Welcome back to the Christianity of Business Podcast, an initiative of the RGW Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On today's episode, we're joined by Miranda Carls. Miranda is a writer, podcaster, incorporate people, and organizational development coach and consultant. After managing the training and professional development functions of a large nonprofit, she spent eight years at a successful learning strategy firm where she served in a senior leadership role. And she's the author of the new book, The Word at Work: 10 Biblical Principles for Christian Professionals. And she's the host of the Word at Work podcast, where she interviews Christian business leaders and thought leaders within the faith and work movement. Miranda, welcome to the Christianity and Business Podcast.
SPEAKER_00Darren, thanks for having me. So good to be with you today.
SPEAKER_01When did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work and business?
SPEAKER_00I'm trying to pinpoint a moment because I think in some ways it's lots of little moments, but there was a big moment for me as well. So my background, as you said, is in people development. So I've spent a bulk of my career in corporate environments, working with teams in corporate settings. And I've been a Christian my entire life. So I don't know that I ever would have said that I was compartmentalizing my faith from my work, but I think I had a moment where God showed me that I was. So I a few years ago was in a coaching session with a leader that I was coaching. And this was a man that I had had a few sessions with up to this point. So we had good rapport, um, really was getting to know him. We were, I don't know, three, four, five sessions in. So this was not an initial meeting. And there was a moment in the conversation where we were deep in the weeds talking about something, and he had something big to share with me. And I could just tell by his body language and his demeanor, this was something big. There seemed to be some associated um shame or discomfort around sharing this. And so I'm sitting there thinking, oh, wow, what's what's he about to disclose with me or share with me? And he took a deep breath and he said, Well, I'm a Christian. And then he went on to explain how that impacts his um work. And I left that conversation just two things. Uh, first, this man um had a lot of associated shame and um discomfort around sharing just the fact that he was a believer with me. So there's there's something to that um to dig into there. And then second, we'd been meeting five or six times and he did not know that I was a Christian or that that was something that we shared. So it really just shined this big bright light on um the compartmentalization that um we tend to do as Christians, where we can be um, you know, I could be reading my Bible that morning and and praying and like living, walking the Christian life, but yet showing up at work and not not even mentioning it and living in such a way at work where people could think she's a great person, but not not see Jesus and label it as that um through me. So just a big spotlight shone on that. And then I started to really dig into more conversations and um thought and into the word about, you know, what should this look like for Christians? Um, how should we show up in the marketplace? How can we be less ashamed or uncomfortable about our faith? How can we not approach it like it's this dirty little secret that we have to, you know, take a deep breath and share and hope that we're not gonna get um, you know, judged for that? So that that was really probably a moment um for me, though it there's been lots of other smaller moments over the years as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What a powerful moment of conviction. What was your uh what was your next interaction like or your next session with that client like? How did how was how were things different?
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's so different, Darren. Um, and I I had had I've had I've worked with Christian clients and lots of non-Christian clients as well. And sometimes if if we know that about each other early in the relationship, we're able to integrate that in um and and talk about that. And it's really transformative. So with this gentleman, we were able then to talk about it and even um integrate prayer and biblical principles into the conversation. And that's really led to um differences in how I show up as a coach and consultant too. I'm very outward about that. And so people are able to um know that they can they can leverage that shared um worldview within our work together as well. Um, because as a Christian, that's so foundational to should be so foundational to how we show up in every arena of our life, work included. Um, so there's a lot of power that's unlocked when we're able to really engage um God in those conversations and and look at things through that lens and like I said, integrate prayer and digging into the word. And so it definitely um made a big difference in uh interactions with that gentleman. And um, I see it as a difference with all of my clients that I work with that are believers. Having said that, I also I work with a lot of um clients in secular settings that do not share in my faith. And we we still are able to do great work um there as well, but the conversations are different. Um, as most Christians know, there's just something really powerful with gathering with with brothers and sisters and being able to have those those conversations together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So before you work with clients now, uh, do you make a point to clarify that? Or is it more well, let's kind of see how how things go and and just kind of wait for the right moment later, or how do you approach that now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, well, I I do definitely market myself as a Christian coach. Like there's nothing hidden about that. Any um, you know, clients that find me on the web, I I have a Christian podcast. As you said, I've written a Christian book. Like it's um very outward, it's nothing that's hidden, and that's often a good doorway for them. They'll bring that up very early in the conversation. Um, and then I do have have some corporate clients that I work with where the organization has hired me. So um there's less of an emphasis on that faith aspect. Um, but something I would share with anyone who's working in a secular environment where you're not showing up and having faith-based conversations. Um, you're still able to apply those biblical principles with your interactions with people, even if you're not labeling them with a chapter or a verse. Like biblical principles just work in um any workplace setting. So it definitely impacts all of my client interactions, whether I'm working with Christians in the workplace or um people who don't necessarily share in my faith or um uh biblical convictions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I I literally just got an email from one of our authors today, uh, as you know, have a book publishing company. And his question was do I market this as uh as Christian fiction or general fiction? And my response is I I think what we need really need to focus more on is how are we gonna market you? Are we marketing you as a Christian author who writes about Christian themes and uh values? Um, or are we not going to do that? Or are we gonna do you know something else? So, you know, what do you tell somebody that is asking a semi-work question and whatever their field is? Um, you know, what there's probably some consultants listening to this. Like, do I market myself as a Christian coach, Christian consultant, or uh or not?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, I've seen it done really well both ways. Um, I have a lot of friends in the consulting and and coaching world, and I can think of lots of examples of of really solid um Christian uh coaches or consultants or service providers who don't necessarily market themselves with that label, but it still shows up in the work that they do. And then I can think of um those who do market themselves that way, and they're just gonna attract a different clientele. Um, so that's something to keep in mind. You're likely going to attract more um fellow Christians if you're marketing yourself in that way than you would if you're not. But at the end of the day, a lot of it's just how are you showing up in those interactions? And sometimes I think we ask, we ask that question of how should I market ourselves? But we take a step back. And a lot of people, it's not just that they're not putting um that that label on on their website or their business cards, but it's that there's this act of actively hiding it, um, which is I think an even like deeper question to dig into, like if we take a step back, because I have had a lot of clients who have talked through um, and and a lot of my clients work in in corporate settings, and they'll they'll speak to um again that that discomfort. And so they they tend to actively hide their faith at work. I once worked with an engineer um who said that he wasn't even comfortable saying, Hey guys, I'm heading out, I'm going to a church barbecue later today. Um, like didn't even want to mention something because then his mind would go through this spiral of, okay, well, all of these other engineers that I work with, will they question my intelligence? Um, will they, you know, what are some of the assumptions that they'll they'll make about me? So there, it wasn't it, it was almost more of an active hiding of that faith. So that's something really um, someone finds themselves in that place. That's definitely something to to dig into what's going on in the heart there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's uh like on on one hand, for this author, like, yeah, you don't need to brand this as a quote unquote Christian book. I like what C.S. Lewis said. We don't need more Christian books, we need more books written by Christians on other subjects. And so, like, you're not gonna his point is that you don't need to say this is a you know, this is a Christian physics book or this is a Christian book on, you know, whatever. Uh the I think the bit the deeper question is how are you showing up like as an in the individual? Like I think in terms of our personal brand, um, just to use a business term that a lot of people aren't comfortable with, especially when it relates to our to our faith. I mean, I don't think we really have much choice other than to brand ourselves as Christians. Like, hey, yeah, I'm I'm I'm a Christian, like I'm I belong to the Lord Jesus Christ, and I am not ashamed of the gospel. And but by the way, I offer a um, you know, a manufacturing service, or you know, I sell sunglasses, or I'm not saying you don't have to say I sell Christian sunglasses with a fish on it, or whatever. Like, yeah, you be a Christian, uh, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to put a fish and a cross and on everything else that that you do. But as it relates to to you uh as a as a person, uh but then it's like, well, where is the where is the line drawn between me as an individual and let's say that I I own a company? Um is that a Christian company? And I what are your what are your thoughts on? I know there's some uh debate as to whether that's a a proper use of a lot of people don't like the idea of using Christian as an adjective. Um I get that. Um what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, again, I can see it then um really well both ways. And I I think we need both. Um, because imagine a world, Darren, where every Christian um labels their business as a Christian business. Um, we all know that's going to turn away um a lot and turn off a lot of people um who don't share in that faith. So I think we need people out there who are just doing the work and doing it really well and having those interactions with people who maybe don't share in their beliefs, but they're able to see Jesus and experience um that through those people. And they might not have even walked in the door if it had been labeled in in such an outwardly Christian way. That's not to say that it's wrong to, you know, have a car dealership and have a big, a big fish on the side of the building. Um, but I think we need both. Again, the the root of it, I think the the bigger question to ask ourselves is am I hiding my faith or am I showing up wholeheartedly as an ambassador for Christ in whatever setting I'm in? Whether that's labeling myself as um a Christian, whatever, or working in a church or working in the most secular of workplaces you could imagine, am I showing up um really, again, wholeheartedly as an ambassador for Christ in that setting? So I think that's really the heart of the question because I I think it can be done really well in any environment. You know, no matter who you are, you're you're expected to show up um for God right where He's planted you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So Miranda, you're actively coaching marketplace Christians and you've interviewed many people in the faith and work conversation. Uh, and and you've got this new book, The Word at Work, 10 Biblical Principles for Christian Professionals. Um, I wonder if you could share two or three of the principles from this book that you think are probably the most often overlooked in this conversation about Christian faith at work, and maybe two or three that your that your clients are struggling with the most.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. There are um 10 principles. So try to narrow it down. Um one that is sticking out is the the first one in the book, which is just expect the expected. Um so don't be caught off guard when you face um trials or when you have a colleague or a coworker who doesn't um agree with your beliefs or isn't isn't aligned with you um from a faith perspective. I think sometimes we we let ourselves get caught off guard, like, oh, not everyone is is supporting um my beliefs. And we're not promised that we'll have an easy go at it as Christians. We're promised quite the opposite. So that's the first principle is just um understanding the truth of scripture that we will sometimes be hated for the sake of Jesus, and that um we should expect um persecution, whether it's severe or um more mild, that that we should expect some of those things and not let them make us lose our footing. So that's the first one that I would say.
SPEAKER_01Um What are some examples, some real world examples of things that we are just caught off guard by and just clueless as to why God would allow this to happen to us in the in the workplace?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I think part of it, we we are at an interesting um cultural moment where many of us grew up with Christianity being more mainstream, if that makes sense. Um and I grew up in a really small town where I kind of had the basic assumption that everyone was a was a Christian, quote I'm putting the air quotes up there. Um, whether they were attending um somewhere, whether they were actively walking with God, they would have said, well, yeah, I believe. And it was just kind of a normal part of the culture there. Um, and that's not what most people face in the modern workplace. That's more of a minority worldview these days. Um, so that's that's the root of a lot of challenges, is just, oh, a lot of my coworkers don't get it. I have this um, you know, my faith is really important to me. And a lot of my coworkers don't agree with me. And so that's uncomfortable just to have these big fundamental differences.
SPEAKER_01Do you think that's often more real or imagined?
SPEAKER_00I think it is very real. I think our mind can go all sorts of different places with it. Um, it's very, it's it's obviously very real that we're um most of us will be in workplaces where we are trying to integrate our Christian or biblical worldview into all of these other worldviews that are also coming into the secular workplace. That's very real and that's going to impact how everybody shows up. And sometimes it's not as big of a deal as our mind makes it out to be. We might be assuming that people are making all of these assumptions about us when they might not be. It could just be a simple difference in how you're seeing things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, because I get like, for example, Hobby Lobby, literally one vote decides whether everything that David Green and his family have built is gonna be shuttered um, you know, over the whole um, you know, uh a board of fastens or whatever, however you say the the drugs that they were expect the federal mandate required them to include as part of their health plans. Um so there's there's that. Uh and but for for most of us, this the stakes are I guess not as high. Um when it comes to like what are the things that we're really afraid of in people knowing that we're a Christian? Like you mentioned earlier about well, they might think I'm not as smart or something like that. Uh the engineers might not think that the other Christian engineer is as smart, you know, for for whatever reason. But what what persecution are we actually facing?
SPEAKER_00I think, Darren, that you are your question is making a really powerful point. Um, because often it is something very small where if we take a step back, like, what am I afraid of? I'm afraid they'll think it's silly that I believe this. Well, is that really like is that a big deal or what what's the worst that's really gonna happen? So um I think your question in and of itself is is um an important one for because for a lot of people it might be those little, I'm just worried about what people will think about me. Um for others, there does feel like there's more at stake. Maybe they're afraid they'll lose a client or um lose a deal or a relationship will be damaged to the point that does have business impact. Um, but again, I think that's a really smart question because it highlights that at least for most of us in America, it's not severe um persecution that we're facing. And as humans, a lot of us spend a lot of time um worrying about what people think about us. And so there's that social aspect that can cause um Christians to get in their head and and go into that place of actively hiding their faith in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, do you think it's it it's mostly um sort of a guilt by association? It's like if they know that I'm a Christian, well, I I reference the Hobby Lobby case, you know, decided by one vote in the Supreme Court. Um, if they know I'm a Christian, they automatically assume that I am the one, I am partially responsible for people not being able to have the morning after pill on their health plan if they work for a Hobby Lobby. Even if I work at, you know, XYZ manufacturing over here, um, like I'm just being a Christian, I'm I'm trying to live for God, I'm trying to be respectful to people, I'm trying not to cuss, you know, these kinds of kinds of things. It's it's like, what could they possibly be um concerned about? Like, why would there be such such vitriol? I mean, it would, it would have they would have to somehow like connect us with a more high-stakes issue for them, right?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. That's a good example. Um, another common example that that people face and that I'll hear from folks is I have um LGBTQ co-workers, and I have great working relationships with them. Like we have a great camaraderie. If they find out I'm a Christian, they're gonna assume that I think all of these things about them and it's gonna damage our relationship. So that's that's another example. Um, but I it is a lot of it's the um, well, and let me bring up another thing. Another is the follow up conversations that might need to be had or that they fear will happen um once people know they're a Christian. So if you have a coworker who has very differing um beliefs about um abortion or um, you know, God's designed for sexuality or marriage. And those are all we can look at those and say, well, those are kind of outside work topics. But if these are the people you're sharing a cubicle or an office with, um, these things can come up. And so it's oh, if they find out this, I might have to have a difficult conversation about why I have this belief that I do. And um sometimes people feel ill-prepared for the conversation or just enough dread about the conversation that um that can cause them to actively hide uh their faith as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, because we're on the wrong side of the culture war, you know? Like they see they they they see any kind of trappings of of a Christian life, and they're like, we are on opposite sides of this this civil war that's that's going on, right? I mean, don't you think that's part, even if it's just something very simple, it's like now you are automatically uh connected to everything that they've been watching on CNN or on Fox, or like you are now one of the the the ground troops for whatever that other side's agenda is, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. There's such an opportunity in that though, too, Darren. Um because if people are getting their representation of Jesus from like news sound bites um or you know inaccurate representations of um the faith or of Christians, that's that's not helpful. But if if they can have a coworker who they have a really good camaraderie with, who they know cares about them as a person, who they enjoy working with each day, who they have mutual respect with, if they can have that person um be their representation of Christ, like there's so much opportunity in that. Um, so I think what you're saying, which might uh cause some fear, should also it should more so cause some motivation, some more motivation to be out there and say, well, I'm not gonna let um the news or this cultural narrative represent Jesus to my coworker. I'm gonna represent Jesus to my coworker, and that's what we're called to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really good. I was just thinking about like how Lincoln handled the civil war. I didn't know we were gonna have this culture war discussion here. It's interesting to me. Um, but you know, he establishes uh Lincoln establishes a national day of thanks that we all just celebrated the uh Thanksgiving Day, right in the middle of the Civil War, as an in an effort to unite the the people around at least we can all thank God, right? You know, we can all at least all be grateful to God. But now it's like, no, uh if you're thankful to God, then then you're rejecting me and everything that I stand for. And it's like things are things are very different, you know. To even compare it back to like the civil war, like this is this is very different.
SPEAKER_00It is very different. And, you know, we mentioned and and maybe we sort of made light of like the social um, if the thing stopping us from showing up wholeheartedly as Christians in the workplace is um social pressure, like that can feel like oh, easy to brush off. But if you spend the amount of time that most of us spend in the workplace and you're constantly feeling that tension um with all of the people that you're interacting with, uh that that can really start to wear on you. So another kind of principle I wanted to bring up was around fellowship. Um, because as we're talking about the culture war, a lot of it can feel like an us versus them. We can feel very isolated. We can feel like in some work settings, we can feel like we're the only person that um is thinking the way that we are, that's looking to the Bible as the ultimate authority instead of the self. So we can feel very isolated. And that's why I think one of the principles from the book that's really overlooked is fellowship. Um no matter what line of work you're in, um, you will fare much better if you have a brother or a sister walking alongside you, someone that you can pray with, someone that you can um discuss scripture with, someone that will tell you when you're being a knucklehead and um will hold you accountable to things. Um I it's just it's so important. And I think that it's something that we've lost in a lot of ways. We go to work, we have our work friends, um, but those are different friends than our church friends. And so we don't have those conversations about here's what's going on with you know, for me at work, and can we pray about this together? Can we talk about this? Will you hold me accountable? So that um is a really important thing for us to do, and I think helps to ease um some of that isolation and um social pressure that that can sometimes be felt.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, because there we can have this sort of Elijah complex, you know, where like I'm the only one out here trying to serve God. And uh I've mentioned this on the podcast before. Uh, people probably heard me say this, uh, but Paul had the same kind of complex when he came into Corinth, just looking around at all of the godlessness and wickedness, and and Jesus appears to him and in the red letters uh in Acts says, Don't be afraid, for I have many in this place. And and that was the shift that happened for me as well. When I recognized, you know what, there are other believers in this workplace, um, whether it's a coach um to work with, like you virtually, or believers to connect with in your um in your workplace. I mean, there are peer advisory groups, the Christians are are everywhere. And yeah, like we're not beating the drum as loudly as a lot of the other voices in the uh in the culture, uh, but but we're there. Uh yeah, and when we just have to be willing to say, you know what, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go pursue some other Christian, because there's probably a lot of other Christians, just like that client you mentioned, where yeah, he's afraid to even tell his coach that he's a Christian.
SPEAKER_00Yep. And I I would say that's one thing I would encourage um your listeners, Darren, is anyone out there who feels alone in the workplace, you are probably not as alone as you feel. Um if Christians are not self-identifying um in the workplace, they're not gonna find each other. I'm thinking of a woman who started uh a Bible study in the workplace. Um, she didn't even know that she worked with Christians and people were just coming out of the woodwork um to join this Bible study. And so she's like, wow, I didn't even know I worked with so many Christians. And so it was it was a really big um deal for her and um so powerful for others too, who probably also felt alone. Um, and if you are either an entrepreneur or you truly are working in a workplace where maybe you are the only Christian, um, how can you make that happen for yourself? Um, I'm self-employed right now, I don't work for a company anymore. Um, and so I don't have coworkers here in the office with me. So I've had to be diligent about um, you know, having other Christians that are also entrepreneurs and engaging in fellowship with them. So find out how you can create some sort of um community and and outlet for fellowship, whether that's within your company or just um, you know, friends from church that are in a similar line of work or could at least uh have a few shared experiences with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So for depending on what your your denominational background, theological background is, um a lot of us we have when we hear about the workplace and bringing your faith to the workplace, it's like evangelism, you know, and going and being like to the lost and people that are unbelievers. Uh, I think equally is powerful is go find somebody who's a Christian that is is hiding it, that's afraid to let people know. And it's like, what if we had the same passion for um going and identifying, connecting with those Christians uh in the workplace, in the marketplace, in our communities that we had for the lost. Uh because once that happens, what as the as a tribe gets built, a culture is established, that's what disciples people like it's you know, it's not just getting somebody to pray a prayer salvation and then you know, never really seeing them again. It's actually going and connecting with other believers, like you're talking about, uh, not only for yourself, but for the the entire disciple making engine in your area, it has to there has to be a culture that people uh and I'm not talking about a kind of red state, blue state type culture. I'm I'm talking about kingdom culture and and Jesus Christ centered culture. So what's another um I know we're kind of um running out of time here, but if you would share with us another one of those principles that really you see as being uh missing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm gonna kind of tie two together because there's a connection. Um, one of the principles is around being kingdom-minded, and then there's another chapter that's um it's like don't misplace your, and then there's blank, and it talks about all of the things that we can misplace. And these are both really around our perspective and our identity. Um, something that is very common for all of us in the workplace is that we put so much of our identity, so much of our worth, um, so much of ourselves into what we do professionally. I talk about, you know, what's that small talk question that we ask children? Um we ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? And that so at a very young age, we start to put identity into that. We start to see a whole lot of importance um in what we do professionally. And so that can lead to all sorts of things. One, we can be so immersed in our job that um we don't leave margin for spiritual disciplines like prayer and um being in the word and fellowship. And um two, we we put so much of our identity in our job that when things are going well at work, we're on top of the world and everything is great. But when we have a low point at work, it feels like the end of the world for us and we we lose that kingdom perspective of the larger picture and um what's really important in life and our mission here. I'm not downplaying work, obviously in my line of work. I think your work is important, um, but it's also a lot of it is about how you approach your work and um how your your overall spiritual health as well. So I would say that that one around perspective, um, which ties a couple of those principles together. Because I think it is really easy to lose um perspective when we get really immersed in our careers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well said. Uh Miranda, uh, what's something you're working on right now that you're really excited about? Obviously, the book, uh, we want people to go check that out. The word at work, the podcast is the word at work podcast. Um, what else do you want to say about how people can hear more from you?
SPEAKER_00And yeah, um, so I'm always writing and I do some writing for various outlets. And so if folks want to follow my um my uh email list from my website at mirandacarls.com, um I usually share any of my writing on there. And then another thing I'm really excited about that um relates to our topic around fellowship is I am working on some curriculums, which it ties in my learning and development background for folks to lead little fellowship circles with either coworkers or peer professionals. Um, I really just think that is such an important piece of this that we overlook a lot is that that local connection. You can um, you know, be in the word on your own and in communion with God, but you're also going to fare better if you've got those Christians linking arms with you and walking life with you as well. And um, thinking of that through the context of the place where you spend most of your time at work is really powerful for folks. So that's one thing I'm excited about um working on and getting rolled out in 2023.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Well, people can go to Mirandacarls.com, M-I-R-A-N-D-A-C-A-R-L-S.com to get on your email list and uh read more of your articles. Get the book, subscribe to the podcast, The Word at Work. Uh Miranda, thanks for sharing your time and your wisdom with us today.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Darren. So good to be with you.
SPEAKER_01We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business, and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.