Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is the show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Bob Hassan. Bob is the founder and CEO of HPCI, a painting subcontractor, which he founded in 1978. For over 30 years, he's been active as a consultant and board member for churches, ministries, nonprofits, and school boards. His latest book is Shortcuts: The Proven Path to Purpose, Excellence, and Calling. And he's also authored Business of Honor with Danny Silk and Wired to Hear with Sean Bowles. Bob currently co-hosts the Exploring the Marketplace podcast with Sean Bowles, which is in the top 100 of all Christian podcasts weekly. He's been married now for 34 years to his wife Lauren as of last week, 34 years. Congratulations, Bob.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And they have four children and two grandchildren. Bob, it's so good to reconnect with you. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_03Oh, thanks, Darren. I'm honored to be here. So glad to be with you.
SPEAKER_02When did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work and business? Because I know that he is very involved in your work and business today, but might not have always been that way. When what was that transition point for you?
SPEAKER_03It's so interesting. In 1977, I graduated from high school. In 1978, uh the Lord found me on Easter Sunday. And somewhere after that, um I stopped going to college and um started a small painting business in the back of my 64 uh Volkswagen bug. And I had surfboard racks on the top that I could put a ladder on and uh you know put some paint some paint in the back and drove around and painted people's bathrooms and houses and and and so kind of the confluence of events with uh finding the Lord and then starting a business, uh I it it all blended into one. And and I as a young person recognized in the gospels that you know Jesus sent his disciples out two by two. And you know, as I was working alone, I thought, this isn't this isn't very fun. I, you know, if Jesus sent people out two by two, I think I'm gonna find somebody to work with me, and and I did. And and I'm painting this picture right now to say that I didn't never compartmentalize my faith and my business. It all all was one, it all happened around the same time. And you know, I I recognized at a young age that um if if I was gonna follow Jesus, I was gonna follow him with you know my entire life, uh, my my and my family and that I didn't have yet, and and my you know, my church life and my my little business life.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's really insightful about the two by two. Um, because I think a lot of times the the council regarding partnerships, I think people immediately kind of go to the negative side of that and you know, don't be unequally yoked with somebody that's going in a different direction than you are spiritually, or you know, even just with their vision for the company, um, can create a lot of a lot of tension. Not that I'm sure there wasn't tension with you and and your business partner, but um what um how did you navigate those any of those challenges in a partnership? Is it is it still uh structured like that?
SPEAKER_03Or oh no, no, this was I I you know I brought a young man. I was I was uh 19, you know, and and I brought a young man on who was going to college and said, Hey, do you want to be my partner? And uh I led him to the Lord. Do you want to be my partner? And he said, No, why would I want to be a I'm going to college? Why would I want to be a painter? And so, you know, the two by two thing ended up like I would hire, I would hire somebody to work with me. And then, you know, as I got busier, I I needed another crew, so I would hire two other people and to to go out with this two by two type thing. And um this young man that I'm talking about stayed stayed with me, working with me for almost 20 years. Um, and and then he moved on to a different uh to to a different industry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow. So you really just this was intuitive for you that God just wanted to be involved in your business from uh from day one. You didn't feel like you needed to go off and go to seminary or something like that and and start planting churches to actually do something for God. You really sense you could do that right there in the business world.
SPEAKER_03I realized being an employer that you ended up having an amount of authority over people because what you're doing is you're you're providing them a paycheck, you're raising them a quality of life. And so what I what I know now that I didn't know then is that I was bent towards the father. And for me, being bent towards the father, then people who uh came in contact with me in my business, whether they're employees, vendors, uh, or or professional partners, they experienced uh they experienced the father because that I was bent that way towards him, leaning towards him. And so they they would experience um kind of the character of the father through me.
SPEAKER_02And can you give us kind of a an idea of the scope of your company? Because this is not kind of your small kind of local painting company, but you you're doing one of the probably the largest, or if not one of the largest um commercial painting companies in the country, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, um it it's uh the way I like to say is that we started in the Volkswagen bug in in the late 70s, and now we're a mature company, which means that uh you know, we're doing the top half a percent size jobs um, you know, in the country. And uh and and we primarily are on the west coast, but uh our our biggest job to date, and probably the thing that I'm most proud of, is we we painted um the LA Rams new SoFi stadium that everybody saw in the Super Bowl last year. So we we were part of that construction team that got that done. And it was uh it was an amazingly complex, you know, five-year project. And um there was you know hundreds of hundreds of men working on that job alone. So it it really is a business that's based on uh having a strong balance sheet in order to be able to get the bonding to qualify to do uh jobs that are that size. That job ended up the total job was almost six billion dollars construction uh for for Mr. Cronke, who's the owner of uh owner of the Rams.
SPEAKER_02Wow. My goodness. So how many employees are you working with currently?
SPEAKER_03Um it depends on our workload. It goes from you know hundreds to thousands and everywhere in between, depending on how many jobs we have at a uh current time. Uh there's ebbs and flows. Uh so you know, we have a robust uh org chart and um an office that you know that that takes care of our field where most of our employees are.
SPEAKER_02Bob, what's one of your favorite Bible verses or passages related to business and entrepreneurship?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm going to make it that way, but it's Proverbs 3, 5, and 6. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not into your understanding, acknowledge him in all your ways, and he'll direct your paths. And one of the things that as a as a business owner that I have a problem with is trying to control things. I'm always trying to control things, and um, you know, I get myself in trouble. And so I come back time and time and time again, year after year, decade after decade, back to the scripture. And what I've learned to do is actually um I is actually plug in that whatever issue I'm worried about. Trust in the Lord in all your ways. Instead of that, I say, trust in the Lord with cash flow, you know, this week or this month. And and I I actually appropriate the thing that I'm the the issue that I'm the most uh worried about or anxious about into this scripture. And it's been a tool that that I've used that has helped give me peace to you know calm the anxiety down. We we we all know the Philippians verse about the peace that passes all understanding, and and by kind of appropriating Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, it helps me to get to that peace that passes all understanding place.
SPEAKER_02Can you give us uh an example, maybe a story, testimony of when you were in the middle of a difficult decision or even a kind of ordinary decision, uh, but you instead of weaning on your own understanding, you acknowledged him in that particular instance.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I have a really dramatic story. And this is after 45 years, that this is sort of a standalone. God did this amazing thing. We had just finished a major project at Los Angeles World Airports, uh, one of their new terminals, and it was a big job, and it was an eight-year job. And after after there was we were in a dispute, and there were millions and millions of dollars uh that were that were at stake. And so uh on a on a Wednesday, we had a meeting in Los Angeles to go up in front of the construction managers, the contractors, lawyers, and mediators to try to get this thing done. The reason I know it was a Wednesday is because uh on Tuesday night we had a Bible study at our house, and I was I was um super preoccupied. And my wife came in and said, What are you leading the Bible study on tonight? And I said, What? I'm like, I just got home from work, I'm preoccupied. And she just smiled and left. And so, okay, now I'm I have to find a topic. So I played Bible roulette and ended up in Chronicles and the story of when Jehosaphat was being attacked by the armies. And and uh and he he he essentially didn't know what to do, so he marshaled his army and sent the worship team out first to sing instead of the army. And and uh what happened is the these these attacking forces they got confused and they attacked each other. And then you know, the the end of the story is is the the Israelites went down and got all the plunder from these armies. So as I thought about that, the Lord, the Lord just said to me, um, you know, rather than drive up with your team, I want you to, I want you to to meet them halfway, and I want you to worship me, you know, for an hour and a half. So I got in the car at you know, four in the morning, drove up and met my team halfway there. And as I was worshiping the Lord, um, he said to me, When you get into this meeting, you are not to talk. And which I am the founder of this company. I am really everyone in this company are detailed people, and I'm the one who negotiates, mediates. And I was like, Lord, that's that's not gonna work. It's just not gonna work. Because normally in a mediation like this, you sit and you lay out your case for the first half an hour. So when I picked up my team who aren't all believers, uh, we got in the car and they started meeting prep. And I said, Hey, and I told them the story I just told you. I said, I'm not gonna talk. And they said, they start arguing, like, that's not gonna work. We're, you know, there's no way we can be successful. Well, sure enough, we got into this meeting, and there was, I don't know, 30, 30 people there in this meeting around this big conference room table. And when we sat down, uh, a man from the construction manager who I did not know said, Um, I want to know the details of this. And so for two hours, my team went back and forth with their team and talking about details. And then this man said, he was done. He said, Bob, come with me. And we left the meeting. We walked back to his office, and he he was uh he had a computer in front of him, and then he had a calculator to the side of him, and I was sitting in front of him, and so he started on the calculator, and and he said, you know, I'm gonna offer you this. And he threw a number out, and I had a pad of paper, and I was like, huh. So I'm not supposed to talk. So I just started writing. And out of the corner of his eye, he saw me writing. And then I out of the corner of my eye, so I'm going back to the calculator and start with the calculator again. And he said, and he said to me, This is my final offer. And he raised the raised the number. And so, being the good Jewish businessman that I am, I said, Well, if it worked once, I might as well write again. And I I who knows, I might have been writing in tongues. I don't know what I was writing. But uh he looked at me again and he went back to his calculator and he said, and he said, This is my final offer. And he looked at me, and it was more money than we thought we were going to come out. So I just put my hand out and shook his hand, and he said, Come with me. So we went back to our teams and he said, Okay, we got the deal done. You guys do this, this, and this and get them paid. And I need you guys out of here because I have another meeting. And so we walked out, and I was like, Oh my gosh, what just happened? Well, what happened is I didn't say a word. And it's a really cool business story about trusting in God, lean noting into your own understanding. But once I got back with we are my team celebrated, once I got back to my car and I was alone, the Lord said to me, You know, Bob, that's a really cool business story, but I've gifted you with the ability to mediate, to negotiate, to understand people, to have discernment, to understand, to have instinct and intuition. But I just want you to know what I can do in spite of your gift. And it just, it was like it was so heartwarming to me that the Lord saw me like that, used a practical situation that was that was really a high-stakes situation to show me like this is how I've created you. Dude, I'm in control. And and it was just the most, it was just the most, I just felt so safe, you know, from the Lord.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow, I love that story. Uh so do you I mean, do you think that he thought you were angry or like why like you're you're you're this entire meeting, you're not saying a word. Um, was it just because I know like in in negotiations, when one is silent, the other person feels like they have to do all the talking, they have to kind of fill the you know, fill the empty space. And so I mean, from just uh it doesn't exactly in some sense it defies logic. Right. But it you know, by the other, on the other hand, it's it's kind of a winning strategy to not always have to like come out and defend your position, right?
SPEAKER_03I I think in the natural, you're right. It is that is a winning strategy to not negotiate against yourself, yeah. Uh uh, which which you know I've learned over the years. I've I've learned that tactic. But this wasn't it, I think, you know, in hindsight, I think he was in a hurry. I think he wanted to get this thing done. And uh so I think he thought I was thoughtful because I was spending time writing trying to figure this thing out. Um, I never did no, I never saw him again. He they flew him just in. He was a closer, they flew him just in to you know close the to try to close this job out for not only us, but other subcontractors.
SPEAKER_02Um and I love that story. Well, I know you have at least a lot of other stories that you could share. Um, maybe maybe another one for us on when you acknowledged him in all of your ways in in a particular business dealing.
SPEAKER_01Let me think. You know, I think so.
SPEAKER_03Let's talk about failure. Um in my business, um we're putting out estimates all the time in order to win work. And if we're having a good year, we win 10% of our bids, which means we have a 90% fail rate. And so what what what is what I've had to do over the years is is ask the Lord, listen, we're we're going after these jobs because we're in this industry and this is what we do. So give us the jobs, protect us, give us the jobs that will be uh good for us and protect us against things that are bad. And that's allowed me, as when we lose jobs, or uh just recently we lost three major projects that we had a 98% win rate on on our pipeline report. And and we lost these three jobs uh that we were really banking on. And and so when that kind of thing happens, uh this failure that comes through is you ask why. Uh, and and I I've learned that this is the Lord protecting me for whatever reason, that he has something better. And and so it caused me and my team to you know look at our pipeline report and you know begin to cultivate relationships that we've had over the decades that since everybody's been busy for so long have kind of gone by the wayside. And uh, and I think I think dealing with failure in business is a very real thing. Uh and you know, short of bankruptcy, I think every business, every service business, every professional business is going to deal with failure. And it's it's how we come back to the Lord, you know, in in these areas of failure that I think define us. And and there's extraneous things like, for example, the you know, there's recession at the end of the 90s. We we remember, we remember the recession in 2008 and 9 and 10. And of course, we remember the pandemic that was a world health and economic uh uh upset. So there's been all this disruption, and those types of events are things that we can't control. Uh we we try to control our business to the best of our ability, but sometimes within the world, things happen that that we have to come back to the Lord and say, you know, hey, I'm you're my partner in this, Lord. I need your help. I don't know how to get out of this, you know, direct my path.
SPEAKER_02Bob, what does it take to please God in business? Um you I think a lot of the the conversation around Christianity and business kind of revolves around the idea that work matters to God, uh, that the work that you do in business matters to God. I'm I'm more interested, I I I recognize that I'm more interested in knowing what are the specific practical ways that I can do business in such a way that is pleasing to God. Um, you obviously shared kind of the general guidance of acknowledging him in all of your ways and letting him direct your paths. Um, what else comes to mind in terms of what does it take to please God in business?
SPEAKER_01I think character.
SPEAKER_03Um and and I I I it reminds me of the scripture, you know, let your light shine before us. And and so we are a people of character. We we we serve uh we serve Jesus, um, we serve a loving father. And so how do we set ourselves apart? And we set ourselves apart with character. And and and from an employee standpoint, what does that mean? Whether you're whether you're in an entry-level position or whether you're in the C-suites, how does your character shine before you? Well, you show up early, you stay late. When you complete a task, you ask your you ask your uh employer or your supervisor or your director, hey, listen, I'm I'm I'm finished with my work. Do you have anything else for me? Uh you go to other employees that you're working with and say, Hey, do you need any help on a task? Right there. You know, that Character is is is setting you up to be in the 1% uh of all people. We're we're in the midst of this uh phenomenon called the great resignation, where people have have left the workforce. They're saying over 11 million people. But even more, in May, in the Wall Street Journal, uh there's a there's an article called The Ghosting of Uh The Ghosting of New Jobs. And what's happening right now that nobody's seeing is people are interviewing for jobs, accepting jobs, and then not showing up for the jobs. They're ghosting the jobs, and and people are seeing it, uh, employers are seeing this nationwide and industry-wide. So, you know, why is this happening? I think why is this happening? Well, what's happened to the character of people? We they've gotten used to uh increased unemployment benefits through the pandemic. Uh, people have decided, you know, maybe I'll retire, maybe I don't need to go back to work, maybe I'll start another industry. But what has happened to the character of people? And then I look into the business realm and say, um, are businesses working with an honor and character? And, you know, for example, Enron. Enron was was a company that uh ended up spectacularly going bankrupt and taking Arthur Anderson, uh a huge accounting firm with it. 300,000 people lost their jobs in both companies because the the the the people in the top of Enron uh were trying to have the company that was the most valuable in the world. And they did whatever it took for that to happen. And they ended up having no character. So so how do we use character in business? How do we honor uh our commitments? How do our is our yes, our yes, and our no our no? And and I think that um if we're going to be believers in business, then then our character needs to shine before us. And and does that mean we make mistakes? Well, we don't make mistakes, it means we make mistakes, but we're willing to apologize and try to do the right thing. And doing the right thing is something that um is a lost art right now in the division and dissension um that where we are in this even century. I'm not even gonna talk about since since the pandemic.
SPEAKER_01How do you cultivate that kind of character in your company?
SPEAKER_03I'm really vulnerable and transparent with my executive team, with the people that report to me, the people that uh and the vendors and professional people that I'm with. Um I'm I'm looking for uh to be, hey, listen, I made a mistake, you know, I thought this way and I was wrong, or I did this and I was wrong. I'm I'm I'm looking to you know do the right thing by by having my my executive team that reports to me say, hey Bob, that's not right. You know, that that is not you know what the values are. And we we have a weekly operations meeting where you know we're around the table and we're discussing you know uh hard issues. And and so what I've tried to do is create an environment and a culture here where everybody gets to show up powerfully. As a matter of fact, being showing up powerfully is required at the table. I didn't hire you to be quiet, I didn't hire you not to talk to me about your opinions. So, in order to have a culture like that, then it can't be it can't be based on fear. And first John 4.18, love can't coexist with fear because fear has to do with punishment. So if people are around the table and they're afraid to talk about their ideas uh or things that we've never done before, that they're gonna get punished, they're not they're not going to share. So we we have a collaborative environment here where we're trying to get an end result through collaboration, not through one person's decision. Now, of course, in any organization, someone has to make the final decision. But you know, my goal always is uh for it to be a collaborative decision. And that comes with vulnerability and transparency and the ability to for people to tell me I'm wrong, and me to tell other people, hey, look, I just don't think that's part of our company value system.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. As a as both a practitioner and uh a thought leader, you're really at the a key voice in the faith and work movement with, I mean, with the writing that you're doing, the podcasting that you're doing, and and obviously running a extraordinarily successful business. Um, what do you see is missing most from from most conversations about Christianity and business?
SPEAKER_03Karen, I'd be interested to see what you think about that. I'll tell you what I think. I think it's the integration of our beliefs into our daily lives. I think, uh, I think people are compartmentalized. I remember years ago, um, uh, this is how long, this is how many years ago this was. I was in a men's group, and uh there was a guy who sold pagers. He was a pager salesman. And so that kind of dates what I'm talking about. And he was the number one pager salesman, and this is what he said to our group. He said, When I walk into the office, I hang my Christian hat on the door outside the office, and I go in there and I do whatever it takes. I climb over other people's backs, I do whatever it takes to be the number one salesman, I'm the number one salesman. And I remember sitting back thinking, that is everything that is an antithesis to what the Lord's saying. He's saying, be at peace, be humble, be a peacemaker, work with others. And and so, so you know, that statement, you know, set me up for you know all these years later to watch and see uh believers who are in business who adopt that attitude. And so there's this there's this compartmentalization between what happens on Sunday and what happens on Monday through Saturday. And I think that if uh I think that if uh believers in business could get rid of that compartmentalization, then honor and culture and all the different things that that the Lord's calling us to do would would flourish. What do you what do you think the answer to that question is?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you're right. Um I mean, just maybe to to say it with a little bit differently, um it well, it's what you said before, acknowledging him in all of your ways, not just in your giving or in your Bible reading or in your church attendance, but in your accounting and your HR practices and your risk management and um all every aspect of your of your business. And I think it starts with what I really see as foundational principle for honoring God in business, and that's acknowledging that Jesus is on the receiving end of everything that you do in business. So in every conversation, every interaction, every transaction, Jesus is on the receiving end. So it's it's not you can't just, you know, hang your your Christian hat at the door because you can, but even when you go into that meeting, guess who's looking right back at you? It's Jesus. You know, even if it's somebody that is not doing business in a way that's honoring to God, the way that you approach that doesn't mean that they are they are Jesus. Um, but in in some way, uh that however you you treat that person, if you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me. If you haven't done it to the least of these, you haven't done it to me. And I don't think that's just talking about the poor. Um, I mean, I there's the up and out, there's the down and out, and you know, everybody in between. And so I think that's the that's the mindset shift that I think has to happen is to recognize that the IRS agent that is reviewing your uh your tax documents, Jesus. Uh the the the person that you just hired at your company, Jesus. And Jesus, and then you start, you can't compartmentalize anymore because he's everywhere. Like he is, and this is not just like you know, like kind of abstract woo-woo thinking that you know God is everywhere, but God is everywhere, like he is he is omnipresent, he is omniscient, he knows about everything. So when we when we conduct business in a way that is dishonoring to God, we're holding him up to public shame, once again, like it talks about in in Hebrews.
SPEAKER_03So I love the thought of Jesus is on the receiving end. I love how how you frame that because it's true. If we if we recognize everyone that we're dealing with from in every interaction that we have, we're looking at the face of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01It changes everything. Absolutely. Well, this is uh it's been so good, Bob.
SPEAKER_02Um where should people go to hear more about uh what you're doing? Uh obviously bobhasson.com. Is that is that the best place for people to go? H A-S-S-O-N.com.
SPEAKER_03And then I'm I'm really active on Instagram. Um at I think it's Bob.hasson on Instagram. Just look for the guy with gray hair.
SPEAKER_02And it's very cool gray hair. I might know.
SPEAKER_03And uh, and you know, I'm you can buy the books on Amazon or or at bobhasson.com, and I think it directs you to Amazon. So um it's been it's been really cool. This new this new book shortcuts has been something that I've just been in my heart, but it's talking about work ethic. And one of the things you and I talked about last time we were together was in in Genesis 2, 7, God brings breathes life into Adam. And then in verse 15, the very next thing he says to Adam is, Go tend to the garden or go to work. And so, like right from the beginning, here's work in in God's culture, you know, all the way to all the way to uh in in John, where where Jesus says, My father and I are always working. So this is what I love about your Christianity and business and your theology and business podcast is taking the things of the Bible and making them practical for those of us who are in the business world or in the marketplace.
SPEAKER_02That's right. So Bob, thank you so much. Um why don't you leave us with one parting piece of advice?
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Well, I am bullish on American believers. I am fortunate to be uh around younger, younger believers who who have this hope for a future and energy that I'm seeing uh in spite of what you know the world uh news is saying. Um I I think I think that God's on the move. I think there's revival in the air. I think business is in a in a in a place to explode. Uh and I think people who have supernatural strategies and ideas, God's going to breathe on. I think we're in coming out of um coming out of uh the pandemic and you know, whatever inflation slash recession that we're dealing with, I think um God's about to be on the move. And I and I'm very, very excited to see what these next five, 10 years look like.
SPEAKER_02Same here. Bob, thanks for coming on to encourage us today. Uh, this has been powerful and uh always such a pleasure talking with you, brother.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much, Darren. I really, really enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode, and if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity in Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity in Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.