Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the R. W. Dunham College of Business at Houston Christian University. I'm your host, Darren Schear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Larry Griffith. Larry serves as CEO of Corporate Chaplains of America, which provides chaplain care to over 500,000 employees and their families nationwide. After graduating college, he served as an officer in the U.S. Navy. He spent most of his career at a Fortune 250 company, Altel, as the area president South Operations. Actually, in the same town where I uh, I don't know if he went into other towns, but the same town where I graduated high school there in Columbia, South Carolina, uh, it turns out we were we we might have crossed paths for a bit. Um, before coming to Corporate Chaplains of America, he returned to his alma mater and served Geneva College as their EVP and COO. Larry, welcome to the show. Well, it's great to be here, Darren. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So let's say I got hired at one of your clients' companies. How would you explain to me what service is available to me through corporate chaplains of America? Let's say that I'm not a I'm not a Christian or anything like that. What would what would you say to me?
SPEAKER_00Well, companies, you know, offer their employees kind of a suite of benefits. Uh, and we all know uh and appreciate our medical dental vision. You know, there may be other things, but those are those are kind of the table stakes. But if we think about people's hearts and their minds, there isn't necessarily a benefit for that. And and I think over the years, more and more people have broken hearts uh and troubled minds. And so chaplaincy is really a benefit that kind of fits that gap uh and really comes alongside uh the other benefits that companies offer their folks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, can you share a real life story of how a herding employee benefited from uh the service of one of your corporate chaplains?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. You know, we we provide uh just tens of thousands of what we would call care sessions. And uh and those care sessions really range across a spectrum uh of um of common situations that people face, whether it be dealing with parenting or marriage or personal finances, addictions, um uh depression and anxiety. I'd like to kind of share one that um probably crosses a few of those. So there was an employee who was aware of the chaplain, uh really didn't interact much with the chaplain, uh, but was at kind of the end of the rope around midnight. And so they actually called the chaplain, who are every chaplain's available 24-7, 365. Uh you can reach them and said, uh, hey chap, you know, I need your help. Uh my son is in jail. I just was arrested, and I need you tonight uh in the wee hours of the morning to go see him at jail. And the chaplain said, Absolutely, they'll give me the details. He said, Well, let me explain. The reason I need you to see my son is because I had to call the police to have my son arrested. And the chaplain said, Well, I'm so sorry to hear that. You know, I'm sure that was really difficult. You know, could you share some more? He said, Well, absolutely. My my son really has some severe anger management problems. And he was uh like literally thrashing uh his mother, my wife, and I couldn't get him off of her. And so I had to call the police. And so this is kind of the world that we live in, unfortunately. Um, uh there's just so much brokenness in people's lives. So the chaplain went, um, met with the young man uh again in the early, early hours of the morning there at the jail, and they made um arrangements that whenever he was released on bail, that they would meet again. And as they met, uh they really began to build a relationship. And and over time, in that relationship, uh the the and as the chaplain did a lot of listening, and one of the metaphors that our chaplains use is the word wait, or I should say acronym. Uh, and wait stands for why am I talking? And so chaplains are exceptional listeners. And what we've discovered is that most people have no one in their life that would listen to them. We're all so busy talking all the time. So, so really through a lot of listening and over the period of time, this chaplain really built this relationship, and and and ultimately uh the the the this the son of the employee was really looking for help, was looking for ways out, and and really began to ask the chaplain questions, uh, which then enabled the chaplain to kind of share part of their story and how they had their own struggles. Uh, in fact, this chaplain actually had struggled himself with some anger issues in the past, obviously not to that degree, but still very real anger issues, and how really Jesus Christ had set him free from these things and really used his word to speak into his life. And so, so through this relationship over time, the young man kind of gave the chaplain permission to share these things, and uh and ultimately uh he wound up coming to Christ and uh and his life was on a different trajectory, and that's that's the most amazing thing that could happen, but but even kind of a blessed PS on the story is the young man really uh began to seek out his mother and father, and the chaplain kind of did family care for all three of them to really help them restore and rebuild the relationships which have been so fractured over so many painful things over so many years. So, just an example of the way chaplain see intersects real people uh in real lives in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01Wow. You would think here in a story like that, uh, that a company owner, ex decision maker in a company, uh HR director would say, we've got to have this program in our company, but that's I'm sure not always the case. Um, there's there's other metrics and things that you probably share with them. How do you how do you measure and communicate the impact being made by the corporate chaplains on um, you know, sort of a numerical type level?
SPEAKER_00You know, Darren, on on the face of that, it just seems like it's it's a it's a problem because all the care we provide is confidential. So unless an employee or their family member, in this case of the story I'm just told, is going to hurt themselves or hurt someone else, like it's all confidential. And and we don't tell anyone. So most of what we do is in that genre. But with every business that we serve, and actually we serve, you know, over 900 approaching a thousand uh businesses across North America as we speak, we provide them a monthly activity report that kind of shows, you know, how many times did the chaplain uh connect with their employees over the course of the month? And then how many times do they provide care sessions? And so an example of meeting with that uh uh that son of that employee would be a care session, and there would be multiple care sessions. And then for our owners, most of which are highly evangelical, a few are not. Uh, but for those uh who are, we also share how many times did we share the gospel? And how many times did somebody receive Christ for the first time or or recommit their lives to Christ? And so we break that out separately back into the area of care sessions. We kind of provide uh the details of what kind of care sessions are we providing? Are we are we talking about dealing with aging parents? Are we talking about uh drug addiction? Are we talking about abuse? Like what are the things that are actually happening? And that in some ways allows the business owner or the HR leader to have their finger on the pulse of like what's going on in their business, because like work-related care sessions happen as well when sometimes some sometimes frontline supervisors struggle to lead well. And uh, and so we can kind of help them get a sense of what's happening within their company culture. Yeah. What is the range and size of companies that you serve? Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So, really, there's no company that's too large or small. So I would say we serve anywhere from about 12 employees to currently the largest is 17,000, but we're talking to companies uh that would have uh tens of thousands of employees as we speak, as we just try to fit uh care for them. And you know, Darren, an interesting thing, and this is we would be one of the barriers perhaps as to why people don't have chaplain C is is that we pay our chaplains aren't volunteers. So they all uh they're they're largely full-time and we pay them salary and benefits. So companies pay us so that then we can pay the chaplains, but we've really worked hard over the past few years to not let that uh remuneration for chaplain C services be a barrier. And so we just try to get creative and based on what folks can afford in their budget, because people need care for their hearts and minds. And I think if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's just that things are getting progressively worse in our culture. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And some of the most the the biggest companies with, I mean, very high performing, high pressure type type tech job and so forth, they have like psychologists in-house to help just address the the personal issues that people are facing, even just from a performance standpoint that are that's affecting their performance. Because whatever's happening at home, it is going to affect you at work. So is it is it like the role of a counselor? Like what does that typical care session sound like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so our chaplains are really special people. Uh, so and and and we were super selective. So uh rather than applicants, uh internally we call them chaplicants. So we go through 38 chaplicants to hire one chaplain, and we're looking for folks that um that our seminary trained, that really uh that come with a great uh background uh uh that in in care, uh, but at the same time have worked uh seven or more years uh in the workplace. So somebody that's had a supervisor, somebody's had a performance review, somebody that's had uh accountability and real world objectives in that kind of an environment, understand what it's like to work on a team uh and have to produce something, have to serve a customer. Because we really find that's vital for them to be able to relate uh to the employees in this company.
SPEAKER_01Is it hard to find that among pastors? Because I would imagine a lot of, as you said, a lot of seminary trained pastor types. I mean, is it is it rare to find pastors that have actual workplace experience?
SPEAKER_00So it again, I think that's part of what you know we go through so many, you know, chaplaitans to get to a chaplain. That's one of the reasons. There's other reasons as well, uh, because we're we're looking for kind of a not quite a unicorn, we're probably closer to a unicorn than a horse. Like we're looking for kind of a rare breed. But but we really find that, you know, God is so faithful and that we find folks and that so many people um are, you know, they go uh to seminary or they feel called into ministry even later in life after they've had a career. And um, so so sometimes those are the folks that really make up uh our chaplain core. And uh and it's interesting just how uh there's real diversity in our chaplains as far as male and female, uh, as far as people from different races, as far as even different ages. And so it's kind of interesting how God calls people together and how you have a chaplain who's in their in their early 30s, but they have that workplace experience that we're looking for, but they also have the training that we're looking for. As far as the care session, so they they they bring uh something to the table from the resume. But right off the bat, we have this initial chaplain training uh that is led by uh a former West Point grad who works for us, uh, who has just really buttoned up, served as a chaplain himself uh for uh more than a decade, uh, and just really um provides world-class training. Uh, we also have an LMS uh for ongoing training. And then we have training events uh that, in fact, we're gonna have one very next week where we bring all our chaplains together, and we really cover a lot of just the difficulties of providing care in today's world, the problems people are bringing to the table. So we believe we have to be continuous learners. Uh, one of our core values is improving. And so we always have to be improving, kind of sharpening our saw. At the same time, a chaplain is well aware of their community. So there's times when you kind of need to bring in other resources. So they're very connected to kind of clinical and counseling resources outside of themselves where they can kind of pull together a team to come alongside someone as an example of somebody we're dealing with an eating disorder. And so we don't take any of these things uh lightly. In fact, our care sessions would include uh about a thousand or more care sessions per year around suicide and suicide ideation. So you have to really be thoughtful. You certainly have to be equipped personally as a chaplain, but then you also need to know like when it's time to bring in other subject matter experts to kind of help you in the community.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm sure there are exceptions, but are the your client companies, are they almost entirely Christian-led companies?
SPEAKER_00Uh they they're largely, uh I think there's an increasing number of companies where uh the the owner or the CEO themselves may not be a Christian, but there's someone in the organization. Maybe it's the chief HR officer, maybe it's the CFO, maybe it's uh like a COO or VP of ops who is, and and really what they want us to do is they see that number one, their people are broken. Like it's just obvious because our culture is broken. And uh they know that Peter Drucker said that strat that straight that culture eats strategy for breakfast. They're trying to solve the riddle of how do you create a great culture when your people are broken? Because your culture is really the composition of what you can get your people to kind of live and breathe. And if your people are bringing their whole selves to work and there's just a lot of baggage and problems from their in their personal lives, how do you create a resilient culture? And so uh I think an increasingly number of companies they want us to serve for that reason. And that's why what we do is, you know, well, while we're all committed Christ followers, we just provide care for people as they allow us to. In fact, uh, Darren, there's uh I think of a company in Michigan and another company in South Carolina that we serve. The company in Michigan has a large number of Muslim employees. The company in South Carolina has a large number of Buddhist employees. And in both of those scenarios, the employees like love the chaplain. Now, now we're not universalists by any stretch of the imagination. You know, we believe, you know, John 14, 6, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, but we also believe that we believe in the Imago day, that people are all created in the image of God. So we love everyone, we provide them respect that that is due to them just by being living human beings. And that what we found is we care for them and we we never share anything about faith without their permission. Now we actively seek it, uh, but if they don't share it, we just we just meet them where they are and we trust God uh with that permission, which He does time and time again. Uh, but I think that people see that a chaplain is a safe person, a safe place, regardless of their views, their ideologies, even their identities, that they can just embrace with the chaplain and provide a listening ear that can care for them that really is extremely rare to find in today's day and age.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And as you know from your experience in the military, and and I know from my experience, not as a chaplain, but being in the military, that government likes to try to cover all their bases. And there's the Christian chaplain with the cross, and then they've got you know the Muslim chaplain, the Wiccan chaplain. If if you've come from any sort of religious uh persuasion, regardless of what it is, they will find somebody with that, you know, that um identifier on their uniform that can serve you according to the worldview that you uh that that you have. Do you do are do you have a responsibility to like accommodate like religious accommodation so forth when it comes to like Muslims who want a certain I I don't really know have you run into any of that?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, Darren, it it's interesting. Uh so all of our chaplains uh are committed uh Christ followers and we all have a biblical Christian worldview. But it's interesting though when you really step back and you read the Bible at face value, uh Jesus had a derisive term that was given to him by his enemies. He was called a friend of sinners. And it wasn't a compliment. Now we view it as a compliment, right? You know, as we think about it, but it was at the time it was not a compliment. And so, really, kind of kind of our belief that all of humanity, you know, you and me and everyone listening to this podcast, every one of us is a sinner and that we're all lost. And that's kind of the starting point, and that God loves us so much, right where we are. And so, and so we can befriend uh the modern day Zacchaeus or the modern day Samaritan woman at the well, like regardless. And the truth is we're all in the same place. And those that maybe are religious or uh think of themselves uh as a good quote unquote Christian person, uh, the truth is we if God kept a record wrong, none of us could stand. So I think that's kind of this level playing ground that chaplain interacts with all people. Now, if there's somebody that you're serving that, let's say is really committed to another faith, I think what we've found is that most people are like most Christians, they're really not committed to the Christian faith, or they're not really committed to whatever faith they aspire to. Maybe they go uh like a Christian that goes on Christmas or something, but it's largely uh more tied to ethnicity than it's tied to a true living faith. But but we have connections, and if we can't uh if we can't uh uh perform care for them of spiritual nature, then we will connect them to a local mosque or or or local temple of whatever faith they they belong in, uh and if they need a funeral or care in that regard. But it's interesting, there's so many times, in fact, going back to South Carolina where there was an employee uh who uh passed away, uh, and the widow uh was like asked that that Christian chaplain, uh, even though she was Buddhist, like, please do the funeral, because I know you were a close friend to my husband. And we really don't know the Buddhist priest, quite frankly. Like, I can't remember the last time we've been to the temple. So, so I think that just being the friend of people, like where they are and pouring into their lives. And and again, I love, I love John 3.16, which we all know, but that very next verse, that God didn't send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him could find life. And I think that's really the mission of the chaplains, is just trying to reach out to people to share that good news that that God loves them, that God is for them, that God wants them to have life, which is why Jesus came to earth and to only talk about spiritual things as the employee gives us uh the ability to do so. And if the employee wants to engage with the chaplain and not talk about Christianity or God or the Bible, we don't. And I think that just creates a very safe space for those interactions of people of no faith or any faith. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, how would you compare the impact in terms of leading people to the Lord from what you're experiencing actually in companies and what the typical church experiences on Sunday mornings throughout the year? Because generally we think to lead somebody to the Lord, I need to invite them to my church. Right. Um but you're seeing a lot of people coming to the Lord right there in the workplace. Like what what is the impact being made there?
SPEAKER_00So it's interesting. I um was born or raised in Western Pennsylvania in an area that was largely non-evangelical. And my parents, neither one of them knew Christ. I want to get to your, I'm gonna get to that question, but let me take the wrong, the long way, the long way around. But in 1956, uh a couple continued to kind of, my parents would say, 'badgered them to go to church.' And so they went to church and they heard the professional gunslinger share the gospel and ultimately led them both to Christ at the same time in their living room after they heard a Sunday evening service. Can you believe non-believers going to a Sunday evening service? But that was life in 1956. Well, today uh there's an increasing number of people that even self-identify as Christians that just don't even go to church themselves, uh, let alone uh people that are that would say they're not Christians. And so I we love the church, we're pro church, we're all active in our local churches. Uh, but I think what we found is that uh really the model, and when you look at the New Testament, the book of Acts, really kind of going to people where they are, uh We kind of love the passage where Paul uh goes to Marsial uh in Athens and ultimately kind of to talks to them in language that they understand and kind of ultimately shares the gospel, kind of using the foil of you know the idol of the unknown God, and quotes their poets and their philosophers and their and kind of their religion and uh and kind of relates to them in that way. So I think that's really kind of what we're doing. We love the church and we love that God's using it in a powerful way. And he will, like church is is is his is his plan A. But what we are is we're kind of more like um, again, we're kind of going into companies, building these caring relationships with people and hoping that they're going to give us permission to share the gospel. If they don't, that's fine. But when they do, then we kind of share the gospel with them on their terms, at their speed, at their time. And we find there's so many people that would never imagine themselves going to a church, uh, wind up wanting to hear about God. They're they're curious, they want to hear about spiritual things, and they don't really never understood it. And once they do and they knew that God is for them and they understand what Christ offered to them, uh, then they they receive it and their lives are changed for eternity.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's awesome. And how so how many conversions like over the course of a year? Because you're you're actually tracking this, right? We are.
SPEAKER_00So we're seeing this year over 11,000 lives uh changed uh by the by the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Uh and it's really our vision that in the next five years that we're seeing more than 100,000 lives changed. And uh, how many companies and so uh so uh over 900 companies, and again, some of those companies are small uh and some of them are larger. Uh you know, Billy Graham did say uh towards the end of his life that he believed the next great move of God uh was going to be in the workplace, and we believe that we're among the those that are kind of fulfilling what was on Billy Graham's heart from the Lord and just seeing some amazing things that we just think are the tip of the iceberg. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that was that's been the challenge for Billy Graham and and evangelists, you know, going in and doing the the big uh crusades and getting a lot of people, seeing a lot of people come down and and give their heart to the Lord, but then how do you know what happens with them after that? Um, and I I've I've been one of those altar workers and you know, trying to follow up with people, and it's just it's like I didn't know them before, and it's and now we just kind of lose touch. But that chaplain prays with somebody and they make a commitment, that chaplain now has an opportunity to really follow up and kind of see how they're doing, right?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely every week. So it's kind of a built-in discipleship. And again, you know, step one when somebody comes to Christ is really getting them in a local, strong, you know, Bible-believing church. And so, so again, we're we're pro-church, we're not parachurch. So we're wanting people to get involved in that local church. There's no substitute for that, but that chaplain can follow up with them and even say, Hey, how was how was church Sunday? Like, hey, tell me what God's been showing you, you know, tell them, you know, you know, and in in typically somebody comes to Christ, you take them to a place like the book of John, you kind of follow up and say, Well, what'd you read this week? Let's talk about it. And so there's a level of of relationship, even accountability uh on an individual uh level that we really see kind of bear fruit and kind of help people grow. Uh, and then it's kind of cool to hear their stories when they're in the local church and they're serving other believers and they're really active uh in in that local body. And and and that's exciting to see. And then God's beginning to kind of multiply their ministry and use them in in different ways. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's it's very common to have to, you know, reach out to somebody and say, hey, I noticed you hadn't been coming to church lately, you know, where you've been, but not so much with the workplace, right? I mean, uh, like if you if you call them, you're like, hey, I noticed you hadn't been coming into work for a while, like that that's probably less common, right? If they want their job, if they want to be able to put food on the table. And so it's like you said, it's kind of a built-in system for um the the follow-up. You know, I've been going through Paul's letters and just noticing how Paul was always trying to follow up and giving feedback on how the people were doing. And without that, without being present in people's lives, how can you, you know, how can you make disciples unless you're with them day in, day out, right?
SPEAKER_00And and I think that our culture is becoming increasingly devoid of relationships, you know, as as people uh live in the made the meta universe and they they have their everything is virtual. Uh, but I think a chaplain is like a real, a real live person that I'm gonna see week after week, and they're gonna look me in the eye uh and they're gonna listen. And um, you know, one of the acronyms that we use is why am I talking? And so a chaplain really doing a lot of listening uh actively, intentively, and really caring. And um uh you kind of see a kind of a chaplain moment uh after Jesus has risen from the dead on the road to Olmaeus. And uh there the followers are and they're they're scared and and they're frightened and they're angry and frustrated and worried and a range of emotions after what happened to Jesus. And of course, it's Jesus himself, like he was the one that was betrayed and beaten and crucified and carried all of our sins uh and died and rose from the dead. But he is asking them what things, because they're he, of course, he knew, but they had to kind of get things out. And and and and that's really what a chaplain does, kind of similar to that, uh, before people can see the answer, the way that they could see the risen Christ when their eyes were open. People have to get out these things that are inside of them. And that happens at a slow drip, Darren. I think week after week. And that, and I I think I mentioned to you offline that our chaplain turnover is like exceptionally low. So these chaplains are around for years and it provides a level of stability that's really kind of the secret sauce of us being able for people, and that you know, you're walking alongside people, you know, when they get married, or when they have a birth of a child, or when they're bearing a parent, and like you just you've done life with these people over the long haul, and you've really earned the right to speak into their lives because you're a trusted friend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's beautiful. I just absolutely love the ministry. Um, love the whole just the model of being just getting that access into these companies to where you're actually expected to ask them the hard questions of what's really going on. And because just in being a typical coworker of somebody where it's so easy to just stay in performance mode and task mode and what's what's the objective here and not actually uh take the time to ask people how they're really doing. And and as you said, wait. Um, why am I talking? You know, wait for them to really respond and tell you what's what's going on. It's beautiful. Um, chaplin.org is the website. Anything else you want to say about how people can um learn more?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, chaplin.org is is a great place to go. There's actually a link if you're interested. And uh we uh uh we have a great fill development team. And again, I think we would never want cost to be a barrier uh to entry. So we would just love to kind of customize a solution that would work for you to provide care for your people. Um you know what can I can I double back, Darren, just share one more story? Yeah, please do. So earlier you asked the question about different religions and the way that things are like in the military. What we're seeing is there's an increasing number of people that are in that category called the nuns. I'm not talking about people that wear a habit uh or that that are professing Catholicism, but people have no faith. Like they're just nothing. And um uh and I think with our our chaplains, uh again, as they build caring relationships and they walk alongside, and that employs in total control of what's discussed and what's not discussed, it's really kind of created a fertile ground again because people are so uh barren of any real relationships and friendships, the chaplain becomes a trusted friend. So one of the things that we often say at corporate chaplains of America is that individuals are either in a crisis, you're about to go into a crisis, or you've just left a crisis. And so uh a story uh of a true story that happened where there was an employee uh who was somewhere between agnostic and atheist, had no desire to talk about anything spiritual whatsoever, but had a lot of issues in his life and and and really had built a great relationship with the chaplain over five years. And like they really enjoyed seeing each other every week, and the employee really loved just just just kind of getting care and coaching from the chaplain. Uh, but they and they never went anything remotely spiritual because the employee was in control and just said it was off limits. Well, unfortunately, after after this five-year relationship, it was really a deep, it was a wonderful relationship, and the chaplain helped him quite a bit on many, many fronts. Uh, well, the employee uh wound up getting the diagnosis that nobody wants. It was a cancer diagnosis, and unfortunately was caught late because he really wasn't doing the preventative care that he should have. He thought he was healthy, and it was already stage four. So suddenly the employee wanted to talk about some spiritual things because he knew for five years that the chaplain was a Christian, but the chaplain earned that right because he respected the person. And he provided real care and a strong friendship, a beautiful relationship for five years and uh never getting ahead of that employee. And so they began to talk and and and he began to share, you know, really the truth of the good news of Jesus and how Jesus loved him and and cared for him. And uh and and that really uh uh death was something that we did not need to fear because of what Jesus had done. And so that employee uh before he came to Christ and then he passed. And uh and the widow said uh to the chaplain, hey, could you could you do the funeral? Because they had no connection to anything spiritual, like the whole family was was agnostic and atheist, somewhere in between. And so he did. And and and though, and the widow expressly said, I want you to tell my husband's story. I want you to tell about your five-year relationship, but I want you to tell what happened to him at the end because we saw a change in his life. And so he told the story, and at that funeral, more than three dozen people came to Christ. So if that chaplain had not been patient for five years and just allowed that employee to be in total control, but still seeing value in them, that it's not just the objective, isn't just let's go share the gospel, but the objective is let's care for people because they're created in the image of God. Even if they don't believe in God, God believes in them. And so does a chaplain. And so it's really kind of a beautiful thing that we see happening uh in the workplace all across America.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Wow, what a beautiful story. And I think that really highlights the the role of um of a corporate chaplain. So everybody check out chaplain.org. Larry, thank you so much for your ministry and um thanks for sharing with our listeners today.
SPEAKER_00Uh, we're we're all better for it. Well, thank you, Darren. Appreciate you and appreciate everyone that's listening as his interest to integrate their faith and their work. That's uh that's a significant calling.
SPEAKER_01We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you'd leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and Business Podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HCU's Center for Christianity and Business, and sign up to receive free access to all issues of the Christian Business Review Journal by visiting our website at Christianityandbusiness.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.