Welcome back to the Christianity in Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Sheer, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On today's episode, we're joined by Nate Fisher. Nate is founder and CEO of New Founding, a venture firm and talent network focused on cultural and economic renewal. He's also co-founded American Reformer, which applies Protestant social and political thought to contemporary challenges through its journal, research and advocacy work, and fellowship programs. Nate previously co-founded a real estate investment firm that grew to more than $1 billion in assets and has a variety of other entrepreneurial and investment experience. He's a Claremont Lincoln fellow and lives in Dallas, Texas with his wife and four kids. Nate, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
SPEAKER_01When did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work in the marketplace?
SPEAKER_00So this is it's an interesting question. It was an element of how I've approached my career uh from the very beginning. So I grew up, I grew up in a Christian family. Uh we were homeschooled, uh, which was pretty early at that time. Uh it was pretty early to be homeschooled in New York, uh, surrounded by people who were very thoughtful about applying uh applying our distinctly Christian uh approach to a lot of elements of life. Uh so I think from the very beginning, that shaped this idea for a positive vision of the world, to be to be part of creating a positive vision of the world that was compatible with Christianity, uh, certainly was something that I felt from the beginning. Uh, I think there's a difference between uh compatible with Christianity and really uh I think fully appreciating uh I think fully being motivated by creating something that's that that's there to glorify God, glorify Christ. And that was something that I really came to heavily, uh, probably between about 2015 and uh 2015 and about probably the second half of that decade. I I had spent four years uh very successfully in distressed real estate investment. Uh that trade kind of matured. It was a very uh, I think it was a very timely move. Uh and as I was thinking about what to do next and what the next business opportunities were, it really uh it really ended up focusing around what is actually going to uh proactively, uh proactively be a space where I feel like I'm uh I'm really advancing a world that is uh solving an important problem uh and one that is compatible with uh what I saw as needs coming from my Christian vision.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So this idea that you have to go to seminary and go stand in a pulpit uh as the only way to really do something meaningful for God, this that just never really occurred to you. You you just always understood that you wanted to that you could serve God out, you know, do doing whatever he's called you to do.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. It was really a question of I think the defining feature was sort of what am I made for? What am I good at? What do I enjoy? What I what gets me excited, actually, to some extent. I mean, in many ways, I think we're made, we are made as creative agents, uh, going to Genesis one. Uh, we're made in the image of God. The first thing God did is He created, He created things in the world. So to me, that aspect of creation, uh, in a sense, co-creation uh with God uh is uh it is fundamentally fulfilling one of the highest aspects of our our creation, the image of God. And uh certainly seminary, my brother went to seminary. Uh it was in my family, uh, we certainly were uh talking about a lot of the issues that are uh that are relevant to that. Uh, but I I always knew that my calling was uh was in that uh creative side.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and you mentioned that we are uh really counter to what we read about in Genesis 1 and and God creating, and then man and woman coming along and partnering with God in this in this creation mandate, uh, that we're now in a society that you said increasingly suppresses any distinctly human judgment in favor of technocratic and bureaucratic alternatives. Um, what do you mean by that? And what are the consequences of that for business?
SPEAKER_00So, yes, I think that this is something that arises. It's it's not a new thing. It's in many ways uh comes out of a fundamentally materialist worldview. A materialist worldview, a progressive view of the world is one that idealizes uh, it idealizes the scientific, it idealizes uh material systems. And that's been in many ways, that's been the the prevailing ideology of our society's elites for uh at least 100 years, probably uh going back uh beyond that. And there's been a progressive attempt to uh first off, I just think when you have a materialist worldview, you tend to have a low view of humans. There's a low view of people. Uh people are just a they're they're just a form of mass. Uh they're and they're they're imperfect ones. And uh often it's substituted with a higher view of reason, but when you have a low view of people, your uh vision of reason itself is actually dehumanized in a way, and it it's sort of reduced to the deductive or reduced to the analytical. So what you have is a desire to uh I think it's best illustrated with something like hiring. Uh you're hiring someone, there's a significant element of judgment that goes into you can get to know the person. There's just enormous numbers of factors, if you've especially if you've been in a community with them, that can go into a judgment of is this someone I want to work with? Is this someone I want to bet on? Is this someone who I think is going to perform well, I who I bet is gonna go far in his career? And that's uh it's a it's a human judgment on your part about another person, which is incredibly complex and incredibly sophisticated. And I think there's a goal, uh they would sort of fundamentally be suspicious of that. You actually look at woke ideology today, and woke ideology at its very essence is suspicious of that judgment. It assumes that to the extent that you're you're making judgments like that, they're the product of your racism, they're the product of your sort of systemic biases of various sorts. Uh again, they assume that anything that you do that's human is actually fundamentally uh corrupted by those, uh almost probably irreparably corrupted by those. And the goal is how can we replace it with fair process? I think the the traditional scientific one was can we replace it with fair processes? Can we replace things with tests? Can we replace things with objective metrics? There's a huge uh emphasis on objectivity. Uh essentially, could you justify why you would hire this person over another person on a spreadsheet? Uh, could you justify this investment or this business decision on a spreadsheet? And if you have to justify everything on a spreadsheet, that's just gonna be a flattening and a deadening of the decisions. And it's gonna always favor uh that which can be quantified, that which can be uh formulated through a test. And I think you've seen that across every aspect of our economy. Uh, and you look at the world and and and you can sort of uh people intuitively sense it. The world feels cold in a lot of ways. The process of your career feels increasingly cold. You have to get into the right school in elementary school so that you're gonna be sort of going through the grades in a in a way that's gonna put you on the right trajectory to get into the highest ranked school. The entire, the entire decision of what school you go to comes down to, well, what rank it is, and what rank it is is going to determine what sort of rank of employer you get into. And that's a very cold dead process, uh, which shapes more and more of our world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. As you're talking, it made me think of um uh I read some by Uval Harari, where he talks about uh how we've gone from theism where God is the center, to uh humanism where man is the center and really the highest authority, to now dataism, where the algorithm is the highest authority. And and I think AI is that on steroids, is we're we're hearing more and more about. I mean, so this I mean, is this something that's going to be reversed, this trend? Because now we have the tools to be able to um, I mean, turn just the um the data god into something much more powerful than than it really has been.
SPEAKER_00So that's that's a fascinating question. I like to I'll start with the initial transition you described. And I think it's it's an interesting point. And you have a lot of people who would consider themselves humanists, uh in some sense. They they value the human and they want to return to that period where man is the center. But uh Calvin, uh, I believe in his institutes begins with uh something along the lines of uh to know yourself, you must first know God. And if we're made in his image and we don't first know God, if God's not the center, if we don't first know God, uh we may focus on man at the center, but man at the center isn't is going to be a flawed picture of man and an incomplete picture of man. In many ways, a picture of man that is reduced to the material and that eliminates the essential uh Imago Dei component. So it's sort of inevitable that man at the center is actually going to be reduced to uh to, or it's natural that in a rationalist-oriented society, that'll be reduced to data at the center. That'll be reduced to uh that'll be reduced to the products of our reason. And uh we're seeing that now where man is now uh secondary. And I think there's this view that we can have superhuman uh AI, superhuman reason. Uh, and it doesn't even need to be superhuman AI in the the sense of uh a singularity. It's just the bots that shape so much of our life that are driven by data, they do, they do shape our minds. Uh there is this, there's this desire in many ways to turn over as much of our lives as possible to the swarm, uh to the bots. And that's uh that is almost a sort of voluntary surrender of the humanity. So whether this is reversed, I think is ultimately a spiritual question in many ways. Uh you have people who they realize that man at the center is uh insufficient. Uh, I think the that you could say the sort of humanist religion of uh maybe the last century, the optimism associated with that, the materialistic optimism, is clearly dead now. It's clearly gone. It's unsatisfying to people. And in many ways, they welcome a uh a handing over of decisions to a higher power. Uh they they they want that. People who have uh people want God. They want a God. And in many ways, that that fills that goal for them. Uh I don't believe that's going to be satisfactory, uh, but I think that will be a powerful, powerful drive for a lot of people. Uh, and whether uh whether the digital age is defined by a return to God and through God, a true understanding of the human and a true understanding of man's role in society, or a uh an aiming for transhumanism, which I think you could easily uh analogize to Babel in many ways. To me, to me, Babel epitomizes uh the transhuman impulse going back uh very early. And uh that's ultimately a spiritual war. And that I think will define the shape of the digital age.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, it's it's wild how dependent. I mean, it's even aside from AI, just how dependent we become on the algorithm for where am I gonna go to eat, where am I going to live, um, you know, what house am I going to buy? What am I gonna listen to? It's all algorithm driven. And I mean, whoever controls the algorithm really is controlling thought and what people are are being exposed to. And now AI is just taking this to a whole new level. I mean, my um my nine-year-old son just finished um working with a writing coach to develop the story and we're gonna publish it. I have a publishing company, so we're gonna we're gonna help him turn it into a printed book. And he didn't want to do the the illustrations uh just because you know he's not super confident in his artistic abilities at this point. And um, and so I'm like, okay, well, either this book is not gonna have illustrations or we're gonna have to pay an illustrator, you know, a couple hundred dollars to get these custom uh drawings made. And then I find out about this AI tool, um, where you we just go in, for example, we needed a picture of a crocodile and a hawk sitting inside uh like a medieval dungeon jail cell type of thing, um, from the outside looking in. We typed this into the into the AI, and it gives us exactly what we need, like in the exact style that we need it in. Um and I mean, I guess that was one of the first tastes that I've had, and this is just like a week ago that I I I encountered this, uh, just a taste of the application into other and into other fields to where we didn't need to go pay a couple hundred dollars to a human being to go to go and do that. Um, which uh, you know, part of me is like sad about that, but then the other part's like, well, I'm glad I don't have to pay you know $150, $200 just to get that one picture drawn.
SPEAKER_00I I think that's I I think that's very it's fascinating because it's a source of creative leverage. Your son is able to come up with a story, he he believes, presumably if he's if you're publishing it, he the the the thesis is that he has something interesting and valuable to offer in the story. What what the AI allows him to do is it allows him to gain creative leverage to actually expand that to uh to the illustration. But it's it's a tool that has made him uh more effective, just like publishing is a tool that lets him take his story and get it out to other people. So I actually think it's uh that's the kind of thing we can absolutely embrace. Uh, but obviously the the point about controlling the algorithms is profound because you can imagine a world where those are they're not neutral. And uh it may be less evident in the visual ones, but certainly if it comes to uh where you eat and a lot of the the ones that are shaping its, they are going to profoundly shape your life. And I what's interesting is I think a lot of people lament this. Again, a lot of a lot of Christians even get nervous about technology. They don't like technology. I would say as a conservative, people get inherently nervous about technology because technology is fundamentally going to destroy the sort of norms and processes that uh have existed in the past. And if you're a conservative and your sort of vision is limited to preserving good things of the past, that's inherently a threat. It's inherently bad. Uh, I believe as Christians, we are called to create, we're called to take dominion over the earth. And we actually have a positive vision of what we should be building toward, not just what we should be conserving. Uh, I think the story you gave is a great example of that. Your son has something he wants to create that's new. And we we can be excited about any tool that gives us leverage, that gives us, gives us more ability to create something. Uh, we should probably spend a lot of time discussing whether what we're creating is good. Uh, that becomes a fundamental question. It's not uh what threatens good things of the past. Uh I also, and this is actually one more interesting point. A lot of people lament the loss of human agency, right? Where you eat is going to be determined by the algorithms. I'm not as concerned about that. I think in many ways, the idea that we're these autonomous human agents with sort of full discretion over our world is in many ways, it's a conceit. It's in many ways been a conceit of a humanistic era that uh ignores the fact that our communities have always determined a huge amount about that. Uh norms developed over centuries have determined that. Uh, we've never been these autonomous human agents. The wokes, in many ways, are actually correct in some of their, some of their, they note how much uh society does shape beliefs. Uh, they're just inherently suspicious of all of those. I think they can be mixed good and bad. Uh, recognizing that algorithms are going sort of nudge you toward certain restaurants and other things is in many ways a sort of it undermines what was always a false conceit and forces us to accept a reality that uh we're actually living in a world where uh we are uh much smaller players uh than uh we might like to imagine. But then the profound question becomes who does catechize those algorithms? Who catechizes those bots? Are they catechized with Christian values? A society with good norms, in which you're gonna by default do good things, uh, in many ways has been a society that's been profoundly shaped and you could say culturally catechized by Christianity. Uh, and a lot of the norms are gonna actually encourage good things, good decisions. Uh a society in which the algorithms are uh catechized by something else, uh what you could certainly imagine uh the CCP pushing in China, uh, or in many ways our elites pushing is at the opposite of the. I would actually argue the CCP might not be as bad. Uh if if you've heard about TikTok in China, the the Chinese version of TikTok actually incur it'll have videos of like kids studying and making their bed and good stuff. Uh socially beneficial things, uh sure that's that's what the government wants them to do. Uh, I'm not sure that's worse than what uh TikTok in America is pushing on people. So uh maybe a sort of self-indulgence, algorithms that feed a self-indulgence are actually worse. But uh what's clear is it matters.
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely. And so tell us about new founding and what you're doing to really address some of the uh these and other problems and challenges going on in in society. Because, you know, for example, the AI uh revolution that's that's happening right now, like I in in mainstream conversations, I I don't it it seems like this uh focus on ethics and business and this discussion around ethics and business is almost unprecedented. Like I I haven't heard this many people talking about you know what's really good and bad for humanity at the at the core, like in in the mainstream news and and so forth. So there's a it's a really um prime time to be able to introduce and and bring responses to some of these these things going on. But what is what is new founding up to?
SPEAKER_00So our goal, our goal fundamentally is to build an alternative ecosystem uh economically to what I would say is an increasingly uh dystopian mainstream one. So uh increasingly corporations are moving into something that's obviously political. Uh, it's obviously dehuman in many ways, inhuman in many ways. Uh and there's a lot of ways to look at that, right? I mean, Facebook uh paying for its female employees to freeze their eggs so they can keep working five more years uh and put off uh childbearing, or uh companies paying for their employees to go get an abortion. Uh great examples of of a an extremely sort of inhuman corporate environment. But uh I think it appears in uh just increasing bureaucratization of everything. The hiring process is increasingly inhuman. The uh the process of capital allocation is increasingly driven by the black rocks of the world, which is so far distant from any sort. Sort of, and they they're intentionally passive, right? BlackRock loves to emphasize that their funds are passive. More and more, more and more of the important decisions in our society are being handed off to algorithms, to passive allocators, to bureaucracies that are as much as possible acting like algorithms. It's deadening to you as a high-performing person who wants to build something that matters. So our motto, a motto that's really attracted people is build the America you want to live in. And whether that's with your talents, whether that's as an investor, uh we uh we have a talent placement program where we essentially get people out of the board, for lack of a better term. And we uh we place them in companies that matter. And I would I would classify this as two categories. I'd say there's sort of ambitious ventures where you're really building a new system, building a new technology that is uh a clearly positive vision of culture. I think you're in publishing. Publishing is a great example of this. There's sort of huge creative, uh huge creative output that goes into what are we publishing, what are we amplifying to the world. Uh, but then there's also just the sort of the real. I mean, one antithesis of a uh, one antithesis of sort of meaningless bureaucracy is just a business that does something that matters. In many cases, that's a business that touches the physical world. I don't think the physical world necessarily is more real than uh the services sector, than the abstract, but it's uh uh you can't fake it in the physical world, let's put it that way. So it that's one form of business that you know if you're doing something hard there, it matters, is doing something, it's doing something real. And so get people out. And I think there's a stark demand we've seen among talented people. Uh many people at the best firms on Wall Street, for instance, who uh it it it went from being a sort of nice to have. Some of these things went from being a nice to have maybe 10 years ago to in the last few years, they became a very high priority. They really, really want to make a move. They realize that what they're doing day to day is not satisfying. It does not matter if they're making a lot of money. This is not what they want to be doing with their life, and they're looking for an opportunity. And so we uh we we connect with them and then we connect with employers. And I think there's a huge, huge opportunity for employers who offer something different, whether it's just a non-woke culture, they don't have to put up with a lot of stuff. Uh, whether it's a business that's sort of a smaller business where you're doing something, people can feel the meaning of it, uh, that traditionally has not been able to hire the best talent. Uh, in many cases, there was such a concentration of talent, uh, especially beginning about 20 years ago, in Wall Street, in these sort of elite firms, uh, in these big sort of metros. Uh, there's now an opportunity to, and then Silicon Valley, and then moved to Silicon Valley. There's now an opportunity to pick up very, very good people who sort of did what you were supposed to do. They sort of followed the rules of society and chased what was sort of recognized as the what competitive people do. Uh, and they they they're now willing to go in a different direction. They're now eager to go in a different direction. So for business owners, I strongly, strongly encourage uh them to look out, look at the sort of pipeline of talent that we can provide of people who want something different. And then uh there's a capital side where it's a deal room where we match investors and and entrepreneurs. And uh increasingly that is around uh startups that are actually doing something that can really uh build a positive vision of what we want. And there's some exciting startups in there. There's a lot of investors who are drawn to this. Uh increasingly, I think people, even in Silicon Valley, they sort of are they're they're drawn away from the pointlessness of sort of a number number five copycat social media uh effort in some space and recognize that uh even around to the extent there's connections, uh the people matter, the values of the community matter. I think with Elon's acquisition on Twitter, this became incredibly queer, uh incredibly clear, the norms governing. So uh yeah, so what does new founding do? We essentially we match people and opportunities, we match capital and uh and opportunities, and ultimately it's about organizing people to actually uh build the country they want to live in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Can you give us an example of of one or two of your investments or or maybe a particular story of an employee, somebody that was working in, you know, sort of for the wrong team, and then they sort of came over to the, you know, uh, to the right side?
SPEAKER_00Well, so a huge one. One of the early talent placements was actually a guy who was a uh he's a Christian. I met him through uh met him through someone uh with American Reformer. And uh he was actually a computer science professor at a uh large and sort of famously, uh famously lefty state university and was just in it it was growing increasingly intolerable for him, uh, to the point that the the last thing that sort of gave him uh the ability to hang on there was there was one well-known professor who was sort of an outspoken dissident. And then even that guy left. Uh, and we were able to introduce him to a group that was uh actively, there they were in Austin, they're actively trying to build uh technology that is that is conducive to digital sovereignty, conducive to individual sovereignty. So uh not uh not going to be controlled, alternatives to things controlled by Google. Uh and this guy had a deep background in uh, I think privacy was a little more privacy and security, but it was very related, very active in the open source community. And uh we made that introduction. It actually led to uh, he was actually building a little company on the side, building a product, and led to an aquahire of that, of that company, uh, which included the ability for him to leave uh leave the state university and move to uh full-time work on full-time work on building technology that is going to free you from a reliance on Google. So really, really exciting uh space to be in and very necessary. Uh in terms of companies we're investing in, uh there's a range, but I think another one that's sort of another end of the spectrum there is there's a uh there's a company called uh Flower Wild. And they are uh they're founded, they're they're a women's clothing company, and they're a women's clothing company that's founded by uh the uh wife of a pastor and designed to appeal to uh people who would be culturally aligned uh with them. And uh clothing is an area that you've seen the sort of profound uh influence of uh of a lot of problematic aspects of culture. I mean, the advertising deeply uh embedded in a sort of a vision of a way of life, uh the ideas of uh the design of the clothing obviously reflects uh all sorts of standards. And so uh to actually achieve cultural change, it's important to have uh it's very important to have cultural brands, cultural products that both advertise and make desirable, make aspirational a way of life. And I think we have a unique opportunity here going back as Christians, we actually understand beauty in a way that is uh true. And I think we've seen the other side in many ways surrender this. There's been a sort of descent into the embrace of ugliness uh in ways that are, I mean, art is a great example of this in many cases, but it's it'll be a common theme you see across a lot of pagan cultures, actually, is their their idols just look ugly, for instance. And uh meanwhile, Christianity produced uh some of the greatest art we've seen. So I think that uh uh keeping our eyes on God, in a sense, uh points us to higher beauty, which is going to be shaped in how we design clothing. It's gonna be shaped in how we uh the vision of life that we we present. And uh we can talk about that in very intellectual ways, but ultimately to actually influence a lot of people, actually having companies that have good advertisements that have good products uh is going to be far more influential in many cases. So that's a great example of a company that can uh meaningfully change the culture by providing a desirable alternative, uh, where in many cases the mainstream, uh mainstream options are headed off a cliff in the other direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I really believe what companies are marketing and promoting out into the world, first and foremost, is a culture. And, you know, because the people change, the products, services change, policies, but all of those things flow out of that company's culture that's being put out into the world, that's influencing their stakeholders, their their team members, their customers. And and so we have to be more careful about who we're aligning, what brands we're aligning ourselves with. I mean, because you know, there's there's this distinction about, you know, these are this is a lifestyle brand, you know, and they're referring to uh certain types of clothes that they um you know a person wears for a particular lifestyle, but uh but that company represents a set of values. And we need to really find out what those values are and partner with the companies that share our values. Um and that's that's what you're doing. Um Nate, so we want to send people to newfounding.com and it and so that's if they are potential investors, if they're if they have uh a certain skill set that might be a good match for one of your companies. What do you want to say about uh how uh who and how they should connect with you?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Well, you certainly uh you can follow me personally on Twitter. I'm most active on Twitter at Nate A. Fisher. And uh that's uh I I talk a lot about uh talk a lot about the business side, I also talk a lot about uh the evangelical uh world, some of what I'm doing with American Reformer, which is focused on uh addressing a lot of these issues in the church. Uh in many ways, I see them as two sides of the same coin. If we if we're thinking about what to build, we need to have a uh, I think we need to revitalize a Christian understanding of what we should be building toward. And Christianity has a lot to say to that. So I talked about both of those issues. Uh Newfounding, absolutely. Uh Newfounding.com. Uh, we love to uh have you in our network if you're interested in a job uh that helps you build the country you want to live in. And we have a growing talent network. Uh, as an employer, uh, again, cannot emphasize enough how strong of an opportunity this is to hire, especially. And our real focus has been the sort of technical, professional, executive level. Uh think of marketing. Marketing is an area where it it deeply matters. It's become deeply, deeply political, uh, which means you really can't just go to a neutral, there's no neutral marketing firm. A neutral marketing firm uh has uh long since uh gone over to be a very, very political effort in many cases. Uh so if you're hiring marketers, very important for them to uh to share your values. Uh we have great uh great pipelines of of people and spaces like that. Uh we're actually exploring, and this is uh again, if you're an investor, uh we're growing a list uh of deals, we're growing a list of investors. If you're an entrepreneur who has a uh startup you're looking to raise for, you can add that to the deal room. Right now, that's free. We'll probably be adding a price to that at some point, but right now it's it's free to match the investors and uh and uh startups. And we're actually exploring uh, and this is sort of early stage, so I don't want to say it's a finished product, but we're we're very interested in questions around small business succession as well. So you have huge numbers of small businesses uh where their owners are approaching retirement. They may be several years from retirement, but they they want to be in a position where they can. Uh the business is too small to be easily saleable potentially, or uh, or there would be more options if you had a person in place. And I'm very and then you meanwhile, I have this huge group of people who want to make a move toward the real economy, to real businesses, in a sense, out of Goldman Sachs, let's say. Uh, or or they're earlier in their careers and they're uh they're they're they're building this business experience and they decide they're not going to aspire to keep climbing the ladder there, and they actually want to move over to something like this. I'm very interested in questions around placing talent, matching what is often a significant talent gap, is people who maybe their kids never uh wanted to be a successor in the business. Uh, can we can we place successors there? So I'm very interested in talking to people there. Again, every business is different. There's a lot of complexity, but uh a business, a small business is a product of human creativity. It's an extension of sort of a a person's creative efforts in a way that is unique. And I think that the ability to work with these, that is almost the antithesis of this sort of bureaucratic economy, uh, is the small business economy. And the ability to help match people there is a big one. So another uh another area where we're interested in talking. And certainly if you go on as an employer uh on the new founding website, you can uh you can submit if you're very small and you're interested in a successor.
SPEAKER_01Okay. All right, everybody go to newfounding.com and let's build the country we want to live in. And I know we people have listeners listening all over the world. Uh, we're not just talking about people here in the United States, but build the country you want to live in and build it on um on biblical values. Nate, thank you so much for spending time with us today uh and and sharing your your wisdom, perspective with us. We're all better for it.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much, Darren.
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