Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On today's episode, we're joined by Matt Neff. Matt is the CEO of Sight and Sound, which is a ministry on a mission to bring the Bible to life through live theater, television, and film. And since its beginning as a traveling multimedia show in 1976, Sight and Sound has inspired over 30 million people with stories of faith and is supported by a team of 800 employees. And today, Sight and Sound owns and operates two live theater locations, immersing audiences in state-of-the-art original productions, and recently released their first theatrical film, which I believe was number two at the box office, correct?
SPEAKER_01That is correct. Yeah. Thank you, Darren. Great to be here with you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, sir. And so he joined the company in 1994 as a stagehand and has served in a variety of roles since becoming the CEO in 2015. And he's married to Amy, who is the third daughter of Sight and Sound's co-founders Glenn and Shirley Eshelman, and has played an active role in the strategic planning of the long-term structure of the family-owned business. Matt and Amy reside in Lancaster, Pennsylvania with their four children. Matt, we're excited to have you and looking forward to diving into this conversation.
SPEAKER_01Man, honored to join you, Darren. Really, this is this is fun stuff to talk about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So for those who aren't familiar, um what is sight and sound? Can you just kind of give us a sense of the magnitude of these shows? Because some people may be hearing, okay, but you know, biblical theater, they think in like a church production, but that's not what we're what we're talking about here.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Yeah, we have not used uh bathrobes and shower curtains in a long time. Uh, but that is often a perception that we recognize people have, um, which I think is unfortunate. Um, our belief is that as followers of Christ, created in God's image, uh, we know the creator. So while the world has the ability to create, because we're also created in God's image, uh, as believers, we have an inside track, right? We know the creator. Uh so we believe that as believers, as Christians, we should be able to create with a whole nother level of excellence. Uh or as we said a few years ago, you know, we were wrestling with, like, hey, we always want to be world class and what we're doing, and we kind of caught ourselves like, whoa, why would we settle for world class? Let's aim for kingdom class, because that's that's who we're called to be. So it's really fun to be able to produce things when the world comes and sees it, and they're like, How in the world did you guys do that? Like, what technology is that? Those are fun conversations. Um so, anyhow, so yeah, so at our heart, we are storytellers. Like our founder, Glenn, uh, is just I don't, I've never met a storyteller like him. You can't meet him for two minutes and not hear a story. That's just who God made him to be, an artist and a storyteller. Uh, so we get to tell story through art, primarily through uh the stages is how we're most known for telling story through these epic Bible stories. Um, and as far as the scope goes, um, it's a really unique stage setup. It's not a traditional theater. What do I mean? So where traditional theater, you have, you know, one stage and an opening, a proscenium. In our case, it's a wraparound stage. So you literally sit in the story if you're in the audience. The stages are there's three. There's a main stage that's about 110 feet long, and then two side stages on either side of you. Uh, so it shapes kind of a U that you sit in. And in total, it's about 300 feet of staging you're looking at, and about 2,000 seats in each house, uh, both in the Langster location, the Branson, Missouri location. So it's a very large-scale theater, and then our shows are anywhere from 30 to 40 feet in height, depending on the story of the show, the what we're trying to convey. Um, so you're in a really uniquely large space. Uh, we're not aware of theaters of this size, frankly, anywhere in the world, but that's that's not why we set out to do it that way. It's really just how we're called to tell story, to get people lost in the story, immersed in it. And we see that open the door to the Holy Spirit work and break down walls that people may have come in with uh to meet them where they're at, as only he can. So our job is literally to set the stage for him to work through these stories, which are his stories. We just get to tell them again.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And and you're sharing the gospel at the end of every show, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, we just see, you know, obviously as believers, we recognize that Christ's story is entirely through the Bible. Like the gospel is Old and New Testament together. So whether the story, like right now, the story on stage here in Lancaster is the story of Moses and Branson's the story of Queen Esther, whether it's those stories or the actual story of Jesus, which we've also told on stage, um, we see Christ throughout and threaded in. So, for example, at the end of Moses, towards the end, where we have like kind of a flash forward moment after they cross the Red Sea and he's receiving the Ten Commandments, and he's recognizing, but God, you're holy, these laws are perfect. We're gonna fail. And God basically reveals you see, Jesus kind of ghosted in in the background, if you will, he's like, Yeah, I know, I got you. We're you're good. Like, I'm that's why I'm gonna come, that's why I'm gonna send my son. Uh, because we see that throughout the Old Testament, those prophetic allusions to there's more, there's the coming seed, the coming Christ, the coming Messiah, the coming Redeemer. So we find ways to incorporate that in all of the stories because that's the gospel, and that's the point. That's the great good news. It didn't just, oh wow, that was a great story that happened, you know, a thousand and or several thousand years ago. It's like, no, no, that story is relevant for today because it points to Christ, it points to our need for Christ. So it's not just retelling a story, it's really what's the heart message we believe the Lord has within that story for now, for this moment in time. And that's the hard work of the creative team is to really pull that out through discernment and a lot of prayer of like, Lord, what is it? What's in your heart with this message? Uh so, like, for example, we um knew a show we would have released would have been David last year. And in that story, the production team, when they're working on it, the very first thing we start with is what's the heart? What's the heart message, the heart summary? And we thought, you know, hey, maybe it's senior giants fall, you know, things like that, which is all great. Uh, but really, the deeper we dug, the Lord just drew us towards the heart message of this story is communion. Communion with me. That's the essence. When God references David as a man after his heart, the theme we kept coming back to is David was a lover of God's presence. He was a communer with God. So the story took that shape. So, you know, and we've got two and a half hours to tell these epic stories and lives. So you got to pick and choose a little bit. Like, okay, where are we gonna major on? Well, that thread helps helps drive, okay. We're gonna leave out, you know, the census piece. It doesn't really drive the story forward. But David and Bathsheba, yeah, that's gonna be in the story because that's a crucial part of David's failure, but coming back to communing with the father and the heart of the father. Anyway, sorry, soapbox, you get it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's I mean, live animals and only like how many, how many animals are typically involved?
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. Uh, it can be up to probably close to 60 animals, um, depending on the show. All shows incorporated. That's also part of our DNA. Our founders were farmers, uh, so our roots are based in farming. And so that's just been, I don't know, a piece of it from from the early days. Um, and so our animal actors are just integral to what we get to do, because it's yet another way that you're bringing the realistic nature of what the story was. So when the wise men come, there's camels involved, you know, like okay. Um, or whether it's symbolic in part of the storytelling, like in Jesus, he starts to somebody asks a question and um he goes to the passage of take no thought for your lives. And so he goes to pick a flower, and as he does, a dove, he likes startles a dove, so to speak, out of the bushes, right? And it flies off. Oh, see the dove? Like he cares for you the way he cares for a sparrow, that kind of thing. So sometimes it's used to just advance the story, other times it's just to add more realism to what would have been going on at that day and time. You know, people were Mary was riding a donkey, here she comes into Bethlehem, you know. So uh that is that is a significant part of how we get to tell story, which is really fun too, because it's it's a great way to connect with various audience members. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Tell us what happened with uh with Mordecai and the horse. Yeah. Because these these animals, you know, you you have your agreements with them to make sure you're okay, you horse, you're gonna do this at this time, and you're not gonna do this. Um, but they don't always uh do things as brands.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean, fortunately, they're extremely consistent with their blocking, uh, you know, like like human actors are. It's amazing how well they get to know the show and the timings based on the lighting and the music, and they know when they're supposed to come off the stage and uh uh and they follow that really, really well. Um, however, the one thing they have a little harder time controlling is when they're going to um answer the call of nature. So, yes, uh Queen Esther, we I was watching the show in June. I was in Branson, and um, yeah, there's this great moment, of course, in the story where Haman has to lead Mordecai through the streets on the king's horse, wearing the king's robe, pronouncing before him, you know, this is what will happen to the man who the king delights in and delights to honor. So it's a great moment in the show, like such a turning of reversal of fortune, so to speak. The audience is losing their minds, it's just a great climactic moment. And so he gets downstage center, and the horse decides this is the time. I need to go to the bathroom right now. And yeah, no hiding that. Yeah, sometimes you can you can get away with it as a subtle way. No, I mean the audience loses it, but the best part was watching the actor's ad lib off of that. And Heyman just owned it, like holds his nose. I mean, it just it added to the story. I mean, so I think I don't know, maybe the Holy Spirit inspired the horse at that moment. I don't know, but it took it to another level than what we ever could have planned or directed. So there are those things that you just you plan as best you can, but yeah, it is a live show.
SPEAKER_00So that's right, it happens, it happens at a given moment. So so sight and sound is is not is a ministry, and I find it interesting, especially you know, given the the topic and the theme of this particular show, that that you are very uh definitively a ministry, yet a lot of people would assume that means you're nonprofit. Because if you're gonna have be a ministry, that means you can't be you can't be for profit. Uh so what is the rationale in really running with that identity as a ministry?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, great question. Uh, because we recognize that it's more unusual. We're not the only one like that. Uh, we know of other ministries that are also for-profit businesses, but it is less common and less understood. Um, and really, I think two main things. The first would be our roots. Our roots came out of business uh through the business of photography, which turned into the ministry of storytelling through media and multimedia originally, as big slideshows. Or first theater we opened in 1976 was designed to just have very large slideshows uh that were presenting the gospel that way. And because it birthed out of a business, I just at the time I don't think there was any any thought given to it. It was just like, hey, this is who we are, we're now called to do this instead of what we were doing, shooting weddings, et cetera. And so it just kind of naturally became that. But then, of course, as it grew, at times we had to kind of pause and reflect and go, okay, is there a reason we should convert this to a nonprofit? Um, other obviously there's some advantages on the tax front to do that, but uh, we always felt like, no, for whatever reason, we're called to stay in this vein. And I think that reason is primarily it puts a high level of creative accountability on whatever we create, people have to love it. And it needs to be excellent, and they need to be willing to pay the ticket price to see it so that we can afford to continue to create new stories, and so that's just become our norm. And I'm really glad it is. Like there's just something about that that feels right for the way we were called to do what we do, and so here we are telling stories.
SPEAKER_00How do you think it where do you think the ministry would be had at some early stage um the the founders would have decided, you know what, this is uh we just don't like the because I'm sure there was some some um you know just just self-righteousness that came from others and said, Oh, you can't be a for-profit ministry. Um, like had they given into that, where do you think the the organization would be today?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a good question. Um, I mean, a a verse, one of the theme verses the Lord challenges me with on a regular basis is uh the verse that says, fear of man will prove to be a snare. Um, recognizing the all the ultimate metric we have for success is obedience to what we sense the Lord leading us to do. Um, He takes care of the fruit. Like our responsibility is to know him and to, out of knowing and abiding in his presence, obey what he reveals. Um, so I think if they had, if they had done it, especially with the motive to, boy, we're under a lot of heat here, you know, so we look better if I don't think we'd exist, frankly, today. Not that we couldn't still exist if we were a nonprofit, and who knows? You know, there may be a point in time where we sense the Lord's like, okay, steer that direction. Okay, he knows better than we do. He's in tomorrow. We're still here today. Um, so I boy, it would be interesting how that played out. But I think because we've just never had that mindset, and I do find there can be an unfortunate and unfair mindset sometimes. This is not a general blanket statement, but sometimes people have a perspective, oh, it's nonprofit, so the quality is going to be lesser, you know, or hey, it's a good cause, I'll go see it, or I'll donate to it. But yeah, the final product, it was okay. Um, that just is really antithema for us and our call. And I really credit our founders, Glenn and Shirley, for that. I mean, they just put everything into this from day one, um, whether it was literally financially everything into it and continue to just pour it back in, um, or just everything's got to be the best that we can afford it could possibly be. And that meant we have taken on massive risks over our entire career. Uh, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Like it's a faith proposition. So it's, you know, one of our uh key advisors likes to challenge us with reminding us by saying, like, hey, what's one time he asked us the question, so what's the opposite of faith? You know, because we recognize we're called to live the life of faith. Without faith, it's impossible. Please God, we get that. But he's like, What's the opposite? So we're going back and forth, you know, is it fear, is it doubt, whatever? And he's like, No, he's like, I would I would suggest the opposite of faith is simply sight. And the temptation is we always want to see, like, uh, I want to see it. I want to know, I don't want to see it. Well, if I can see it, then faith isn't in the equation, it's not required. So the primary posture of faith is listening, right? Faith comes by hearing. And if we can't see it, then we had better hear, so we know where to head. So that's they have modeled that, our founders, and thankfully we've been blessed uh with amazing people and leaders that have embraced that call to take big, crazy, scary risks. Like, hey, let's open a theater in 1,100 miles away in Branson in 2008 when the Great Recession is about to hit. That would be lots of fun. Let's do that. Um, you know. But what's fun about that is when you step out of the boat, if you will, it puts you in a place where you you got you, you know you got nothing on your own strength. Like you, there's no illusion. Oh, we got this, we can figure this out. When you're in that place of just kind of really suspended and resting in God's faithfulness, it requires you to go deep with Him and to see, okay, Lord, how what's next? Because we clearly don't know how to survive this, but we believe you've called us to this moment. So what's your wisdom for now? You know, what's your wisdom for today? And he just, like James said, he's faithful to give it if we ask in faith. And we have seen that countless times. That's well, it's the only way, it's the only way we know how to do this. Tell these stories in the middle of cornfields and such. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00And you've worked at basically every level of the organization from starting out as a stage hand in 1994 and uh pretty much every level of of management in between there. And and sight and sound is definitively a ministry. What is it that makes sight and sound a ministry compared with a company that is could just frankly not be considered a ministry?
SPEAKER_01Right? Yeah, for us, it just goes back to the why, right? Like, why are we called and created to exist as an organization, um, as a as a business or or whatever, whatever the organization is. And for us, the Lord has just made that so clear from those early days. Uh, today, the way we would say it is we we did this um walk down an exercise probably five, six years ago now, of really clarifying, we had a very clear, compelling mission, which has been the driver from day one. It's really was Glenn's personal mission that became our corporate mission. And that was to present the gospel through, he didn't say stage, but through multimedia, through storytelling. And that's still true today. But we went, we kind of went on a refining journey of the mission's important, but what's the vision? Because the mission is more the what that we do that actually accomplishes the vision. And so we walked through that exercise, it was very clear what that vision is. And when I say vision, I mean something so big that only God can do it, right? Like it's way beyond us. But he's inviting us to be a part of seeing it become a reality. And so for us, our vision, everything we do here is to see the world transformed by the church walking in the fullness of its identity in Christ. That's it. How are we called to do that? By telling his stories through who we are and what we do. So that's the vision of the mission, simplified at this point. So our whole reason for existence is to see that happen, to see the world transformed through the gospel. Really, the gospel is lived out through the church. Ephesians 4 is very uh significant for us, as far as how that outlines oneness of the body, five-fold ministry offices, all those things given to the church so that the world will come to Christ through our oneness, et cetera, et cetera. I could preach, I get excited about this, but um, but anyhow, you get the point. So for us, that's the that's the driver. And that's why it's like, hey, how we do that then for us happens to be storytelling, but the why is always is the kingdom being revealed through what we do, and not just what we do, how we're doing it, even more so. Uh, we're big, big believers in the process is more important than the product. Um, who we're being, how we do it, those two things equal the product. So we try to focus most of our priority, most of our energy on who we're being and how we're doing what we're doing. And uh amazing how the product kind of takes care of itself when you do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and on that note, I want to circle back to a really powerful thing you said earlier, this distinction between world class and kingdom class. And how does that how do you live that out day to day?
SPEAKER_01Yeah in the conversation. Great question. Yeah, because it it takes hard work, um, especially collaborating with each other, which is the only way you can do that, right? So it starts with humility that says nobody in the room knows best, nobody in the room is always right, only God is thankfully he is in the room if if we seek and listen to his voice. So it requires humility. Like divas just don't survive here at sight and sound, like that just doesn't work. Um, because no one has the market cornered on hearing God's wisdom. And so we need each other, and that's that's God's design is oneness. He's so passionate about diversity, choosing to come together in Him in oneness. Like, and what we can create when we do that goes to a whole nother level. So, for example, how we do that day to day, right? And like in the creation of a show, we start with prayer and discerning what's that next story we're called to work on. And we know when we when you know we launch that new production, it'll be four years until it's on the stage. That's our about the process of what it takes. So at the front end, you're discerning what the story is and who the producer is going to be. And our in our world, the producer is who carries the vision through from start to finish. Over those four years and cast that communicates it to the designers and the construction team and ultimately the operations team who's going to run the show. So, anyhow, so once that's discerned, we start moving towards it. Their job is to primarily just keep casting that clear, compelling vision. And ultimately the buck stops with them from a creative decision standpoint, but they're they're holding it loosely in the sense that we want everyone's best thinking in the room because God loves to give nuggets of wisdom through each of us in our unique, creative, different ways. And when we have years to hear that, we get a much better end result. And it's more fun because we're all fully engaged in it. So what I love is you get to the end of a show and people point out a moment or an effect, like, oh, whose idea was that? And almost every time we're like, I don't know. Like, yeah, well, Jay had this thought, and then you know, Jen chimed in with this, and then you know, like it's it's a team, and we know the inspiration for it comes through the Holy Spirit. So we have a team that is completely committed to Lord, what are you saying? How are we gonna solve this? There's this crazy big idea, you know, like when we did Goliath for David, it's the most ambitious robotics project we've ever done. Very technical set. Um, you know, so that team is like, okay, Lord, how do we do this? So when you have engineers and um designers and automation experts who are first going, Lord, what's your wisdom? And then he's giving them creative solutions and ideas, and they're bouncing them off of each other. And before you know it, you've got this incredible set that does amazing things, which is awesome. What's more awesome to me is how they got there. That's the point. So we we apply it very practically, um, because frankly, we don't know any other way, and I don't want to know any other way than just simply asking, because the way I picture it is like he's always in the room, right? Like he said, he lives in us, his spirit is in us as believers. And when two or three are gathered, we know he's in our midst. So when it whether it's a team meeting, a huddle, or two engineers trying to solve a problem, it's like I picture Christ ever present and he's like, just let me help. I so want to do this with you. Like, let me help. But he's such a gentleman, he won't force it. He's just not about control. He is love. And so there's this invitation to join him in what he's doing. And it's so beautiful when we as a team recognize that we just go, man, I'm stumped here. Lord, what's what's the answer? What's your wisdom? And before you know it, there's an idea or a name. Oh, maybe I should ask Ken what he thinks. And you go talk to Ken and he's like, Oh, why what about blah blah blah blah? And you're like, Oh my word, that answer is something I just spent six hours trying to figure out that I had no idea. Maybe I should have asked the Lord at the beginning instead of at the end, but he is gracious that way. Yes, um, so that's how we find it. It's it's not complicated. That doesn't mean it's easy. Yeah, right? It's simple, but our own heads, our flesh gets in the way, our own responsibility. Ah boy, I should know I'm the CEO. Boy, I should have answers to this, da da da da da da, or whoever. And the whole point is, God's like, no, no, I have the answers, and I'd love to share them with you. If you pursue my heart, boy, I'd love to reveal them. Yeah. And it there's just nothing like being in a room stuck, and he shows up and solves your problem for you. There's just nothing like it. It's so much fun, it's contagious.
SPEAKER_00And you were saying earlier that the the vision, the mission really is to see the church walking in the fullness of what was the the verb.
SPEAKER_01In the fullness of its identity in Christ, sort of said said short, often our shorthand internally, is we want to see the church be the church, yeah. Um, as it's designed to, meaning the church is primarily it is the body of Christ, designed to be his his governance here, if you will, um, in partnership with the Holy Spirit, to see his kingdom revealed. Uh or it's like, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was gonna say, is that something that you really emphasize internally among the team that this really starts with us being the church?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, it's an inside out thing. That's I'm so glad you asked that because I mean that's true. I would say that's true of anything culturally, right? Like you can set a bar for what you want your guest, your customer to experience, you know, whether it's just take customer service, right? Like, ah, we want to treat our guests great and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, if we're not living that way ourselves, it's gonna limit the extent our guest is actually gonna feel it. Uh, because another great reminder, our key advisors like to challenge us with is you can only impart what you possess, right? Like, I can't give you something I don't have. So it's an inside out approach. So if we want great customer service, if we want our frontline staff to love on our guests, guess what? We better be loving on each other. Uh, or it's not gonna work. It's gonna be limited to what it is because it's got to come out of who we are. So the same thing applies to your point with that vision. It's a great compelling vision. Our primary focus is how are we living that out today, us inside. Because that's if we're not, it's we can only communicate so far to the guest, to the church, so to speak. So it does, it starts with us, and that's where the the first accountability, the highest account accountability has to be. Not that we can do that perfectly, we're human, you know, we get that. Um, but it's ever moving towards being like Christ, which is really the goal of our culture, is how we define it. Oneness that allows us to mature into the fullness of the image of Christ. That's what we want to see. Any any employee, whether you're here six weeks or sixty years, like that's the goal. Um, because as that happens, that will help the church trans or the church be the church and the world be transformed.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. And on the on the team, have you run into any legal issues with employees saying, uh, you know, I'm not I'm not part of the church. I'm just I'm I'm just here to work, you know. Like I'm not uh and you can't make me be a Christian. And like, is that and I'm sure there's like uh you know, you're you're assessing for values on the hiring process, but uh I'm I'm assuming you're not saying you gotta be a Christian, work here.
SPEAKER_01Um, or actually we do is there some actually we do require that, yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah, and the reason we we do that is if you look at like the um uh the Civil Rights Act, right, of 1964, which was such a foundational and critical piece of legislation uh back at the time that that was put into place and still today, um, within there, there is a character characterization of um religious organizations, would be the terminology, right, that the government uses. We would say ministry, uh, but they would call it a religious organization to basically say, hey, religious organizations, they actually can hire on the basis of religion as a qualifying factor because they are a religious organization. And then when it talks about what defines a religious organization, the first and most significant thing it outlines is that the purpose and the intent and the design of the organization is to promote religion. We wouldn't use that language per se, but according to the law, that's exactly what we're doing. That's the whole reason we exist, is to proclaim the gospel, as we were just talking about. Um, so in that in that vein, thankfully, the writers of that act back in 1964 had the foresight to recognize hey, there's an appropriate context where you can hire on the basis of religion and the free exercise of religion that the Constitution guarantees us. Um so, in that sense, we can hire that way, and we do. The most important thing we have learned is to be very clear and up front. We're not trying to sneak anything or surprise anybody. Like anybody who comes to a show or comes to uh to be interviewed by us or is curious what it means to work there, if you don't love Jesus, you're gonna be miserable here. Like that is that's the whole reason we're here. It doesn't matter if you're mowing the grass or you're on stage playing a you know, a cast. It takes the united body of Christ to pull this off. That's why it's such a big deal and matters so deeply. Uh, that equal yoking that 1 Corinthians, I think it's uh 15 maybe talks about. Um really, really essential. And we have found that just the way the Holy Spirit speaks through us combined. Again, not even hierarchically. Like, I love it. Like he speaks, he's he's not a respecter of persons that way. Or, well, I'm sorry, your title is this, so you're not gonna hear from the Lord on that. So no, no, no, no. Uh he's he loves to see us work together as his body. So that does give us space for it. So that has helped big time over the years. So nobody's surprised when they when they're hired here, like, oh wait, you're all Christians and we're we're preaching the gospel here through stories. I don't want to be part of that. Like, that's that's that's the why. That's why people are here. They're like, I want to be a part of that. Like, that's what I am called to do. I want to do that with my fellow believers. Uh, so that's really helped that. I would say at times I remember where bumps would come is as we grew culturally and we realized, like, wow, we need to make more of our emphasis as we develop each other on deep spiritual principles, not just here's practical business tips or whatever. Uh, at that time when we made that pivot, there were I remember we had a few conversations like I get you, but you know, I go to church Sunday, like I just want to do my job, like, you know, do I need to hear about what it means to be oneness as the body of Christ for two hours, you know, on a on a Monday afternoon. And I just want to go build stuff. Um, and those are good conversations because we're like, I get that, and you're here to build stuff, but I'm telling you, to the extent that we understand and function in oneness, it's gonna make building stuff way more fun, way more efficient. You're gonna get better, you're gonna build better. It's it's just gonna, and there was a season we kind of had to prove it a little bit, you know, like actually the shows are gonna be better because we're focusing more on how we're creating them than just the final product. And that was a pivot we had to make in really right around 2008 through 2012, I would say. It's just a deepening of our mindset around what it meant to lead in a kingdom culture. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00And do you have a pretty strong sense that that your organs that sight and sound that disciples are being made when people come to work? Like that this is really sort of the you know, I think about Jesus on the on the boats, and he's just yeah, he's just making disciples everywhere he goes, often in in these workplace contexts. Is that is that what you really see going on there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's funny because it's not even like um a word we've used a lot or uh um like, hey, we're setting out for you know to have discipleship happen. Um, but it's actually what's happening, and that's what's cool because I think when you think about disciple making, it's so much of it happens, it's intentional, yes, but it happens organically in doing life together. And you see how Jesus did that, right, with his actual disciples. As they're going, they're like, Whoa, why are we going to the Gaterenes? Well, we're here for this guy, yeah. But it's the place of the dead. We're Jewish, like, we don't go there. No, no. We're going to seek and save the lost. Um, so it was in their doing, in their day-to-day living, that they were conformed more towards his image and likeness. That's what excites us about when I think about business, like even take sight and sound out of the equation, right? Like any organization where we're believers coming together to do something we're called to do, what an amazing opportunity in our 40 hours or so together a week to actually become more like Christ together. So, man, one of my favorite conversations is anytime an employee is like, hey, wow, like I realize that I've become a better husband, better father, a better brother, a better friend, because I'm actually applying the stuff we're learning at work and that we're that we're doing together. I'm like, exactly, like that's the point. Like, it's not just work stuff, like this isn't just sight and sound stuff. We're not that smart. Like, this is God's idea. Uh, we just get to join him in what he's already doing, and then we see the fruit that comes out of that. So uh yeah, that's cool. Like, I love that. There's nothing more fun to me than when you see people keep growing and developing and going beyond where they were when they started and where you first met them. And that's man, that that's why I wake up and come to work. That's what I get excited about.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, it's a beautiful thing happening at sight and sound. Uh site and sound.com is the website. Um, anything else you want to say about how people can? I know you've got a streaming platform, so people can um we can go watch and and uh watch, I guess was there are there eight of them now, or how many are out there?
SPEAKER_01Boy, I should know the answer to that. That's a good question. Uh yeah, that sounds about right. There might be a little bit more than that, but um, yeah, shows that we've created that are available on site and sound TV, uh, which you can get through a website or any app store. Uh it's an app-based, but even that's a cool story. Just God's faithfulness is amazing. Not just his faithfulness, but the way he takes hardship and turns it towards in a in a redemptive way, what what he wants for what's next. I'll give you an example, right? So 2019, we were talking about moving towards a streaming platform. I was like, yeah, that'd be neat. We're starting to take steps, but it was we thought it was gonna be a little ways away. 2020, we have uh Queen Esther ready to premiere in mid-March. And what was supposed to be our first day of our opening day was our first day of shutdown here in Pennsylvania. And I was like, oh my word, now what? And so it was a you know crazy day making all those decisions and uh you know, honoring the governor's request at that point for large venues to close and all of that. So we're scrambling and figuring it out. So it was an exhausting day. And I remember waking up the next day, and I'm just like, wow, what just happened? Like, Lord, what is happening? What are we gonna do? How long is this gonna be? All that stuff. And he just kept reminding me of his faithfulness through past adversity that we had faced, through a fire when we lost our theater in the 90s and all kinds of things. Anyway, but what's cool, he didn't just remind me of his faithfulness, he reminded me of specific ways he took, he used those things to take us from where we were to where we were supposed to be next. And so I had this energized passion of like, whoa, okay, Lord, how are you gonna work through this, this shutdown moment to take us to where you want us to be next? So I go to work and I'm kind of excited. I run into Josh, who's my close colleague, my brother-in-law, he's our president and chief story officer. And I'm like, man, you're never gonna guess what I woke up with. So I share it with him. He's like, no way. It's like, guess what? I woke up with. He's like, I woke up with this overwhelming sense of if people can't come to us, how can we go to them? How can we reach them in their living rooms with these stories? And so he and the team got aggressive on like, okay, well, what would it look like for us to spin up sight and sound TV much quicker than we thought? And by that September, we had launched it. And just to see what's happened since then, I worded people in over 175 countries tuning in and hearing these stories of hope and redemption and salvation, like that would not have happened that way. It was crazy. So, like 2020 at that point, right? That year, we were closed for months in both locations. Probably our worst financial year we've ever had, like brutal, brutal year. And yet, because of sight and sound TV, because of putting Jesus out for free on TBN, the end of that year, we're like, oh my word, we were able to minister to far more people this year than we ever have in a single year, hands down. And yeah, we barely survived it financially, but we're still here and God's faithful. And it was awesome, like it was a reason to celebrate. It was like, look at what he did, as only he can do. Yeah, it's sort of that thing he asked Moses, right? What's in your hand? Because he's you know, Moses is like, ah, not me, you know. I said my brother, he talks and all this stuff. He's like, Nah Lord, you got the wrong guy. Um, and God's like, What's in your hand? I got this staff, throw it on the ground. Oh, it's not just a staff. When God's involved, what's in your hand, right? It's just a seed that could turn into who knows what, a forest, whatever. So it was that that was that's what we've experienced again, and again, what's in your hand? Okay, here you go, Lord. What are you gonna do with this? Uh-oh. Far greater anything that we could have hoped, dreamed, or seen or imagined, right? Um, so anyhow, so yeah, it's fun. It's fun to be able to have these stories accessible to the world instead of just coming to two locations. It's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Wow, it's amazing what's happening. And there's just tremendous, you were telling the story earlier before we started recording about you know, one of your favorite experiences when you know the a man walks in with his arms folded, like, oh come on, what's this? What's his church play about? And then uh by the end of it, he's crying. There's you know, it just there's this tremendous respect for what you're doing. Um, that I have that it that that our culture has for what you're doing. I mean, you can go look on your Google reviews are over 21,000 reviews averaging 4.9, which is just unheard of. Um, and it's it's because you're doing things not just world class, but kingdom class. And thank you for uh inspiring us and challenging us with that. Uh, you're you've certainly made us better and looking forward to when uh sight and sound has a theater in my neighborhood with uh Invision Forge. Um, that's gonna be awesome. Hey, until that day, we've got streaming sight and sound TV. Um so everybody go and check that out. Hey, it's up to him.
SPEAKER_01That's what we say, right? Like if he if he knocks, we'll answer. That's that is up to the Lord, right? So hey, we'll see.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And if you're ever in Branson or Lancaster, Pennsylvania, definitely go check out a sight and sound show. I'm looking forward to it myself. Um, Matt, uh, this has been a really fun chat. Thank you for uh making this better today.
SPEAKER_01Likewise. Thank you, Darren. Love what you're doing. It's really encouraging. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.