Welcome back to the Christianity and Business Podcast, an initiative of the RTW Dunham College of Business at Houston Baptist University. I'm your host, Darren Shear, and this is a show that helps Christian business leaders to integrate biblical values into business. On this episode, we're joined by Raymond Harris. Raymond Harris is an architect, executive movie producer, and venture capitalist in God's kingdom. He is founder of one of the largest architectural firms specializing in corporate architecture. The firm was ranked as the number two retail design firm in America for three years. And if you've been inside a Walmart, you've been inside one of the buildings his firm designed. Raymond graduated first in his class from the University of Oklahoma and was selected as the outstanding senior and outstanding alumnus in the College of Architecture. He serves on numerous corporate and not-for-profit boards and is extensively involved in international sustainable community development projects in Africa and Asia. He's authored The Heart of Business and Business by Design. And he's got a forthcoming book that he's going to tell us about as well. He's also an executive producer for numerous movies distributed by Sony Pictures and Lionsgate Entertainment, including I Can Only Imagine, which is an amazing film that I've personally seen, the number one independent film in 2018. He's hiked all of the continental U.S. national parks and served as Boy Scout Scoutmaster for 13 years. He and his wife have four adult children, their spouses, and 10 grandchildren. Raymond, I don't usually um go into everyone's bio quite so extensively, but it's so fascinating that I just I had to mention so many of those things. What a um what a life, a lot of a lot of great accomplishments, and we're excited to have you on the show today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. My wife would say I have too many side hustles.
SPEAKER_02When did you first realize God wanted to be involved in your work and business?
SPEAKER_01I think um I realized that when I was actually in college, believe it or not, when I was a young man, um I was told uh by people that were mentoring me that there were really two options. One was to go to seminary, or two uh to go uh on staff with a Christian organization. And I didn't want to do either one. I really wanted to be a professional. So it was at that time that my wife and I chose to um stay and go to graduate school. And during graduate school, I realized how important it was to learn, understand, and apply God's principles uh if I wanted to be successful. I was already a Christian in college, but it became important to be successful. I would have to follow God's design and how he designed business. And so I just started um asking God to show me biblical principles and give me wisdom.
SPEAKER_02Hmm. And so this was in college, and then you started your your firm uh designing pretty much all the Walmarts in the country, right? At that point.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I would like to claim that I didn't do all of them, but uh I was 27 when I started our firm, uh, which is quite young for an architect. Usually you apprentice for a little bit longer than that. Uh but I I started the firm at 27. At 28, I was able to actually procure Walmart as a client. Uh, and that's a whole nother story. But uh it was at that time that I began to to work for what at that time was not a large retailer. It was it was a serious client, but they were not the mammoth client they are and the biggest biggest real retailer in America today. So it started out slow doing small projects for them and began to grow. And over a over a 35-year period, uh our firm had done about 8,000 uh projects for Walmart. Uh there, some of them were remodels, some of them were the new stores. We did almost all the SAMS that are out there, and a great, a great amount of their work over that period of time.
SPEAKER_02And what's your favorite Bible verse or passage related to business?
SPEAKER_01I I think for me, uh it was really important to understand that one that's faithful in a little will be faithful in much. And I applied that principle to get Walmart as a as a client, believe it or not. When I was first approached by a contractor to do a small project back in 1984, he said, Hey, I've got a small project, would you help me with it? He says, It's just a small addition to a retail store. And so I took it and I got the project because it was what I would call a throwaway project from another firm. They didn't want to do it. So they said, Hey, Raymond Harris might be interested, and I did it. I did a good job, I was faithful in doing a good job, and the client noticed, and that client just happened to be Walmart, and that's how I got my first project with them. Um, and working hard with this contractor, uh, we did a numerous other projects for Walmart, and Walmart finally took notice and said, Hey, why don't you come up and talk to us about doing a big volume of work for us? And so that's how that that started. So that verse to me uh has always been important since uh I applied it in 1984 to get one of my big clients. I also like uh the verse in Luke that says, But the one who does not know, everyone to whom much is given, much will be required, and from much to whom they entrusted, much will be demanded. And I apply that to mean in our stewardship. If God gives us things to steward, he'll require an accounting of how we take care of them. So those are the two verses I use in business all the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What what are some specific ways that that you applied either of those? Um, obviously, you did a great job that that was noticed. Um, what were some of the things that maybe um weren't noticed that uh really kind of helped to help you to produce such high quality work?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I always tried to um do things uh well whether someone was looking or not. So I would always try to um give my clients a little more than what they asked for, um, to do the things that no one else wants to do, and uh to do quality work uh no matter what the project was. So even if it was a a small uh project or a small um task, I would try to do it as well as possible, whether someone was looking or not. Again, trying to be faithful in the little stuff. I I I realized that being faithful um would drive a loyalty from the people I worked with. So to me, um that was a principle that God seemed to show me that that um over time that this faithfulness would lead uh to more entrustment of work from others.
SPEAKER_02Do you have a particular story example of when it would have been particularly difficult to make that decision, to kind of go the extra mile when no one is looking um that that might have you might not be able to do that?
SPEAKER_01Well, there are a lot of a lot of yeah, there are a lot of instances where uh we would um uh have to work really hard as architects. We're known for staying up all night. And I remember early in my career, one of my clients said um that he wanted the project completed by Monday morning. And so um to be able to complete a project by Monday morning and have it in his hands, you would have to actually finish it Friday by five to get the project uh printed and delivered by close of business because Monday morning uh you couldn't deliver it by FedEx because Walmart was in Arkansas and we were in Dallas. So we had to work really hard. Well, we could not get the project done by Friday at five, so we worked all weekend to finish it, and we drove the project uh drawings up to Walmart in Arkansas, which was about an eight-hour drive. So we finished the project. My secretary hopped in the car and drove the drawings to them uh starting at at six in the morning, Monday morning, and got them there right at noon. And uh the client never knew that we went to that kind of effort to deliver when we said we would. So we've done that before. Um staying up all night was not unusual for us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um working hard. I don't recommend it, but you do what you have to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And you've done a deep dive into the wisdom, the really the business wisdom of Solomon and the Proverbs. Um, what's an example from the Proverbs that you've really applied in business or seen observed Solomon applying in his uh professional endeavors?
SPEAKER_01I I found that that uh Proverbs uh has a plethora of wisdom that we can uh apply. Um I I find the number one uh principle in Proverbs is to work hard, to be diligent and hardworking. Uh it seems like good will come of that. I uh also uh find that um being faithful is very important. Uh faithfulness is a very important uh part of Proverbs. I also discovered there are treasures inside of uh Proverbs that tells us if we do certain things um that there'll be treasures later in heaven. And um wisdom is one of those treasures, and so we should seek wisdom and uh God will guide us. So I I found that Proverbs uh was a critical book for me to use to begin to uh effectively deal with people and to love them and to uh be able to count on them so to help us to be successful, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And now tell us about your your forthcoming book about rich men and God's kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I have thought a lot about um my purpose of working and why do we work? Uh well we're told that we should work, but why do we really work? Is it to gain things that we spend? And so I went through the process of thinking through why do I work and and what do I do with what I accumulate? And it was about a five-year process of thinking through how do I know my treasures are in heaven? Why do I work? And what do I do with things I accumulate? And it drove me to um to study um the Bible and look at it from the standpoint of what is a rich man to do? And we say, well, we're not rich. Well, we all are rich because God has given us giftedness uh to use in his kingdom, and it doesn't mean we have to be financially wealthy, but that we are wealthy in the giftedness that God gives us, and we're to apply that as good stewards. And so I drove down, dove down into that to try to find out um and answer those questions. What I found was that the primary purpose for me to be in business, besides taking care of my family, is to develop profit. And what am I to do with that profit? And the best place I could find after I took care of my employees is to take care of others. And Jesus says, if you want to have your treasures in heaven, give to the poor. And so the poor to me mean those that can't take care of themselves. It's a broad range of people. It could be a widow, it could be an orphan, but it could also be the unborn, or it could be a prisoner, or it could be someone that's financially poor. So I found that the end purpose of business in God's kingdom is really to take care of those that can't take care of themselves. And that is why God has given wealth to us as a steward.
SPEAKER_02So that's powerful. Um Raymond, um what is you do a lot of mentorship for the next generation of um of leaders. What is your your what let's maybe speak to the older leaders as well as the younger leaders? What's kind of the the number one piece of advice you typically give to those two groups?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think older men uh should spend time with young guys because they have a lot of experience and hopefully wisdom to be able to share. Um, I'd like to spend time with younger men. Number one, I I enjoy the company of younger men. I don't call it mentoring, I call them my young friends. And I enjoy spending time with them because number one, they're enthusiastic. If they fall off the table, they'll bounce, they won't break, and they have a long runway in which to build a career, which I call an economic engine. So if I can encourage young men uh to build these economic engines that will take care of the kingdom, then I think uh you you um serve your purpose as an older man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And um uh what what what does that look like for you? Um how do you go about mentoring uh the next generation personally?
SPEAKER_01Well, it depends on the individual. It depends on what they have a need for and what they would like to do. I I've spent time in the mornings uh running with certain young men that um uh that I would be able to um spend time running, exercising, and then talking as we run. Other men I meet for lunch, maybe on a quarterly basis, sometimes a monthly basis. Uh some guys I spend time with um every week. Um, and that's uh that's a real privilege to do that as well. So it depends on their personality and what they want to get out of the out of the situation.
SPEAKER_02So and where should people go to uh hear more from you and learn about your books and so forth?
SPEAKER_01Well, I would uh you can all look at anything uh on um uh Amazon, you can look at um uh Barnes and Noble. Um they're out there, they're published um um by uh Nav Press as one publisher. Uh so most anywhere you can go, you can even go to Walmart and look look for the books. So they're readily available.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Did did you uh design a nice little um little in-cap for your book there in Walmart?
SPEAKER_01We'll have to uh I would like to say I'd like to say that they did, but no, it's not that popular, my friend. Uh some of the movies we've done though have been in in caps, and that's good.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, yeah. Indeed. What are some of the other movies you've done?
SPEAKER_01Well, we did the first movie, was one called October Baby. That was a movie that was very edgy. Then we did one called Mom's Night Out, which was a comedy, and that was a lot of fun. Did two football movies. The most recent one is called American Underdog, which came out at Christmas, and one called Woodlawn, which was about uh racial reconciliation. Uh, the 70s in Alabama was a really good movie about uh guy named Tony Natham.
SPEAKER_02It's excellent.
SPEAKER_01Um, we've we've done uh uh just finished a movie that will be coming out soon called The Jesus Revolution, which is really the story behind what happened in the 60s to the Jesus movement and why did it start in California and what happened after that. And it should be a good movie. Um and then we did a documentary on Christian music, which was an interesting movie called Jesus Music, which we interviewed 80 different um artists, and that was really an outstanding um project we did.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, well, I'm sure our listeners are familiar with with many of those. Um I yeah, I especially like Woodlawn. That was a fantastic movie. Uh I think it was like it might still be uh above 90% on Rotten Tomatoes.
SPEAKER_01Um a lot of ours on the on the fan side, they are, they're very high. Um, believe it or not, John and Indy Irwin, who uh the three of us founded uh Irwin Brothers Entertainment, are the um one of the only directors and writers that have gotten A plus cinema scores in uh three or more movies, which is only Spielberg is really the only other guy. So they've really done well with fan uh fan approval.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so you helped to found that then.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I helped them get started. Uh, I was the financial guy. So John and Andy were the two brothers, and I came on as a third partner, and we started Irwin Brothers Entertainment back about 12 years ago. So it's now morphed into what we call uh now is Kingdom Studios.
SPEAKER_02So yeah. Well, it's great work you're doing. Um thank you for the the wisdom you've been sharing today. What's one action you want people to take as a result of what they've heard today?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that understanding God's principles are good and and having that head knowledge, but the more important thing is to learning to apply uh these principles. And I think the the only way you can truly understand the reasoning behind and applying these principles is learning uh to how to abide in Christ. And by that mean I mean to dwell or spend time with him. Uh dwelling uh takes time, it's not quality time, it's quantity time. And when we uh when we abide in Christ, we dwell with him as someone we love. And so that's something I've learned over the last uh eight or nine years of being critical to be able to apply God's design and God's principles is to know know Jesus and to spend time with him. And so I would encourage the listeners to discipline themselves not to have a quiet time, but to simply abide with Christ. It might be in a quiet time, it just might uh it'll be a time that you think that is best for you. But I found that abiding in Christ is critical for me to be uh successful uh in his kingdom. And if I could tell a real quick story, I love telling this. I used to have an English Spraniel by the name of Norman, and Norman um could uh he was he was a big old boy. He was he could have been a D1 linebacker if he played college football. He was huge, he's about 85-pound Springer Spaniel, and he could go over, under, or through our backyard fence if he wanted to. But you know, Norman really didn't want to go through the fence, he wanted to sit at the back door and look through the glass and come inside and be with me. He always was looking through the glass, wanting to come inside. And so, in the same way, I can rely on fences and barriers and procedures and policies to keep me from sinning, or I can come inside and abide with Christ, which will eliminate those propensities of sinning. And so I always looked at Norman as an example for me to abide in Christ, is I want to come in and be with Christ as opposed to relying on procedures and policies to keep me from sinning. And so I like that story of Norman. Yeah, that's what I would say to all of our listeners.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Great parting advice, everybody. Uh WW Uh N D, what would Norman do? He would be uh he would want to go abide with the masters, so that's great, excellent wisdom. Um, and give us the name of that forthcoming book about uh Rich Men and God's kingdom again.
SPEAKER_01It it should be called Richman, How to Be Wealthy in This World and the Next. All right, and that's coming out when? We hope it'll be this fall. We don't have a date yet, so okay. It'll be this fall, hopefully. They'll be on everything Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Christian Books, uh, hopefully Walmart.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and books you can already get are the heart of business and business by design. Uh so again, Raven, thank you so much for coming on the show today and and and imparting your wisdom and experience with to our listeners.
SPEAKER_01Darren, it's a pleasure and nice to be here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if so, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave us a quick rating and review for the Christianity in Business podcast on iTunes. You can get more information about HBU Center for Christianity and Business at Christianitybusiness.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep integrating biblical values into your book.