Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunn College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Dr. Mark Roberts. Mark is a senior strategist for Fuller's Max Depree Center for Leadership, where he focuses on the spiritual development and thriving of leaders. And if you're not familiar, the Depree Center is named for Max Depree, who was the founder of the Herman Miller Office Furniture Company, probably the biggest of its kind. He's the principal writer of the daily devotional Life for Leaders, and the founder of the Dupree Center's Flourishing and the Third Third of Life initiative. Previously, he was executive director of the Depree Center, the lead pastor of a church in Southern California, and the senior director of Laity Lodge in Texas. And um, and that was actually founded by um uh one of the descendants of HEB, right? Howard E. Jr. Exactly who was uh, and if you're from Texas, you know you've been in H E B, you're you've probably been in H E B today, probably the greatest grocery store I have ever. I mean, we don't live in Texas anymore, but one of the things I miss most about uh Texas was um was that HEB. And so they had some really godly uh founders and um and and descendants of that of that founder that started a lot of really great ministries, like the Lady Lodge in in Texas. And Mark has written eight books, dozens of articles, and over 2,500 devotionals that help people discover the difference God makes in their daily life and leadership. He's got a PhD in New Testament from Harvard. He teaches at Fuller Seminary, uh, most recently in his uh Doctor of Ministry cohort on faith, work, economics, and vocation. He's married to Linda, a marriage counselor and family counselor. I should say Linda is all of these things I'm about to say. Is not married to all of these different people, I guess, in a way. Um a marriage and family counselor, spiritual director, and executive coach. And their two grown children are educators on the high school and college level. Mark, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Darren. Love being with you today.
SPEAKER_02When did you first realize God wanted to be involved in the marketplace?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, uh unfortunately, I think like many Christians, I grew up without thinking about that very much. You know, there was sort of like your Christian life is about your family and your personal life, your personal ethics. It's going to church, it's sharing your faith with people. And those are all good things. But and then there's sort of you go to work, and and work is this thing apart from faith. Now, I don't know that anybody ever really said that, but I just sort of intuited it. And you know, in the church I grew up in, if anybody had a call to the ministry, we'd celebrate. That was a big deal. If anybody, you know, went into business, we didn't we didn't celebrate. It's like, oh, well, other than maybe they'll make enough money to support us. So I don't mean to be cynical, but it was just the assumption. And so when I first got into ministry, I worked in youth ministry and I worked in college ministry. And when you do youth and college ministry, you got to be where the people are, you got to get into their lives. Well, all of a sudden in 1991, I found myself a senior pastor of a church down in Irvine, California, Orange County, California. And I mean, I just sort of thought, well, pastoring is kind of like youth ministry. I got to get to know people, I got to be in their lives, I've got to find out what's going on with them. So I just started meeting with people in my church. Well, I had tons of business people. And it became really clear to me early on in my pastorate that this is something I really need to care about. Now, I need to say also, I learned so much about all of this from my business people. Like I remember I give you a couple examples. Um, so I had the guy in my church who literally was in charge of Lexus. That was his job. Uh Dave Illingworth, great Christian me. And but I met with him for the first time, and you know, we're talking, and I remember asking, well, does your faith have anything to do with your work? And he just starts going on and on, telling me about every day how he prays, and he prays for his distributors and his his uh dealers. And I'm like, huh, this guy really thinks everything about his work God cares about. This is amazing. And another couple, John and Jennifer, they're the more the entrepreneurial type, literally started the business in their garage. Now they got 400 employees, and they prayed about everything. And I thought, this is interesting. You know, these people think of every part of their life as part of their discipleship, as something God cares about. And I learned from them. Of course, then I went to scripture, and you know, scripture actually backed that up. It's like, wow, there's this whole piece of Christian life that I just hadn't done much thinking about. So I started learning about it, listening to people, finding out how I could be their pastor. And if they're going to be spending so much of their time in the business context, then I, as their pastor, need to help them do that as disciples of Jesus and care about them and pray for them. So that was kind of where I got into it when I really, in my first years as a senior pastor.
SPEAKER_02So if if one of them was to come up to you, uh, or if somebody was to come up to you today, Mark, and ask you, what does it take to please God in business? How would you respond to that?
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I'd say, you know, that's a great question. I'm glad you're asking that question. Because in a kind of a secular business mindset, you know, the main main concern, and I realize that's not true for everybody, but the main concern is profitability, you know, or or you know, shareholder value. I mean, the bottom line. And I'm I'm not suggesting that's unimportant, but sometimes we haven't asked questions like, how can I glorify God in this part? What would give God pleasure? And so the first thing I'd say if somebody asked that question is like, man, I'm really glad you're asking that question. And partly, I mean, this seems like an easy answer, but partly that's almost the answer. Like, if you're seeking to glorify God in your business, that in itself is glorifying God right there. And if you keep asking that question and working on that, you're going to discover so much more of what that means as you go. And so then you'll discover that, well, one way I can glorify God in my business is you know, to pay and treat my people well, if I have employees. You know, scripture is pretty clear that God cares about that sort of thing. So that's one way to glorify God. And I can glorify God in the way I I talk in public, whatever it is. But it's really so if you're asking that question, then that is the great beginning. And that, as I said, that in itself glorifies God. God knows you're you're seeking to glorify me in your business, then I'm glorified in that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well said. Well, what's your favorite Bible verse or passage related to business and entrepreneurship? Because I'm I'm sure I once you realized, you know, like your conversation with the head of Lexus and and other business people in your church, you they were, I'm sure, leaning on you to share with us from the the treasure trove of the scripture. Uh what is it, what does the scripture mean for us in business? What's one of your favorite uh verses or passages?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a tough question, because there are a lot of and and for some that's even a surprise that there's so much in scripture that's relevant to business and work and leadership. But I I would say that a passage I go back to again and again and again is in uh Paul's letter to the Colossians, chapter three, and there's this amazing passage about how we're to live as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved. And it has different things, but it ends up in Colossians 3:17, and it says, Whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father. And that do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus. Now, we need to understand what that means. That doesn't mean you have to say the name of Jesus all the time. You know, a lot of us when you pray, and I when I pray often pray in Jesus' name, that's a great thing to do. But that's not actually what that means. What to do something in the name of someone in the ancient world was number one, to do something under that person's authority. So if you were part of Caesar's army, you did you served in the name of Caesar, that is under Caesar's authority, but also doing something in the name of somebody is for that person's interest, for that person's goal. So you think of an ambassador of a country is serving in the name of the country, not for their own interest, but for the interest of the country. So to do something in the name of, under the the authority of, for the purpose of. And so that verse says, whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything. No, sir, it's even that redundancy. Whatever you do, word or deed, do everything. That's actually in the original language. It's like Paul really wants us to get it. Do every single thing you do, do it in the name of the Lord Jesus. Do it under his authority and for his purposes. And that I think anchors all of our life, right? It anchors what we do as a spouse or a parent or a friend or a neighbor or a citizen, but it absolutely informs what we are to do in our work and business. Uh, and and then of course it raises the big question well, what does it mean for me to do this in the name of Jesus, this in the name of Jesus? But again, if you're asking that question, you're asking the right question. So that's what I'd go. I'd go with Colossians 3:17.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that. And then just a couple of verses later, you know, Paul is making the the point that it Jesus is the one that has your reward. Your reward is from is from the Lord, it's not from men. So why would you why would you think about it in terms of I'm working for my boss? Like I don't even I don't even like the idea of is that we've got a couple of employees, and I encourage them, don't say that you work for our that our company, hybrid books, or certainly don't say you work for Darren, uh, but say you work for the Lord. You you work with Darren, you work with high bridge books, but but don't tell them that you work for high bridge books because you work for the Lord. And we just happen to have uh you know a couple of godly employees that they get it, you know. I understand that that'd be kind of an awkward conversation with you know unbelievers. Um, it really wouldn't even apply because if you're not uh born again, it probably you know doesn't really make sense. Um but I don't know. What are your what are your thoughts on that? I mean, because the Lord really has to, we have to view him as being on the receiving end of everything we do in business. I mean, that's really the foundation for for it all.
SPEAKER_01You know, it I mean, I think what you just said is it's a biblical way of understanding how we're to live our whole lives. Again, that's doing everything under the authority of of Jesus and and for his purposes. When you when you start thinking that way and living that way, it it really can be transformational. For one thing, just think how you uh how you feel about your work. I mean, most of us, you know, even if we love our work, there's stuff we don't love. And and some of us are doing jobs where it's it's hard to, you know, maybe hard to get joy in the work. But you think of what um if what I'm doing in my work is honoring to God, that can give meaning and joy. In fact, I have an amazing example. So you mentioned I was at Lady Lodge in Texas, that's this incredible retreat center in the hill country of Texas, and I was the director there for several years. Um, and of course, we had a hospitality crew, the people cleaned all the rooms and everything. And one one woman, Michelle, um, she would always clean the place that I'd stay. And it was amazing, it was immaculate. And I know it wasn't just because I was the boss. I mean, all the rooms and the bathroom, I'd come in, it's like this thing is so clean. So one time I asked her, I said, You've been doing this for years. You've you probably clean bathrooms thousands of times after like what keeps you going? How can you keep doing this? She said, Oh, that's easy. Really? That's what you said. Oh, that's easy. I said, Well, what? Well, she said, first of all, I think about the person who comes to stay in this room, how much it's going to matter to them that it's really clean. Well, that's cool. And she said, the other thing is, I think I'm cleaning this bathroom for God. Wow. So this, you know, relatively humble and hard work she was doing with excellence and joy because she saw that as a way to love basically to love God and people, right? It's it's the great commandment: love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. And here, through her work in this humble work, she was able to um serve others and serve God and and and feel joy. The thing I loved about that conversation too is that she was so quick her answer. It wasn't like she had to think of it. It's like, oh, this is how I this is how I do my work, you know? Yeah. And that can be transformational. I don't care what our work is. You know, we're cleaning bathrooms, we're running a big company, we're entrepreneurial, we're trying to sell something, we're marketing, whatever it is. Uh, if if we think of in terms of uh our our work as service to others and our work as a way of serving and loving God, that's really transformation.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, in light of Colossians 3.17, Colossians 3.23, Jesus is on the receiving end of everything that we do in business. So whether you're relating to a customer or to a supervisor or shareholder, fellow board member, Jesus is on the receiving end. Like if I mean, I would even think about like with tax with your taxes, you know, uh, if that that IRS agent, consider that that person ref reviewing your taxes is Jesus. Um you know, consider that that anyone that you interact with, and there's really no limit. Your vendors, the way you treat your suppliers, that's Jesus. I mean, if you've if you've done it to the and you're a New Testament scholar, tell me if I'm kind of over applying this um this passage where Jesus says, if you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me. If you haven't done it to the least of these, you haven't done it to me. Uh, you know, I I think he's talking about the poor, but I mean, there's there's the up and out, there's the down and out. There's uh, I mean, if the if you haven't given that pay raise to that employee, you haven't given it to Jesus. If you've given that pay raise to that employee, you've given it to Jesus. You know, that just is that the way is that a biblical way of thinking about it?
SPEAKER_01I think that's a you know, that's a fine um application of that text. And you know, you can go all the way back to the very beginning to creation. I mean, God created human beings in God's own image. Every human being reflects the image of God, and there is a fundamental basis for human dignity, for treating every human with respect and care. Uh and and you you find similar things throughout the scripture of where God obviously cares uh about the greatest and the least. You know, it's it's like the the Sabbath commandment in the Ten Commandments. It's like, yeah, you're supposed to rest. Oh, yeah, and also all your slaves, you know, and you think so so this fundamental valuing of somebody and and seeing somebody as Jesus and offering to somebody something as if to Jesus, again, I mean, that's gonna that's gonna give delight to the Lord.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because you know, we've been you've been in the faith and work movement now for a while, and it's it seems like such a uh primary focus of the movement has been to close this sacred sacred secular divide. And and so it it just seems to me that okay, I might get that God is watching what I'm doing in business and that he cares about what I'm doing in business, but still, and even just like the the idea that God is my CEO. So I answer, I answer to God because He's He's above me, but He's also He's also in a sense, if if you if you think about you know the the the chain of command in your company, he's kind of beneath you as well, in standing in the place of that employee. Not that obviously God is not beneath us, but He is like the passage says, if you've done it to them, you've done it to me. And and so I think if we can open our eyes and look at all of the relationships and interactions that happen through a business and see Jesus on the receiving end of that, uh it I think that passage begins to make more to make more sense. Um he's not just your CEO, he's your employee, he's your board member, he's the person you're thinking about suing. You know, he's he's everywhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sure is a uh perspective changer, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is. Well Mark, what would you say uh, because you're you're blogging regularly on on these topics. Um, what's missing from most conversations about Christianity and business nowadays?
SPEAKER_01You know, one of the things that's missing is something that I find really fascinating and really important and relevant. And it has to do with Jesus. You know, we tend to understand traditionally that Jesus was a carpenter. Scholars would say now that the word translated as carpenter could have a little broader meaning, could have been a stonemason, but anyway, he worked with his hands and materials and made things. And that's that's all true, and that's good. But what we've tended not to think about is that it's highly likely that he was actually a carpenter in the family business, initially working for his father, who was also a carpenter, but it's likely that Joseph died. And so then he took the family business. So he wasn't just a carpenter, he was also a small business owner. Now, you think about that for a minute, you think, whoa, I mean, he was dealing with customers, certainly sometimes cranky customers, people who didn't pay their bills, supply chain issues. He was having the joy of making things and building. I mean, the guy was running a family business. Now, I just think, and so number one, I just think that's amazing. Because if you're running a business, Jesus really gets a lot of that stuff. That's pretty amazing. But the other thing that's worth saying is, you know, for those of us who are Christian, we believe that Jesus is, you know, God's own son, the word of God incarnate. And so God came and spent a little over 30 years on this earth, uh, more or less. 33 is the traditional number. And for the last three, Jesus, God in human flesh, did this very specific messianic thing and then ultimately died on the cross. And that was uh uh, you know, sort of the chief purpose of his entire life. However, from about age 12 to about age 30, he was working in the family business, first as an apprentice and then as the guy in charge. So for about 18 years, the majority of his adult life, Jesus, the Son of God, was a business guy. Now, I just think number one, that's amazing. Number two, it says something about what God cares about. In other words, God on this earth didn't think it was unimportant to do business. And that's just such a fundamental valuing of business and work. And so I think for folks who are you know doing that with their lives. Which is a lot of people, whether you're a carpenter or whatever kind of business you're in or you're working for somebody, to know that when God was here on earth, that's a lot of what God did. That says it's really important, it says it really matters. And I think it can be a great encouragement to people. And then of course, you you ask the question well, what kind of business person would Jesus have been? You know, and it it's pretty easy to fill in some of that. You assume he's gonna be pretty honest, he's gonna, et cetera, et cetera. And you begin to build your life in imitation of Christ in in your functioning, in your business, uh, when you think about Jesus really was like me.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Yeah, I mean, he wasn't um I'm not gonna say only, he wasn't uh solely a a craftsman, but yeah, he was uh a business owner, a manager. And um, and I, you know, it's easy to to think about, okay, well, why wasn't all of this recorded in the scriptures, you know, his business dealings and you know, kind of the pre, as you say, the the met doing his messianic thing like that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I mean, just because he didn't have somebody uh have all the fanfare like he did once he kind of hit the scene at at 30, um, doesn't mean, like you say, that this wasn't incredibly valuable and important to his father, who was just right there watching every moment. And, you know, it just kind of makes me think about just that father-son relationship, um, and how it was, you know, Jesus just had an audience of one. And it's like, yeah, he wasn't in the way that he was doing his his craftsmanship, running his business. I mean, he didn't care that the whole world wasn't watching, you know, like he was he was just doing it for his father. And um, and and that just because it didn't make the news, just because it didn't, you know, even make the scriptures, doesn't mean that that wasn't even really a you know a chief purpose or or a major purpose for God bringing he wanted to get glory from his son, right? And I'm sure so much of that came from just seeing his son serving, going from you know, house to house and helping businesses with building whatever kind of tables and chairs and things like that that they they needed. There was one if if you saw the series The Chosen, um, the scene where he's actually building this really sophisticated wooden lock. Um I love that. Um, but who knows what he would have been building?
SPEAKER_01Uh it would have been, you know, I I wish we had records of that. I in fact, I kind of have a hope, and I have no there's no ground for this hope. But I'm I'm kind of hoping that when you get to heaven, you can actually like you know, watch the video of Jesus the carpenter. I'm I'm somewhat serious. I mean, what maybe because you wouldn't you love to see him, whether it's you know, working with the wood or working with the people, I'd love to ask him, did you ever hire anybody who didn't work out and you had to fire him? What did you do? You know, they I just think it'd be really amazing. I don't know we're gonna get that or not. But in the meanwhile, I think there's just incredible affirmation for the kind of work that most people are doing when you think when when God came and was with us on this earth, God did that sort of thing. That's pretty amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is amazing. Mark, tell us more about the Dupree Center and and what's going on there and how people can get involved.
SPEAKER_01Well, you mentioned earlier the the center is named after Max Depree, who actually his dad was the founder of Herman Miller. Max was the CEO and president for a while. Uh, and and Max was an amazing leader. Many of your of our listeners will have read some of one or more of his books, especially the book Leadership is an Art, that he wrote like 40 years ago, and it still sells a lot. It's it's because it's an amazing book. Max was um anyway, uh the Depree Center was founded not by Max, but in his honor by his friend. And it was really meant to be a place that encouraged Christians in, especially in business and context and in the marketplace, in their leadership and their work. And so that's what the Depree Center has been focusing on for now. Almost uh we're about 25 years old. Uh but a lot going on these days. Um, I was the executive director of the Depree Center. Now, a person I had hired earlier is now the executive director, Michaela O'Donnell. She's got a great book out on Make Work Matter, uh, which if you haven't read that, I'd I'd encourage you to check it out. Uh Michaela is is herself a business person. So she has her PhD in practical theology from Fuller, but she also, she and her husband have a business, a marketing and branding and uh a communications business. And so she kind of gets all of that. We're doing a whole lot of different things, but what we're what we focus on is what we call the the inner life of the leader. So, for example, there are there are places that will do seminars on like how to do better things as a leader, as a boss or a business person. Great things, but our focus is more on what's going on inside of you. What is God doing in you? What does it mean to connect your faith to your work and and your your you know to connect your faith to all of life? And so we do things like you mentioned the Life for Leaders devotions that we we publish. Those are free. Anybody can sign up and they can get them in their inbox every morning. Uh, we do um different kinds of cohorts pulling people together to help them. For example, we have a cohort called Road Ahead. It's really meant for people in kind of seasons of vocational transition where they're not sure what's coming next, and they're wondering what is God say to saying to me here, and so we pull people together and bring them through a cohort experience. We're just getting ready to release some really exciting things that we have done. We did a good chunk of research on mentoring, and that mentoring material is just on the verge of being released. The other thing that we're just getting ready to uh to put out is something I've been working on a lot, uh, is uh there's a video course called Flourishing in the Third Third of Life. This is really for business and marketplace people as they transition into the latter part of life and retirement or partial retirement. But what does it mean to flourish as one of God's disciples in this season of life? And so we're really trying to address the broad needs and concerns of people in the marketplace, but especially focusing on what's going on inside of you, your personal growth, your relationship with God, expressing that relationship with God in your work. And uh so we're focusing in different places. And I've I haven't mentioned everything, but that's probably a good summary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and if people want to learn more about uh depre.org, d-e-p-r-e-e dot or g depre.org. We got a website, of course, and you can kind of see all the different kinds of things we're doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And a lot of your time is invested in the Life for Leaders blog. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Life for Leaders, it's it's a daily devotional. I mean, it does show up on our website as a blog, a devotional blog, but mostly we send that out to about 9,000 plus people every morning. And uh yeah, it's I've been writing these devotions for a long time. And basically it's taking a portion of scripture, saying, well, what is this, what is this scripture about? And then how does it connect into our lives? And especially I I will touch uh people's life and leadership and their work. It's not only that, because not every passage of scripture uh goes that way, but it's really trying to help people live in the fullness of faith and discipleship in every part of life, and for so many people, a big part of their life is their work, their business, their leadership. And so that's what Life for Leaders is all about. And you know, if anybody's interested, they can they can check it out on the website, and then you can sign up and it's a it's a free service. We're happy to send that out um to folk every morning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So besides going to depree.org, which we definitely want people to do, um, also subscribe to that Life for Leaders blog. Um, what's one action you'd want people to take as a result of what they've heard today, Mark?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, we had talked earlier, Darren, about just somebody asking the question. What would it mean for my work to glorify God? Now, I realize, I'm sure, you got many of our listeners who have been, they've been working at that for a long time. And that's not a new question for them. So for them, I'd say, you know, keep on working it, but especially if you haven't done so yet, find somebody else to work with. It could be your small group, you're in a men's group or women's group, or, you know, whatever. It could be a partner, it could be a business partner, it could be a friend. Uh and this would be true whether folk have been working at this for a long time or it's pretty new. I find that one of the things that is so important in life in matters of faith and discipleship and living it out, is to find somebody who can be kind of a partner in the journey, you know, somebody that you can ask hard questions of and with, someone's gonna ask you hard questions. So, you know, and and I I have I have a couple of those in my life. One is a friend that I've basically been friends for 40 years, and you know, he's the one who can ask me hard questions about my life. He's the one, actually, when it has come to major vocational transitions in my life, every time he was the one who saw it coming before I did. And so I, you know, so again, I just want to encourage people in this to work on the question: what does it mean for me to live my whole life? What does it mean to do everything in word and deed, everything in the name of the Lord Jesus? And but I'm specifically encouraging somebody to find somebody else, find another brother or sister in Christ with whom, or it could be a larger group, but at least one other person with whom you can really start asking these questions and working on this stuff together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's great advice. Um, Mark, thank you so much for taking the time out for our listeners uh today. Um appreciate all the great work that you're doing through the the pre-center and beyond, and um and and mostly just the work you're doing for the kingdom. We really appreciate you, brother.
SPEAKER_01Well, both ways, Darren. Thanks for your work and thanks for inviting me on. And really good to have this conversation.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.