Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RCW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Scheer, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Bob Teedy. Bob is an accomplished leadership expert, author, and blogger who served on the leadership team of Crew, formerly known as Campus Crusade for Christ, for 50 years. Bob is a graduate of the University of South Dakota, who's amassed a following from top-tier leaders and others as a plain-speaking change agent, reminding leaders to focus on asking questions instead of feeling like they need to have all the answers. He grew up on a farm in a close-knit family and became involved at a young age in the Christian student movement that is now known as Crew, which I've been impacted by as uh um just running from God, ended up wandering into some of those crew meetings as a college student, and um and they really made an impact on me for the Lord. Uh, his new free ebook and audio book is titled Now That's a Great Question. It's available at leadingwithquestions.com. Bob, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Darren, a pleasure to be with you today.
SPEAKER_02You say that a leader who leads with questions will often be 10 times more effective than a leader who leads by telling. How's that possible?
SPEAKER_01Well, Darren, uh, I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions to illustrate this. Now, the first one's a silly question, and it begs for an answer, but I'm gonna ask the silly question. Darren, if you were in a rowboat with your whole team, we'll say they're you and nine others on your team, and you want to get that rowboat across the lake as quick as possible. There are oars for all of you. How many of them would you like to have roll with you? Uh 100%. All of them, yes. I told you it was a silly question. But now I want you to imagine that same team is gathered around your conference table. But in this question, you are a leader who thinks your job is to tell them what to do, and their job is to do it. And so, as you're sitting at a conference table, the topic on the table is how can you take advantage of this opportunity? And you want to get that opportunity proverbially across the lake as quick as possible. But if you think it your job is to tell them what to do, and their job is to do it, how many mental Rs are in the water around that table? None. Well, yours, one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just yours. But the leader who leads with questions who leans forward and says, Hey gang, here's this opportunity. What do you all think we might do to take advantage of this? Now, potentially, how many oars will be in the water? All of them, hopefully. All of them. Now, Darren, imagine in that situation. Is it possible that when you ask, and there's nine others giving their input, that you might hear an idea better than one you'd thought of?
SPEAKER_02Pretty good possibility.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not a guarantee. And of course, you're still the leader, but you're hearing all these ideas, and Sally's across the table, and Sally shares an idea, and you think, Wow, my goodness, Sally, that is brilliant! And you're thinking to yourself, that's better than anything I was thinking, and so you lean forward, say, Sally, that's brilliant. In fact, Sally, would you be willing to lead our team in executing on that idea?
SPEAKER_03Two questions. How will Sally feel?
SPEAKER_02She'll be bought in, and she'll feel like she's part of she's she's got ownership. And and how hard will she work to execute her idea? Yeah, a lot harder than if it was just my idea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, that is kind of the logic behind a leader who leads with questions, will often be five, ten times more effective because you're taking advantage of all the brain power in the room. And then, as you said, Sally shares that idea, and you empower her to go forward with that idea. I mean, she owns it, and and she doesn't want her idea now to fail. So she gives it all she has. And uh, and you not only have her mental oar in the water, you have all her oars in the water going forward.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that. Such a powerful example, the idea of the of the oars. Um, so what is the biblical basis for this? What are some of the scriptural examples you like to share?
SPEAKER_01Well, Darren, as you know, one of my books is 339 Questions Jesus Asked. Now, I don't know about you, Darren. Well, I do know about you and me. I'm guessing you like me ask a lot of questions because we don't know the answer. That's why we're asking. But think about it, Jesus never ever asked a question because he didn't know the answer. So he must have had another reason to ask.
SPEAKER_03And uh a while back, this thought came to me.
SPEAKER_01And uh I think you'd probably agree with me that the person who who has the capability to write a complicated computer program, all the code, might be the person who would know how to leverage that program the best. Because they they designed it, they created it, and they know all the bells and whistles that they built into that program. Well, of course, we celebrate Christmas as the time in which Jesus came to earth, but as students of scripture, we know that Jesus existed forever. The scriptures actually teach that Jesus was involved in creation, so he created us. He's actually the designer, he he uh did the programming, and the thought that occurred to me one day was hmm, might it be that in Jesus' communication style, where he majored on two things, he told great stories and he asked great questions, might it be that he was leveraging his design of how he wired us, actually taking advantage of the way he wired us? And uh the two thoughts that occurred to me is one, you know, Darren, when you and I hear a great story with no intention to like, hey, I need to memorize this, I need to write it down word for word and then memorize it. Stories are just sticky. We hear a story and they just stick. We could repeat that story a day later, a month later, sometimes even years later, when it comes up, we say, Oh, let me tell you a story that I once heard, and and we can almost share it verbatim. I'm guessing Jesus knew that, that stories were sticky, it's why he shared the parables. But the second thing is, I think he knew that if you wanted to change people, that asking them a question that allowed them to come up with the answer in their own brain had a higher probability of creating change than if he said, Let me tell you what you need to think. Yeah, he asked them a question that caused them to think, and that created the change.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and to me, that is the reason questions are so powerful in any context. Um one of my friends, uh Andrew Sobel, wrote, uh, telling creates resistance, asking creates relationships. Um, I think of Henry David Thoreau, who once said the greatest compliment ever paid me was when one asked me what I thought, and then attended to my answer. And you know, so when we begin to think about uh Jesus, oh my goodness, I mean, until I did the research, I I'd heard somewhere written wrote uh or saw this written somewhere that Jesus had asked over 150 questions. And uh, but when I did the research, I discovered that in the NIV version of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, when I added them all up, there's 339 questions uh Jesus asked. And uh, you know, as I said earlier, you and I asked questions because we don't know the answer. He had a different motive for asking.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh and it created relations. Now, some of his questions, I mean, they started simple. The woman at the well, will you give me a drink? Uh, you could say not a real complicated question, but it started the connection and went on there to an incredible conversation, yeah, that actually then affected her whole village.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know, it's it's so foreign to our Western way of thinking. You know, I just went to my wife uh graduated, got her master's degree um maybe about a month ago, and just looking at all of the regalia and just this hierarchy where you know, if you've got this level of credential, you got this kind of hat, and you know, you got this level, you got this kind of hat, and this color, and this, you know, this kind of hood and everything, and and just that that Greco-Roman um mindset that you know, you're just gonna sit at the feet of the guru, and you know, they're gonna pour forth their wisdom, is so different from the Hebrew model, which is much more of we're doing life together, we're we're on this journey together. Isn't that so much of why this is hard for us to understand?
SPEAKER_01There's there's a certain amount of what I call it's counterintuitive. Um, Andy Stanley has a quote. Uh, he says, the leader who refuses to listen will soon be surrounded by people who have nothing to say.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um I also, you know, uh, Darren, a confession I share from time to time. Um I think this might have been 10, 12 years ago. I was attending the Global Leadership Summit put on by the Willow Creek Association, and Liz Wiseman was scheduled to speak, and her topic was going to be multipliers. And Darren, I walked into that session thinking, man, this is gonna be great. She's gonna be talking about leaders like me. So what's not to like? Well, in that talk, she started by talking about diminishers. Well, I didn't think that applied to me, but then she began to define what diminishers do. She shared, for example, that when you bring a diminisher a problem, they solve it for you. And I thought, well, that's exactly what I do, but I thought that was a multiplier trait. And she's no, no, no, no, that's a diminisher trait. Wow. Um, because a multiplier will ask you questions to allow you to solve the problem. And and I began to see, wow, when I solve the problem, well, it's a bit like um Darren is hungry, so he comes to me and says, Do you have something to eat? And I give Darren a fish. He comes back the next day for another fish and another fish, versus Darren, let me teach you how to fish.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And the the multiplier asks questions to help the person solve their own problem. And after a while, um, they don't actually have to come. They can solve their own problems. Plus, they're going to be a leader who actually leads that same way to help others learn to lead. And so the leader who leads with questions will actually develop a group of leaders. The leader who always gives answers and thinks, what a great leader I am, will develop a group of followers. But I think the purpose of leadership is to develop more leaders. And then the second thing uh Liz Wiseman shared that day is that uh when you bring a diminisher leader an idea, a new idea, they say, Wow, Darren, that's a great idea. You know, if you also added this and this and this, it'd be really fantastic. And again, Darren, I sank a little lower in my chair and thought, well, that's exactly what I do. I mean, I love new ideas, but I love to add horsepower to them. So when Darren brings me a new idea, wow, high five, Darren, I love it. You know, if you also did this and this, thinking I'm being helpful, not enough emotional intelligence to realize over time the Darens who bring new ideas finally say to themselves, that's the last time I've ever bringing Bob a new idea. Every no matter what I bring him, it's never good enough. And uh and again, the multiplier leader says, Wow, Darren, great! Tell me more. And uh doesn't make any additional suggestions. So um I share some of this, Darren, just to say that um for most of my career I was looking back a benevolent dictator. Uh I was that guy at the table who thought my job is to tell them what to do, and their job is to do it. And not out of evil intent, it was just my only paradigm of leadership. And uh then in 2006, I came across the book called Leading with Questions by Dr. Michael Marquart. And reading that book forever changed my paradigm of leadership. I mean, filled with stories of leaders from literally around the globe who were leading with questions and sharing the questions they were using. And it was like my only question reading the book is why hasn't anyone ever shared this paradigm with me? But of course, you know, as we read the scriptures, wow, we see an example of the Lord being that incredible leader who continually led with questions.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, he didn't need to find Michael Marquardt's book.
SPEAKER_02Wow, this is so powerful. Um, I mean, I feel like though the Lord is saying to some uh spouse right now that this will save your marriage. Uh, you know, especially so you know, some husband is listening to this, can't figure out why um his wife is not just eaten up his wisdom and advice. Um, and I've been caught in this trap myself, uh, that what we're doing are we're just being diminishers of our spouses, you know, of our of our wives for those of us husbands. And, you know, what if we just led with questions, you know, instead of trying to be fix it, you know, problem solvers and patting ourselves on the back for that, you know, maybe you get paid money to do that, um, or you but but maybe you'd perform better even at work, right? This is what you're saying that this isn't just like uh, you know, in a marriage context, this is in a professional, I mean it's it's everywhere.
SPEAKER_01Well, everywhere. But you know, you went there for a moment. Um, probably another kind of confession is um the other the second half of leading with questions is if you're going to lead with questions, you then need to also listen. Don't ask a question if you're not willing to listen. But uh story with my wife is, and I'm I'm still in process, I have not arrived. But uh she will start asking a question, and I'll think I understand the question. And again, without thinking, I'll begin to blurt the solution. Well, honey, here's what you need to do. And she'll interrupt me and say, Robert, she calls me Robert. Robert, there you go again. You don't even understand my question. You're ready trying to give me a solution. Oops, guilty. And what I've learned, and I actually use this now in every context. I mean, not just with my wife, but wife, kids, work. And that is when I'm asked a question, rather than starting to answer, after you know, and first of all, listen to everything they say, but when they pause, it's like, uh honey, can you please tell me more? And uh when I speak, Darren, I share this funny little story to illustrate this point. Johnny, age seven, comes running into the house. He's seven years old, yelling at his mom, mom, mom, mom, where did I come from? And his mom has not been expecting this question, not at age seven, but collecting her thoughts just a bit, she invites Johnny in the living room where she shares all about the birds and the bees. And when she's done, she says, So, Johnny, do you now understand where you came from? And he blurts out, No, Joey said he came from California and asked me where I came from.
SPEAKER_02Oh no.
SPEAKER_01Now, at that point, do you think Johnny's mom wished she'd asked him when he came running the house, saying, Mom, mom, mom, where did I come from? That you asked him, Johnny, can you tell me more? He would have said, Joey said he came from California and asked me where I came from, and she could have said, Boy, you were born right here in Texas. And he'd have ran back out the door, Joey. I'm from Texas, and Johnny's mom could have saved the birds and the beast story for when perhaps that actually is the question several years later. Well, it's a funny story, but how many times have we thought, okay, I understand the question, and we start giving an answer and a solution. And it's so helpful to ask, can you please tell me more to make sure you actually understand the question? But then it also buys you more time to think, do they really want me to tell them what I think they ought to do? Would that be would I be a multiplier or diminisher? And uh not wanting to be a diminisher. Maybe the next question then is, well, honey, what do you think you ought to do? What would be another option? And there's nothing wrong with is there how could I help?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and place yourself in a servant. But uh asking that second question, please tell me more, has been just one of my go-to questions whenever I'm asked a question.
SPEAKER_02Wow, this is so powerful. Uh, and I'm gonna ask you this this question. You say that you can teach anyone to lead with questions in 30 seconds. I'm gonna ask you that in just a minute, but before we get into that more of that practical application, I wanted to ask you uh, so you say Jesus asked 338 questions, Paul asked 262 questions. Uh, what's the difference in their approach, would you say?
SPEAKER_01Um, I don't know if this answers the approach, but the difference between the two sets is uh, you know, the gospel writers Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were recording most of Jesus's questions are recording conversations he had with people. Now, some of the questions he asked as he gave a message, a sermon, or shared a parable, but most of them are conversations. In uh going to the scriptures, going through all the epistles that Paul wrote, plus the book of Acts, only in the book of Acts did I find questions from Paul that were part of conversations. In the book of in the epistles, what we find is you might say, teaching questions. He's writing a letter and he asks them a question, and kind of often in the next verse, he gives them his answer. And uh what I've suggested in the introduction of 262 questions, Paul the Apostle asked, is uh, I only list the questions, you don't see the answers. And uh and I suggest before you open the scripture to see how Paul answered, take a moment, and we actually on the left-hand side of the printed version, there's a note place. Take a moment and write down your answer. In fact, imagine that you're sitting across the table from the Apostle Paul and having this conversation, and he asks you a question, and uh he may share his answer in a little bit, but he just asked you, Darren, hey, what do you think about this? And he's expecting you to respond before he goes on. So take that kind of mental image and how would I answer this question from Paul? And then, yeah. You can open the scripture and see how Paul answered it, but uh kind of because one Jesus's questions capture conversation, whereas Paul's questions come out of uh uh teaching, writing the epistles. Uh, that's probably the difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. A lot less narrative than you have in the in the gospels, and particularly because Jesus um was not the one writing it down, whereas Paul was um, he was actually writing these yes, uh, these letters. Um, so well, let's let's circle back to to this question that I just asked a moment ago. Um, you share in your book, and again, everybody, the title of that book, and it's free as an ebook and an audio book titled Now That's a Great Question. Um, you say that you can teach anyone to lead with questions in 30 seconds. How?
SPEAKER_01Well, Darren, you know, whenever I'm speaking, I sense from the audience that almost everyone would like to learn to lead with questions, but they kind of imagine they're gonna have to go get a master's degree in questionology. It's kind of like, you know, like becoming a brain surgeon. It's a nice thought. I can become a brain surgeon, make lots of money, but probably never going to happen. And so when I ask the audience, who here would like to learn to lead with questions in 30 seconds? Every hand goes up. And uh I always pick then one of the audience to uh come on up. And Darren, I'm looking at the audience today. I'm picking you, Darren. Come on up. And um, and then I always say, you know, I I chose you because I just sense you have a photographic memory. And you're only gonna have to hear my four favorite questions once and you'll have them memorized. Well, they always look kind of like I don't think I have a photographic memory. And I said, Well, I think you do. Let's see if this will work. Now, before I start, I then ask, is there someone here who has a second hand on their watch that could time us to see if we're gonna get this done in 30 seconds? So, Darren, I do have that on my watch, so I'll be the timer also. Okay. But, Darren, in a moment, I'm gonna share my four favorite questions. I'm then gonna ask you if you have them memorized. If you say yes, I'm gonna have you repeat them. And so from the time I start to the time you share the fourth question is what we're gonna time. So you ready?
SPEAKER_02Should I write these down?
SPEAKER_01Nope, you just you'll have them. Okay, you ready? Ready. First question, what do you think? Second, what else? Third, what else? Fourth, what else? Darren, do you have them memorized? I think I do. Share them with us.
SPEAKER_02What do you think? What else? What else? What else?
SPEAKER_01Darren, I'm gonna have to change this to who would like to learn to lead with questions in 18 seconds. That was incredible. Now, some in the audience are always just a little bit skeptical, like Bob, you can't ask somebody what do you think, what else, what else, what else? And I say, Well, of course not in that rapid fashion. But imagine a conversation. You ask somebody, hey, what do you think about? and it's going to be some topic. And they're gonna answer. Now, at some point they will pause. And when they pause, rather than just moving on, it's more like, Wow, Darren, that's really good. What else? And and Darren, whoever is going to give you more. And when they pause again, you might say, Wow, Darren, this is so good. I've got to take notes. Please continue. What else? What I've discovered is that you actually get to their gold nugget, their very best thought, with the third or fourth question. And when I begin to understand this, I realize that in the past, even when I ask somebody, hey, what do you think about? When they paused, gave that first answer and paused, I moved on. I was much like that proverbial miner, you know, who mined for gold all their life, quit. Somebody comes along later and says he was within six inches of the gold vein. If you only ask the first question, hey, what do you think about, and then you move on, you're like that proverbial gold miner. You got to dig a little deeper. And uh another thing just about our human nature that relates here is Darren, when somebody you don't have a relationship with asks you, hey, Darren, what do you think about something? Again, instinctively, you know, we don't think this through, but instinctively we roll out that first answer. It's kind of a safe answer, and we're looking to see how they treat our answer. So, Darren, if I asked you, hey, what do you think about something? You gave me an answer. And I said, Well, Darren, that's stupid. Everyone knows that. Well, you're sorry you answered it all. I'm not going to get anything more. Plus, next time I ask you, you'll probably pass completely on giving any response. But when I say, Wow, Darren, love it. That's good. What else? You relax. He's like, Wow, this Bob guy's smarter than I thought. He appreciates what I'm sharing, and you'll give me more.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And when I say, Wow, Darren, I've got to take notes. Now you're completely relaxed and you're giving me your very best thought. And remember back here, the context was learning to lead with questions in 30 seconds. So if you've been a leader who only leads by telling, you'd be like I used to be. Sit at that table and think your job is to tell them what to do. If you'll enter that next meeting, either one-on-one with a staff member or with your staff around the conference table, and whatever the topic is, you simply say, Gang, what do you think we might do about whatever it is? And then you listen. And when they pause, you say, Wow, thanks. Well, what else? And when they pause, wow, Darren, this is good. I'm taking notes now. What else? You will have moved from being a leader who leads with leads by telling to lead leading with questions. Darren, I think I shared this with you. Well, you mentioned I graduated from the University of South Dakota. I'm a farm boy from South Dakota. You got to put the fruit on the low-hanging branches for me to reach them. And what I love about leading with questions is so many of the best questions are so simple. They're not long complicated. They really are as simple as Darren. What do you think about what else? Yeah. And what else? And what else?
SPEAKER_02That's so good. So let's is there a um is there a particular ratio? Because it at some point as a leader, you have to share what you think, right? So it's it's not just uh because people they they do need to know what you think and that you do have some ideas. Um is there a ratio that comes to mind, or am I asking the wrong question?
SPEAKER_01No, I think that's a very fair question. Um Darren, my personal goal in conversations is uh, you know, it depends. If if I'm coaching somebody, uh I want them to talk 80% and me 20%. Uh if it's more like a conversation, uh I'm really aiming that they talk 60% and I talk 40%. And and certainly there are times, yes, we we share our opinions, our perspective, but I don't want to lead with my perspective. And and often uh Darren, I I also share, I think this is in one of the books. Uh, if you'd like somebody to ask you a question, how can you get them to ask you? How can you get somebody to ask you the question you want them to ask you? Any ideas?
SPEAKER_02How can you get them to well ask them the question?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We we play ping pong with questions frequently. It's not guaranteed, but yeah, in the morning I see you, say, Darren, how are you? How do you generally respond? Uh I'm fine. And how are you? Yeah, how are you? Darren, if you and I were having coffee together, and I say, Hey, Darren, where do your wife like to go eat when you go out to eat? You're gonna answer. But what will you likely ask me then?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, where do you like to go?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And um, and so as a leader, often if you ask others, hey, what do you think we ought to do about, they answer, and frequently they'll ping pong that back. Again, it's not an absolute guarantee, but high probability. Well, Bob, what do you think? Yeah, and uh, well, first I appreciated your answer. I'm I'm considering that. Uh, it's not like I could let me jump in and add to the conversation here, but it's not like okay, I'm giving you the right answer now. Uh, but here's here's what I think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh you go back and forth. But I want to lead, I seek to lead with questions and then respond to their question back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that's where the leadership comes in because you are leading the conversation based on the questions that are asked. I mean, that really forms the framework for where that conversation is gonna go and what you're gonna accomplish through that conversation.
SPEAKER_01Exactly right, Darren. Leading with questions doesn't mean you are um you have no ideas, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that you're advocate, you're actually controlling the direction. Um, you know, Darren, if I say to you, hey, what's your favorite pro football team? Suddenly you're thinking pro-football team. If I say, hey, Darren, in the uh NBA, who's your team? Again, suddenly you're thinking about that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um, so wherever I focus the question, suddenly you are thinking, and uh, Darren, I'm such a simple man, but this thought came to me one day. Um Darren, I'll ask it this way. I'll go around the barn on it. Have you learned the fine art of looking like you're paying attention when somebody talks on and on and on, when in fact your mind may actually be a thousand miles away, but you're still looking like you're paying attention? Sure. All of us have. But let's just say your mind is a thousand miles away, and I say, Hey, Darren, can I ask you a question? Where does your mind now focus? Yeah, you're locked in. Locked in. And I say, Hey, Darren, and I ask a question, and for the amount of time it took for you to hear the question, understand it, and come up with an answer, I actually had 100% of the computing power of your brain.
SPEAKER_03Back to a thousand miles away.
SPEAKER_01If I want to get you back, Darren, I have another question for you.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Bob, this is so helpful. Um, I've I've taken, I don't often take uh a whole lot of notes uh in these conversations. On this particular one, I did. Um, thank you for sharing your wisdom and expertise with us today. Um, what would uh how can people get involved with what you're doing? Obviously, we want people to go to leadingwithquestions.com. They can get uh this book now. That's a great question. Anything else you want to say about how people can connect?
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I invite all listeners to uh subscribe to my blog. It's subscribing is free. Go to leading withquestions.com, uh cursor down to the bottom right, enter your email, and you will join leaders from 190 some countries who are committed to increasing their leadership effectiveness. Every Monday and Thursday into your inbox will come what I call turnkey ready questions wrapped in stories and illustrations, but questions that you can immediately turn around to ask colleagues or staff or clients, prospects, friends, or family. And uh, so I invite you to subscribe. And when you go to leadingwithquestions.com, up at the top you're gonna see the words books. And if you click on there, it'll give you access to all five of my books. They're also available in multiple languages. So if your first language is other than English, you may find the book in your language, or if you have friends whose first language is Spanish or Portuguese or Polish or Chinese or Albanian or French. I think those are the ones presently available. And again, Darren, as you know, everything I do on social media is free. And uh if you go to the ebooks, there's not a sales pitch. I'm not selling something in the ebook. It gener it genuinely is all free. My excitement. Well, in fact, let me tell you the payback I'm looking for. You're familiar with the MasterCard commercial where they, you know, add up the dollars, and then they say, but actually the response is priceless. Yeah, and whenever I get a an email or text or somebody shares, meets me and shares verbally, that leading with questions has changed their leadership, increased their effectiveness, those are the priceless responses or payback that I'm looking for.
SPEAKER_02Wow. What do you think? What else? What else? What else? There you go, Darren. You got it nailed. Go start, go start doing it right away with your uh with your team members, with your spouse, with your friends, um, with with the people you meet. Um, I'm gonna start doing it right away. Um, Bob, thank you so much for this. This is this is life-changing.
SPEAKER_01Well, Darren, what a pleasure to uh connect with you today. This has been lots of fun.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity and business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianity of Business dot com. Thanks for listening, and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your business.