, you know, over my shoulder, there's a religion and philosophy degree from Wake Forest, and then a master divinity from Princeton. And that has nothing to do with oil and gas. So it's it's not, could God not be in the workplace? It's just yes, William, but are you maximizing your gifts or are you putting them under a bushel and not letting the world see? So there is a little angst in me. And and so I'm doing my work, ho hum, with some angst. And the CEO who'd been there for nine years, now Anadarco at the time was a Fortune 200 company. So uh nine years is a lifetime to be a CEO of a company that long, that large. Uh, he decided, you know, it's probably time to identify my successor. And so let's hire uh some experts. And they hired this thing called an executive search firm. I'd never heard of such a thing. So back up just a little bit, uh, first Presbyterian Houston, absolute gem of a church and and should be easy to recruit to. Uh, I followed an absolute legend who went to the largest Presbyterian church in the country. Uh, it took them roughly three years to find me, a little bit less than that. I stayed about six, took them uh about three years to find the successor. So they had a 12-year run where half the time they had a pastor and half the time they're looking for a pastor, right? So, oil and gas company, we hired this executive search firm. I'm like, wow, what's that? 90 days later, they had their next CEO. And I just thought, you know, when a church is without a leader, you know, Jesus is the leader of the church, but when a church is without a senior leader, you lose momentum, you lose uh you lose donations, you lose attendance. You it's just a leaky vessel. And I sat there thinking oil and gas 90 days, church six years looking, six years with. I'm like, golly. And and in hindsight, Darren, I can say this more succinctly. In hindsight, God sort of put a uh a burn inside me, a question was like, why in the world does the business world have a better solution than the bride of Christ? So I I felt like, you know, I need to rather than how do I get God into my business? I was trying to get business into the church. So it's kind of backwards. Um, and so I went home and I I talked to Adrian. We had just gotten married, just blended our families just a few months before. So we had six kids and a new house, and I said, baby, I think I think I'm supposed to quit my job and start something new for churches. And and she looked at me and she said, That's because churches love new ideas, right? So she so I tell people all the time, she gets tired of me telling this story, but she should get credit for starting the company because she should have said, I love you. We have children to feed and a house to pay for, go back to work. But instead, she said, Let's give it a try. So it's been this weird, um, weird journey of vocational ministry into the corporate world where I was trying to be a Christian in the marketplace, but but now it's like, oh, and the punchline, Darren, it was the fall of 2008 when I quit my job. So if you remember your economic history, like it's a really stupid time to do that, but uh just shows God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick. Yeah. But but uh it's been how do we take a business principle and infuse it into the church, which is a really interesting puzzle. Churches don't like new ideas, and churches are not a business, but they are, and so we've been figuring that out as we go. And then and then just so people understand, um, God really uh opened my eyes to the fact that the church is not just people who get together in congregations on Sunday, right? So he over the years we've expanded to how do we help nonprofits find their CEO, like living water here in Houston as a client, or compassion or uh world vision, right? And then we said, well, what about schools? Christian schools are a big deal, like Houston Christian. You got four years of four. So we started open to practice there, and and the the most recent and fastest growing sector we have right now is uh, for lack of a better way of saying it, the Chick-fil-A's of the world, the the sort of family-owned, values-driven, for-profit businesses that are looking to hire people and they don't really know how to hire someone that's going to match their values and their culture, and they bring us in for that. So that's been pretty cool, and that's a long answer, but we're still figuring out the tightrope of you know, how do you do business in Jesus' name without pretending it's a church? And how do you do care for people who really care about uh the the cause of Jesus and and not do it in a way that's sloppy business?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you've now done 3,000 executive searches. How many interviews have you and your team done at this point?
SPEAKER_02Uh just over a bajillion. So that well, there are a lot of different kinds of interviews. There's a phone interview. There's uh before the pandemic, it was kind of odd, but we had Zoom interviews with you know lots of people. When you get down to the to like a search for Houston Christian or Star of Hope or any number of different organizations, they hire us. We're gonna try and narrow it down to the best of the best to present to them. And that's gonna be pretty short list. That's gonna be, you know, probably half a dozen people. And that means we'll probably have face-to-face interviews, long format with um 10, maybe 12 individuals per search. So those long format interviews that we track kind of maniacally, we've done over 30,000 of those. And that's pretty interesting. It's enough data to start to see some trends and things. It's it's just if you're a geek or a nerd, which I am one or the other, it's it's uh it's a fun place to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so you really narrowed it down to the top 12 habits that, as you said, separate the best leaders from the rest. And I want to, I want to get into that in just a minute. Um, before we do that, I wanted to ask you um, is there a favorite uh scripture passage that comes to mind, or or maybe one of your favorites as it relates to this theme of and process of executive search?
SPEAKER_02There's it's so funny. The verses God calls to mind now are so different than they were when I was a pastor. You know, you sit by somebody at the hospital and you talk, nothing will separate you from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Or, you know, we're more than conquerors, like the kind of the standard, but now, like what we do a lot of succession planning. And uh if you've had a long, successful run, you're probably not very good at succession planning because you've had a long, successful run. So you get the smartest people in the world in the room that love their company or cause or church or school. And because they haven't done succession very often, they don't realize what a bad idea some things are, right? Like sometimes repetition is the mother of expertise. It's not that I'm smarter, it's just I got a lot more repetition. So the with succession planning, the verse that honestly comes to mind is there's a way that seems right to a man, and it's a way that ends in death. For our team, on a more serious note, uh a verse God just lifted up out of the you know the Bible for me years ago was uh the eyes, it's in Chronicles, uh, the eyes of the Lord are constantly scanning the globe, looking for those who are searching after him. And I thought, my goodness, we have to have that same attitude. If we're trying to help people who are on Team Jesus fill their staff, we better be constantly looking, not just waiting on people to come to us, but constantly searching the globe. So those are two that that have come to mind over the years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What's one of the most destructive habits that you find churches, organizations are they're they're they're most inclined to overlook to say, oh man, this is a person that's just so gifted. Like, but there's there's something that maybe it flies under the radar, or they just yeah, they don't take it as seriously as they ought to, or maybe they don't know how to ask the right questions, but they just so those people end up um, as you said, there's a way that seems right on the man, and you can really bring death to that organization by letting the wrong leader in there. What is that thing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, the most the most expensive hire you'll ever make is hiring the wrong person. So, like, let's have long hellos and short goodbyes. Um, so you're totally right. But like, if uh what are some common uh patterns that end poorly, let's say it that way, rather than destructive habit, you know. I I think so. There's a if every weakness is usually the shadow side of a great strength, right? So one weakness I see, particularly in cause-based businesses and really particularly in churches that are looking for a pastor, is everyone on the search committee or the board is deeply in love with their institution. Like, and they think it's the best thing in the world. Most of them are volunteering for their position as a board member or search committee member. They've got their own lives, their own other jobs, and now they're donating their time. And that's because they really believe it's the very best place in the world, and that's who you want serving on your board. The shadow side of that is well, anybody would want to work here. Everybody ought to come here, and I don't want to like like the shadow side, Darren, is pride. People ask me all the time, who's your number one competitor? I'm like, human pride. We don't need help. We we got this, we're good enough that anybody's gonna want to come. And you know, the reality is it is one kingdom with many locations, and a lot of them are really good looking. So I would say the the strength of a lot of boards and search committees is that you have people who are deeply invested in the institution, but the shadow side of that is it it can create some pride that can blind or cause some myopia that uh it hinders their ability to walk through the process. When we do searches, I mean, do we introduce people to candidates they never would have met? Yeah, sometimes and sometimes not. Um, but they're hiring us more to be like a Sherpa to help them go up Everest because we've gone up and down the hill a bunch. And uh that seems to remove the obstacle of pride because you've got someone guiding the process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow. Right. So you've now done 3,000 executive searches, 30,000 interviews, and now have distilled your findings down to these 12 habits. Um, which of those 12 habits showed up, say, in the top two or three?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it might might help to give you just a little origin story for this research project that turned into a book. Uh, it kind of all started in the pandemic. Uh during the pandemic, most most of our work at the time was with churches and schools, both of which were indefinitely shut down. Well, that changes your calendar a little bit because they weren't hiring, they weren't like we didn't nobody knew what was going to happen. So we we had to pivot to use a tired word and uh figure out ways we could serve churches in the interim, just saying this is gonna be a year where we make no money at all. We're just gonna serve during a crisis. And then also we're gonna drop back. We've grown every year since 2008, and some years really fast. And when you're working in your business the whole time, you don't ever get to work on it. So we said, part of the time we have the pandemic, let's drop back and do some study of all the stuff we've done. So here's a question I want it answered. You ever walk into a room and meet someone that you immediately know as a winner? It's happened at social functions, you see a party where everyone's drawn to that person and they're the life of the crowd. Or uh maybe the quiet individual who uh says things so cleanly and wise that you're like, winner. Or maybe you're doing an interview and you're like, oh my gosh, this is a winner. Is there a way to distill what makes that person like that? What causes some people to stand out of the crowd? That was kind of my question that drove um drove into a project. And we said, well, now we've done 30,000 interviews. I wonder if we could figure out who were the best of those 30,000, like who got the job, who kept the job, who got promoted, who was that sort of unicorn, that mythical talent. We figured out who they were. And then we asked the question do they have anything in common? And the answer is yes. And the cool thing was, yes, they had things in common, but it's not what I thought they'd be. I thought it'd be they all have an IQ of 150. Nope. Uh they all went to amazing schools. Nope. Um, they all were interviewing for the very top part rung of the ladder. Nope. Um, they're all six foot four and have amazing hair and teeth. Nope, not that either. It was really simple habits that we found that these unicorns or super performers had in common that are not common in the general population. And they're all teachable and they're all doable. So the the people say, uh, what makes you excited about the book? I'm like, you know, for years we've been paid to go find the next unicorn for a team. Now we've learned how to teach people to become one. And that's pretty fun because it's a it's a more crowded workforce than ever. It's uh, you know, there are five generations in the U.S. workforce, first time in history that that's happened. You've got the rise of AI coming, which is challenging people and they got to stand out in the crowd so they don't get replaced. Uh, you've got an economy that's been sort of squiggly for the last year. So uh there's just a lot of reasons that we feel like learning these habits will help a lot of people. And secondarily, some of you that are listening today are probably a hiring manager or run a company or you're an executive. It if you can identify these 12 habits in people you're interviewing, I think you're gonna have a better shot at finding someone who's gonna stand out in the crowd as they represent you and your company.
SPEAKER_00So let's say they can only remember three out of the 12. Sure. When they're, you know, in the midst of doing those interviews and uh being interviewed, uh, and they they just really want to hone in on, say, the top three. What would you say those would be?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I I'm trying to think, you know, particular to your audience, right? Uh, Christians that are in business, I think is one way of saying a lot of who is listening today. Um, one of the 12 habits that we saw was people who rise to the top and are unicorns are very clear about their purpose. And and I don't just mean they're very clear that they want light to shine in darkness. That's yes, that's purpose. But they're like really attuned to how they're wired and how they can add value and what they want to add value to. Uh you know, it's they're they're a smarter version of what I was when I was at Anadarco, where I'm like, it's a good company and they pay me well, but something doesn't feel right. And just because I'm not using my gifts. And no, the smart unicorns are better and more articulate than I was. They would have said, I have been uh everything I've done up till now should lead me to the job I take next. And uh the this sense of purpose and drive, like I've got one life to give and I want it to matter, lining up with the gifting and experience they have, it's very, very rare. And if you, when you're interviewing, if you can try and craft questions that will allow people to talk about their sense of purpose, that's a huge, huge win, particularly if you're a Christian businesswoman or businessman that is trying to build a team of like belief, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's where you know Christians really have or should have an edge because we should be the most purpose-driven. Uh, I mean, our our purpose, it it it goes beyond just this life. I mean, we have that's right, um we have the ultimate sense of purpose. And the more that we can tap into that, like if it's because there's so many, there's so much being said about that nowadays, and just being a purpose-driven and having you know, your why, because you know, like Simon Sinek says, people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. Like, if that's the case, wow. I mean, Christians, those of us in business, uh, as we're talking here today, I mean, we should be the most excellent in that in that aspect.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Right alongside the second habit you ask for three would be uh self-awareness. You think, what are you talking about? Well, self-awareness is is incredibly rare among people, as is sense of purpose at work. Most people are like, well, I go to church and I serve the uh the student ministry, I'm an accountability partner, and then I go to my job and I do my thing. It's not supposed to be that way. There should be purpose throughout your day in your life. Self awareness is the same thing. Very uncommon for people to be self aware. Like if you go farther back in time than uh Jesus' time on earth, you go to Socrates, who I mean, father of Western. Thought a lot of people would say, maybe one of the very few quoted things that were written down that he said was his top advice, know yourself. It's kind of what I hear when I hear Jesus saying, hey, quit worrying about the splinter in your friend's eye and get the log out of your own. And I don't think Jesus was trying to say, you messy sinner, you need to know. No, I think he was saying, hey, understand yourself, your weakness, and your strength. And here's how that looks in a job interview. So, Darren, thanks for asking me to come join what you're doing there. Houston Christians, an amazing place. I I think I might be a fit for there. And here's why. First of all, my sense of purpose is very aligned with yours. I want to help form people into disciples that are going to go out and bring light into a world that's, you know, dark a lot of the time. And secondly, you're doing it in an innovative way. I mean, Robert Sloan has done an amazing job. He's kind of broken the mold on the way a lot of things have been done. I've read about your initiatives for the future. My past work experience shows that I thrive best in highly innovative environments. And I can tell you when I was a marketing coordinator at this brand new company, we had to go figure it out on our own. Like here are the five things that I did while I was there that show that I had to go figure it out on my own. And we're going to try something that's a little bit challenging to the status quo. So, you know, my history in innovation and my heart for your cause just makes me really excited about the possibility of working with you. Well, like that's like, I mean, the question, tell me about yourself, comes up in every interview. But have you ever heard an answer like that? I have very, very rarely from unicorns. Most people don't have that level of self-awareness of not just my why, but you remember, Paul talked about King David, and he said he served him in his day and time. Like, here's how I'm helping in this moment with how I'm wired, with my personality type, and what you need.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that's two, and I'm probably taking more of your time than I should, but uh very quickly. A third one would be it's simple, but level of responsiveness. How quickly do people get back to you? The unicorns have this amazing ability to get back to people right away and discern which things need to be gotten to right away. So they're not under like a tyranny of the urgent, but they can discern, I better just get back to them right now. And there's a boatload of data uh in the book around all three of those things to kind of back up and show you just how uncommon this is, how common it is among the unicorns, and some clear developmental steps you can take to improve yourself in each of the 12 habits.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And it's probably not difficult to find how responsive somebody is when you're scheduling interviews and you know, just sending emails back and forth about different things. Like, how responsive are they? Like, if they're gonna wait. I mean, do you think about that in terms of like a 24-hour? Because I mean, I know other people when you send an email, like they're gonna get back to you it so quickly that it's like this almost seems like a character flaw on your end, you know. Um, so there's there's there's definitely a like you were saying, there's not the tyranny tyranny of the urgent, but they know what needs to be responded to quickly.
SPEAKER_02So, so when I was thinking of starting this whole idea of new idea for churches, 2008, and would I be any good at it? Right? It's a good idea, but would I be any good at it? I went and talked to a friend of mine who's really one of the best exec search consultants. He was the largest firm in the world, runs energy practice here in Houston. Pretty amazing. And this, so this is 2008. So remember the technology, the iPhone had not debuted yet. It came out later that year. Okay. And he says to me, You want to know if you're gonna be any good at this? Yeah. So let's pretend. Pretend you're on a one-on-one ski trip with your daughter, you're on the lift, one-on-one conversation, your phone rings. Do you answer it? And I said, Well, that depends on who it is. He said, You're gonna do fine. I said, Why? He said, first of all, you had your phone, which think back, 2008, like that wasn't, you know. Secondly, you looked at it. And thirdly, you're asking the question, is this worth getting back to him right away?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and I think in a job interview, it's probably pretty if you want to show a job interview, it is somewhat of a self-marketing task. And if people take forever to get back to you, like you you interview me for an interview time, or you email me for an interview time, and I I take several days to get back to you, that's just not a good sign. The the you know, the funny thing is, even like like we studied uh response time on dating sites, right? So you get people, the only people on these sites are people who want to find a relationship, and they still don't get back to each other with any speed. Speed and responsiveness are so incredibly rare. You know, the the the word uh in Latin, the word that means tomorrow is the word crastina. So, like we procrastinate literally means I'll get to it tomorrow. And that's where nearly everyone lives. But the unicorns are able to figure out does this need an immediate response? And if so, I'm on it right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, or you know how to get the right people on it, you know, if even if you don't have the the bandwidth for it, you know you you can at least demonstrate an ability to in a in an instinct to this doesn't mean I have to be the one to do it. This means it has to get it needs to get done. It's just we got to figure out the right strategy to do it.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm pretty maniacal about getting back to people. When you start your own company with six children and a wife to feed, you get back to people when they ask, could you come like pretty quickly?
SPEAKER_00So you know, we don't I can I can relate.
SPEAKER_02But but as we grew up, we've got about 40 full-time employees here, and we're uh some of them are in different time zones. We have a distributed model for our consultants, um, and a lot of people are here. You know, in the early days, we could just text and everybody text back, text, takes back. There wasn't any scale to the business, so it was immediate was what was expected. But as we got bigger, we had to like develop a uh protocol. So for us, and I don't know, maybe this would be helpful to some people out there thinking, how do I get my team to be responsive? You know, what we needed was how do we know whether or not to respond when it's non-working hours? That was a question. So where we landed was all right, here are the rules for non uh it it applies during the work day too, but this is really specific to off hours. Okay. If you email me or I email you, then the expectation is we're gonna hear back in 24 hours, right? And that and optimally the next time you're on email, which if you're a night owl, maybe that's one in the morning, if it's the next day, whatever, but within a day. If I need something within a day, I send it out to my team via email. Um, if I use Slack, which is an interoffice communication app that a lot of companies use, if I if someone slacks me after hours and I see it come through, that's a different notification on my phone. I'm like, okay, I need to get to that at my very earliest convenience. If I'm sitting down to dinner with my family after dinner, right? Um if I get a text from a co-worker after hours, I need to answer it like pretty much right away. And if I get a phone call from a coworker after hours, pick it up. And and you know that that uh has a backside, you know, if you want to send a fun text about the movie we're all watching or whatever, you know, so it requires discernment. But but I think as as leaders, it's on us to lead by example with some protocols that would show, okay, I want to respect your worth life balance. At the same time, we're in a service industry, and if there is something on fire and we need to deal with it at nine at night, then we need to deal with it. Let's just find a way to uh to send the right signals. You know, we laugh and say, you know, an email after hours is DEF CON four, or a slag is DEF CON three. So yeah, that's what we're trying to implement as we learn along the way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I also heard you say that of the threefold ministry of Christ, the prophet, priest, king, there's a a uh new now a surge in demand, or or at least it's coming for people who operate in that priest priestly role. Um, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I you know, it's interesting. I a lot of uh interviews I do will go around, you know, surround the topic, what's the pastor's role now that we've had a pandemic? Like what's the new normal or however you want to say it? And I think one thing that uh it goes back to a conversation I had with a dear friend of mine who's a pastor, and I uh he said to me one time, I don't know if anyone's gonna come back to church. And I said, Well, why? And he said, Well, you know, during this lockdown, everybody figured out how to do church online, and now instead of listening to me, they're gonna go. I mean, there's a you know, there's a lot of great preachers, they can go get their content anywhere they want. And I just said to him, Let's call him Darren. Oh, Darren, nobody knows the neighborhood like you do. Nobody knows the lives of your people like you do. And I think, you know, rather than being worried about producing a sermon that's going to compete with the top 40 preachers in the world that are all online now, the task now is to smell like the sheep. You know, let your preaching be. Billy Graham used to say, when I prepare a message, I'd have the Bible on the table and the newspaper on the table, and I'd try and draw from both to see what God was saying today. I think the people who can show genuine interest in what's going on in their city, in their 10 blocks around them, in their local um context, are the ones that are gonna uh prove to be exceptional. And it's particularly true in the service industry. Anywhere humans can give a human touch, which would be of the threefold office of Christ. I think the priestly or the, you know, be there for me. They were there when mom died, they were there when they remembered my name, they asked about me. Like that's gonna be as we we've spent so much time studying AI and how it's gonna change things and change the job market. The people who can be the most human and have the most human touch are really gonna rise up out of the crowd. And and that is uh, you'll find that in the book as well. Some uh key insights and easy steps that you can take to you know be a little bit more human. And and I think that uh after being locked down where we couldn't get out of the house, and now having a surge in computers replacing us in jobs, uh it's it's more important than ever that we learn how to be with one another in person in a in a very human way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Wow, that's well said. So the book is Be the Unicorn 12 data-driven habits that separate the best leaders from the rest, um, which is now available, where booked or sold. Uh, anything else you want to say, William, about where people can connect with you? Um, Vanderblumen.com is the website for executive search.
SPEAKER_02Um, our company is named the one name that I said it couldn't be named. I didn't want it named after me. But the search engine guys studied all the domains we were looking at, and they're like, you know, William, your last name is so messed up. You could just spell it a hundred different ways, and it'll still so I the easiest thing to do is just spell Vanderblumen however you want into Google or into Amazon, and you'll find the books. You also find our site, which it might it might actually help some of your listeners because one of the things we've done, we don't really cold call people saying, Can we help you? We just try and put valuable content into the hands of people who need it, and then they'll find us when they need our service. So if you go to vanblumen.com, you'll find something like 3,500 free resources to help you build and run and keep a great team, and all under the umbrella of how do we do this in Jesus' name? Where because I I think you can do good and do good business at the same time. And that's kind of the hope of all the resources we put out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. William Vanderblumen, thank you for spending time with us today. Um, Vanderblumen.com is the website, Be the Unicorn is the book. Everybody go check it out. Um, really appreciate your time and your wisdom sharing with us today, William.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Darren. I appreciate you having me on, man. Thanks for what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.